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Saturday, January 31, 2009

All Lieutenant Colonels can relax, and I mean A.L.L.

Well, there are indications that a tacit green signal has been obtained from the PMO by the MoD for implementation of PB-4 for all Lieutenant Colonels and we may get to see the notification sooner than expected. As earlier thought, heavier pay slips may have to wait for a month or so though.

The opinion expressed on this blog here about the legal position of the ‘deputation’ clause (which was also reflected in the letter from PPOC) is likely to have been accepted in principle and officers holding appointments in organisations such as MES, NCC, AR etc have been kept within the purview of the new scales. Only those officers shall be kept outside the purview and considered on deputation who have proceeded to outside organisations out of their own will & consent and not posted as such by the defence services. Officers on deputation to PSUs form a part of this category but such officers are, as it is, drawing separate scales mostly under the IDA pattern from PSUs and hence this stipulation should not ideally hurt them financially.

As I always say, there is many-a-slip, so we’ll wait for the notification and then analyse it closely.

Readers may also like to visit these two related reports from ‘The Tribune’ :

On Pension of Generals

On upgradation of Lt Colonels


KVS said...

Very many Thanks to Maj Navadeep for all the efforts in keeping the authorities and also affected Offrs well informed. Congrats to all the Lieut Colonels both serving and pensioners. Bye for now...Lt Col (Retd) KVS Choudhary

Anonymous said...

we keep looking forward to such good news from you as always.why dont you open up the blog for non military matters also.
best wishes.

Anonymous said...

Navdeep i happenned to read the letter from ppoc and it reproduces few elements from this bolg including the reference of court judgement on deputations. We can safely assume that people at positions which matter do blog!!

Great job

Anonymous said...

Correctly speaking, the following should be taken up by service HQ during the upcoming review of military civil equivalence, and implemented with immediacy by the government:

1. Lt: JTS
2. Capt: STS
3. Major (JAG)
4. Lt. Col. (Director, GP 8700, at 15 yrs service, GP8900)
5. Col. (Jt secy, 17 yrs service, GP 10000)
6. Brig: Addl Secy Grade at 28 years service, else, GP11000)
7. Maj Gen: HAG+
8. Lt. Gen: Secys Grade
9. Gen: As at present, but upgradation to #11 on WoP.

Anonymous said...

Hi Navdeep
Great work.I feel the only issue remaining for pre 2006 is the fixation of minimum pension based on minimum of pay band or the minimum pay fixed for each rank.
Can you throw some legal light on this vexing issue based on the supreme course judgment on the Maj Gen' pension case after 5th CPC.

Anonymous said...

hi navdeep what you said is right about offrs on deputation to PSU's however we are given the choice of opting for pay scales of the PSU or the army most of us have opted for the Army payscales for which the CDAO gives us a LPC ( last pay certificate) and the PSU pays us as per that.Out here in Pawan Hans we have Brigs/Col/LtCol on deputation.SO why should only the Lt Cols be discriminated against when all the rest will get PB4 scale of pay based on their LPC's.Mandy

Anonymous said...

funny..appears only the comments of the ppl who are in awe of PB4 implementation are "allowed" to be posted..how can anything change if criticism is not taken in the right spirit..very sad

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony at 10.46

In fact, what is sad is the fact that senior service officers are using language not commensurate with their status.

Please remove the curse words from your comments and your take on the issue would definitely be posted.

I hope you understand.



Unknown said...

All these twists in the tail every time, like not giving PB-4 initially and now combatant fiasco are only created as a means to divert attention for the "PARITY ISSUE/THE GRADE PAY" and the bureaucrats are very much succeeded in that attempt which was tried by them from the very beginning of constitution of the VI pay commission. THUMPS UP to them.
Only when the service HQs level of thinking/IQ matched with that of a average BABU, we will able to get better of them


Anonymous said...

Navdeep @ 1050 AM

Ref Anonoy at 1046 AM

Wish you would moderate the chat box too !!!

Cuss words seem to be considered 'Macho' and birthright in the fauj. Can we change that ?

Anonymous said...

@ Navdeep at 10:50


the point i was trying to make is that, the whole issue of pb-4 was for party and not pay..the forces pressed on for izzat etc and now seem to be happy and content with few extra bucks being offered..so was it always for that few more rupees under the guise of parity? so how different is the forces stand vis-a-vis any union agitation..the ulterior motive has always been pay..just that to achieve that, forces seem to have come up with a strategy..start shouting that their status is being lowered etc..create an issue out of it..let the world take notice..and then govt will be forced to accede to some part of the request..get some hike in pay..and blow the trumpets as to how victory has been achieved!!! in process, not only have they lost the credibility of being a service that values honour more than anything else, they also seem to make mockery of the system and gain unfair sympathy from a non-service man..is it anyway different from the way politicians fool the ppl..everyone knows what politicians do but no one expects armed forces to follow the same path..
and from the responses to pb4 implementation, the majority seem to be happy..so there really was never an issue of parity and izzat..appears to be yet another false projection to achieve some personal gains..which may be good in the short run but so detrimental to the forces in the long run

IndianACE said...

During the past month, , I had had discussions with officers presently undergoing the dssc course and also those who are undergoing the HC course.

On both occassions I happened to raise the issue of the 6CPC and its recommendations pertaining to the armed forces.

I noted with unease that the brightest in the organisation have almost negligible knowledge about the issue and what all has happened in the past 6 months or so.

The common refrain was the busy schedule during the courses. But these are the people who shall be making the policies for all of us during the next decade and further.

I hope the authorities take some measures to educate these officers and keep them up to speed on these issues. Moreso because they will not be able to find any "pinks" or PCK on this topic when the next pay commission arrives.

Kots said...

Congrats to all brother offrs and many thanx to the author and moderator for all the efforts put in.

I agree and indeed the ignorance of bright stars is a cause of concern. These are the pers who will be in places who have to put in efforts in times to come and sure they will do their home work then and not wait for pinks/ pcks. They will not let the services down.

Anonymous said...

I wish Maj Navadeep keep the 'izzat'issue alive. Beggers being not choosers, the Forces have no choice but to accept what is given and keep the fire burning. We may succeed when we get a better Defence Minister or when our Supreme Commander develop some concern on the Forces she command or when our leaders think on the lines of First Lady of USA.There should not be any going back on grade pay. It is too bad that the new generation of Force's Leaders are disinterested in this vital issue.

Anonymous said...

Dear bloggers,
I think only half the battle is won. We must strive to get PARITY as well. I (Lt Col) am working with an Ord factory and I have seen a definite shift in the behavior of Joint GMs who incidently are in PB 4 at 13 years of service, towards our rk because of PB 3 status. So lets bash on!!!

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous :January 31, 2009 11:08 AM

First, it is difficult to address a person who is just a bystander in the crowd and likes to be anonymous for the sake of it.

Next, dear friend, whoever said that after PB4 implementation, everything is over? If you have been reading previous posts by Maj Navdeep on this blog, as well as numerous news reports, you should be able to understand that issue is far from over. You should be able to understand it unless you are Shekhar Gupta.

The particular letter from PMO had other directives also which you seem to miss conveniently. Before you start comparing Armed Forces with trade unions, you must clearly understand the nature of trade unions in India. They will halt work and cause inconvenience to all public at the drop of a convenience.

If people rejoice over getting justice, even partial, should it lead you to believe that whole thing was for a few bucks? Of course you will not understand because you have not felt backstabbing, rather stabbing in the heart in full daylight; that is what the so called civil superior force has done.

It is pathetic how the bureaucracy first conspires to hurt a national institution and then cries hoarse when justice is demanded and is fought for. Pity that we have to fight our own country to get what is due. Please remember that this battle is far from over.

Anonymous said...

Indeed, the whole issue of combatant etc. is just nonsense raised as a smokescreen to hide the fact that Lt. Cols are being placed at a grade pay far below their correct placement. At least they should be in the scale 8700, if not higher, eg 8800, considering even CPO commandants who were in a lower scale are now drawing this scale.

What is Service HQ doing? Is it not cognizant of the dangerous subversion in progress?

What does the issue of combatant or not matter? Does a Civil Accounts Service chap need to prove "ready to use calculator" status when getting his PB4?

Why have service HQ failed to take a determined stand, and ignore all this rot about Combatant/Non Combatant etc?

Anonymous said...

info of tribune is incorrect

Anonymous said...


This is only the half battle won. We must not forget that of the four core demands only one and a half have been met( Lt Col's is only half). We shouldn't rejoice at mere increase in pay. Rather we must aim to get the parity to pre-SCPC levels. We should also ensure that each and every person from the services becomes aware of what he should get and what is he being handed out by the super cunning bureaucracy. Its high time we became vocal in our rightful demands.The civilian control of the military does not mean subversion to the bureaucracy rather it means control by the political leaders in power.
This blog is an eye opener for many of us.
Navdeep, i am sure u would keep up the good job.

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,

Thanks for keeping us posted with latest developments.


havaihakim said...

Kindly read this article beautifully written and explained

Rajababu said...

I totally agree with Toms and Kaps. The izzat was never on backburner

One needs to understand the foll:

(a) first every body raised a hue and cry that services are creating an issue and are behind only money despite the service chiefs yelling over roof tops that status/parity was the sole issue. I think this was a ploy to get services on the backfoot so that they go easy on the accelerator which they actually did.

(b) Next make a mish mash of the scales and offer to the services(which are so near but yet so far). The services have no choice but to accept now cos if they dont they will be painted as selfish lot/villians to the entire populace of the country.

(c) make an issue inside PB4 such as combatants/non combatants and divert attention as the present day govt is doing to save face(pak bashing).

(d) delay the issue so that every body becomes tired of speaking/fighting for the cause including the offrs/media.

(e) then the govt crubles and the issue is kept under wraps till the next govt is sworn in. the next govt has to start all over again.

So finally its a vicious circle that never ends like the V CPC fiasco(anamolies). Even though the service HQs are aware of the battle tactics of babus they can do little as it would invite the wrath of babus like in the case of Adm V Bhagawat.

The solution to the problem is service unity and a single minded focus to form our own associations like tha IAS/IPS to fight our cause.

Anonymous said...

@TOMS, Gunner@2:19 PM and Anony @ 5:49 PM

Good that you guys are not loosing sight of the Aim. The Aim was to restore parity and that means even 8699 is not acceptable. If we accept the Pay commission in the state it is in, we have lost the Battle and the war. There is no runners up in War.

@ IndianACE about Staff College.
Let the guys who are studying do so. We can fight for them can't we and most of us have been there done that. As it is they may be very very aware but are sensible enough not to show interest while in DSSC. Any Ex-OWL will know why.

Anonymous said...

@Kaps at January 31, 2009 4:19 PM

I dont see any difference between being Kaps or Anonymous..if u indeed need a name, u can call me MN..and then address me by that :) it aint that difficult to address then.. or is it still??

have read enough and been following the drama of pb-4 ever since it has erupted..i was initially feeling sorry for armed forces thinking they are being let down and honestly felt that their izzat was at stake..

but seeing the reactions to pb-4, whether combatants or non combatants blah blah blah..it only goes to show that they guys there are only bothered about increase in pay and nothing else..

if it was really about izzat, then why accept this recommendation..refuse to take it..am sure many of the officers will not have the courage to do so as it was never about izzat..

you speak about being backstabbed etc..theres no point being so melodramatic about it..as u advised me to read navdeeps earlier posts, i would recommend the same to you..the one one doing homework..goes to show how much izzat exists within the forces..so isnt it wise to first get ones house in order..instead blaming the polity, bureaucracy, nexus between them..ah..its utter childish, reeks of escapist attitude and a holier than thou attitude..

agreed defence forces need to be paid well etc..and that the state is not looking after the forces and that their izzat is at stake..but who is to blame for it..if not the forces themselves..they have let the situation degrade..now blaming the civilian authorities is of no use..had the senior management of the forces acted with vision and had they had been clairovoyant, the present day situation would have never occured..and going by the drumbeats and all the hoopla about pb-4 coming through, there seems to be no difference.. the main issue of izzat has been conveniently forgotten and in its place arose the differentiation between combatants and non-combatants..

the reason i compared this to the trade unions is that they too fight for some ulterior motive while projecting something else..thats where the similarity ends..if forces stop doing their job, then the sympathy they deserve for a worthy cause would also be lost..hope they dont get such ideas!!!

Anonymous said...

hi! Navdeep thanx for all info you provide through this site. keep the good work on. I sincerly hope that our seniors do look in to various issues and sugesstion provide by you and take some action on them. Bye

Anonymous said...

Hi Maj Navdeep,
Thanks a lot for keeping every service offr upto date with latest happenings. Hats of to your yeoman
service. God bless you

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep Sir,
Thanks a million for the great info.
All Lt Cols owe many treats to him.

Anonymous said...

@ Kaps
@ MN

Both of you are bang on tgt (with justified but ill concealed and unguided bitterness, I might add).
Despite the oft expressed sighs of relief on monetary doles, I am confident no soldier will ever condone this act of rank degrade – wilful or otherwise. It remains THE issue.
I know it is a tall order to remain positive when we are made to appear to fight our own govt. Do we have an alternative? Let's face it that is the way the current political dispensation in India will work for some time to come.
Although it may take an indeterminate time, status quo ante will be restored and some – both by reason of logic / fairness and by pressing political circumstances such as a failed military campaign or the spectre of one.
So, ironically, when it (status) is returned to us it won't be because we asked for it – it will be given with a sense of urgency and mission orientation.
It’s so obvious – India can not be a world dominant economy with a third rate military.


Anonymous said...

Everyone has lauded the steadfast and brave stand of the Chiefs in this SPC fiasco. Trust a frustrated guy to rake up Shekhar's 'trade union' blah, blah, blah. Who says the main issue of izzat has been forgotten...the mental monster is only in your mind, pal, for we are made of sterner stuff. Ignore our resolve to fight this war at your own peril. Make no mistake, this a fight TTD - ToTheDeath.

Anonymous said...

hi maj Navdeep a section of offrs from navy has been going through ur blog. ur blog has been exceptionally gud in breaking news that matters most for the armed forces. keep up the gud work.

Anonymous said...

Hi Maj Navdeep,

With the Committee of secretarties declaring that grade pay is indicator of only inter-se seniority within the cadre, isn't the parity issue solved?
With PB4 granted to Lt Cols their total pay (incl MSP) will exceed those of Directors of GOI, and if GP is not the indicator of interse seniority - it must be total pay that is indicative of seniority. So dont services at least at middle levels have parity restored?

I think izzat can not be restored by GP at all. It has to be restored by the way we treat our officers in the three forces.

As of now there is 'izzat' in the services depends on the appt you are holding. You can easily find 3-4 Lt Cols / Cols crammed into one room in offices. You can find many a time inappropriate or inadequate work allotted to officers.

Izzat will come not from outside but from inside when you start treating 'all' officers with respect and dignity they deserve. Keep them if you have appropriate work for them or else release them gracefully.

We require to be less wasteful and more careful of this precious resource we have called officers or else they will decline into something that is less than officer like.

Anonymous said...

To all who talk of this and that.
"Money is Status and Status is Money."
give an award without monetary benefits and see how many takers there will be.
ultimately it is a question of "Are you getting less or more than me".Everything else is Secondary.,

Anonymous said...

MN @ February 1, 2009 12:19 AM

Nice to know you have a name and are not a bystander. :)

I do not know how much you know about functioning of armed forces and that how much they are bound by hierarchy. Following the "proper chain of command" is THE byword for AF. Service chiefs have followed this dictum to the tee when taking it to the highest possible democratically elected office of the country.

For an instant, let us forget that the fight was for pay and parity. Is it an ulterior motive? Raising a voice against denial of natural justice in a democratic way; is it an ulterior motive? I think not. Whatever has been said and done has been turned into a turf war only by the conniving babus by leaking selective sentences to shekhar guptas of media. Did you ever read a report in media leaked by "informed sources in service headquarters"?

As far as setting own house in order is concerned, yes, it has to be done and if you read the comments written to the post be Maj Navdeep, it clearly shows what the majority thinks. But i am sure you will agree with me that a national institution is more or less a reflection of the state of the nation itself. I will leave it at that for you to draw conclusions.

Dear friend, since you do not understand sentiments of someone from AF, every emotion expressed will sound like a scene from Ekta Kapoor serial to you. Call it melodrama or whatever, but the damage done by Sushma Nath and co. is much more than backstabbing.

We learn from people who criticise, and you are one of the critics. You have laid down your views, and I do not agree with most of them. In the same vein, you may not agree with many views of mine. In that regard, it is an endless discussion. But sure I do expect to hear more criticism from you at another time and another post. And hopefully, it will be from MN. Till then :)

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep

Battle is far from over, I fully agree what Tom said that this combatant/non combatant issue was actually to divert the attention fro other two core issues. Had they not raised this we all would have been fighting for 8700/- GP (Which actually should have been given)So let us not loose our aim and keep on fighting for what is due to us.

Anonymous said...

Though the news of The Tribune dt 31Jan09 is true but there is nothing to rejoice. There are speculations that the pay scale of Deputy Secretary level officers is also likely to be elevated simultaneously. So for the time being nothing is being achieved on parity front.

Anonymous said...

@All those itching for a 'battle'!!

What battle, sirs?

Long long ago, when it all started, there were two anomalies under consideration-

a) The Pay band Anomaly- It bore on the financial standing of a middle aged officer with an average 16 years of service and 38 years of age.

b) The Grade pay Anomaly- It had a distinct bearing on the status of the above officer among the employees of the government of India.

If I may, Let's consider its equivalence in the corporate world.
There are technical employees who take home a higher pay packet than the administrative employee or even the owner. But the status is governed by who gets the 'corner' office.

Let's take another example from the social sphere- There is a Deepa Bar at Mumbai. The bar girls (remember- Tarannum) earn in lakhs whereas the old munshi (book keeper) in the same bar would be earning a few thousand rupees at most. Who, do you think, walks out of the main entrance when the bar closes for the night?

Enjoy the money!

God!What was I thinking when I joined the AF.

Anonymous said...

Thanks a ton MAJ Navdeep. One site I read regularly for the updates on the ARMED FORCES and the benefits. We can also discuss on the TA/DA , LTC , Children educational allowance etc.
"May all the happiness be bestowed on you by the almighty".

Anonymous said...

Anony @ February 1, 2009 2:11 PM.

That is a great news.
The pay scale of Deputy Secretary level officers is also likely to be elevated though no one has asked for it……! While the armed forces have been driven to test every threshold of humiliation for seeking to hang on to the status / salary relativity as existed till Sep 08.
Mera Bharat Mahaaan..!

Unknown said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,

What happens to the Lt Cols of MNS? Will they also get PB-4? Kindly share this info in case u have.
Thnx for keeping all of us in high spirits

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep and fellow Bloggers,
Do not leave this new Babu innovation of injecting combatant / noncombatant division amongst the military ranks. This is aimed at destroying cohesion in the military in their quest to undermine it.

Vasundhra said...

Dear Maj Navdeep
Many Thanks for keeping us informed. Nothing has been discussed on issue of now abolished rank of Lt Col(Sel). Every parameter of responsibility till date being the same Lt Col(Sel) being replaced by Col does not mean they be reverted down to,back to coy cdrs status in their retirement by Sixth CPC. It should not be forgotten pensions are directlly connected to the existing emoluments of now serving. After all, all Veteran Lt Cols(Sel) were erstwhile Bn/Regt Cdrs, logically they should have been bracketed with existing Bn Cdrs or equilvalent for the purpose of Pay(Pension) fixation . Ignoring their erstwhile status and placing them in PB-3 litery have reduced the pensions of this rank to the emoluments of IMA Cadet. Legally/technically the Sixth CPC have made pensions(Pay!) un protected' Is it cheating or violation of protecton of Pay(read Pension) Please advise...Lt Col BC Vasundhra(Retd)

Anonymous said...

Padmanabhan @ February 1, 2009 3:11 PM
May kindly note that MNS is not a commissioned cadre. MNS ranks are titular with no functional differentiation. Hence it would be appropriate to project it independently of issues pursued for the commissioned cadre.

avicat said...

I 've been reading a lot on your popular blog. The PB4 notification has set the house on fire. There are comparisons being drawn between the services and the trade unions. There is a sensse of resentment among quite a few bloggers about the way the whole issue has been gladly accepted with total disregard to `izzat' and parity issues.
I wish to add here that merely accepting the dictat from the babus does not lead us to behave like trade unions. Infact we would be acting like ones by remaining foolhardy and adamant about not accepting it and draw our nation's ire. Infact we must take this battle to it's logical denoument steadfastedly step by step. The notification when viewed in that context marks the first important step in our journey. I am sure it's just a matter of time that sanity will prevail and our `dignity' restored with `matching' emoluments.

Rajababu said...

les miserables, all service chaps pse dont give an impressions like "yahoo, Eureka, mission acheived " in ur blogs. its gives wrong signals to baiters to use it against services by telling that "money talks and money keeps mouth shut". i think that when we join services we all are told not to loose self respect and prestige. that and parity should be at the forefront/focal point and not PB 4.

i hope guys can understand and by the way dont stop visiting Navdeeps blog after the ends are met. this guy(Navdeep) needs to be made an MP remember.

Anonymous said...

After so many decades of utter disparity to these Majs / Lt Cols ,now there is some hope due to the efforts of NAVDEEP and others .
The veterans of past wars of 1947,1962,1965 and 1971 who sacrificed so much with frequent wars during that period can hope for pension of reasonable parity for services rendered as soldier officers upto 30 yrs of service
These officers of rks of Maj /Lt Col (about 60% 0f entry) had only received 2/3rd of legitemately eligible pay/pension for decades.
Now with present levels of awakining ( fecilitated by mod comn of inter net and e mails ) we cannot be cheated any further.
We gave our best to the NATION and the present glory to the ARMED FORCES ,in return we were given disparity and degradation.
Wishing best of life to SUNDEEP- YOU ARE TRUE ADJ GEN OF AF.
Those past Adj Gens have not done and they were a party for the present ills.

Anonymous said...

In this enoromous complexity of revisions,upgradations,abolition of rk of 2/Lt, the beaurocracy in both civil and mily have conveniently over looked /forgotten the position/equation of officers of rk of past Majs and Lt Cols upto 30 yrs of svc
Those Majs upto 23yrs 11 mon(even 24yrs 11 mon for few yrs when TS Lt Col pro was after 25 yrs ) and Lt Cols upto 32 yrs of those war yrs svc are so far been equated to present rk of Maj of 6yrs and Lt COl of 13 yrs svc
What a fall and see the degree of down gradation and degradation . This act of neglect and cheating for decades since 1986 has been the genesis and root cause of present ills in officer cadre of AF.The top brass got their near parity and they never bothered about these 60% of officers.

Anonymous said...

Joy &rejoice for Lt Cols in svc. Best wishes to every body and future generations as the efforts and struggles of NAVDEEP and few others are deriving near parity with equivalent G O I services.

Now , Spare a min and think of following of some veterans :-

1.Wars of 1947 ,1962,1965 & 1971 -A soldier/officer who retd in 1972 after sweating/bleeding through those frequent wars during that period with svc upto 30 yrs ; of rks of Naik ,Hav , Naib Sub , Sub , Maj and Lt Col are getting only half of pension that is eligible to retirees after 1.1.2006 .

Ex- a Maj with 23 yrs 11 mo svc as officer gets pen of about Rs13000/ ;whereas a similer rk offr of LT col rk with say 20 yrs svc gets Rs 26000.
Near similar disparity from sepoy to Lt Col .


Anonymous said...

Its so disheartening the confusion and issues created by the Justice who made the 6 CVC and then the babus who went amok on the same. Guess it is that either the Forces are too smart for the babus to be scared of them or else the babus have to run the country and they have decided that they do not the forces.... Or we can say that the country does not deserve such a dedicated lot of officers and men serving with all their might... Let the babus fight the turmoil like they did the Mumbai attacks.... sitting at home, calling the Army and the navy and blaming everyone else.. This is the irony called INDIA

akj4902 said...

At present PBOR contracting diabetes in peace get no disability attributed to service which is wrong. Are there any Court Judgements with respect to such lifestyle diseases? Kindly share