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Friday, January 2, 2009

What about increase in Grade Pay for ranks other than Lt Cols, upgradation of status, higher pay for Lt Gens etc ? Is the story over ?

Fortunately No. The story is not over, not yet.

A committee is going to examine the inter-se relativities of military and civil officers and the issue has not been rejected as reported by some sections of the media.

Before rumour mongering, langar gupp and half-baked reports rise again, I feel it important to throw light on the little I know on the directions of the PM on the military pay & status issue.

It is true that the note from the PMO contains a stipulation that combat ready Lt Cols are to be upgraded to PB-4. But what is the definition of Combat readiness ? Nobody knows. Every officer of the defence services is a combatant - hence to my mind, every Lt Col/Wg Cdr/Cdr should get it. I think this stipulation should simply imply that those officers who are currently holding appointments on deputation in ‘outside organisations’ which are tenable by civil officers of the Junior Administrative Grade (JAG) shall continue to receive a GP of Rs 7600 till the time they revert back to the forces.

The problem however is that the term ‘deputation’ has different connotation for the military vis-a-vis the civil services. In the civil services, it refers to an appointment outside the cadre and is purely voluntary and optional in nature while in the services postings to organisations such as MES, AR and RR are sometimes technically (incorrectly) termed as ‘deputation’ but are not so in the classical sense. In fact, if I remember correctly, even the Hon’ble Supreme Court had held that postings to Assam Rifles are mandatory and not ‘deputation’ in the conventional sense as the term is used in the civilian set-up.

It also brings us to another important point. In the civil services, an officer who volunteers to proceed on deputation on a lower post remains in his or her actual pay band but draws a lower GP attached to that particular deputation post. Drawing the same analogy, all Lt Cols must remain in PB-4 even if they are on deputation to other (lower) posts. It would not be fair to implement this modality any other way.

Another aspect sent for implementation by the PMO is that Lt Colonels would henceforth not be posted on deputation to other organisations. Good in a way since they would not have to work under officers from other cadres with a shorter length of service till the relativities are actually settled, but how would we be able to implement this remains to be seen. I personally feel it is not exactly practical though it would all depend on how ‘deputation’ is defined for such orders to take effect.

As I said in my previous post, there is no ‘full stop’ in issues like these and the setting up of the committee to examine rest of the issues shows just that. Had the GoM been satisfied with the current relativities in vogue as imposed on the forces, there would have been no orders for setting up of a committee. The committee would definitely go into the service conditions, historical perspective and length of service taken to reach particular ranks and grades while deliberating on this very imperative issue. Ideally the GoM itself should have examined these issues but perhaps going into such details would require additional and better technical expertise.

We should stay positive, we’ll symptomatically handle all issues as they come. I don’t think any anger should be directed towards our pay cells or top brass or elements in the MoD who supported the forces’ demands - they have played their roles well, otherwise the story would have climaxed in August 2008 after the govt resolution. Some months on, Lt Cols are in PB-4, many other ‘lighter’ anomalies stand addressed and the issues of status, relativities and pay parity stay alive. I may sound too optimistic but nothing is possible till we all exude positive energy. If readers remember, I always used two words for those who felt that PB-4 was an impossible dream – Have Faith, and I’ll say them again.

“Positivity, have you had your plus sign today ?” : Prince (1988)

76 comments:

Anonymous said...

THIS IS NOT A GREAT NEWS AT ALL! THE WORD "COMBAT ROLES" IS VERY MISLEADING.

1. WHAT DOES IT IMPLY????

(a) DOES IT MEAN THAT ONLY LT COLS IN FIELD WILL GET INTO THE PAY BAND 4. WHICH MEANS THAT IF THE OFFR MOVES TO A PEACE AREA HIS PAY BAND WILL COME DOWN.

(b) OR DOES IT MEAN THAT ONLY LT COLS FROM THE COMBAT ARMS WILL GET IT. WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE LT COLS OF ASC, EME, AOC ETC. IN FACT EVEN THE OFFRS POSTED TO PEACE AREAS ARE ALWAYS COMBAT READY. SAY FOR EG A TERRORIST STRIKE.

(C) THIS IS JUST RIDICULOUSTHE WHOLE GAMBIT COULD BE TO CREATE A RIFT WITHIN THE ARMY.

(d) THIS MUST BE OPPOSED TOOTH AND NAIL.

(e) WHAT WILL THE TERM DEPUTATION THEN MEAN. WILL THE NSG LT COLS NOT GET IT SINCE THEY ARE ON DEPUTATION? ALL FOR SERVING THE NATION.

(F) THE GOVT MUST NOT FORGET THAT THE LT COL IN PEACE STN HAS ALSO A OPERATIONAL ROLE TO PERFORM.


(G) WHICH BABU IN PB4 IS IN COMBAT ROLE?????

ALL OFFRS PL DONT ACCEPT THIS ATTEMPT TO CREATE A RIFT BETWEEN US.

PRINCE

Anonymous said...

A matured write-up indeed. Thanks Navdeep.

Anonymous said...

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=TOI&BaseHref=TOIM/2009/01/02&PageLabel=15&EntityId=Ar00103&DataChunk=Ar01504&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T





Armed forces to have separate pay panel
TIMES NEWS NETWORK


New Delhi: With armed forces often complaining about being given step-motherly treatment by successive pay commissions which, they feel, are dominated by civil service interests, the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) has decided that the three services will have a dedicated panel to decide their salary issues.
The PMO has informed the defence ministry that the pay panel will be de-linked from the pay commission that looks into the salary revisions of central government employees. If initial reactions are any indication, the decision has been received with mixed emotions as details of the pay commission’s functioning are unclear.
Although a long-pending demand of the forces, the move does not bring any immediate cheer to the army, navy and the air force as the next pay commission will come along only after ten years.
As for now, while the government has agreed to restore the 70% pensionary weightage for jawans on retirement, it has attached a conditionality to placing Lt-Colonel rank officers and their equivalents in the navy (Commander) and the IAF (Wing Commander) in the higher pay band of PB-4. WAITING FOR PAYBACK
The order on a separate pay panel fails to cheer forces
Govt to restore the 70% pensionary weightage for jawans on retirement, but sets terms on placing Lt-Col rank officers in higher pay band
Govt silent on demand for uniform grade pay for civilian and military officers Govt mum on core pay demands
New Delhi: The Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) has, in a communication to the defence ministry, said that only those Lt-Colonels serving in combat roles will be placed under the PB-4 category. The Lt-Cols on deputation to other services will receive PB-4 status only when they return to their parent service.
“We have received no official communication from the defence ministry until now. But this seems to mean that an officer posted in South Block or is on deputation to an organization like the Assam Rifles will not get PB-4 status. It’s ridiculous,’’ said an angry senior officer. The main grouse of the forces revolves around the fact that the extant parity of Lt-Cols has been lowered by retaining them in PB-3 (Rs 15,600-39,100), while similarly placed civilians and paramilitary officers have been raised to PB-4 (Rs 37,400-67,000). Lt-Col rank officers, after all, form the backbone of the 55,000-strong officer cadre, numbering 18,950.
To top it all, the defence ministry is silent on the fate of the other two “core demands’’ of the armed forces—placement of all Lt-Generals in the new “higher administrative grade plus’’ category on par with police DGPs and uniform grade pay for military officers and civilian officers—amid strong indications that they have been summarily rejected.
For the last six-seven months, the armed forces have been pleading with the government that their extant parity with their civilian and paramilitary counterparts has been “destroyed’’ by the new revised pay scales under the 6th Pay Commission. The hopes of the armed forces had been rekindled after the PM constituted the three-member ministerial committee headed by foreign minister Pranab Mukherjee in September to look into their four “core demands’’. But the “piecemeal’’ decision of the government now, after Mukherjee submitted the report, has left the forces stunned. The PMO, however, has declared that it will set up a committee to review the command and control functions, and the status of the armed forces vis-a-vis that of their civilian and paramilitary counterparts. TNN
Lt Gen Thamburaj is army’s vice-chief
New Delhi: Lieutenant General Noble Thamburaj on Thursday assumed office as the new vice-chief of army staff. Lt Gen Thamburaj takes over from Lt Gen M L Naidu, who retired from service on Wednesday, the defence ministry said. Commissioned in 1969 into Bombay Sappers, Lt Gen Thamburaj, a second-generation officer, is an alumnus of the National Defence Academy. Before taking over as the vice-chief, the general officer was the army’s southern commander. AGENCIES

Anonymous said...

My Dear Navdeep,

Thanks for a rational and matur approach.

Remember, i have been time and agin calling on those who matter that the Goverment has gone into negotiation mode. Well an IAS and politician can not and does not function and think like a service officer. Their upbringing, approach and methodology is different. They are hagglers, Nay sayers, negotiators, opportunists and status quo-ers. They are happy with whatever is and dislike
/ resist change. They do not like problems and their ways of problem resolution are typically politicians. (What benfits to me? is the first question. How can I exploit this to improve My position and status? that being second question)

That is why I had warned that the three Chiefs prepare themselves for long Negotions. Unfortunately, they had stated their last accptable positions at the first go itself. And now they have nothing to negotiate.

Still, the battle is not lost and the three chiefs must firmly get into longer time frame negotiation mode.

Havard Business School guidelines on Negotiation are again and again recommended to be read. Do not Come under pressure due to time...

create situation where in time is on your side rather than on Government's side.

Well elections are nearby... a great opportunity....

Jate Jaate Sardar Ki pagari se Kuchh nikalo..!!!!!

Anonymous said...

see how the public of India is fooled by one and all..
TV News headlines ....
Seperate pay pannel for Defence Services...
2 b implemented in next pay commisssion..ie 10 yr later if the babu at that time wants it... HA..ha.....
PB4 for Lt col for Combat ready officers...
Those not combat ready please go into Hibernation.... till....babaus think u r combat ready..
till that time we save money on ur trg ie..firing..BPET, Fd Exercices... war games, Courses, etc..etc... Good way to save money.
But if another mumbai happens b ready (in peace stn) to b in combat role in 15 min till the babus at Delhi and State finish their party and wake up that they can not control any thing other then being a liability to the nation.

Anonymous said...

What is Combat Ready..???

This is what happens when IAS in PMO play as generals....

These guys have unsatible itch to play as Generals. They should satisfy that basic psychological need by playing GIJoe or vidio games..

Playing real general is a professional matter not meant for PMO mendarins...they could have at least asked the MoD ....


Ha Ha...Combat Ready??? Like GIJoe ?

Anonymous said...

Major Navdeep SIR
TUSSI GREAT HO
KHUDA AAPKO SAMALAT RAKHHE AUR IJJAT BAKHSE
Hardly you find this kind of selfless service such positive energy motivation vision and leadership allin one
May we be able to emulate some
INSHA ALLAH

Ramani said...

deputation.what does it mean? you get deputation allowance sans pb4??.
what is the rationale?.or is it that secondment on permanent basis is discouraged?.all confusing.I think personell on secondment should be converted to civil service and de-uniformed.No service perks like rations etc,.
also when is one a no-combatant?.as long as you are in uniform and wield a gun, you are one. else. what?
this is is the first type of such discrimination.we ae hearing
the consequences can be dangeous. hope the defence ministry will remove this ambuiguity before it snowballs.

viru said...

I totally support Navdeeps view. We must be positive always. Things might get delayed but they would eventually reach their logical conclusion.

Anonymous said...

This is what Veterans say:

[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Chandigarh/Separate_pay_panel_for_armed_forces_a_farce/articleshow/3923714.cms]

But what says the Italion Queen???

Please say something....

Anonymous said...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Chandigarh/Separate_pay_panel_for_armed_forces_a_farce/articleshow/3923714.cms

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 0946 hours

Let me tell you an anecdote of this man’s leadership qualities because I know him and his family well.

He was born with the proverbial silver spoon in a very rich landed family from Punjab to an Army officer father and bureaucrat mother. Never did the entire family boast about their inherited riches and remained humble to the maximum extent. Each member of the family could choose any profession / business and could have chosen to enjoy their inherited wealth but the profession of arms prevailed for them. One of my course-mates was posted on the staff of Infantry School when Navdeep attended a course there many moons ago and he still remembers how in a packed auditorium he questioned the logic of having separate swimming timings for Brigadiers and upwards in a pool in Mhow and how that question received a loud applaud from the staff as well as student offrs. He is the most upright in expressing his thoughts than any regular army officer I have come across. His humility and respect towards seniors despite being a leading personality in Punjab and Chandigarh is a lighthouse for all of us. The things settled by him for us like toll tax exemption would be enjoyed by all of us for all times to come. He persistently worked towards our benefits without being directly affected and believe me this he did in spite of stiff resistance from within our own organization but he succeeded. No body ever supported him in the JAG branch when he initiated the toll tax case and eventually he filed his own case which he won. Pay band four would not have been possible without his die-hard support and beliefs. We in the army, navy and air force should thank him for whatever little we have achieved. I salute you son.

U know who…

Anonymous said...

Look what MMS and Sonia govt has done to the Armed Forces. Bonanza for Babus and kick to the Armed Forces.

Look at what other Countries do for their Armed Forces:

http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1773507

Obama to hold military ball on January 20
Washington: Continuing with a tradition started by President George Bush, President-elect Barack Obama will host Commander-in-Chief's ball on the evening of January 20, the day he is sworn in as the 44th Head of state of the United States of America.

Presidential Inauguration Committee (PIC) announced yesterday that the Commander-in-Chief's inaugural ball is being held by Obama to honour the US's active duty and reserve military. The tradition was first started by Bush in 2005.

"It is a privilege to honour our men and women in uniform during our inaugural festivities by continuing the tradition of the Commander-in-Chief's Ball," Obama said in a statement issued by PIC.

Additional invited guests for the function will include wounded warriors (Purple Heart recipients), families of fallen heroes, and spouses of deployed military, PIC said in a statement.

"Our troops represent the best America has to offer, and without their dedication and sacrifice we would not be able to enjoy the freedoms that we are coming together to celebrate on January 20," the President-elect said.

"They deserve our thanks and our gratitude," said Obama, who would be attending the ball along with wife Michelle Obama.

The first couple is expected to dance at the inaugural ball to be held at the historic National Building Museum and offer brief remarks. One of the 10 official inaugural balls, the Commander-in-Chief's Ball would be broadcast worldwide.

Anonymous said...

This is what someone by name 'all' stated in chat box:

"all: Why Govt is talking about Com/Non Com is there any such devide in any other org, why this ill treatment to forces, better if I was in Pak forces.
2 Jan 09, 10:33 "

Please..please don't ever state like that. For few faults of few babus and a few politicians, let us not fritter away this wonderful organisation. Let us not be so disenchanted to throw away what our forefathers got for us sacrificing their lives.

Anonymous said...

Confusion persists over PMO letter on forces' pay







New Delhi, Jan 1 (PTI) Hours after the announcement of a separate pay commission for the armed forces and inclusion of Lieutenant Colonels in Pay Band-4, defence officers in the services headquarters here feel that more clarity was needed on the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) letter before it could be implemented in its present form.
In the absence of a formal notification, a separate pay panel for the armed forces may just remain a proposal till the next pay commission, which is likely to be set up only a decade from now, they feel.

However, top government sources said that it was just a matter of time before the government notifies the decisions and implements them.

With regard to Lt Cols finding themselves in Pay Band-4 (Rs 37,400-67,000), officers say the differentiation between "combat" and "non-combat" roles was not defined in the Services and hence it would be difficult to deny the pay band to just some of the Lt Cols.

While on deputation to other services, the Lt Cols continued to be armed forces officers, and hence not providing Pay Band-4 for those serving the country in departments other than the defence forces was not practical, they say.

Regarding parity of grade pay for officers from Captains to Brigadiers, the Services wondered if there was any other committee high powered to decide on the issue than the one headed by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, which currently looking into the issues raised by them. PTI
See the LINK:http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/AC7C2992CFE55BA265257531004A4BC1?OpenDocument

Lt Col (retd) G Kameswara Rao said...

Combat ready means a chap who will fire and kill the opponent -- ie a chap whose function is to do so ! That is probably the notion of the Babus and the Politicians ! Since we go on saying that the Armed Forces face hardships in view of their service conditions being different from that of the civilian employees, the only difference the bureaucrats find is the functional role of the Armed Forces which kill to provide security to the nation-- and amongst them the chaps who do that particular job are the Combat Ready personnel!Forget about the Logistic support provided by the "Non Combatant" chaps who give the food, supply the weapons, vehicles, health cover,lay and detect mines, repair the equipment,provide communications and so on as they are not meant to fire and kill. The only chaps useful to the babus and the politicians are the chaps who are wielding the guns beside them and kill the enemy / terrorist and others threatening their own selves'lives and position ! So they want to reward only those "Combat Ready" chaps and let the others stew themselves. But can such Combat Ready chaps do their job if they don't have the weapons, vehicles, health,food, repairs to the equipment.communications et al ? The Babus and Politicians must be conscripted and made to do a tenure in the Armed Forces to understand that these Forces are a World within a World and every element of their compositon is Combat Ready always , whether in war or peace. Could you pleas try to get the actual PMO's missive to the MOD and give it in your bolg so that all conjectures may be laid to rest and we shall know what exactly the PM has ordered.

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous at January 2, 2009 10:22 AM
Dear Sir
I thank you a Ton for sharing that info about Navdeep, infact now I am of opinion that why others? I myself have to learn and emulate those things before talking or raising voices or opinions about others and most important of all, do something without any selflessness to the society, friends etc.

Anonymous said...

Yes, congratulations to the link to the article on Navdeep. Indeed, the nation is lucky to have citizens such as he.

It is just exactly people like this that the TA should be used to attract. Persons from civil life who become army officers as well.

The TA nowadays is (in my opinion) very regrettably being turned into a second rate army, neither ghar ka, na ghaat ka. Its people are on deployment for too long to be of any use in a regular career. And they are not regular army officers.

In fact, the idea of a territorial army is that there is a ready reserve of trained citizens at the hour of armageddon. Not a bunch of chaps who couldnt get into the regular army, and are now trying the back door.

We need the TA to attract the best of the civil society and offer them the glamour and gallantry of the armed forces. And bring about therefore, a better understanding of security, and inculcate patriotism.

Anonymous said...

PB-4 for "Combat ready" Lt Cols ?

If PB-4 is mooted only for personnel who are "combat ready", I'm sorry it will not be applicable for existing AF personnel in PB-4 as the higher you go the lesser "combat ready" you become. Cols & above aren't exactly in the trenches you know, then should they be denied PB-4 if "combat ready" is the criteria !

Bunkum - ALL personnel in uniform are "combat ready", NCE's were phased out long ago. No one can be "combat ready" without supporting arms, services and command elements.

"Deputation" - AF personnel rarely proceed on deputation out of choice or on their accord. So this criteria also fails the test. Actually they are to be compensated by entitlement of Deputation Allowance for serving in another organisation away from own.

PB-4 : What's so great about it ? If combat readiness was a necessity, what do the personnel in other Govt. services (who were below Lt Cols in pay & are now placed in PB-4) do to deserve PB-4. Or are they all "combat ready"?

Anonymous said...

Combat ready and Not Combat ready....

Combatants and No combatants..

Why this differentaition in broght in for PBOR....

Why Not...???

feel_dejected said...

Combat Role/ combat ready.....????

Does it mean all those in fmns/units on WE get PB4 ?

How about those in fmns/units on PE ?

What is their fault? Are they in PE fmns/units by choice?

Anonymous said...

Augstine once said: "An unjust law is no law at all".

Anonymous said...

Augstine once said: "An unjust law is no law at all".

F*** Augusin pls... this IAS /IPS governed India... about which It said:

ANDHER NAGARI CHAUPAT RAJA, TAKA SER BHAAJI TAK SER KHAJA..

the gold and iron is the same price uless usfull for Keeping Politician in power..A goonda is general and a general is only gatekeeper...

NISAR MAIN TIRI GALIYON PE YE WATAN..

Anonymous said...

Combat and Non-Combat?

Devide and Rule?

Harry said...

@ All Service Bro

This so called "new year cheer by media" need to be CONTEMPTUOUSLY REJECTED !! Four Core demands are NON NEGOTIABLE !! Period ! Throw the Ball in Govt's Court back now !

Disturbed Soldier said...

Absolutely amazing how the bureacracy works.Go to them with some genuine grievances and instead of analysing and resolving them they create fresh anomalies and distort the whole picture.Now u are running around to sort out the fresh problems and the original problem remains.

Anonymous said...

@all....

I REJECT THIS ....

I VE NOT YET SIGNED THE CDA DECLARATION...

Anonymous said...

Dear Citizens,

It is with utter helplessness and brimming bitterness that all commissioned officers of India view the recent scraps thrown by the honourable Prime Minister. The conditional PB4 for Lt Cols has added to the bitter guilt – of enjoying something we never really fought for (money) – in lieu of something we have always stood for (status). Meanwhile, unfortunately, the recurrence of pay commissions in bringing the commissioned officer a notch lower among govt servants has been 'achieved' (for want of a better word) for the sixth time. The media has played the important role in making us feel like gladiators (not soldiers) even in utter defeat at the hands of, not our enemies but our own head of govt! (The distinction, however, is getting blurred).

In rage I might blurt: give me my rightful Grade Pay and give away my 'new' Military Service Pay (that has brought this woe of degradation of commissioned officers by attracting ill concealed covetousness of the babus) to the secretaries and PM babu, who may now choose to bear arms for India.

But, every Indian knows that that is not his soldiers' way. The Indian soldier's way is to simply soldier on. Grade or degrade. So the challenge is to remain motivated - as much for the country and our men as for ourselves. At least till we fade away.

As for the Chiefs, who seem (according to media reports) to have acquiesced, (despite a clear and hopeful articulation in the beginning) less said the better. The fact is that the Chiefs and Army Cdrs (Cs-in-C) have, like the All India Services, reserved for themselves defacto OROP(one rank one pension) and have let the others flounder. The first ones to hang from Raisana Hill or publicly shot should be these gentlemen.

What else can I say? Our time is up. Perhaps the previous paragraph's ranting merely shows my resentment. I hope I can deal with it.

However, unlike our generation, the younger generation of commissioned officers are unlikely to think too highly of themselves (we the 'Kashmir' generation having been commissioned in the late 80's thought we were the apple of the Indian eye - ironically, without the fat pay packets we get now!). Soldiers who have to fight for their status may not have enough 'moral juice' to fight for you. I hope I am proved wrong. My best wishes are with you.

Nevertheless, I suggest, like our smart Prime Minister and his secretaries, you too should plan to settle your children outside India in western countries. But, then, you already know that!

Bharat said...

Navdeep,
First of all, I wish you and your kith and kin a happy, healthy and peaceful new year.
Thanks for all the info and the good work in keeping hope on behalf of your uniformed brethren.
As you've stated, the story doesn't end here. We will continue to rally until justice is done.
We can and We will!!!

Anonymous said...

Well done Babus ! You have thrown the spanner in the works, as expected. Now the implementation of PB4 for Lt Cols will have to await definition of 'Combat ready'. This will require another committee which will take time till next pay commission ! In the meantime for the public, the Govt. has , in all its generosity, accepted Army's demand and resolved a 'core Issue'. Why this stipulation for only Lt. Cols only and not for any other rank. What happens to Lt Col pensioners. They are certainly not 'Combat Ready'!

Anonymous said...

Yeah.
The Babus can now solve the 'combat' problem by shooting the retired Lt Cols and their wives.
No retired Lt Cols No pensioner liability! Ha Ha.

Anonymous said...

why don't we go on strike for one day like ONGC and rest of others,may be the the govt will see the importance of defence forces

Prasad said...

Maj Navdeep...

Indeed the info you have been posting is of great content, maturity and filled with wisdom.

It takes a lot to be positive....and to turn negative,one just has to take an exaperating sigh and drop the shoulders.

I strongly belive and support your ideology...HAVE FAITH

GODSPEED all and...may he shower us with peace and perseverance and the FAITH

Prasad

Anonymous said...

Its time to show them that we rally are "COMBAT READY"..

Anonymous said...

MY DEAR IGNORANT FAUJI BROTHERS,,,,,,,,,,,

SOME OF YOU SEEM THRILLED TO THE HILT HEARING ABOUT THE "MAGNANIMITY" OF THE UPA GOVERNMENT HEADED BY Mr "CON" MOHAN SINGH.OUT OF THE FOUR CORE ISSUES,,,,,,HE HAS GIVEN A HALF BAKED DECISION ON ONE THAT TOO WITH THE PROVERBIAL SPANNER THROWN IN(LT COL ISSUE).THE PENSIONARY WEIGHTAGE HAS BEEN AGREED TO,BUT THE CORE ISSUE OF "PARITY" HAS BEEN FORGOTTEN CONVINIENTLY..................

WE HAVE BEEN CONNED........THIS GOVT HAS TO GO............THIS SHOULD BE OUR AIM IN THE FOLLOWING DAYS.........HAVE FAITH GUYS.................

Anonymous said...

For the benefit of the government,,,,,,,,,we are not such big fools to believe you.........simple............you have done nothing for us.........we cannot be cowed down..........

Anonymous said...

why so much fuss for combat roles, Yes an officer on combat role must get higher pay than any other Lt col enjoying life in HQ ,BRO,MES,DRDO or ARMY hq must get less pay.EVERY one after becoming LT COL should have choice to be posted on combat roles or otherwise.I AM SURE MANY WILL STILL WANT TO GO AS GE ORTASK COMMANDER OR ENJOY LIFE BY DOINNG SHARE MARKET IN ARMY HQ

Anonymous said...

you fool what you are taking LT COL will go GE or task force commander even in PB 2 .All engineer officer must be with drawn from MES BRO as we are more happy with civilian GE

Anonymous said...

ANON@7.23PM........

YES THERE SHOULD BE A DIFFERENCE,,,,,,,,BUT FIRST THE LT COLS PAY SHOULD BE RAISED BY ANOTHER 10000 BUCKS FOR WHAT THEY DO AND THEN YOU CAN HAVE A 5000 DIFFERENCE IN THE PAY.........U IAS STOOGE......

Anonymous said...

The spine less Deepak Kapoor has welcomed these recommendations............SUCH A SHAME.......WHEN DOES HE RETIRE???????????

Anonymous said...

when next day he is offered Governorship..

Anonymous said...

ANNO 7;32 WE MUST APRICIATE EFORTS MADE BY GEN KAPOOR.IT IS A FACT THAT WORKING CONDITION FOR COMBAT LT COL IS DIFFICULT AND THEY SHOUD GET HIGHER PAY GRADE

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous at 7.31

They have to go, else they will be in PB3, without MSP but with 8 Days CL and 30 Days EL.

Anonymous said...

The great army chief shoots his mouth off as the IAS babus have pressurised him by taking his wife to task for activities of AWWA..................and the Lt Cols suffer...................................................................

Anonymous said...

we have been degraded every rank,,,,,,,,,,,,,The UPA has given us what they can and now they must GO...............

Anonymous said...

What a chief..
dare someone call Mrs Kayani to court...imagine what happens..

Anonymous said...

have the chiefs been bought too?????????????seems like kapoor saab has been promised something,,,,,,,,and what about teh CNS??????he is quite today after all the harping,,,,,,,why just can they not resign????????

indian said...

Dear Maj Navdeep, Here is the icing on the cake. Air Force had a meeting today to deliberate if Wg Cdr's in the 13 to 15 yrs bracket can be put in between PB3 & PB4. And 16 yrs onwards on regular PB4 bracket. This is the level of maturity. GOD this is heights of intra service disparity.............!!!!!!!!!

pawan said...

There is NO reason for Army Chief to be cowed down due to the issue of AWWA activities. Every one knows that it is a NON PROFIT ORGANISATION working for betterment of women folk married to the brave and selfless soldiers. If some technical glitch is there it can be easily rectified by govt orders. If Rs 80,000 crores worth of valid loans of so called farmers (it also includes loans taken by thugs and political goondas) can be waived off for political gains then AWWA HAS DONE NO SUCH CRIME for Army Chiefs wife to be afraid off. She deserves all the privileges . It is for the govt to ensure that she does.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

Whatever we make out of this half baked stuff of GoI letter that has been sent to Def HQs, we will probably get over this bureaucratese soon. I salute you for your efforts and the painstaking work that you have been carrying on over the last few months on this issue. I am certain we wouldn't have reached even this far sans your work. More than keeping myself updated on the issue from the blog, I have learnt so much about the matters which a man in uniform normally knows the least.
Just keep it up, May NEW YEAR bring greater glory and achievements to all shades of our uniforms.

Anonymous said...

@ anony 8:03
why do u want chiefs to resign? dum hai to khud resign karo...

Anonymous said...

The option of putting Lt.col's with 16 yrs of service in PB4 with full GP was one of the best. However the army and the airforce personnel don't seem to understand the basic nuances of this. The constant pestering from some of this dumbo's has made the deal for Lt.col even worse. The babus are smart and they know how to fool the dim wits. When the three services themselves don't have a common understanding on the problem how do we expect the IAS babus to do justice to us. Don't blame the IAS, blame yourself and blame your senior officers who have been blackmailed into submission. The fact that the whole PB issue has come to this state is because the service pay cell had no clue of what they had worked out. Major Navdeep through his blog cannot fight the case with the GOM. He may portray as if he is projecting the cause of the services unfortunately that is not so.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 10.19, Navdeep has done more for the services than you anyway, so shut your yap.

Anonymous said...

The three service chiefs should resign if they have even a bit of shame left in them. But will they??
No Never. They are not effected by the status issue and any way they will go into oblivion in a year or two. Can they stand up and say that the status issue is non negotiable??? I doubt they have spunk in their balls to do that. Then why this constant banter on this blog ??? Just relax take home whatever you get. If you still have some spunk left in your balls either leave service or else go to court.

Kaps said...

Anonymous at 1032Pm. It is clear who is lacking in "spunk in balls". By staying anonymous, you convey your dispensation most deftly. How stupid can people like you get? It is hard to imagine some arseticks like you ranting about your loss in such a frivolous manner. If you are so bright and fearless, show yourself up else stop blabbering.

For fellow faujis this is the text of the letter from PMO:

Full text of the confidential letter:

Refer meeting on November 28 with the EM and RM

i) Lt Colonels in their parent service holding combat or ready to combat jobs may be placed in PB4 and may be given a grade pay of Rs 8000. Lt Colonels on deputation may be given PB4 and Grade Pay of Rs 8000 only when they return from deputation to their parent service

ii) While the dispensation in Para (i) above may apply to Lt Colonels already on deputation, in future no Lt Colonel may be sent on deputation. Only Majors and Colonels may be sent on deputation.

iii) A high powered committee may be set up to resolve command and control functions / status of armed forces officers vis-à-vis paramilitary forces and civilians

iv) In future, pay revision of armed forces may be delinked from civilians and separate board set up for the armed forces.

This should not leave any doubt in any body's mind.

Anonymous said...

What everybody is missing is the present created situation is knowingly or unwnowingly destroying the very fabric of the Armed forces... They are trying to create different categories within the uniformed men- the way Britisher's did-- "Divide & Rule". All this being done to accommodate the whims of few babus (who are vigrously working through their associations behind the scenes) who have to work with the uniformed man in a mixed organisation.

The very essence of soldiery is being threatened & this needs to be vigourously nipped in the bud before our nation loses its esteemed forces. If things progress like this, it is not far from now.... what will be left will be nothing but a bunch of uniformed chowkidars guarding the borders.

zulven said...

i can smell the atmosphere of mutiny here. guys beware, there are a few people who r trying toprovocate the others. be patient gentlemen. give the chiefs their due....for if not for CAS and CNS, we would have accepted the pittens that we have been doing for the last fifty years (5 pay commissions) at least for the first time, the highest level has listened to he Armed forces grievances. untill now it has been killed at the MOD level itself. Pls dont blame navdeep or say something stupid like the previous comment please encourage guys and appreciate their work in the right earnest. please maintain some dignity on this forum.

Sathye said...

If the PMO letter to the Ministry as reported is true then we may safely assume that a civil services’ coupe has taken place in the country.
The political executive has lost its will and are now helpless hostages of the Baboos. The civil services attained ultimate power in our nation and are now the sovereigns……!
The existence of political executive has been reduced to notional..
Honorable Madam President, never thought that those hold your commission would be made to face this predicament.
It is in the good of the things for everyone to remember that the armed forces are built and nurtured over the years as self contained organism that has successfully guaranteed and continue to guarantee this nation peaceful existence and safety. The standards it set for its members may be difficult for others to emulate though.
It is also in the good of the things for everyone to remember that the armed forces are created not by the civil services. But surely they are now in a position to destroy it.

sathye said...

Request read "Coup" for "Coupe" in the comment above.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,
If text of the letter from PMO, as posted by some in this blog is true, I do not see any reason to fear. PB4 is for ALL Lt Cols except those on deputation. we all are combat ready unless in actual war. I do not see any reason as to how letter can be interpreted to exclude some officers of ARMED FORCES. This is individual interpretation which is going overboard. so relax and wait for MoD notification.

Anonymous said...

@all , AR, RR, ARE COBATISED FORCES

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep Sir,
Please clarify, does a tenure officer posted in DHQA is also in PB-4?
Regards.

Anonymous said...

@ALL, time waste and meaningless discussion .REF SAI/AO ,all uniformed service personnal in three services belong to combatised forces.

sks said...

The so called "confidential" note sent by PMO one month after the ministers meeting held on 28 Nov 2008,reveals the working culture at the highest level of the Govt.
It appears that no serious thought was given while drafting the letter without due process of fact finding.The terms used like combatant or combat readiness of a service officer before accepting the raise in the pay band ,carry no substance relevent to accepting the need to revise the pay band.The creation of a special lower scale of grade pay of Rs 8000 is to merely assert the power of executve without any basis or reasoning.
It is also glaringly evident that no consultation or discussion with the concerned services was held to determine the feasiblity of fulfilling the requirement laid down for granting the pay band.
It is so embarassing to justify the means used to arrive at the end.Even the RM could not justify the draft when asked to explain as brought out in a press report.He could merely state that "we would solve the minor issues involved".
It is a shame that after 3 months of delibration by the GOM & futher review by the PM ,his office comes out with such an ambiguous draft that creats yet another ANOMALY to solve.

Ramani said...

hullo all,
it is because of the change in economic scenario where now the opportunity "outside is better"
that everybody is asking for their due rights. else they would have accepted and lumped everything as done in the past. Also the electronic media in the form of blogs or whatever has now opened up an avenue for venting our grievences which was lacking earlier.
we should all thank Navdeep for giving us a chance to air our problems and grievences.
it seems the pmo letter has created more controversy than any resolution.

Harry said...

@ All Service Bro

It gives me immense pain to go through what is supposedly the text of confd letter written by PMO to MoD. Firstly, lt cols have been given GP of 8000, may I ask what's the rational behind it? Incidently this is the lowest GP in PB4 now, as earlier lowest was 8700 (to my mind). How does this solve the problem of status, I fail to understand! Our contention was lt cols are equal to IAS dirs and CPOs (YES CPOs and NOT repeat NOT CPMFs) comdts, so how has that been addressed, can anybody put me wise please? Why does training period of 1/1.5 year NOT count towards service for us, when as-it-is we are so much behind in promotions to AIS cadre? How can an IPS offr with 14 year service (as DIG) be ever equivalent to a Brig with 28+1/1.5 years service? Similarly how can a 16 years IAS JS be ever equivalent to a 32+1/1.5 year Maj Gen? And yet I have NOT talked of No of offrs making it to JS in IAS and Maj Gen in Army(and equivalent in AF & Navy) or for that matter DIG in IPS and Brig in Army (and equivalent in AF & Navy). Has the polity of this great nation become mere "Dhritrashtra"? Surely the honourable PM does understand such stark facts!

So whats the recourse? Well those with honour have only One recourse left .. that is to resign en masse! And when we flood the "rotten system" with deluge of mass resignations, expressing our despair at the treatment meted out to the Armed Forces by the polity (now we can't just blame the Babooz), believe you me, this will force the powers that be to, not only sit up but get jolted and see how promptly things get sorted out!

Rajax said...

@all
Pls talk some sense gentlemen. Except for the last few blogs in which some gentlemen have got it, everyone seems to have latched on to the wrong end of the stick. Combatant and non-combatant is not the issue. PB-4 with the correct Grade Pay is and was always. GP of 8700 or nothing. Lt Gens in HAG + or nothing. We are behind the generals. All of whom are better than any two Secretaries put together.

@ Navdeep

Dear Navdeep,
Could you pls delete all the references to the Chiefs. All of us know that you can't exactly become a senior officer unless you have some exceptional qualities (balls to accept something until you are at a place where you can do something about it other than crib being a quality not endowed to everybody). All the anonymous guys who say anything against our chiefs should be deleted. Never mind their freedom of speech. It flows from the barrel of the guns we hold.

Force1 said...

You all forget a basic anomaly. There can be no equivalence as roles are clearly defined and the civilians cannot claim equivalence.
1. For example, a civilian administers but you command unto death a troop of combatants-from a platoon commander onwards-so even though a Col may be commanding just about a 1000 men but they are his only and not like the civilians
2.a MajGen is a very,very big post for us and his powers to us are limitless, but if you start comparing him on the basis of pay he would rank at the lowest of their senior level Officer.
3. Similarly, for Brigs and Colonels and all other ranks
4. Therefore, it is stupid for the armed forces to ask for equivalence on the basis of pay etc.RATHER IT SHOULD BE THE OTHER WAY around AND THEY should be asking for equivalence with us- but they have fooled us into fighting their war .
5. Equivalence is in the mind. Who asks you to compare yourself with a DM or A SSP/SP. They compare with us and let us just keep our pride intact.
In fact they have started this entire drama. I remember a friend who had joined the IPs in 1992 telling me that today he maybe saluting but later on I would. I dared him! Even today why should anyone of us salute a civilain except the Supreme Commander and other executive posts as only they would be in any way considered our superior officers and all orders have to be carried out on the behalf of the supreme commander only.
6. At various times, I have seen very senior officers grovelling in front of civilian clerks-esp MOD and esp when foreign tours are involved.What about equivalence then?
6. So let the civilians try and get equal to us and not the other way around
regards

Mach22 said...

I agree with Navdeep in everything, n I want to say only one thing, after all these anamolies and friction, why don't we question the CPC headed by one retired Judge of high esteem, was he plnted one, he must have given so many important decisions through out his life, Why did he get every thing wrong towards Af this time,

@ Does it mean that our higher lot n literate ones in our country can be fooled so easily?

@ is it the reason that still our PM SMS is being misled?

@ I really salute our Chiefs for coming out so strongly, unlike V pay commission

@ I ponder cannot We question the reasonibility of this CPC in court, as already Maj Navdeep has brought out basic flaws in their reasoning in fixation of pay

@ I request all my fauji friends to have faith in our system, n I knw If we stand together , everything will be sorted out, including our neighbours.

@ Don't we find ourselves surprised that We did n't do anything when our eastern neighbour "LYNCHED" our BSF men 4 yrs back, now I think n analyse it was due to this thinking and decision making process.

@ i wish that wisdom comes to everybody, n things become alright

@ Regarding these IAS lobby, I will say only one thing, I ve not seen them, so I cannot say anything, but I have seen all these section officers in MoD, n these are the real moles in the system.

@ I joined AF just after passing after and topping Delhi University, and some of my friends and classmates remained there for 3-4 years and became IAS officers. They also tell me that all these system is run by all these Sos and below chaps who don't know , what are they are writing on the file.

@ So its . really very confusing? Whom to sort out?

@ I request evryone to remain positive and be ready for a long fight for justice.

Anonymous said...

diversity in comments are visible.we should remain focused on our efforts to derive our legitimate rights of pay and parity. Nobody will give it in hand readily.WE HAVE TO DERIVE THESE BY DIVERSE APPROACHES AND METHODS. the efforts so far has given some results. therefore continue efforts,it is a constant processes
many thanks to NAVDEEP for highlighting the facts with comparision and analysis.
WE MUST NOT FORGET THAT BUREAUCRACY OF BOTH CIVIL SERVICES AND ARMED FORCES WERE RESPONSIBLE TO THE DISPARITIES .THEY HAVE CREATED THEM. THEY HAVE NEGLECTED MOST OF US SINCE 4TH CPC.THE RESULTS ARE CLEARLY VISIBLE EVERYWHERE-defficiancies in officer cadre ,low morale less motivatoin....etc.THOSE WHO WHO HAVE SWEATED AND BLEEDED SO MUCH THROUGH ALL THOSE WARS SINCE 1947 HAVE BEEN CHEATED . THEY HAVE BEEN GETTING ONLY 70% of their pension.

Anonymous said...

LT COLs were down graded,degraded,ill-treated since 1986 with that famous fixation of pay on 1-1-1986.OUR GENERALS WERE A PARTY FOR THAT ACT OF FIXING (LIKE MATCH-FIXING). lt col pay upto 32 yrs of svc incl service during wars of 1947,1962,1965 and 1971 was fixed at 4400 and col with 15 yrs at 5500 (com after 1971 war).That was the begining of steep fall .parity was nowhere.it was disparity.
with such ill-treatment and cheating to 70% of officer cadre for decades ,so glaringly visible to public- youth did not prefer to join SERVICES.that was the genesis and route cause of everything .

Anonymous said...

a lt col who does not get sel grade rk of col due to limitations of pyramid like structure peculier to AF gets down graded to the level of class 2/3 grade by the time he retires.it is like that till now.we are yet to see any relief.
this lt col remains a coy comdr throught his service and keeps sweating and bleading with the troops till retirement.casualities of injuries/death in all the past wars reflect highest in that category of appts/rk.he has neither the prevelages ,comfort,peace,tranquilty,saftey (beeing in fdls ),pay proportional to length of svc nor advantage of svc till the age of 54-60.SEVENTY PERCENT OF OFFICERS FALL INTO THIS CATEGORY. with this state of diparity can the ARMED FORCES be effective to come out victoriously in any future war?
Therefore it is in the wisdom of the NATION to give so called PB_4 or any other legitimate pay of the grade/class proportional to length of svc.
THE NATION CANNOT KEEP USING THEIR SVC WITHOUT RELATIVE PAY .
THEREFORE DONT CRIB IF A 25 YRS LT COL GETS MORE PAY THAN A COL OF 16 YRS SVC.

zulven said...

Gentlemen
Wait until the MOD notification comes out and u'll find the service chiefs going back to the PM. The time is ripe and mature since the country is indeed relying on the Armed forces while they are making these daring statements to our neighbour. So my request is don't de-mean the chiefs who have done so-much, standing by us all this while. We are still serving and keeping them in high regard. time is the greatest factor. as navdeep says have faith.....every thing will fall in place.

regards

Lt Col G Kameswara Rao (retd) said...

Why all this angry outburst? Let us await the orders in black and white what the PM and Def Min mean by COMBAT READY. For the first time the Service Chiefs have taken up seriously the anomalies in the CPC recommendations since the time the CPCs have been doing injustice to the Armed Forces.Watchful expectancy and Wait and hope may be the key words for now.

Anonymous said...

No sensible person will have any doubt that this Govt is being taken in for a ride for by their partners in rule or loot,the babus. It is shameful for the P.M from the land of servicemen to take such decisions and announce committees after committees. Perhaps the IESM should request the Akal Thakt to give some sensible advice to him. He may listen to them!

Anonymous said...

I would like to know the status on pension for lt col (TS) pre 2006 retiree as on date after placing Lt Col in pay band 4.