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Thursday, January 1, 2009

Lt Colonels finally in Pay Band-4. What does it practically mean for serving and retired officers ?

Ultimately, we have just one moral duty: to reclaim large areas of peace in ourselves, more and more peace, and to reflect it towards others. And the more peace there is in us, the more peace there will be in our troubled world - Etty Hillesum

In these times of chaos, let us wish and hope for peace.
A very happy new year to all readers of this blog.

Now back to the topic at hand.

Impact on serving officers

There have been mixed reactions to the news confirming the placement of all Lt Colonels and equivalent in Pay Band-4 with a Grade Pay (GP) of Rs 8000. But if you ask me, there is no reason to feel dejected. We should feel happy that for the time being our Lt Cols are in PB-4 and would not be drawing a total pay package lower than Non Functional Selection Grade (NFSG) officers of Group-A civil services or Selection Grade (SG) officers of the All India Services. The Grade Pay has been tinkered with and lowered but we would keep pursuing the issue and there is nothing like a ‘full stop’ in the labyrinths of administrative strata.

Many people in the civil as well as defence set up were convinced that PB-4 was never going to come through but I’m glad that ultimately we were established in the positive and they in the red. Lt Colonels were wrongly placed equivalent to the Junior Administrative Grade (JAG) by the 6th CPC (PB-3 with GP of Rs 7600) but now have been upgraded to PB-4 with a GP of Rs 8000. The GP of Lt Cols has however been kept lower than NFSG officers of Group-A civil services / SG officers of All India Services who enjoy a GP of Rs 8700.

The upgradation would also practically mean that Lt Colonels shall now draw a higher pay band and a higher GP than the following :

Deputy Secretaries to Govt of India

Directors and Additional Secretaries to State Governments

District Police Chiefs (Known with variable nomenclature as District SPs / Distt SSPs / DCPs)

Non-Functional Selection Grade Officers of the Central Engineering Services

2ICs of Central Police Organisations

Commandants (Junior Grade) of the Indian Coast Guard

Deputy Commissioners / District Magistrates / Collectors of Districts in the Junior Administrative Grade

Scientists ‘D’ of the Technical and Scientific Services

Joint Controllers of Defence Accounts (JCsDA)

Impact on retired officers

Retired Lt Colonels (Selection Grade as well as Time Scale) are also expected to gain from this announcement. The basic pension of pre-2006 Lt Colonels and equivalent would most probably be fixed at Rs 25700 which is higher than the basic pension of NFSG officers of the Group-A services as well as SG officers of the All India Services which is now fixed at Rs 23050. As prior to 6th CPC, the edge in pensions of Lt Cols shall hence continue to operate vis-à-vis their civilian counterparts. Most of the earlier Lt Col retirees were till now drawing a basic pension of Rs 7550 whereas NFSG/SG officers were drawing a basic pension of Rs 7150 but the 6th CPC had altered this advantage to the detriment to Lt Cols who were now granted a basic pension of Rs 17063. Thankfully this has been rectified by the GoM.

So be positive and relax and continue blogging !!!

85 comments:

Anonymous said...

ITs ALL BECAUSE OF YOU NAVDEEP SIR
VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY SIR
shiv mangal mishra

Disturbed soldier said...

Why is the country giving us this kind of stepmotherly treatment.we asked only for existing parity to be maintained not more.

The Armed Forces definitely deserve better.

Please take all my MSP and give me parity any day.Its quite obvious now that money was never an issue with the Armed Forces,only existing status was.

Oddly the Babudom & political class doesnot give a damn about the country or the AF.

But we shouldnot give in, continue our struggle through all means.

Lt Cdr (Written off) said...

Navdeep, please can you throw light on this lines given by Indian Express today :

" The government has decided to put Lt Colonels and their equivalents in pay band IV as demanded by the armed forces after the Sixth Pay Commission report.

The Lt Colonels, numbering around 12,000 in the Indian Army, will get a grade pay of Rs 8,000 per month — less than Rs 8,700 per month a Director-level officer gets and more than the Rs 7,600 a Deputy Secretary gets on the civilian side.

But this increase is only applicable to Lt Cols serving in combat roles in the Indian Army and not those who are on deputation to other services or arms of government."

pongo said...

'Deputation' is the keyword. perhaps it means those in receipt of Deputation Allowance / Pay.

Anonymous said...

What does this mean?
..."But this increase is only applicable to Lt Cols serving in combat roles in the Indian Army and not those who are on deputation to other services or arms of government...."as reported in Indian EXPRESS::http://www.indianexpress.com/news/lt-cols-get-a-new-year-gift/405242/
However NDTV News short and crisp:
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20090078388

Any NEWS regarding DACP foe Defence Doctors?:http://www.mohfw.nic.in/DACP(SAG)2.PDF

Anonymous said...

THERE IS EVERY POSSIBILITY that after few months when things would be cool, our famous CDA(O) will come up with funny excuses (like in MSP issue), that PB4 for LtCOLs will be only authorised to those in FIELD AREAS and not in peace.
Better we press now and DELETE this irrevalent line NOW ITSELF.
Maj Navdeep please help.


What does this mean?
..."But this increase is only applicable to Lt Cols serving in combat roles in the Indian Army and not those who are on deputation to other services or arms of government...."as reported in Indian EXPRESS::http://www.indianexpress.com/news/lt-cols-get-a-new-year-gift/405242/
However NDTV News short and crisp:
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20090078388

Any NEWS regarding DACP for Defence Doctors?:http://www.mohfw.nic.in/DACP(SAG)2.PDF

Anonymous said...

As far as I know, the whole problem started with posting of colonels to the posts held by their junior civilian chaps in MES. This resulted in demand for parity by civilians...in the process the organisation got screwed up nice and proper...We suffered as costomers. I have been told that Majors are now being posted to the posts normally held by Group B civilian, also Lt Cols are being posted to the posts held by JTS grade civilians. Is it groundwork for future pay commissions?

Anonymous said...

Why can't we stop sending officers to these humiliating positions? Do we need permission of babus to do it? We already have huge deficiency in our core units.

Anonymous said...

Gentlemen,we should thank for this "Lt Col-PB4,Partial acceptance" to the people like Lakhvi & party who planned & timed their attack on Mumbai to coincide with with 6th CPC anamollies otherwise this government alongwith baboons is hell bent to degrade the AF to any extent.It is only due to public outrage post Mumbai that this govt has woken up and accepted only one demand out of four legtimate core issues raised by AF.

Anonymous said...

The MSP is to mitigate the pain of stringent Army/AF/Navy Acts vis-a-vis Civilian conuct rules and also to some extent lessen financial losses accruing due to forced early retirement of 80% of officers ie.. at the age of 54 years. So MSP shouldn't be part of discussions while comparing pay of other services. Now talking of only pay band and grade pay; if Lt Col is in PB 4 then should also be given the grade pay of it ie.. 8700. What is this in-between thing of Rs 8000/-????? Why half hearted recognition of armed forces as being part of general government set-up???? Why step motherly treatment???? If it be so, at least permit, those desiring so, to quit .

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

While I accept tha age should be given respect, the same should not be applied one way only.

While the IAS and Civil services view that they need about three to four years seniority over other services and Armed Forces since they enter the service late may be correct at entry and junior levels, that should be applied to the senior ranks of the Armed Forces who pick up their ranks very late.

The IAS is in SAG at 16 years of service with two additional increments. Give for years of seniority in age. That is equivalant to 20 years service of Army Officers. But an army officers becomes Maj gen in 34 years of service.

By that time the IAS is way beyond his reach and wouls have reched Adll Secy or Secy....

Why does the Argument of Age should work here also..

What will happen when the last age for entry into IAS will soon be 25 years as per Administrative reforms Commission.

Then SS officers and IAS entry age will be similar...

This respect to age arguments is not palatable one way and for the advantage of one set of people... only thing is that Politicians need these babus to wash their dirty linen and stash their safes and IPS to cover up their Crimes...

That is the biggest need and logic and truth...IAS / IPS status and superiority is thus based on immorality and and illegeal fuctinal needs rather than administrative and justice administration, functinal needs of the socity. They run and function as "Italian Mafias" and over a period of time will find their own natural places in society. The deterioration has so far been alarming and market economy has brought some changes. Need for specialisations for attaining greater incomes and thereby greater status has had some impact and is likely to more pronounced in future.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

While evry one around may be fully or half happy with this outcome, there is no reson for Armed Forces to cheer about.

The real functional levels when Armed forces Officers start interacting with the Civilian counterparts, is Colonet and beyond.

Col and Brig ranks stand fully downgraded vide this CPC.

Lt Gens rank officers need to coordinate things at state amd Ministirial levels. There can be many functional problems by Not granting them SAG+.

Maj functional problems are there... at those levels...

Lt Col issue basically is morale, izzat and monetary issues ... Col and above are real functinal issues..

Anonymous said...

Rank of Col(TS) on completing 20 yrs reckonable service on implementation of AVSC -2?
Anybody any NEWS?

Anonymous said...

What will be the impact on the pay of serving full Cols?

Surinder said...

At the risk of inviting brick-bats from other bloggers here, I must venture a suggestion: why should we not reject the acceptance of PB-4 for LtCols/Equivs since the parity of LtGens/equivs is being degraded?
I mean, come on, guys these people have to interact with their civilian counterparts. If the babu lobby ensure, by means of this cheap trick, that LtGens/equivs end up junior to that counterpart, are we all not getting degraded too? I think this Govt and its bureaucrat stooges need to be voted out of power because they are behaving like slimy b@#$(@#&s !! Shameful!

Anonymous said...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/lt-co ... ft/405242/

New Delhi: It’s official. There is New Year cheer for the armed forces with the UPA Government agreeing to increase the salaries of Lt Colonel and equivalent by upgrading their pay band and hiking their grade pay.

While accepting the recommendations of the pay panel headed by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, the Prime Minister’s Office told the Defence Ministry that the armed forces’ proposal for an increase in salaries of the Lieutenant Generals — by creating a separate band of Higher Administrative Grade plus — has been rejected. This decision was conveyed to the Defence Ministry on December 30. The Ministry has been told that the new package is non-negotiable.

Sources told The Indian Express that the government has decided to put Lt Colonels and their equivalents in pay band IV as demanded by the armed forces after the Sixth Pay Commission report.

The Lt Colonels, numbering around 12,000 in the Indian Army, will get a grade pay of Rs 8,000 per month — less than Rs 8,700 per month a Director-level officer gets and more than the Rs 7,600 a Deputy Secretary gets on the civilian side.


But this increase is only applicable to Lt Cols serving in combat roles in the Indian Army and not those who are on deputation to other services or arms of government. The government has already resolved the pension issue of the personnel below officer ranks (PBORs) by accepting the demands of the armed forces.

In his recommendation to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Mukherjee has written a detailed note refuting the contentious demands of the armed forces including parity of status with Director General of Police rank for all 88 Lieutenant Generals in the Indian Army.

Anonymous said...

Seems to me that the pooch is utterly screwed.

Lt Gens junior to DGPs.

LtCols in PB4, but for all practical purposes non functionally. No PB4 on deputation, no PB4 in peace areas.

Grade Pay degraded.

What is wrong with this govt.?

Will the service chiefs resign now?

IndianACE said...

@Surinder 1.22 pm

There is no need to be defensive on your part. It is a welcome suggestion. Unfortunately, we are a very shaky and mistrusting lot. Having observed the entire gamut of discussion on this blog ove the past few months and the first hand experience in service over 1? years, I will be surprised if 5 percent among us can think beyond our noses.

I can foresee the Armed forces scrounging for peanuts and dirty infighing occurs. Did you guys see the newsscroll on the Times NOW channel-
"UPA agrees to pay Lt Cols more"

The biggest news group of the country states that we ought to be grateful to a political party.

SHAME, and more will follow for sure as the baboons slice us down into salami slices and ultimately ground us to dust.

I hope, instead of asking Navdeep to explain the news statement, we have a telephone no. on which the brasspots can answer lest we keep groping in the dark and rumours prevail.

Anonymous said...

Then again, the express has been at the forefront of the anti military propaganda campaign. So it is quite possible that this report is just trash.

Anonymous said...

Govt approves seperate pay commission for armed forces


1 Jan, 2009, 1321 hrs IST, AGENCIES


Print EMail Discuss Share Save Comment Text:



NEW DELHI: In a major New year bonanza for the armed forces, the Prime Minister's Office has informed the Defence Ministry that the armed forces perForces that tackled terrorists
sonnel would henceforth have a separate pay commission, which is delinked from the civilian pay panel.

In a communication to the Defence Ministry the PMO also granted the demand for placing 12,000 odd Lieutenant Colonels under equivalence in Navy and Air Force in the pay band four of the sixth central pay commission.

Last week the chiefs of the Army, the Navy and the Air Force met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh discussed the pay and service conditions in the armed forces against the backdrop of dissatisfaction over the Pay Commission’s recommen- dations.

“The three services chiefs met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in New Delhi this afternoon. The meeting lasted for about an hour. Service matters, including the recommendations of the Pay Commission, were discussed and the Prime Minister was briefed on the prevailing security situation,” said a PMO statement.

In September the armed forces said they had no differences with the government, amid reports that Defence Minister A K Antony had conveyed his unhappiness over their unprecedented refusal to implement the pay commission notification and got them around to accept the revised salaries temporarily.

Cdr Tyagi said...

The partial acceptance smacks of evil design by the babudom in that they managed to get an upper hand on higher echelons of Armed Forces, who are popularly called Defence Forces for some funny reason. The Armed Forces must now stand up and be counted by rejecting this formulation which is bound to adversely affect the functional equation. Having said that let me also put the record straight that this state of affairs is the result of our own senior officers licking the **** of babus at various levels to get files pushed and approved and this has given these babus the guts to treat us like this.

The political class is unlikely to be helpful unless a tough stand is taken by teh Services at the heighest level.

Zahl Tantra said...

The New Year has been welcomed in the manner befitting it. Foe me in person, the economics of getting an enhanced pay packet matter. even if one has work with a SP/SSP - with whatever GP pay people are screaming their heads off for - he'll still not do it your way. Its the truth - atleast acknowledge someone's hard work in getting you a substantial raise AFTER the award and the wife won't complain about the extra bucks. Thanks Navdeep. But one more thing - where is the official confirmation. Presently its all over the media but no where on any GOI site. Any leads to such a site , Navdeep ?

DSR said...

Dear Maj Navdeep
How much pension a Lt Col retired after 01.01.06 will get?
Lt Col DS Rathore (Retd)

Lt Col IM Dejected, D/76 said...

@Tantra.
If I had to earn the extra bucks for the wife, there are a million ways to do it and leading men into battle is hardly the most appropriate if not evidently stupid. So, I guess you are not in this business.

@Navdeep
The whole issue was of parity. That battle has been lost.

We have almost welcomed your pathetic homily. Yet, the history of pay commissions in bringing the commissioned officer a notch lower has been achieved for the sixth time. You have played the important role in making us feel wanted even in utter defeat at the hands of not our enemies but our own head of govt. (The distinction, however, is getting blurred)

In rage I might blurt: give me my rightful grade pay and give my MSP to the secretaries and PM babu, for it will be them who may now bear arms for the country.
But, we know that is not the soldier's way. The soldier's way is to simply to soldier on. Grade or degrade.
So the challenge is to remain motivated - as much for the country and our men as for ourselves.


As for the Chiefs who evidently gave in despite a clear articulation in the beginning, are not helping at all.The fact is that the Chiefs and Army Cdrs have, like the AIS, won for themselves defacto OROP and have let the others flounder. The first ones to hang from Raisana should be these gentlemen.

Anonymous said...

sir,
What is the rider in the news as to pb4 applicsble only to LtCols on combat duty only? Does it mean Arms and Services LtCols will be in different paybands? Also LtCols On deputation will be in pb3?
In case the above is correct the mandarins in south block have managed to create a rift in the Army too.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep
Accept a warm greetings from this fauji, well some gain is made in approval of PB-4 for Ltcols,but they still stand no where near to our demand of parity with Director/Commandants in PMFs.
Well you made a well research arguments and Comdt BP Singh fought on lighter details that Ltcols are now commanding less no. of jawans.
It is a mix bag of results.
The fight will still go on.

Anonymous said...

congrats to all. whats this news about separate panel for armed forces. also any word on grade pay revision for major and equiv.

Anonymous said...

@ALL..

there is nothing gr8 in this news...now we r officially doomed...

@navdeep sir..

ur effort to put it up positively is good..but honestly we ve lost the fight..

the only way out is faster promotions..WE NEED AVSC-3 NOW....

Anonymous said...

It is a tight slap on the faces of the top brass of the AF. They deserve it and much more. More often than not they are always bothered about themselves and care two hoots about their subordinates/juniors. Blaming the IAS babus is just one way of trying to divert attention from the wrong doings of this senior lot. The babus by way of AVSC I & II always wanted more officers to make it to the next rank. It is our slime balls who tinker with it to do injustice to our own officers. While all the PMF wanted their juniors to be put in PB4 it was only the AF which wanted a separate pay band for cols and above. The PMF wanted well for their juniors and having got it, they in turn also moved up the PB. A lesson which are selfish senior officers should learn at least now.

Harry said...

@ All Service Bro

This needs to be OUTRIGHTLY REJECTED!! Period !

Now there's is talk of another Committee to determine status and comd and cont issues. what a pathetic state of affairs. What were GoM doing for more than 3 months? Typical Babugiri at work! Hiding behind committees to delay/skirt issues which are prima facie genuine! Shame on this Govt!

Anonymous said...

To my knowledge the junior lot of officers have never been bothered about status. A ltcol/cdr/wcdr are in the thick of operations and have no time to think of such issues. It is only the senior lot of officers posted in peace stations who are bothered about status. The whole twist to the parity in status issue came up because of the Lt.Gen's being placed at a lower status then the DGP. The Lt.col status issue was racked up (25,000 officers)to pull wool over the eyes of the IAS babus as the number of Lt.Gen rank officers does'nt even befit taking up this issue. The top brass of the AF is used to taking orders from the babus & taking orders from the DGP should not be seen as something derogatory.

Heretic said...

Dear Navdeep,
Kindly post something to clarify this matter of PB4 applicable to Combat Roles only.

warrior said...

dear Navdeep you have put this pb4& 8000 issue very positively but this has been cleverly disguised as with this still the status of Lt col is lower than Cmmandant and functional problem remains which was the basis of this whole issue.Moreover as the report suggest that on deputation this is not applicable which means that an individual will on deputation to CPMO will join at 7600 at par with 2ic where as in 5cpc they use to join minimum at 15100 2 increments above the starting of commandants.So the situuation remains grim and I dont fin any reason to be ahppy or any reason to accept this porposal

Yogander Singh said...

It is indeed a big win in one crucial battle but the war remains yet to be won. However with Lt Cols in PB-4 (Mainly thanks to yeoman's service rendered by Maj Navdeep), the time has come for us to take the war forward by focusing on many related issues, for which solution may lie with-in or without. Some of the issues which merit immediate attention are:
(a) Why should MSP be same for those serving in `services' and those in infantry?
(b) Why should Army, which is facing a massive shortage of officers at Lt to Lt Col level depute officers to essentially civilian organisations like BRO, MES, DRDO, NSG and so on? I have no issue with Col to Lt Gen rank officers being deputed or seconded but why those who should be serving in units?
(c)Why should it take nearly two years to establish armed forces tribunal?
(d) How can we bring in maximum objectivity and transparency in administration of the Army (need to keep operational aspects safe and secure is well taken)?

Anonymous said...

Dear anon at 5.29, please dont talk twaddle. If it wasnt for your seniors, you wouldnt be anywhere.

Anonymous said...

I second what Anony 6.40 has said. whatever we have got,whether less or more, we should not forget CNS who fought for us

Anonymous said...

'But this increase is only applicable to Lt Cols serving in combat roles in the Indian Army and not those who are on deputation to other services or arms of government' what does this means!

Anonymous said...

Dear Yogander at 6.26Pm
Please grow up and do not talk of services and inftary at this forum.It shows how shallow is knowledge of IA.

Rajax said...

@ Navdeep

I think you are wrong in assuming that the issue could ever be rejected outright. Even an idiot will not be convinced considering the facts. We expected the proposal to be implemented in the entirety. You as a lawyer should know better.

Dear All,

As far as I am concerned it should be ALL OR NOTHING.

@ anony at 5:43

Wg Cdrs are running the Air Force my dear. If I work to rule,the Babus will cry. Believe me. I am in a position where I can squeeze real bad. It is just that I have sworn allegiance to the Constitution and do not go down to their levels.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Rajax.

The issue has till date not been rejected my dear. In fact even PB-4to Lt Cols is an interim measure since a Committee is going to be set up to look into inter se relativities of Military and Civil officers. Though I personally feel that the GoM should have gone into all aspects, still it is good to know that pertinent issues stay alive and open to redressal. As a 'lawyer' - as opined by you, my bounden duty is to present facts in the correct perspective, the decision makers sit elsewhere. If you are accusing me of sounding positive, I can't help it. Had we gone with the negativity expressed by people on various fora, PB-4 was an impossible dream, with or without riders. But it did come through, didn't it ? We'll tackle all other obstacles as they are placed before us.

Anonymous said...

Navdeep! Thanks a lot for highlighing the military point of view in a very befitting manne. Thanks all the Chiefs for their best endeavour to bring the major core issue to the notice of highest authorities. There is no end for desire, quench the one, another crop grew. Majority of officers are satisfied though not to full extent. But in this blog, there are many who will never be satisfied, even if the govt give them PB5.
It is beause of you navdeep, that an awareness was generated and brought the anomolies in a convincing manner .

Anonymous said...

@Maj Navdeep

What would be pension of lt col (RVC,AMC etc ) who were drawing 25%NPA and retired in 1995. My father is an affected pensioner.

Kindly clarify,

Thanks

Anonymous said...

This is again proved that, the 6th pay commission was MADE BY OFFICERS FOR THE OFFICERS. The Commanders of Indian NAVY(Lt cols)are drawing a gross pay of 85,000.00 per month only for passing foolish orders and doing nothing whereas the technical lot sailors (Mostly artificers)who actually runs the navy in its real capability is paid 18,000.00 per month.
Who will answer 4 the same
No one!!
Higher authorities headed by the officers will never look at this.
Because everyone is concern with their up gradation from PB-3 to PB-4. Then Who will bother the middle class artificers with a grade pay of 3400/-, which is neither PB-1 nor PB-2
ie The artificers were made fools by giving a lower status among the Junior CPOs

We are like prisoners!
We cant say any \thing!
Nobody listens us!
If somebody opens their mouth, It means he will be screwed like any thing!!!!!!!!!!

these all are simple examples how sailors are being screwed in INDIAN NAVY

Anonymous said...

What has told is very right. It is not in the case of Artificer of INDIAN NAVY the same happens with MER Sailors. Every one says that Sailors are the BACK BONE OF NAVY, we people are actually executing the job, but when time comes for re-pay, OFFICERS are ahead of us and project as they are the back bone of INDIAN NAVY.

You can see the gap of pay between OFFICERS and SAILORS which is mentioned . In any other country of World does not have this much of differanes in their pay.

I mean to say Differances to be redused between Officers and sailors/ Jawan regarding PAY.

Anonymous said...

Hi Every one,
So finally something is spoken about Defence personnel, but what surprises me is"whenever they spoke, they spoke only about the Col/Lt Col or their couterpart in Civil or Paramilitary forces i never came across something they spoke about those poor and always neglected lot of EX-SERVICEMEN PBORS..it seems ARMED FORCES menas only Officers..not their Soldiers, who actually make the"FORCE",Its a pity,that despite repeated pleas, no one seems to have paid any heed to their genuine greavances. Shall i remind, this platform is not for personal greavances,We should discuss matter that benefits every one.I am still waiting to hear from our government"as to what are these poor"veterans"from( ARMY, AIRFORCE & NAVI), going to get after so much of delays & so much hue & cry over the issue.
Regards.

Anonymous said...

Great job by Navdeep.Max credit should go to you for creating so much awareness.

Anonymous said...

about TA/DA ON TY DUTY ....what about the most important issue of choosing to stay in officers mess on ty duty? what do u do? reimburse Rs 90 per day ?? issue needs urgent clarification.......same for civilians staying in pwd / government resthouses etc. .. there needs to be a lumpsum, no bills required, flat rate of DA as well....any thoughts...? this whole idea of hotels and bills raises several questions....

Anonymous said...

Guys,
Don't undermine the whole community of the Defence Forces. Don't think that the PBOR issue has not been raised by the Officers. Remeber the Maslows theory of Heirarchy. Only when your own needs are satisfied will you think of others needs. So starting from the top when the major issues concerning the officers are getting redressed by the authorities, they will get some time to persue cases of the lower ranks. Dont get antagonised with the fact that only these issue has gained the media attention. These are just the four core issues. the rest of them are aplenty and are being taken up with anamolies committee and the third committee. I suggest be one as a group and u can achieve much more than what you can achieve as divided factions. There are people who work under me in the IAF who are agrieved by the Gp 'X' issue. we've taken up the matter too.
Have patience. I'm sure that the 6pc which took 2.5 years to screwup the entire PC report will take atleast one year to turn it around having many a foe in the MOD who feel that the uniformed people have scuffled a few feathers and defied the Babudome. The Freinds of the services like Maj Navdeep / Shiv aroor and many others are raking up the issues that deserve attention. Lets say a Big thanks to them.
Any ways Wishing Navdeep and all the people on this blog 'A VERY HAPPY AND A PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR@

Anonymous said...

The way comments r pouring in, this latest post might break record for most no of comments

Mave

Anonymous said...

It is almost impossible to rate what is a "Combat and non combat colonel. A colonel is not a kentucky fried chicken that he can come battered/roasted/fried or any other way you like. All colonels are colonels. All army officers remain army officers whether on deputation or not. So how can we make a distinction between the lot of them?

This is another screwy ploy to mess with service officers.

pawan said...

My dear PBORs,
It will be incorrect and totally biased to say that nobody ever took up the issue of PBORs. Some of the important issues successfully taken up have been :-

-70% pension.
-Doubling up of MSP.
-Assured three promotions.
-Lateral absorption of PBORs.

Elders and Seniors can only help you if they are respected and have a say or standing in the system. Issues of Lt Cols and above upto Lt Gen has been very glaring and sensitive. You will agree that if your boss is insulted and is unhappy you can never be happy under his command. It is also true that it is humanly impossible to keep every body happy at the same time. However each one of us must work sincerely, put across our problems and points in a systematic and logical manner at the appropriate forum. I am sure Out of 10 points you will see that at least 3 to 4 points will definitely be acted upon. I am sure you would agree that even parents cant meet all the demands of their children, it does not mean they do not love them or they do not matter at all. In fact parents and managers existance is because of children and the staff respectively. I sincerely hope that hereafter all PBORs will put across their points or observations without any bad feelings. This blog is being read by people of different stature and your valid and justified observation will definitely be acted upon in due course. Dont forget whatever we are enjoying is the result of few people who are working tirelessly and selflessly for the sake of a better organisation. Wishing ALL JAWANs, JCOs, OFFICERs AND THEIR EQUIVALENTS IN THE AF AND NAVY AND THEIR FAMILIES " A VERY HAPPY, PROSPEROUS AND REWARDING NEW YEAR " I also thank Maj Navtej for providing us this wonderful platform to share our views.

Anonymous said...

Dear All,
I believe that the battle has been won, but not the war. There is no point blaming the politicians and the bureaucrats for doing what they have been doing well till now, and that is, obfuscating the facts, taking recourse to 'collective amnesia' and ensuring, through wilful malevolence, their writ and 'zone of comfort'. That is their nature.
All said and done, there is a need for us to carry the issue forward....I totally believe that our quest for izzat should not end at the first step, but, as with all our endeavours, be carried on to its logical and inevitable conclusion. This task we leave to the wisdom and the integrity of our seniors. I am sure they will not let us down.
The angst of our junior officers, as with our seniors are understandable, and to get us our rightful place, should be taken to the desired out-come with 'josh and hosh'. The 'hosh' part is again the indisputable responsibility of our seniors.
I am also sure that Navdeep's contributions have been immeasurable, and we owe it to us to put it on record, here and in all other fora. Please keep this in mind...all of u.
It is also not the time for intra-service and intra arms and sevices wranglings to rear it's ugly and unnecessary head - remember, we are in it together, for better and worse, in the best traditions of the organisation we love so well. It would be the joy of the powers that be to encourage such divisive sentiments
From my side, a humble thanx to Navdeep, as I have already acknowledged in my post else-where.
And for all of you out there from the AF, do remember that u and your men will always be looked up to by a grateful nation, as long as we deliver, as we have had till now.
The decision to set up a committee to look into all aspects of 'status' is an opportunity for us to carry our case forward, but a lot will hang on the composition of this 'committee' and the inputs we provide it. Let us not fail here.
As far as the formation of a separate pay-commission is concerned, it is a double-edged sword that can do us more harm than good, if we do not handle it with due diligence. To ensure that we handle this correctly, we have to identify, prepare and finalise our arguements, marshal our facts, and come up with innovative suggestions right from NOW.
Jai hind

Anonymous said...

@ anony 11 pm,

u'd make it to highest rank i'd say.
another committe is bull shit.

if pm / GoM cant decide in three months , what will another committe do?

dont be under any illussion, we've been had, again, but with some money thrown, so that we as pros******* can have a good nights sleep.

mave

Anonymous said...

Why can't we stop sending officers to these humiliating positions? Do we need permission of babus to do it? We already have huge deficiency in our core units.

I totally agree with anonymous.......if there is so much of shortage of officers in the parent corps then why these people are being sent to organisations like MES and BRO. Do we really need these officers in such non-combat departments where less COSTLY officers and subordinates are sufficient to carry out the job. Please ask those army officers who are working in MES and BRO as to why they are happily working on posts lower than their status??? Army officers need self retrospection. U cant have the cake and eat it too..........

Anonymous said...

Does thia PB-4 is also applicable to a tenure officers in DGQA?

Anonymous said...

Does Army Need MES and BRO. In Uttarakhand where there is project Deepak, it is the most notorious, unpolular and anti people organisation guzzling public fund and doing nothing.... No improvements in roads. The state PWD is up in Arms aginst it as BRO is minting money w/o any accountability to any one. At least the local agencies are responsible to the local govt and people can put some pressure on local govt. Project deepak is neither doing any thing for Defence nor for public. It is only filling cofers of Ministers in the center.

Similarily, MES is an unaccountable organisations only meant for Flag Staff houses. MES maintained proerties are the most pathetic in the Country. They are famous for looting the serving officers in the name of rent, firniture, electricity and water. MES instead of maintaining assets is famous for taking away all from the structures.

MES is no where as comapred to CPWD, not even 10 per cent. What has the organisation achieved by sending serving officers there? Serving Engr Officers are more apathetic to the organisation than their counterparts.

In the entir cantt the only building maintained is flagstaff house. Even seen PBOR accomodation and its state. The E-in-C is happy with empire building only. How many times has been pulled up for bad state of accomodation.


These organisations need to be disbanded. Why should BRO be building roads when local agencies and contractors can do the job.??

Anonymous said...

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=TOI&BaseHref=TOIM/2009/01/02&PageLabel=15&EntityId=Ar00103&DataChunk=Ar01504&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T

Armed forces to have separate pay panel
TIMES NEWS NETWORK
New Delhi: With armed forces often complaining about being given step-motherly treatment by successive pay commissions which, they feel, are dominated by civil service interests, the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) has decided that the three services will have a dedicated panel to decide their salary issues.
The PMO has informed the defence ministry that the pay panel will be de-linked from the pay commission that looks into the salary revisions of central government employees. If initial reactions are any indication, the decision has been received with mixed emotions as details of the pay commission’s functioning are unclear.
Although a long-pending demand of the forces, the move does not bring any immediate cheer to the army, navy and the air force as the next pay commission will come along only after ten years.
As for now, while the government has agreed to restore the 70% pensionary weightage for jawans on retirement, it has attached a conditionality to placing Lt-Colonel rank officers and their equivalents in the navy (Commander) and the IAF (Wing Commander) in the higher pay band of PB-4. WAITING FOR PAYBACK
The order on a separate pay panel fails to cheer forces
Govt to restore the 70% pensionary weightage for jawans on retirement, but sets terms on placing Lt-Col rank officers in higher pay band
Govt silent on demand for uniform grade pay for civilian and military officers Govt mum on core pay demands
New Delhi: The Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) has, in a communication to the defence ministry, said that only those Lt-Colonels serving in combat roles will be placed under the PB-4 category. The Lt-Cols on deputation to other services will receive PB-4 status only when they return to their parent service.
“We have received no official communication from the defence ministry until now. But this seems to mean that an officer posted in South Block or is on deputation to an organization like the Assam Rifles will not get PB-4 status. It’s ridiculous,’’ said an angry senior officer. The main grouse of the forces revolves around the fact that the extant parity of Lt-Cols has been lowered by retaining them in PB-3 (Rs 15,600-39,100), while similarly placed civilians and paramilitary officers have been raised to PB-4 (Rs 37,400-67,000). Lt-Col rank officers, after all, form the backbone of the 55,000-strong officer cadre, numbering 18,950.
To top it all, the defence ministry is silent on the fate of the other two “core demands’’ of the armed forces—placement of all Lt-Generals in the new “higher administrative grade plus’’ category on par with police DGPs and uniform grade pay for military officers and civilian officers—amid strong indications that they have been summarily rejected.
For the last six-seven months, the armed forces have been pleading with the government that their extant parity with their civilian and paramilitary counterparts has been “destroyed’’ by the new revised pay scales under the 6th Pay Commission. The hopes of the armed forces had been rekindled after the PM constituted the three-member ministerial committee headed by foreign minister Pranab Mukherjee in September to look into their four “core demands’’. But the “piecemeal’’ decision of the government now, after Mukherjee submitted the report, has left the forces stunned. The PMO, however, has declared that it will set up a committee to review the command and control functions, and the status of the armed forces vis-a-vis that of their civilian and paramilitary counterparts. TNN
Lt Gen Thamburaj is army’s vice-chief
New Delhi: Lieutenant General Noble Thamburaj on Thursday assumed office as the new vice-chief of army staff. Lt Gen Thamburaj takes over from Lt Gen M L Naidu, who retired from service on Wednesday, the defence ministry said. Commissioned in 1969 into Bombay Sappers, Lt Gen Thamburaj, a second-generation officer, is an alumnus of the National Defence Academy. Before taking over as the vice-chief, the general officer was the army’s southern commander. AGENCIES

Anonymous said...

navdeep sir
fight has just started
i think the Naval Chief played a major role for getting this parity

i think we have a long way ahead

anonymous

Anonymous said...

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/AC7C2992CFE55BA265257531004A4BC1?OpenDocument

Confusion persists over PMO letter on forces' pay New Delhi, Jan 1 (PTI) Hours after the announcement of a separate pay commission for the armed forces and inclusion of Lieutenant Colonels in Pay Band-4, defence officers in the services headquarters here feel that more clarity was needed on the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) letter before it could be implemented in its present form.
In the absence of a formal notification, a separate pay panel for the armed forces may just remain a proposal till the next pay commission, which is likely to be set up only a decade from now, they feel.

However, top government sources said that it was just a matter of time before the government notifies the decisions and implements them.

With regard to Lt Cols finding themselves in Pay Band-4 (Rs 37,400-67,000), officers say the differentiation between "combat" and "non-combat" roles was not defined in the Services and hence it would be difficult to deny the pay band to just some of the Lt Cols.

While on deputation to other services, the Lt Cols continued to be armed forces officers, and hence not providing Pay Band-4 for those serving the country in departments other than the defence forces was not practical, they say.

Regarding parity of grade pay for officers from Captains to Brigadiers, the Services wondered if there was any other committee high powered to decide on the issue than the one headed by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, which currently looking into the issues raised by them. PTI

Anonymous said...

Look at the positive impact of PB-4 in 13 years of service.
Some of you guys , the NDA lots will be entering PB-4 when you are just 35 years old ans continue to be in PB-4 for 15 years even if you retire as Col...

Your Conterpart in IAS / IPS will be only 5 years to six years of service pb-3 (Average entry being 29 to 30 years) when you enter PB-4. When an IAS enters PB-4, an NDA uneducated would have already drawn seven to eight increments in PB-4. After that he will take over Arywalas only in grade Pay and will barely catch up in Pay by about 28 years of service due to better increments in better garde pay.

Look this is a great achivement for the Forces. No a mean upliftment.

So far it being allicable to Arms only..that should be acceptable to most. It will result in better intake for Arms and more volunteers at intake levels. more Officers will join Arms like Infantry and Artillary. They will also have a place of pride amongst Forces being the Comabt Officers.

That is also very good for the organisation. A Maj Gen on promotion will always be senior to Jt Sec at least in Pay scale. So will be a colonel always senior to the dirctor even if he picks his col rank in 15 years... nearer to the director..

I feel only Front Line fighting Forces only desrve this masive jump.. in pay and status...

Rest is your own openion.. but ponder over it..

Jai Hind...

Anonymous said...

@annony..3:41....

dont talk crap...v get into nda at 16/17 yrs of age..so it is taking 17 yrs to reach pb4 that too with degraded status...

all bullshit...

Anonymous said...

@Ano above..

a soldier 12th pass also gets into army at 17 18 years of age..

There is no end to these arguments..

What is crap does not depend on you.. it is better to stay on logical and rational arguments...

Thanking you...

sailor said...

Comments of anony 3:41, anony 3:58 and anony 4:14 show that these babus have achieved their aim of creating rift among the defence personnel. guys, please do not fall prey to nefarious designs of these babus. its the time to stay united. do not fight among yourselves, or else u will be helping the cause of these babus.
regards
sailor

Anonymous said...

@ anon above,
it is because of cockeyed views like yours parroted as rational that we have come to such a pass
lets hope to god there is no war as babudom has almost crippled the morale of the forces

Harry said...

@ Anony @ 3:41 and 4:14

With Stalwart(s) like U in the Org do we need enemies outside?

May God give U some power to think RIGHT !

Anonymous said...

The financial aspects are importanrt but perhaps more important is your status. This has been proved to me, personally atleast, after this news today that Lt Col have been placed in PB-4 but with a grade pay of 8000. What is this nonsense. The news did not do anything to remove the dejection which was there. Sad part is it has been happening systematically over the years. Initial hue and cry by the media and the stand taken by our Chiefs had raised some hopes of getting some justice for the Armed Forces. But at the end of the day nothing much changed. Babudom has managed to show us our place - which the Armed Forces have somehow been accepting over the years. I feel it is time our service chiefs resign over the matter.

Anonymous said...

@all....

i m waiting for the chiefs to resign...

Anonymous said...

why do u want chiefs to resign? dum hai to khud resign karo...

Anonymous said...

about TA/DA ON TY DUTY ....what about the most important issue of choosing to stay in officers mess on ty duty? what do u do? reimburse Rs 90 per day ?? issue needs urgent clarification.......same for civilians staying in pwd / government resthouses etc. .. there needs to be a lumpsum, no bills required, flat rate of DA as well....any thoughts...? this whole idea of hotels and bills raises several questions....

Anonymous said...

@anonymous 01:01pm 1jan 2009, asenior,lt.col will draw more pay than a just promoted col. or even more than aBRIG. caluculate.

Rajax said...

@ Anony @ January 3, 2009 8:15 AM

May God give you some malloom. The Cols will be getting/ should get 2 increments (over and above the highest paid Lt Col) on picking up their ranks and the Brigs will get another 2 increments when they pick up their rank. Pls use your brains.That is what the Babus were afraid of in the first place.

Anonymous said...

Anony 3.41 is really a crap as stated by anony3.58 & anony 4.14 wake up .If you are of the group you will understand the language otherwise just keep your PC on hold& dont waste your time on our future plans .If the need be we will do what Krishna Mennon could have never imagined (this is where the rot started ) Ajax good ,good reading but have better control, what requires to be done will be done & has to be done , only our people shuld know that we are on the job, its important ,PBOR - you are our power,how can we forget you , is there more to say --- ?Harry is right there are some moles who have to be found & fixed

Harry said...

@ Rajax

Bro, pls explain to me will it be 1 increment upon promotion or 2 (as u mentioned) be it for Col or Brig.. I think it shd be 1, am I wrong?

LT COL R K SINGH (C/63) said...

Dear Friends,
1. I have gone through all the comments posted on this blog.
2. In almost all the comments, we have been comparing ourselves with the IAS Offrs.
3. While I am aware of plenty of ex-service offrs ( Short service types) joining the IAS/IPS and hundreds struggling to join , I have not come across any IAS Offr who has left his service to join the forces !
4. Ask any OTA/IMA Direct Entry, and we would know that most of them joined the forces after failing to make it to the IAS.
5. Let us carry out an introspection before wasting our breath in comparing with the IAS.
6. We have a special posn in the society. Our role has always been revered.Let's maintain it.
Regards,
Lt Col R K Singh ( C/63)

Heretic said...

@ LT COL R K SINGH (C/63)
IAS is more attractive and therefore there will be obviously tougher competition for the same. If there is more competition, one has to concede that IAS will get better material. However, this is not to say that IAS is automatically more deserving to be maintained as the most attractive/lucrative service.
To clarify it further, let us hypothetically make the most ‘undeserving’ service the most attractive, obviously that best will go there. But to conclude from this hypothetical scenario that this most ‘undeserving service’ deserves that the best because it is most sought after and the best talent is going for it… don’t you think the logic is getting twisted somewhere?

If at all anything is indicated by the relative rush of people to join IAS is that the demand and supply situation dictates that there is enough ‘demand’ for IAS and one can afford to reduce the ‘supply’ (of perks, salary etc). The demand and supply situation of the job market may dictate that the jobs which are not in demand need to made more attractive.

Anonymous said...

dear navdeep can you please clarify on fixation of pension for officers retired betwween 01 jan 06 to 01 sep 08 since the notification states that 50% of basic+gp+msp will not be given but old formulae wiil be used.Donot you think it discriminatory.
One more clarification on whether officers retired brtween 01 jan 06 to 01 sep 08 are entitled for gratuity of 3.5 laks or 10 laks.

Anonymous said...

I have been posted to DGQA without my consent.

two questions, is this posting a DEPUTATION where I will not get pb4. secondly, is the MS branch required to seek my consent for such a posting

Anonymous said...

How long will it take for the govt to notify PB-4 for Lt Cols ? Will it be delayed till the next financial year ? Is the govt going to wait for the PM to take a decision on "combatant" Lt Cols ?

krishanlaljaspal said...

Major Navdeep, you are doing excellent job of providing information.
I have all my doubts “Lt Col finally in higher pay band 4 serving and retired officers will get what it is said to be so, unless gazette notification is published? As you know, there are still ifs and buts of deputationists, peace/field service and if it so for all of them, it is most doubt for pensioners. Could you further clarify on this matter and provide info on gazette publication.
Lt. Col. K L Jaspal

Anonymous said...

For Maj Navdeep

Could you please let us know when the pensions pre 96 retiree lt col will begin to get their pensions based on PB 4 scales.
Thanks

Anonymous said...

Dear all, I am a civilian who was selected in army IMA and did not join.By chance I read all these comments on less pay and parity with IAS and all.I went for IAS and ultimately after years of struggle could not get through. See this parity with IAS is not possible because i felt walking in CDS was cake walk but IAS clearing is like hell. We all know realities of life. Let us see things in totality, if army looks hungry and shouting for money , it leads to lessening of respect for them. is army officer job is greater than a doctor or a colonel job is more complex than a space scientist. ask a few questions, I think the pay hike as i have read in detail and pay structure from independence is my PHD topic, the raise is good enough or army.
If army officer cannot make money through corruption that a civilian can make than please see the plight in CBI anti corruption courts where lives are ruined due to bribes of a few thousand.
we gain some, we lose some this is life.
regards

Anonymous said...

hey Navdeep,
i have just been introduced to your blog... finally...and i would like to thank you for all your inputs.
one question about retired offrs. my uncle retired in 1969 as a wing commander.will his pension also start at the rate mentioned in your blog on which i am commenting.
would appreciate responses from any one.
thanks

Anonymous said...

The chest swollen officers passing out who barely get to read papers in the academy... Get demoralised reading all these things happening around the country..thanks to catch them young and make fools out of them...

Anil said...

Hi everyone,

Officers of the defence services have been demanding parity with Civil Servants like IAS/IPS/IFS officers. But they have taken an oath to take care of the nation first, subordinates second and only thereafter of themselves. In that respect, they are performing their first obligation well. But what about the second one? Are they not able to take up the issues of parity of PBORs with their civilian counterparts before taking up their own parity with IAS officers? The discrimination after the 6th pay commission is as follows: -

For example, A person joins the Air Force in the PBOR grade in the rank of AC. His pay scale is 5200-20200 with GP of 2000. Next promotion is LAC with no difference in GP. After 5 years, he becomes a Corporal (CPL) with grade pay 2400. In 13 and 1/2 years of total service he becomes a Sergeant (Sgt) with GP 2800. Next promotion of JWO ranges between 17 years to 31 years to get a grade pay of 4200. Next promotion is for WO with GP 4600 and next MWO with GP 4800 and that is the end of the career of 40 years. a lucky few gets promoted to officer cadres in the last year of their service. when we look at the civilian counterparts, one who joins at the grade pay of 2400 is promoted to the next pay scale of Assistant with GP-4600 in just 5 years! Next promotion comes with GP-4800 in 8 years. Next one with GP-5400 in just 4 years and he is already in the pay scale of PB-3. He gets atleast three assured promotions more in the GP of 6100, 6600 and 7600. Some also are promoted to the GP of 8700. What a disparity? A soldier who joins in PB-1 hardly crosses PB-2 in 40 years while in 40 years of service of a civilian employee, starting from PB-1, he joins PB-4 initial grades. Do something for us before taking up parity with IAS officers.

Anonymous said...

The deputy secretaries are in PB 3, whereas directors in the ministry are in PB 4, though both the positions have been and are at equal footing as far as duties and functions are concerned. There is urgent need to bring deputy secretaries also in pb 4.