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Monday, January 12, 2009

High time this mudslinging in mixed organisations should end !

First a request. The chat box in the last few days has witnessed some real unethical talk, impersonations and personal attacks. If this continues, the chat box shall be removed altogether. Even comments on some posts leave much to be desired and hence shall be moderated from today onwards. Though fair & unbiased criticism shall remain welcome, personal attacks and harsh language would not be published.

As stated in an earlier post, the announcement of PB-4 for Lt Cols is not the end of the story. A committee is going to examine status, parity, command & control issues which would set(tle) the course for the future.

Notwithstanding the long struggle for officers of the three services from March onwards when the 6th CPC report was presented to the Ministry of Finance, the occasional outburst of civil officers from mixed organisations against officers from the military is unfortunate if not worrisome. It also points to a deeper malaise of certain sections of the set-up being diametrically opposed to the restoration of glory of the forces. To take an example, officers of the Indian Defence Service of Engineers (IDSE) have been in the forefront of reflecting officers from the Corps of Engineers in a poor light (and also vice-versa). Sometimes we forget the very grundnorm of our existence – the fact that irrespective of our cadres, all of us together have to work for the betterment of the system. Also unfortunate is the call from IDSE officers for the removal of military officers from the Military Engineering Services (MES), the organisation exists for the ‘military’, doesn’t it ? Isn’t such kind of a demand unreasonable ?. The establishment sanction for the MES equates a Lt Col with an SE and while the Army was gunning for placement of Lt Cols in PB-4, the IDSE officers’ association, in official correspondence to the Defence Secretary commented that Lt Cols of the Army should be equated with the Senior Time Scale (STS/Grade Pay 6600). Now that Lt Cols are in PB-4, we hope such blinkers stand removed forever. The nuances of tenability of certain appointments by officers of different grades from various cadres have already been explained in detail by me on this blog. We should learn how to co-exist without mudslinging. Though the task remains unfinished, the following is the story so far :

(a) The IDSE officers’ association had requested for equation of Lt Cols with the Senior Time Scale (STS) which is achieved in four years of service on the civil side. The govt has responded by placing Lt Colonels in PB-4, much higher than even NFSG officers of the Central Engineering Services.

(b) IDSE officers had filed cases before the Central Administrative Tribunal stating therein that the grade of SE should be equated with a full Colonel / Brigadier (!!?!!). Two Hon’ble benches of the CAT held that a Col is senior in reporting channel than an SE and also upheld the legality of an SE / Director reporting to a full Colonel of the Army.

(c) Colonels are also senior to other similarly placed officers in PB-4 since when Grade Pay is alike, then total emoluments (including MSP) are to be taken into account to determine seniority as per the 6th CPC.

(d) Assistant Engineers serving in the MES who are also posted as AGEs in military stations have been explicitly equated with JCOs of the Army by the 6th CPC.

(e) The govt is making efforts not to post Lt Cols to mixed organisations so that they do not have to serve in civil grades junior to them.

(f) By rightly upgrading Lt Cols in PB-4, the govt has clarified that 2ICs / Commandants (JG) of CPOs are definitely much junior to Lt Cols. It may be recalled that 2ICs / Comdts (JG) of the CPOs were in the 5th CPC scale of Rs 12000-375-16500 while Lt Cols were in the scale Rs 15100-400-18700.

(g) Officers of the Armed Forces HQ Civil Service joining as SOs (formerly known as CSOs) through the Civil Services Examination conducted by the UPSC had claimed an equivalence to Lieutenants of the Army. The 6th CPC and the govt rightly placed SOs equal to JCOs as was the actual equation till now.

(h) The incorrect placement of Lt Cols with the Junior Administrative Grade had such a detrimental effect that even directly recruited Group-B (Class-II) services were reaching the JAG in 13 years of service as were Commissioned Officers (Group-A/Class-I) of the three services. The govt has now rightly placed Lt Cols in PB-4 thereby resulting in maintenance of the edge in status of Commissioned Officers over civil officers initially joining at the Group-B level.

(i) Irrespective of rank badges, the 6th CPC and the govt have rightly placed Constables of the Police equal to Sepoys, Head Constables equal to Naiks, ASIs equal to Havildars, SIs equal to Naib Subedars, Inspectors equal to Subedars and the rank of Assistant Commissioner of Police (ACP) equal to a Subedar Major.

While military officers should not have a false sense of superiority over their civilian counterparts, it is also incumbent on civil officers not to indulge in false propaganda in the corridors of power or to comment that defence officers are ‘spoilt’ or ‘overpaid’. Going by the job profile of the military, the officers of the defence services are unable to efficiently react to falsities giving rise to unwanted urban legends. Just analyse the kind of life a man or woman in uniform has to lead, the kind of postings, the inhospitable conditions, the frequency of movement, the family life, the early retirement, the limitations on fundamental rights - in short definitely a curtailed life. The object of our respective services is lost when we try to put down the other. I however do tend to agree with civilian MES officers that senior military ranks should not be posted to posts tenable by juniors. We in fact should make efforts to post JCOs as AGEs where the posts are tenable by AEs (Group-B) from the civil side and Lieutenants where the posts are tenable by AEEs (Group-A). Officers not higher than Majors should be posted as GEs while only Lt Cols or Acting Cols may be posted as CWEs. This would also ultimately lead to a correct rank equation within the hierarchy if postings of senior military ranks to mixed organisations are found objectionable by civil officers.

Let us all not forget that we work for the same organisation and the same nation.


Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeep - firstly accept my warm greetings for the New Year - I could not agree with you any more that some of the military officers as well as our brethren in the civil services - all shades and hues have been using such forums to spew venom on each other. Gentlemen - even brothers squabble but let not such petty differences result in loss to the organization and the country. Those of you who have worked abroad would realize that such an attitude has been the bane of India as compared to the higher level direction available to foreign countries. If you want India to be talked about in the same league in 20 years time, that China already is in today we need all available hands on board. Lets make Major Navdeep's blog stronger and a forum to DEBATE issues in a progressive and congenial manner - Come on this is the least that we can do to make the system work as it should. Thanks again Maj Navdeep - May God bless you

digvijay said...

Navdeep , very beautifully put , all in correct perspective .Hope the new breed is getting the message .The fight , I wouldn't be wrong was for the injustice .Since some of has been corrected( verbally ) we should get on with the task of achieving the furtherance of the aim as understood .Next step is to see that this type of injustice is never done in future .Since a seprate pay commission is to be held for defence services , the Chiefs should embark on the task right away .We have accountant officers of the services who are highly capable , they with the coordination of various branches of the three services should have good amount of pow wow before going for the final wordings .This is how the Standard Operating Procedures of an operational unit are prepared ,which work very fine with the user .Also they are correcteds time to time as per the situation .
"Juban pe such Aur dil mein India" has been our motto , just carry on . May god be with us

Ramani said...

Very right Navdeep.The problem is, that for a short term solution, vacancies are filled up without any planning or thinking of the future.those who are thus recruited become embedded in the system and it then becomes difficult for adjustmentlater.
Same is the case of temporary casual workers who are terminated after a certain period to ensure a break, and then again remploed afresh, to avoid giving permanent status.
I hope a lot thought goes into each and every appointment in any department.

Anonymous said...

I feel that since CPOs have a quasi military role at time, such as the BSF, SSB, ITBP, NSG, they should have a rotating police/army command structure. Alternately, they should be headed by an IPS officer, and a Lt Gen.

Additionally, since IPS officers often have to perform tasks which require a higher level of training, perhaps the IPS exam and intake should be through the NDA as well! I think this will go a long way towards making it a better and stronger cadre than it currently is, giving them far greater professionalism than they ever had. After NDA, they can serve 5 years in the army, and then take up their postings as Addl. SP (which will be correct, as they will then be posted as majors). If they claim rank equivalence with the military, they should be ready to serve as well!

Vitalstatistix said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,
You have always been putting up very sensible, balanced and specific posts in your blog. A large part of this comes I am sure from a genuine desire on your part to do good for the service that nurtured you / all of us, and mainly, like many people do, the desire not to just stand around and 'crib'. It is very easy to sit around and verbalise one's feelings of supposed repression or whatever it is amongst peers socially, but it is very difficult to manage what you have achieved. Most of us find it difficult to put pen to paper, so to say, and actually get down to putting something down. Like you and others have said in your blog earlier, it is the file notings that make a big difference, and most of us are not really aware of how the game is played; busy as we all are firing our guns or torpedoes or dropping our bombs. It is usually too late in life, when we go to AFHQ, to re-learn our ways of working, and we realise that "ordering" someone will not always get you the thing you need or want to get done.
Having said that, I feel that it is really time for us to introspect as to how we can reduce the further degradation.
We need to ensure that our own house is in order. It has been mentioned earlier that reducing the time required for promotion has thrown up a very peculiar state, mainly because we have not yet got out of the groove of, "how can every body become Lt Col, or Wg Cdr or Cdr, when I became one with great difficulty and only after selection!! perhaps we need to still have a method within the service that will allow some of those in the Lt Col bracket to be selected for Command posts or posts that would otherwise have been held by selectively promoted Lt Col and those who are lower down in the merit may not get to go through those career postings. In a way, the DSSC course is one such filter. But, we need to also get out of the feeling that such junior (in service, but senior in rank) officers will not be able to take decisions, so cannot be put in posts requiring decisions to be made. In a way, we have tied ourselves in knots by the AVSC I and II, by having so many Lt Cols and Cols, that we are forced to resort to posting officers where earlier one rank lower would do the job. Take the example of the GEs post. It has been now quite a while that Lt Cols have been appointed as GEs while there is no change in the designation of the Civ GE who are also doing the same job. Similarly, where interservices stations are concerned, the CE, who is a Colonel, very often is junior (in NDA) to many officers of the rank of Selective Wg Cdr / Cdr in that station, simply because that Course has not yet come up for promotion in the IAF / IN whereas in the Army, those way below in service are already Col (Subs or Acting, does it really matter, if you are posted as CE, and you wear the Insignia?).
Another case I heard about is the lack of clear directives on equivalence of seniority between Naval and Coast Guard officers. It is only in the last three or four years that I believe a clear cut order has been issued - but with the PB4 issue having heated up so much, and still not entirely clear, there is bound to be unresolved seniority issues between the two. especially since the ranks are so similar, and more so, because the Initial Training is done together too !! Ditto for Army - BSF or Army - Police. What actually has happened is that this issue has ripped apart the tenuous fabric that held the organisation in place within the framework of what were the accepted norms and the clear seniorities due to pay differences in the Vth CPC. You have given the clearly spelt out equivalence in your blog about the Police ranks. The danger here as you rightly pointed out is that Armed Forces officers often equate themselves accordingly, and are in for a rude shock when they find that the PSI is, actually, well within his rights to arrest even a serving officer (education from your blog here!!). For that matter, even a security guard a the gate in company premises can stop you from entering, whosoever you may be. It is each person to his job, no matter what, and the problem only comes in when we try to equate during operation or working together.

What is really required is education , and empowerment of our officers to take up higher posts, and then post them in the same ranks that we did earlier; the example of the GE is a case in point. We also need to ensure correct education or rather, indoctrination of those going to take up posts in the AFHQ, so that our cases are not allowed to Bounce.
What we also need is a more pragmatic look (sorry, nothing to do with Pragmatic euphony) at the way we work, the way we view our juniors, whether officers of non-officers, and accept that in today's society , the social fabric is changing as compared to say 25 years back. we need to say to ourselves, "I did not have so and so facility when I was a junior officer, or my PBORs did not get this facility earlier, and so why not WORK to improve things? rather than saying "in my time we didn't go on so much leave" etc etc.
One likely source of such ideas is to have an intra-service blog, which is not open to the Internet, only on the Intranet. In today's net-savvy world, most young officers (even those who are 30+ are young, in that sense) are keen bloggers, and would welcome such a move. Here, in the relative anonymity of the web, personnel would be free to give thought a free chance and perhaps, even if one in 100 blog posts give a real idea worth taking up, it would be a boon. Another thing is that it would likely give a 'space' for those with cribs to vent their grievances, and many times, even this kind of 'therapy' is good enough to get people motivated. Food for thought?

Well, I think I have ended up writing more than I thought I would. The thing is that when I see you doing such a wonderful job, AND balancing it with your professional as well as personal life, it really makes me too want to "make a difference"

Jai Hind, and hope to keep contributing to your blog.

pawan said...

dear bloggers sympathetic to defence cause,
please remember, Our separate pay commission will declare the results first and then Civil Services will ensure that they have an upper hand by giving themselves status/pay package accordingly. What is the remedy ?

Anonymous said...

Hello Navdeep,

Should you missed this out....I found this on the chat today and thought would seek clarification from you on the status of Lt Col - Pb4-Deputation...Is the righting on the wall?? what is your inference on the same?? Would this hold good for tenure/ deputation aswell to org like DGQA.

Attached is the article in the tribune.

"All officers fall under combat or ready-for-combat category, MoD told
New deal for Lt Cols
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, January 9
In less than 10 days after the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) conveyed its decision to the Ministry of Defence on the pay-related anomalies of the armed forces, the latter have found a way out to get enhanced status for all Lt Colonels and their equivalent ranks in the Navy and the IAF. To the PMO’s condition that only Lt Colonels, who are on “combat” or “ready-for-combat posts” will be given the enhanced status of pay band 4 and grade scale of Rs 8,000, the forces have conveyed to the Defence Minister that all the 12,000 officers in this rank fall in the category of combat or ready- for-combat. A formal written communiqué is being drafted in this regard.

Service chiefs conveyed the logic of treating all posts as combat or ready for combat as the nomenclature of such posts does not exist in the glossary of the forces, as they have only three kinds of posting — field, modified field and peacetime. This had created apprehension in the minds of the officers.

Following instructions from the PMO, a fresh order will probably have to be issued to detail out the posts with the service headquarters going by the dictum that an officer can be called upon for combat duty any time, hence, he is to be treated as such.

In case of Lt Colonels, the pay band 4 status will mean an increase of anything between Rs 10,000 and 12,000 per month over the existing pay scales. Already those who are on deputation would receive the pay band 4 status only when they return to their parent service. Also, the Lieut Colonel rank officers will not be sent on deputation any more.

The service headquarters will also list the issues of command, control and status of the forces vis-à-vis their civilian and paramilitary counterparts. The defence secretary will head a high-powered committee to sort this out.

The armed forces had raised four core issues that were looked into by a committee of ministers.

Two of them have not been addressed. While the demand of pay band 4 status for Lt Colonels had been agreed upon with conditions, 70 percent pension benefit for jawans was approved in totality. Also the government has decided to set up a pay commission exclusively for the forces. This will be de-linked from the civilian pay commission"

Request you comment on the same ASAP.

SANTOKH said...

My Dear Maj Navdeep,
May Almighty Bless you with a long, Happy and Healthy life to serve the Forces in this way.
I have been following the chat box for the last few days and find that you are doing a thankless job enlightning your brother officers on all fronts where they need help and guidance to get their legitimate due.
Once again I wish you Happy Lohari and Healthy New year.
God Bless You & Your Family.
Lt Col S.S.BHATIA ,(Retd)

Anonymous said...

Hi Maj Navdeep. ACP of police equal to SM. I wish u were slightly more considerate while stating that 10h pass SM is equal to Group A IPS. Police also serve this country?.I believe the majority SM does the duties of clerks/head clerk. Can Army give them the command of troops. I understand even an SL COL officer doesnot get command in a unit ?....

Armchair Grumbler said...

Dear Major Navdeep,

The malaise to put others down rather rise/raise oneself higher is old and has been given importance by the mud-slinging that politicians (as old as LK Advani) habitually resort to.

I wish that the IDSE rises/raises itself to doing some thing constructive (no pun intended).

Each of has a part to play in making India better; let us look forward to doing that instead of slinging mud.

Anonymous said...

the proposal of separate pay commission for armed forces would be highly counterproductive since forces would not know how much other cadres have taken for themselves. the only way out if at all there is a separate comm for forces is that such commission would submit its report 03 months after acceptance of central pay commission (civil) report by the govt.remember it was the forces themselves who had asked for inclusion of only brigs and col (sel) in pay band - 4 after submission of pay comm report in march. initially our chiefs welcomed the accepted report in august, the hue and cry for lt cols started much later. this shows our gullibility at the highest levels. we have to be on gaurd next time around to avoid unnecessary harrasment and brinkmanship. (olddoc)
PS: navdeep, no fresh writeups from you for the poor amc docs on DACP issue and comparsion with cghs cadre. like i wrote on the shoutbox the amc ranks can be prefixed with surg. as they do in navy viz. surg col, surg brig etc.

IndianACE said...

@ Navdeep,

Your post has put the services' point across as comprehensively as could be possible. Thanks again for the yeoman service.

However, I beg to differ on the issue of a Lt Col being no longer eligible to be posted as a GE. While he does receive the higher pay of a Lt Col,in financial terms, the govt saves on the pay and allowances towards employment of an additional civilian EE. In addition, the service officer, who is available at that moment, gains practical experience of executing civil works which stand him in good stead while executing op works in future.

Some may protest to this view stating that the particular Lt Col should, in that case, be employed on service tasks. And definitely, if the engineer Lt Col could be employed on any suitable engineering task then so be it. But pray don’t start employing a M-Tech qualified officer as an MCO, just because you can’t post him to MES any more.

The same bunch of civilians will now put an RTI, as to why an army officer needs to do M-Tech at all.

I can already see some nods. Pray, note the educational qualifications of Gen Petraeus'.

Just because an IDSE officer gets a heartburn over the higher pay being drawn by a Service officer doing the same job (While the hardships, the service officer has earlier faced, are conveniently ignored) should be no reason for Lt Cols not to be posted as GEs. If only Majs are to be posted as a GE, then either the army will have to relinquish some of these posts to the IDSE, thus necessitating recruitment of more IDSE officers- leading to higher pay & allce and pension expenditure by the Govt (Did they say, they want to save money when they placed Lt Cols in PB3! :-) ) while the Lt Col twiddles his thumbs on less challenging tasks. Alternately, more Majors will be posted as GEs, thus denuding their availability in units.
If nothing else, the wily IDSE and the AFHQCS combine have, for ever, downgraded the status of the Lt Cols. There was already a cutthroat rat race within the corps owing to the steep pyramid. Now it will be downright dirty. In fact the remedy put forward by the PMO may also succeed in drawing a wedge among different arms and services as the ‘combat ready’ Lt Cols are ascertained.

I hope better sense will prevail on part of the powers that be and at least the present lot of Lt Cols are allowed to retain their pre 6CPC status in mixed orgs.

The next generation may now progress their career with full awareness of the repercussions of taking any sort of chance with their ACRs (even in line of duty) and will act accordingly.

I don't know if the IDSE/AFCS lobbies have attained their aim but their recent smugness and satisfaction seems to be diluted with grant of PB-4 to Lt Cols. Hence, at this moment there is an allround mixed bag of emotions for servicemen as well as our civilian friends .

I don’t think that I will be completely surprised if, somehow, our friends manage a coup of sorts just as this present govt vacates office.

Picture abhi baaki hai, mere dost!

I think the chat box should go or be closely moderated (if possible- the Cbox be opened for only a few hours while you are around and the subject matter for the chat be also given).
A serious discussion is no longer possible :-)

samy said...

Here is a q and ans put Shree mataji Nirmala Dev, The founder of Sahaja yaga. I am putting it here after going through the post by navdeep. I feel we must learn and correct ourself First

Q: Once you get self-realization you know yourself, but who is going to correct the injustice in the world? Who is going to become the leader? Who will change the world where there is injustice, where there is discrimination, where there is hatred? If you are saying forget about the hatred, who is going to come forward? If I become self-realized and then forget the hatred then who’s going to come forward and change the world where there’s injustice, where there’s a crime, where there’s a harassment?
Shri Mataji: Ah, correct, that’s the worry I have. This hatred and all this, comes through ignorance. We have ignorance, and once you start getting into this great ocean of love, it starts just disappearing from you, to begin with and from others also, who have got realization.

Now they say that Sahaja Yoga is working in seventy-two countries and we have seminars in India sometimes and sometimes in Italy where the people from all these countries come. I have never seen them criticizing each other. Of course they have great fun, they enjoy, but never seen complaining or doing anything wrong to each other. Because now they have become all one.
It’s the last judgment, this is the time of last judgment. If you want to remain as you are, you’ll remain, nobody can force you. But, if you want to rise to that level, you’ll be amazed, you’ll have friends all over the world. Not ordinary friends, but real, real friends.

So, just to get rid of this hatred and all nonsense what do we have to do? Think this hatred comes from where? It comes from human beings. So, we have to transform them. If they are transformed, things will be all right.

If you want peace of mind pl visit


Observer said...


While u deserve to be praised for your decision to moderate intemperate/inappropriate comments, one is disappointed to note that even u could not refrain from IDSE bashing. In any case congrats to the Lt Cols (Combat/ready to combat whatever that means)for PB4 with GP 8000. I have following comments on some of your statements in the blog.
'unfortunate is the call from IDSE officers for the removal of military officers from the Military Engineering Services (MES), the organisation exists for the ‘military’, doesn’t it ? Isn’t such kind of a demand unreasonable ?'
If I am not wrong we have Defence Accounts Dept,Dept of Defence Research and Development, Department of Defence Production etc which are wholly or substancially civilian organisations.These organisations too exist for the ‘military’, don’t they? Then why can't there be a Defence Works Dept. There is nothing wrong in IDSE Association's demand to seek complete civilianisation of MES. Desirability and feasibility of the same is for the Govt to decide.

"The IDSE officers’ association had requested for equation of Lt Cols with the Senior Time Scale (STS) which is achieved in four years of service on the civil side. The govt has responded by placing Lt Colonels in PB-4, much higher than even NFSG officers of the Central Engineering Services."

Grant of PB4/higher GP to Lt Cols does not necessarily mean that they become senior/superior in status to their civ counter parts PB3 with GP7600. If this logic is applied by your own admission a Col is equal to a Civ Officer with a GP of 8700 which the services have been opposing tooth and nail.

As regards who works under whom in a mixed organisation it would be better if the Govt lays down clear guidelines to avoid misgivings(perceived if not real)of the aggrieved side against the dominant side. For instance if the Govt decides that a civ Chief Engineer must report to a Col or even a Lt Col so be it. Problem arises when lower formations (Service Hqs E-in -C's Br. etc.) attempt to issue instructions apparantly contrary to Govt Instrs

Rajababu said...

@vital statistix,

Seem to be Naval Officer going by the writing n references. Any ways nicely written article putting pen to heart!!.

I felt a tinge of bias in ur sentence "how can every body become Lt Col, or Wg Cdr or Cdr, when I became one with great difficulty and only after selection!! perhaps we need to still have a method within the service that will allow some of those in the Lt Col bracket to be selected for Command posts or posts that would otherwise have been held by selectively promoted Lt Col and those who are lower down in the merit may not get to go through those career postings. In a way, the DSSC course is one such filter. But, we need to also get out of the feeling that such junior (in service, but senior in rank) officers will not be able to take decisions".

Though u seem to be politically correct later on, this is exactly the feeling amongst seniors i was talking about in my various blogs. The seniors could'nt stomach the fact that
(a)Juniors will be in PB 4 with
near/same grade pay.
(b) Lt Col flying along with a
Col/Brig post V CPC.
(c) Couldnt stomach the fact
that all officers become Cdrs by
(d) the pyramid becoming wider at the bottom. In fact the shape of our structure will be in the form of a Kulfi cone with a broad stick at the bottom(the stick represents the ever dwindling variety/rareity of Captain/Lts/Flt Lts).

In my previous blog on Adm Nadkarni I have written the basic thing plaguing the services/other institutions(public/private) is the vice of I,ME and MYSELF syndrome. The day we start looking at truely "SERVING" the Men and People, sucess and satisfaction will be our natural ally. Else we all become potential cribbers like most bright anonymous people writing on this blog.

@ Maj Navdeep

VMT and keep up the spirit/good work.

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep, With all your efforts may i request you that our brother officers be informed of the facts more clearly. The minimum length of service for Col appointment in 1924/1930 was 30 years and for Lt Col 24 years. By only putting the half truth we are leaving the young Service officers in a mode as if government has not done enough for them in past.This is not correct. In fact Army/AF/NAVY themselve have failed to ask higher pays for LT/CAPT/MAJ. They istead asked higher ranks for same job. Which was wrong. Now we want to correct it in one go. It appears in long run the structure of Units will take a form which will not be best for AIM. A deeper thinking is required. The info in blog should be in national interest and not in the interest of Service officers alone. Short interest are often contrary to longterm interest of society. History hasenough in store to guide us. This equally applies to our civilian brothers as to service officers.Thanks.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

Dear anony at 10.07 AM

Unfortunately what you say is not correct.
1924/1930 is not the benchmark.

The Benchmark is 1947 and the successive pay commissions and pay review committees.
Let me rewind history for you.

As per notification No F 49/9/35-Public (G) dated 16 June 1937 issued by the Governor General’s Secretariat (as amended and applicable in 1947), ICS officers with 30 years of service were equated with a Brig, with 23-29 years with a Col, 18-22 with a Lt Col, 12-17 years with a Major.

Indian Police (now IPS) officers with 15-20 years were also equated with a Major.

All other Class-I Central Services officers with 20+ years of service were placed between a Major and a Lt Col.

There should be no comparison of ranks, the pay progression should be compared with the length of service as ordained in Chapter 3 of the CPC. The defence services have been kept out of the loop for the application of universal pay progression. Pray tell me why my dear Sir ?

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

I have always appreciated your articulate blogs, I completely agree with the view that the level of comments leave a lot to be desired.
It is an evident fact that the contributors (service offrs & otherwise) need to use the Queen's english with more skill & exhibit clarity of thought in their comments. Vulgarity is not a substitute for reasoning.

Anonymous said...

Expected DA for Central Government Employees from 1.1.2009 - 22%

All India Consumer Price Index Number for Industrial Workers (CPI-IW) on base 2001=100 for the month of November, 2008 remained stationary at 148 (one hundred and fortyeight).
During November, 2008, the index recorded maximum increase of 5 points each in Quilon and Madurai centres, 3 points each in Mysore, Ernakulam, Bhilwara and Coonoor centres, 2 points in 13 centres and 1 point in 14 centres. The index decreased by 1 point in 19 centres and 2 points each in Jalandhar, Nasik, Bhavnagar, Siliguri, Asansol and Howrah centres, while in remaining 20 centres the index remained stationary.
The maximum increase of 5 points in Quilon centre is mainly due to Fish, Fresh Vegetable Items and Washing Soap etc., while that in Madurai centre is mainly due to Rice and Vegetable Items. The increase of 3 points each in Mysore, Ernakulam, Bhilwara and Coonoor centres is due to Rice, Onion, Fish Fresh, Vegetable Items, Tea Readymade, Toilet Soap etc. While the decrease of 2 points each in Jalandhar, Nasik, Bhavnagar, Siliguri, Asansol and Howrah centres is due to decrease in the prices of Vegetable items, Mustard Oil, Groundnut Oil etc.

The point to point rate of inflation for the month of November, 2008 remained constant 10.45% at the level of October, 2008.
The CPI-IW for December, 2008 will be released on the last working day of the next month, i.e. 30th January, 2009.

All India Consumer Price Index Industrial Workers BASE YEAR 2001 = 100
Month Base year 2201=100 Total of 12 Months 12 Month Average % Increase over 115.76 for DA
Nov2007 134 1562 130.17 12.45
Dec2007 134 1569 130.75 12.95
Jan-2008 134 1576 131.33 13.45
Feb-2008 135 1583 131.92 13.96
Mar2008 137 1593 132.75 14.68
Apr-2008 138 1603 133.58 15.39
May2008 139 1613 134.42 16.12
Jun-2008 140 1623 135.25 16.84
Jul-2008 143 1634 136.17 17.63
Aug2008 145 1646 137.17 18.50
Sep-2008 146 1659 138.25 19.43
Oct-2008 148 1673 139.42 20.44

Expected Dearness Allowance for Central Government Employees from 1.1.2009 - 22% (As per Swamy's News - Jan-2009

Anonymous said...

This has ref to Maj Navdeep thought process specifically related to MES/ ISE and Corps of Engineers.
Armed forces of the Union are listed under item No 2 in the List I-union list (Article 246) of seventh Schedule of Constitution of India, and that of Defence works Services under item No 4. This clearly implies that MES is not part of any Armed Services.
Article 77 of the Constitution of India provides rules for allocation of the business of Govt of India. Accordingly, under clause 3 of the Article, works relating to Defence services have been placed under Ministry of Defence under item No 7 and that of the Armed forces under item No 2. This establishes that MES (Works services) is not under Armed forces.
E-in-C, Who is head of Corps of Engineers, has been given additional responsibility as head of MES, as E-in-C is not borne on the strength of MES. (MES establishment sanction dt 26 Nov 08 refers).
Army personnel of Corps of Engineers are posted to MES on tenure basis (Rule 12 of SRO 95 refers) in accordance with provision of MES (Army personnel) regulations 1989 (SRO 19E refers). The civilian component is sanctioned by MoD.
MES is responsible for the execution of works in non-operational areas under Defence works procedure. Thus MES is not handling and controlling any troops. In other words, MES is not doing any combat duties.
Prior to independence, in 1923, when the then Military works services was reorganized and designated as MES, it was kept as a distinct entity and Army officers posted on tenure basis were paid at civil rates from works estimates.
After independence, Govt of India vide order No 3601/75/1/E14 dated 24th June 1948 validated the MES under the Ministry of Defence.
E-in-C is a principal staff officer and as such does not have the power of Head of department. He has been vested with certain delegated powers by MoD.
E-in-C being a PSO reports to Chief of Army Staff (COAS). COAS is not in the chain of command of MES as all works and personnel matters are dealt directly by MoD.
Shri George Fernandes Ex RM in reply to unstarred question No 5741 dated 02 May 2002 stated that orders for gradual civilianization of MES in conformity with the recommendation of Vth CPC have been issued.
MES provide works services to the three Defence services and other related departments under Ministry of Defence. Thus MES is a distinct and separate department under Ministry of Defence.

Anonymous said...

Anony at 10:07, Navdeep at 10:38

Anony says that in 1930, the minimum time needed to attain the rank of Colonel was 30 years.

Navdeep says do not take 1924/1930 benchmark. Further he says according to 1937 notification ICS officers with 23-29 years of service were equated with Colonels. {it seems that he likes 1937 more than 1924/1930. maybe some personal idiosyncrasy ...}

The question is this: Around 1937, how much time did the Army officers take to attain the rank of Colonel ?

Options: (a) 30 years
(b) less than 30 years
(c) more than 30 years

Any answers ??

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony at 12.34

Perhaps while talking of my fixation of 1937, you missed out the following from my reply :

"As per notification No F 49/9/35-Public (G) dated 16 June 1937 issued by the Governor General’s Secretariat (as amended and applicable in 1947"

The notification was published in 1937 was was amended and was in force as on the date of our independence. It remained valid well into the 1950s and formed a basis of equivalence and pay committees. That is the reason why the notification of 1937 is the only benchmark that can be considered.

The rough equivalence of military and civil ranks in terms of length of service was also similar till about the 50s.

Thank you

Rajababu said...

Anon @ 9.09 pm

All the more reason to disband the MES and outsource activities or merge the same under CPWD why have duplicity in maintaining two civil depts.

Dont post any Army officers to these cadres the problem is automatically solved until and unless some wisecrack wants to make money.

Anonymous said...

navdeep sir,
pl clarify applicability status of DGQA permanently seconded LT COLS with regards to PB4 ,AS PER pmo orders or latest stand/ proposals fwd by army.thanx & regards.

Phaedrus said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,
Just when i thought this a a sensible blog you come up with a crazy comparison. How can you equate ASP/ACP with your SM. AACP is a gazatted Gp A Post. Similarly Lt Col were drawing a basic of 13500 not 15100 as sugessted by you. By that logic you shoul add NPA for doctors and then they would be drawing a pay close to Secy. Pl check your facts and dont make this blog into a medium for Military propoganda

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...


Firstly, I don't usually shoot off my keys unless I'm certain about what I'm saying.

Directly appointed officers of the rank of ACP from the Delhi and Andaman Nicobar Island Police Service are Group-B officers with a Grade Pay of Rs 4800 and so are Dy SPs in certain States. IPS officers who are posted to the post of ACP are in the GP of 5400 (Gp A)whereas DANIPS officers are a step lower in 4800 (Gp B) and in PB-2. For more clarity on the subject you may please visit this link : http://www.indianmilitary.info/2008/11/police-and-military-ranks-at-pbor-level.html

Before you dispute the above, go through Pages 84 and 465 of the 6th CPC report and compare the pay and GP of a Subedar-Major and an ACP.

On rank pay, please go through Para 2 of SAI 2/S/98 and have a look at the definition of Rank Pay, it is a part of basic pay for all purposes my dear Sir.

ss kalia said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,
At the outset I wish to thank you for coming out with updated information on the financial aspects in respect of defense personnel with regard to the outcome of 6th pay commission.
Today it has come out in 'The Tribune' that lt- cols and equivalent ranks with 15 years of service only shall be eligible for PB 4 and not on picking up thier rank after 11 years of service. The matter has been taken up again with the Govt by the service HQs.
Will you be able to throw light on this latest development and also the effect (if any) on the retired Lt-Cols and eqivalent ranks.
S S kalia

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@SS kalia

There is no such move of '15 yrs'.
Where has it appeared in Tribune today, I don't think it has :-)

Anonymous said...

Dear Friends,
Questions have been raised on civilianisation of MES.........
I dont find any reason as to why anybody in uniform is required in MES and if at all required why not we have officers from the other services as well(airforce / navy) as GE/CWE/CE. I think they are equally capable like any other army officer. Why only people from corps of engineers are considered capable of handling works appointment. Naval officers are doing a good job as GE in DGNP. Let us also welcome them in MES......
It was the British legacy.......to have army officers as the only officers in MES and all the subordinates as civilians......Britishers have left India 60 yrs back..........but we are still following them.......as per my inputs present British MES is purely civilian......
It is high time govt should think on these lines and go for full civilianisation of MES.......mind you not much of new recruitment will be required.....as most of the MES offices are overloaded with staff and officers who are simply trying to ADVISE their BOSSES(in uniform) as they do not know any thing about works procedure and they seriously lack in technical expertise barring a few exceptions

Mukesh said...

@ Navdeep

First of all accept my sincere thanks for well researched information. At one place you have mentioned...

"Colonels are also senior to other similarly placed officers in PB-4 since when Grade Pay is alike, then total emoluments (including MSP) are to be taken into account to determine seniority as per the 6th CPC"

Can you please mention the exact authority for this provision. these guys are creating lot of ruckus on these issues...

Anonymous said...

anon @ 9.04
what expertise ?
your designs are baba adam vintage,
your projects never get completed within the given cost or TIME,
your buildings leak,
your staff are either doing personal work using office assets or carting it away,
you only want to do "theka"
you are a burden which the forces can do without,
the sooner you are gone the better

Anonymous said...

Navdeep sir,
May I again request u to kindly clarify the status of 'PERMANENTLY SECONDED'Lt Cols of DGQA & other such offrs in similar orgs...PLEASE RESPOND!

Anonymous said...

Dear friends, please read the decision of UK MOD as placed on a official website. It may guide the descussion on this blog regarding civilisation of MES and other such organisation. We have to be faithful to Nation. We need them but that should not defeat the very purpose of welfare of citizen. There is no point in paying the the solidiers pay and allowances to clerks in station HQ, MES, MH, DGQA and the likes. Our Service brother officers have to understand that every citizens pays around 205 of his income in high cost of Forces and police.
"In a recent clear and unambiguous statement the UK MoD stated that--

The Department remains committed to a process of civilianisation. Increasingly, it makes no sense to employ expensively trained and highly professional military personnel in jobs which civilians could do equally well. Civilians are generally cheaper than their military counterparts and as they often remain longer in post, can provide greater continuity. For these reasons, it is our long-standing policy to civilianise posts and so release valuable military resources to the front line whenever it makes operational and economic sense to do so.

The overwhelming majority of the 22,840 deployed ‘elsewhere’ support the British Forces in Germany. "
Rest have a good discussion.

Anonymous said...

Dear all. In my earlier post for 205 read 20%. Thanks

Anonymous said...

Navdeep sir,
May I again humbly request u to kindly clear the doubt & clarify the status of 'PERMANENTLY SECONDED'Lt Cols of DGQA & other such offrs in similar orgs...PLEASE RESPOND!...2 much,for serving in uniform...

January 16, 2009 1:37 AM

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep.

Could you kinldly answer the blog on permanently seconded Lt Col of DGQA and other similar orgs.

Also seek clarification on "tenure"(on temporary deputation).

Anonymous said...

Navdeep sir,
May I once again humbly & earnestly request u to kindly clear the doubt & clarify the status of 'PERMANENTLY SECONDED'Lt Cols of DGQA & other such offrs in similar orgs...PLEASE RESPOND!...2 much,for serving in uniform...plz, it's getting 2 us now...Plz clear the air...U can do it...

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony at 2.52 AM

The govt has not taken a final call on the issue so it would be premature to comment on the same.

You may go through the following post for the legal position on the same :


Anonymous said...

thanx!4 responding...Can we now request u 2 updt us whenever our govt wd' find it convienient 2 address PB4 & make us wise on our emoluments as army offrs subject 2 army act in orgs like DGQA n host of other such estts but not or proposed to not to be considered even to be combat ready...I don't think that this implies that our govt has been made 2 assume that LTCOLs in such orgs shall not be recalled 2 address call of duty if our neighbours decide our govt is as hollow as it has made itself 2 seem in the eyes of nation & def forces...LEARN EVEN 5% OF 35 WORDED COMPLIMENT 2 DEF FORCES BY GREAT OBAMA, THEN IT MAY REDEEM MOST OF UR SINS COMMITTED TOWARDS INDIAN ARMY, NAVY & AIR FORCE...DO WAKE UP OUR REVERRED GOVT !!!! No use talking 2 deafs... signing off!!! But, navdeep sir TUSI SAADI HOPE HO,ring in JUSTICE..may GOD give u ALL the HAPPINESS !!..by annony @ 2.52 AM ON 20 JAN 09..

Anonymous said...

I think u dont know about why MES is formed why civilians are reqd in MES so first take some genuine knowledge and then talk.