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Saturday, January 3, 2009

Officers on ‘deputation’ not to be included in the new pay regime. But does a posting to AR, MES, BRO, etc qualify as ‘deputation’ ? No it does not

By now readers must be aware of the rider of the new scale for Lt Cols not being applicable to those officers who are on deputation to other organisations.

While clearly stating that in the future Lt Cols would not be sent on deputation to other organisations, the directions from the PMO ordain that “Lt Colonels on deputation may be given PB4 and Grade Pay of Rs 8000 only when they return from deputation to their parent service”

But what is ‘deputation’ you may ask. Well, in the civil parlance, deputation is an inter-se voluntary arrangement between two departments with the consent of the concerned employee wherein there are three players - there is a lending department, a borrowing department and a consenting employee.

Postings to Assam Rifles, Military Engineering Services, National Cadet Corps etc neither fulfil the above criterion nor involve any kind of voluntariness of officers. In my humble opinion, though sometimes (for convenience) termed as ‘deputation’, such postings are not so since there is no consent of employees involved in these. Officers are posted out by the MS branch based on administrative convenience and based on the number of vacancies and there is no willingness involved. Had these postings been optional or voluntary and that too on posts with lower GP, then the stipulation could have been applied to such officers. The stipulation of lower GP to deputationists can, in my humble opinion, be only applied to officers who in response to advertisements or departmental requisitions volunteer to opt for deputation. A close example would be deputation to organisations such as RAW wherein senior officers have traditionally been deputed to lower posts. In such a case, when an officer is himself or herself volunteering to proceed on deputation to a lower appointment after being made aware of the scale and the corresponding ‘pitfalls’, the stipulation of application of a lower GP may be perfectly valid. Postings to even outside organisations such as Assam Rifles (Ministry of Home Affairs), Border Roads Organisation (Ministry of Road Transport & Highways), National Cadet Corps (Ministry of HRD) may be colloquially and commonly referred to as ‘deputation’ within military circles but actually and technically these are not deputations but transfer-appointments made under Regulation 99 of the Defence Services Regulations (DSR-Regulations for the Army, 1987). The said Regulation does NOT even remotely refer to the term ‘deputation’.

How have Hon’ble Courts defined ‘deputation’ ?

The concept of deputation is consensual and involves a voluntary decision of the employer to lend the services of his employee and a corresponding acceptance of such services by the borrowing employer – it also involves the consent of the employee to go on deputation or not : The Hon’ble Supreme Court in Umapati Chowdhary Vs State of Bihar (1999) / Citation AIR 1999(SC) 1948

Deputation is deputing or transferring an employee to a post outside his cadre, that is to say, to another department on a temporary basis. There can be no deputation without the consent of the person so deputed and he would, therefore, know his rights and privileges in the deputation post : The Hon’ble Supreme Court in State of Punjab Vs Inder Singh and others (1998) / Citation AIR 1998(SC)7

A deputation subsists so long as the parties to this tripartite arrangement do not abrogate it. However , if any one of the parties repudiate the agreement, the other two have no legally enforceable right to insist upon continuance of deputation : The Hon’ble Punjab & Haryana High Court in Gurinder Pal Singh Vs State of Punjab (2005) / Citation 2005(1)RSJ 340

An Army officer can be posted to Assam Rifles without his consent : The Hon’ble Delhi High Court in Lt Gen VP Airy Vs Union of India (1993) / Citation 1993LabIC565

The pattern of postings of defence officers to such organisations would hence reveal that such appointments are not consensual, voluntary or optional but mandatory and obligatorily enforced under Regulation 99 of DSR and which a person cannot refuse. Hence in my humble opinion, the stipulation of the new pay regime not being made applicable to deputationists cannot include such postings which are compulsorily executed but can only be imposed on posts on which the officers have themselves voluntarily proceeded on deputation. Postings to AR, MES, BRO, NCC etc do not qualify as ‘deputation’ posts as held and defined by Hon’ble Courts of Law including the Hon’ble Apex Court.

The new pay scale hence to my mind and personal opinion, can only be refused to those who have voluntarily proceeded on lower JAG level posts and not to those who have been posted to various appointments by the organisation under the authority of Regulation 99. The new scale should hence logically apply to every single Lt Col and equivalent in the three services except officers who have voluntarily on their own asking proceeded on deputation to lower posts and the only officers who can be excluded are perhaps MNS officers and Whole Time Commissioned Officers of the NCC who by nature of their duties are non-combatants. One cannot, should not and perhaps would not be denied a benefit on the basis of a posting on which he or she had no control.

109 comments:

Anonymous said...

Dear Major Navadeep,
Thanks for clarification on deputation. Excellent research indeed. Can you throw some light on "combat or combat ready" terms. Do the postings to NCC, Assam Rifles, BRO, MES and DRDO qualify on these accounts?

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj
Your interpretation of Deputation is correct. But you have not gone through the contents of Ist line of PMO letter in detail. It says "Lt Colonels in their parent service holding combat or ready to combat jobs may be placed in PB4". It means that Lt Cols should be in their parent department. Do you think departments mentioned above are parent departments fot Lt Cols. If you say yes, then with lots of regard to u, I differ from your oinion. All Lt Col in their parent deparments are doing either combar or ready to combat jobs. So all Lt Cols in their parent department are placed in PB4. Congratulations to all Lt Cols and theit equivalent serving in their parent departments.

Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeep,

Thankyou very much for clarifying the term 'deputation'. I am in DRDO and posted here with out obtaining my consent with no deputational allowances. I hope I would be placed in pb4 with 8K GP.

I would like to know if they decide this posting as deputation would I loose my entire arrears of pb4. I am about to complete my tennure and likely to get posted out to patrent org.

Once again thanks and may New Year brings prosperity, good health and peace to u and ur family members.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony @ 9.05

Let us forget 'parent deptt' for a minute.

Tell me, have these Lt Cols proceeded to MES, BRO etc on their own in accordance with their own will ? Or were they posted as such by the Army ?

If they have gone on their own, perfect - refuse PB-4 to them, but if they have been posted out by the Army then how can you deny something to them on the basis of an action over which they had no control ? Could they dream at that point of time that this stipulation was going to be imposed ?

Combat / ready for Combat. My dear Sir, every single officer of the defence services (incl even ones on depution to NHAI, Svy of India etc) remains on a call for active duty whenever reqd. So what else is 'ready for combat' ? Only MNS officers, Whole Time NCC officers and NCsE are non-combatants in that sense who cannot be granted combat responsibilities, others are all combat ready and we should be damn clear about it.

Anonymous said...

One thing I differ, deputation does not mean to a lower post always. It is generally to a higher or equivalent post.

Anonymous said...

Read this. http://vinodksharma.blogspot.com/2008/11/military-bureaucracy-and-political.html .
An interesting comparison. Really shameful.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony @ 9.15

Deputation can be at a lower, equivalent as well as higher post. Depends on the officer who is making a choice.

Let me give you some examples :

Colonels and equiv have in the past proceeded on deputation to the posts of Dy Secy in RAW (GP 7600) and Brigs have been posted in the same org as Directors (GP 8700)

The MoD last week has sought ASC Colonels on deputation for a JAG level post. And damn well some uninformed officers would apply for it.

Many officers (even from the civil services) in the past have served on lower posts to be near to their places or residence.

Officers from the Indian Postal Service have served in the Army Postal Service on depuation on lower posts.

Thank You

AP said...

Thanks Navdeep Sir. Your services will be remembered by generations of service officers.

Anonymous said...

This appears necessitated to avert clash of seniority between Defence and Civilian Officers . It is difficult to say whether a civilian officer with an emolumens of Rs.37,400/- + Rs.8,600 or Defence service officer with Rs.37,400 + Rs.8,000 + Rs.600o/- is senior.

Anonymous said...

Confusion persists over PMO letter on forces’ pay

New Delhi, Jan 1 (PTI) . : http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/AC7C2992CFE55BA265257531004A4BC1?OpenDocument

and

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/AC7C2992CFE55BA265257531004A4BC1?OpenDocument

Hours after the announcement of a separate pay commission for the armed forces and inclusion of Lieutenant Colonels in Pay Band-4, defence officers in the services headquarters here feel that more clarity was needed on the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) letter before it could be implemented in its present form.
In the absence of a formal notification, a separate pay panel for the armed forces may just remain a proposal till the next pay commission, which is likely to be set up only a decade from now, they feel.

However, top government sources said that it was just a matter of time before the government notifies the decisions and implements them.

With regard to Lt Cols finding themselves in Pay Band-4 (Rs 37,400-67,000), officers say the differentiation between “combat” and “non-combat” roles was not defined in the Services and hence it would be difficult to deny the pay band to just some of the Lt Cols.

While on deputation to other services, the Lt Cols continued to be armed forces officers, and hence not providing Pay Band-4 for those serving the country in departments other than the defence forces was not practical, they say.

Regarding parity of grade pay for officers from Captains to Brigadiers, the Services wondered if there was any other committee high powered to decide on the issue than the one headed by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, which currently looking into the issues raised by them.
HAPPY NEW YEAR.

Anonymous said...

Forces await orders on pay band change
By Our Special Correspondent
New Delhi
Jan. 2: The armed forces have yet to receive any formal communication from the government, a day after the Prime Minister’s office (PMO) approved the placement of lieutenant-colonels in the "Pay Band 4", sources in the armed forces have pointed out. Sources in the armed forces said that there needs to be more clarity on the government’s decision and that the armed forces are awaiting a formal communication. Interestingly, the letter from the PMO to the ministry of defence (MoD) states that lieutenant-colonels will not be sent for deputation henceforth and that those lieutenant-colonels in their parent service and in "combat or ready to combat" arms will get the pay hikes after placement in the fourth pay band.

The letter from the PMO states that instead, Majors and Colonels should be sent on deputation. The PMO has already ordered the formation of a high-powered committee (on issues of parity) to decide on command and control issues. Lieutenant Colonels already on deputation will have to return to their parent service to avail of the pay-hikes. The armed forces had earlier pointed out there were enormous disparities in the salaries of lieutenant colonels compared to their counterparts in the bureaucracy, the police and the paramilitary forces.

"The PMO’s letter could open a huge pandora’s box. How can a distinction between combatant and non-combatants be made? How can lieutenant-colonels already on deputation be denied the pay-hikes? Why can’t lieutenant-colonels be sent on deputation? Why have the parity issues not been settled? The formation of another high-powered committee will only delay the matter," sources in the armed forces said.

Meanwhile, defence minister A.K. Antony said on Friday that the "lieutenant-colonel issue" has been "accepted now except certain minor things" and that "finding a solution is a continuing process".

http://www.asianage.com/presentation/leftnavigation/news/india/forces-await-orders-on-pay-band-change.aspx

sushil said...

Hi
What about the status of Cdr(Lt Col equiv) who get posted on Coast Guard Ships. I feel they are not posted on their choice and therefore should be put in PB4. Can someone clarify this matter

vellore said...

A rider while implementing the PB-4 to Lt Cols and equivalent ranks.
I think the main reason for this rider are threefold:
1) The govt does not want to give the imression that after all they were right in placing Lt Cols in PB-3, in the first place.
2) A review was forced due to the strong resentment by the forces. A "concession" was made by the Govt. by moving "some" Lt Cols to the PB-4-but these have to be only those offrs who were in combat posts and if not, at least "combat ready".
Needless to say, all Army officers are supposed to be "combat ready" at all times, unless they are in a low medical category. All that is needed to move an officer in any post to actual combat is an Op Immediate signal directing the officer to move "Forthwith."
It is therefore very clear that the PMO has conceded to place all the Lt Col to PB-4, while actually not appearing to have given in to pressure!

Bagga said...

Dear Major Navadeep,
Thanks for clarification on deputation. Excellent research indeed. Can you throw some light on "combat or combat ready" terms. Do the postings of Naval "Commander" to Coast Guard be considered as Deputation.....
Since the Officer is posted not by choice I feel they must be considered in PB4 with appropriate GP...
What are your views

Harry said...

@ All Service Bro

It gives me immense pain to go through what is supposedly the text of confd letter written by PMO to MoD. Firstly, lt cols have been given GP of 8000, may I ask what's the rational behind it? Incidently this is the lowest GP in PB4 now, as earlier lowest was 8700 (to my mind). How does this solve the problem of status, I fail to understand! Our contention was lt cols are equal to IAS dirs and CPOs (YES CPOs and NOT repeat NOT CPMFs) comdts, so how has that been addressed, can anybody put me wise please? Why does training period of 1/1.5 year NOT count towards service for us, when as-it-is we are so much behind in promotions to AIS cadre? How can an IPS offr with 14 year service (as DIG) be ever equivalent to a Brig with 28+1/1.5 years service? Similarly how can a 16 years IAS JS be ever equivalent to a 32+1/1.5 year Maj Gen? And yet I have NOT talked of No of offrs making it to JS in IAS and Maj Gen in Army(and equivalent in AF & Navy) or for that matter DIG in IPS and Brig in Army (and equivalent in AF & Navy). Has the polity of this great nation become mere "Dhritrashtra"? Surely the honourable PM does understand such stark facts!

So whats the recourse? Well those with honour have only One recourse left .. that is to resign en masse! And when we flood the "rotten system" with deluge of mass resignations, expressing our despair at the treatment meted out to the Armed Forces by the polity (now we can't just blame the Babooz), believe you me, this will force the powers that be to, not only sit up but get jolted and see how promptly things get sorted out!

Anonymous said...

I feel that accepting this formula is absolutely detrimental to our service as a whole. The overriding aspect of "deputation" included in the text is an attempt to humiliate our cadre, especially since in most of the other cadres officers 13 years of service are in PB4 with a grade pay of 8700. I wish we do not accept this revised scales and stick to our demand for eoual grade pay for Lt Col and consequently higher grade pay for Col and Brig.

Anonymous said...

My dear Maj Navdeep,
This is the letter of PMO which has been published by India Today
(http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24274&sectionid=4&Itemid=1&issueid=87]

Letter from PMO to Ministry of Defence
Full text of the confidential letter:
Refer meeting on November 28 with the EM and RM
i) Lt Colonels in their parent service holding combat or ready to combat jobs may be placed in PB4 and may be given a grade pay of Rs 8000. Lt Colonels on deputation may be given PB4 and Grade Pay of Rs 8000 only when they return from deputation to their parent service
ii) While the dispensation in Para (i) above may apply to Lt Colonels already on deputation, in future no Lt Colonel may be sent on deputation. Only Majors and Colonels may be sent on deputation.
iii) A high powered committee may be set up to resolve command and control functions / status of armed forces officers vis-à-vis paramilitary forces and civilians
iv) In future, pay revision of armed forces may be delinked from civilians and separate board set up for the armed forces.

If so, it is plain and simple. It does say or mean firstly Lt Cols:
(a) In Parent Service
(b) In combat service or ready to Combat service (All units are combat units under MoD except a few like MES or Survey of India or Base workshops, CVD etc. All Medical units are combat organisations except MNS may be)
(c) Not On Deputation (I think this largely has been explained by you but might have been inserted to Cater for the uncomfort exhibited by MEA Foreign Service Offcers to upgradation of Lt Col to PB-4. They think Lt Col of 35 years should be at Par with their JAG in MEA when on deputataion with various Ambassies and not be at par with director who generally is around 40 years age. They have strange ego hassels and complexes. They are true reflection of the tradition and mindset of Vedies (knower of Vedas) and their classification into one vedi, Dwivedi, Trivedi and Chaurvedies. In order to overcome that problem, it has been suggested not to send Lt Col on such " deputations. Fine let it be at that. When it comes to MES and such organisation they are under MOD and an internal matter as the paying organisation is MoD. Classically it would not be deputation. It is something like a service officer posted to MoD as Chief security Officer. That is not deputation but a posting. MES can not claim posting to them as deputation. However, it is non combat organisation. So what let Major be a GE. Other organisations such as AR, NSG, Cab Sec all are Combat postings.
(d) It has been clearly mentioned that "the dispensation in Para (i) above may apply to Lt Colonels already on deputation" and in future No Lt Cols are to be sent on deputation. It clearly means that all Lt Cols on deputaion will revert back to Parent service and PB-4 and GP8000 granted to them .

It has not mentioned any Number like 12000 or so. That number is an inside MoD / PMO spoiller hinting at some insiders negetive mindset which will have to resisted by the three services. The direction of the PM are clear that the modalities will be worked out in consultation with the Services HQ.

That should putt all speculations on the subject to peace. Broadly speaking all Lt Col and equivalants are PB-4 and GP8000. Unfortunately, in the absence of some fundamenatl rights, it is not a negotiated outcome arrived at in a democratic manner or an outcome of "Industrial Action" as alleged by some and hence still lacks in the qualities of "mutual satisfaction" and "mutual acceptance". The Govt of the day must concede that it still is one sided decision of the Govt. Hence the Govt should not allow any one such as MoD upstarts, IDSE or CSS to fiddle with it unnecessarily and create further chaos.

Jai Hind
Sony

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep

It is combat job not combat service. What does it mean. Will officers of ASC, AEC etc will get it? Wll their job will be classified as Combat job at a station like HYDERABAD etc? Please clarify?

Anonymous said...

Dear All,

At 13 years of service

Director = 37400 + 8700 = 46100 Rs PM.

Lt Col= 37400+8000+ 6000 = 52400 Rs PM

plus DA on MSP about Rs 840 PM at current rate. Total advatage = 7140 approx.

Not right...not satisfied..???? Ye dil mange more..?????? Give back MSP and take 8700 GP ???

The only way out is to bring Col selection at 14 years of service. Selection and award of NFSG to selected ones at 14 years of service. Select Brigs at 18 years of Service... select Maj Gen at 20 years of service.... Let Maj gens be the longest serving gen...

Allow PB-4 supper Night carry on for others..

First of all, set right the MSP as given in Pay commission Recommendations ... That is very necessary and important..

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir,

The Classification of Status in Modern India : Funny But True :

Shri KM Chandrasekhar and his CoS are true Indians and they have upheld the Centuries old Clssification of Knowers of Vedas by introduction of Pay bands as Follows:

PB-1 = Agnihotry or Vedi.
PB-2 = Dwivedi
PB-3 = Trivedi
PB-4 = Chaturvedi.
PB-5 = Rajarishies
Secy Grade = Bramha Rishies
Cab Sec Grade = Param Bramha Rishies with Brmhaastras with them.
Politicians = Lesser Gods
Ministers = mighty Gods
PM (including non or extra Constitutional) = Lord visnhu and Mahamaya Kaali / Durga depending on sex.

PM or equivallants sons / daughter = Lord Ganesh, the Vighneswara and Vignaharta.

Jai Ho..Jai Ho... Revolutionary System ki Jai Ho.

FC said...

@ Navdeep. one of my friend has to proceed on transfer to cost guard ship. They get 1000/- as deputation allown also but pay from navy. Do you call this as deputation and will he be in PB4 ? or PB3?
if you can clarify this doubt.
thanks.

Anonymous said...

DACP for Defence Doctors, anybody any idea about the latest? Its already implemented for all other Central Govt Doctors.

Anonymous said...

A service officer is posted to a combat Unit. When not, he is always "ready to Combat" as he can be asked to join a combat unit Forthwith...??? Even if he is deputed to MEA or an ambessy abroad...

That means every one commissioned into Services is actually combat ready....

Anonymous said...

Adverse Impact on Army Operation Efficiency Due to PMO Orders

Army officer's Promotion Zone being Major 6 years to Lt Col 13 years, Col 18 to 19 years, means officers between 6 and 13 years will be required to be sent on deputation denuding Combat units is not feasible and advisable due to many reasons.

That is the time frame for tactical / operational development of the Combat Arms officers. He is required to attend two major Career course and DSSC /TSC. One would expect him to undergo minimum three terrain types of operational experiences during this time. Then only he would be fit to be a good company commander / 2IC fit to take over command of unit. This is the major development period for a combat Officer. A tenure of two to three years on deputation at this juncture would adversely impact his military upbringing and availabilities for his parent combat unit.

This is also a crucial functional and operationally important age group of officers. Denuding Fighting Arms of this age group officers by sending on increased vacancies of deputations may not be operationally advisable.

This is going to crate problem for RR, AR, NSG, Coast guard and Cab Sectt. All these units need right mix of service brackets of officers on deputations.

Just in order to mollify egos and interests of rich and uninised and influential MES and BRO lobbies, the three Services should not allow the operational efficiency of their units and deputationally supported units to suffer. It is above the narrow and money making interest of BRO and MES. This administrative order is adverse for overall operational efficiencies and therefore needs to be reconsidered by MoD and PMO.

Or the above Fighting or Combat units be exempt from such orders of deputation as such deputations are held on supernumerary strength of their Parent Combat Units.

Deputations on Non Combat assignment is also subject to officers being Combat ready. Hence this order has been issued without due examination and application of mind.

Reconsideration is called for.

Ajith said...

PB-4 is made applicable to combatants only.
Combatants in armed forces or anyone who is 'ready' to combat!.
Civil equivalent of combatants are those civil servants who are engaged in combating such menaces as income tax and vigilance raids as well as anti-corruption drives.
At last the the high powered(sorry, a little less powered as the high powered is yet to arrive) group of ministers and bureaucrats have given us something to muse.
One humble suggestion to MoD to make it more entertaining.
You can give PB-4 plus GP minus MSP to all those who are 'ready' to 'combat' and MSP minus PB-4 plus GP to all not ready to combat but are forced to surrender.
Justice Srikrishna must be feeling silly for not getting such wonderful ideas earlier.
PMO has also made it clear that no more negotiations on this as the negotiations are limited with black mailers and vote catchers in parliament, Pirates in the sea hijackers in the air and underworlds and terrorists in the land.

Anonymous said...

I am sory to question at the resk of annoying MES/BRO lobies, is it justified to call officers and men posted in these org as combatants, what then will be left non combatants? Tomorrow civilians of BRO will also claim equal work equal pay as they are covered by Army Act?

Anonymous said...

Dear maj navdeep,

DACP,Its already implemented for all other Central Govt Doctors.what about army doctors

please clarify

tiwari said...

HI
WHAT WOULD BE THE CASE OF A NAVY COMMANDER POSTED ON A COAST GUARD SHIP.
WHAT DOES "DISPENSATION" IN PARA 2(ii) OF PMO NOTE MEAN
DOES IT MEAN THAT THOSE ALREADY ON DEPUTATION WOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR PB4 IMMEDIATELY HOWEVER, NO FURTHER DEPUTATIONS TO CG SHIP FOR LT COL/ COMMANDERS
IS POSTING ON A CG SHIP A DEPUTATION

PLEASE CLARIFY FOR ALL THOSE COMMANDERS POSTED ON COAST GUARD SHIPS
LASTLY IF THEY ARE NOT PUT IN PB4, WILL THEY GET THE ENTIRE ARREARS ON RETURN TO PARENT SERVICE

Anonymous said...

Dear Major Navdeep,
Needed your views on two issues.
Alfa . When would the proposal on deputation mooted by the PM take effect? Would it be immediately or after the recommendations of the next committee of GoM are approved?
Bravo. Will status quo be maintained as far as officers being posted on Deputations is concerned till the Govt Order takes effect (which could be a few months away if not more)?

Anonymous said...

Will someone clarify the fate of Lt Col(S) pensioners. They are defenitely on conbat duties.

Disturbed Soldier said...

Does Republic Day have any meaning for us.With all the slimy bureaucrats smiling that they have cut us down to size, what the Pakis coudnot do.

Anonymous said...

Well it seems that most of the people have already stopped talking of status. They are now interested to know what constitutes combat ready or otherwise. These directions from PMO must be based on some recommendations given by GOM. Is it not duty of hierarchy to explain the logic behind their decisions concerning the armedforces. And if we do not know the rationale or lack of it, how do we represent our case when another committee meets to decide the status?

How do we explain placing LtCol between Jt Dir& Dir?

Anonymous said...

FANTASTIC, after umpteen years of service holding a rifle in one hand and a Khukri in the other, I'm now wondering if I'm a 'combatant' or not !!!

Anonymous said...

All,
We in the services have a fixed mind set, anything which is not to our way of working/liking is taken as injustice, unworkable, bias and this and that. We must curb the habit and try and take things little differently on merit and try to understand others point of view also.
The new grade pay has no reason to be lower then what is the lowest of that pay band,I can,t find a justification for that,however I do not find in PM,S letter any thing anywhere which is detrimental to Lt Col,s interest or for that matter to any other service. why must we send our Lt col on deputation, after all they are the cutting edge(did,t we say so) and certainly must remain with units/ Formation HQ,s.THERE IS A NEED TO COME OUT OF PERSECUTION, INSTINCT.We must not accept PB4 with 8000.The GP disparity is what must be resolved.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Observer said...

I fail to understand this obsession of attributing everything unpalatable/inconvenient to IDSE/MES/BRO. Are the services so clueless as to not able to counter these entities or is it that they i.e. the services have no case at all? How come neither the bureaucrats nor the politicians nor media is convinced of the so called grievances of the services. Can all the people go wrong all the time?

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,
The following seem to be the directive from the PMO as reported by one of the press.

"Full text of the confidential letter:

Refer meeting on November 28 with the EM and RM

i) Lt Colonels in their parent service holding combat or ready to combat jobs may be placed in PB4 and may be given a grade pay of Rs 8000. Lt Colonels on deputation may be given PB4 and Grade Pay of Rs 8000 only when they return from deputation to their parent service

ii) While the dispensation in Para (i) above may apply to Lt Colonels already on deputation, in future no Lt Colonel may be sent on deputation. Only Majors and Colonels may be sent on deputation.

iii) A high powered committee may be set up to resolve command and control functions / status of armed forces officers vis-à-vis paramilitary forces and civilians

iv) In future, pay revision of armed forces may be delinked from civilians and separate board set up for the armed forces."

The following may please be clarified.

1.The english here is preety confusing.By using " may" and not "shall or will" will the choice of implementing pb4+ GP8000 be optional.

2.Does point 1 of PMO also mean that Lt Col on deputation will be upgraded to PB4 but retained on GP 7600 till such time that they return to their parent unit.

3.Does Lt Col deputed to AHQ, DRDO, DGQA,MES,GREF,Coast Gaurd, NCC, NSG..etc on "tenure basis" qualify for PB4 + GP 8000. TENURE BASIS MEANS HERE " A TEMPORARY DEPUTATION".

4. How will the missive apply to permanantky seconded Lt Col to the above mentioned organisations.

Request your comments on the same

Regds

Anonymous said...

Navdeep, the source of the text is a publication from India Today dated JAN 02, 2009

Regds,

Anonymous said...

can anyone or Maj NS clarify

1. instrs on Air Travel.

2. Whether Non Availability Cert is manadatory in case 'Status Accn' is not being provided in the stn. ( request a link for further read, if possible ).

3. Whether Children Edn Allce is only applicable to children studying in Cl one and above.

shall be oblized..

Anonymous said...

Dear navdeep
Thanks for a detailed analysis of deputation.However,if text of PMO letter in TOI is correct ,it is required to be critically examined

The first para of PMO letter reads..

"i) Lt Colonels in their parent service holding combat or ready to combat jobs may be placed in PB4 and may be given a grade pay of Rs 8000. Lt Colonels on deputation may be given PB4 and Grade Pay of Rs 8000 only when they return from deputation to their parent service"

Here combat readiness is not the issue but holding ready to combat jobs even in parent service is the criterion.

Thus Lt Cols posted in MES or BRO(not holding ready to combat jobs) do not qualify above criterion even if their posting is considered as within parent service and not on deputation.

Those who are already on deputation shall get the pb4 & gp 8000 only on return to parent service.

second para reads....

ii) While the dispensation in Para (i) above may apply to Lt Colonels already on deputation, in future no Lt Colonel may be sent on deputation. Only Majors and Colonels may be sent on deputation.

From above, two things are very clear
1.GOM has finally concluded that Col is eqivt to Civilian Dir.

2.The Govt does not want to allow Lt Cols with gp 8000 to continue working side by side in organisations where civilian/paramillitary component exist.

thanks

Anonymous said...

Please note the figure " 12,000". They say it will benefit 12000 Lt Cols. This means only 3,000 Lt Cols will not be benefitted. It is likely that this 3,000 include Lt Col (MNS), Permanent Officers of NCC and may be Lt Col (SL) - Only a wild guess.

Anonymous said...

Government of India can reduce defence buudget considerably if it mainatain better deplomatic relations with our neighbors and make them accept maximum number of our "Baboos" on deputation to their countries.

Anonymous said...

enlighten yourself, this is the idse president's report

ADDRESS BY SHRI N K SHARMA, PRESIDENT IDSE ASSOCIATION ON THE OCCASION OF 30TH ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING OF THE ASSOCIATION ON 11 JUNE 2008


1. Dear members, on the occasion of Annual General Meeting, I welcome all our esteemed guests who have spared their valuable time to be with us on this occasion.

2. At this juncture, I would like to remind you that the present council became the unique one as the members elected their President through secret ballot for the first time in the recent history, there by opening and strengthening the democratic process in the Association.

3. I would like to emphasize that the aim of our association has been to carry our officers together to uphold the dignity, role and responsibility of our organisation and simultaneously to safeguard the legitimate aspirations of our members. My earnest appeal to all our members has always been that we should first think of our duties before thinking or talking about our rights and privileges. On the other hand, it is the duty of office bearers of our association to impress upon the Cadre Management in E-in-C’s Branch and Cadre Controlling Authorities in the Ministry of Defence to get the legitimate aspirations of our members met with. It is a matter of great satisfaction that IDSE Association has reached a stage where all members have a faith in the body which is striving hard to meet the aspirations of a large fraternity of MES Civilian Officers. I am proud to say that IDSE Association and its officers are not only concerned about their own cause but are able to come forward and rise to any occasion or eventuality. This can be well apprehended from the fact that the association’s drive to help the family of our colleague Late Shri SK Jatana was well received by all our officers and we were able to collect and hand over an appreciable amount to the family. The effort and enthusiasm shown by the officers of Chief Engineer Ahmedabad Zone is worth mentioning.

4. The expectations from MES by the Ministry, all the Armed Force Services, Ordnance Factories, DRDO, Coast Guard, DGQA etc are obviously high and why should not it be? Therefore, it is of paramount importance that we should sharpen our professional approach and managerial capabilities so that our users can further develop confidence in MES. One of the major drawbacks in this regard is that MES, which is one of the biggest and oldest departments under Govt. of India, do not have any organized training.

5. The Association has been struggling for its rights and aspirations for the last more than 30 years and has achieved a lot. However, our final goal to have a separate head of Department is yet to be achieved even though all other Departments having lesser manpower, workload and area of jurisdiction have their own Head of Department. The necessity for having a separate head is obvious in the existing scenario. However I would like to briefly bring out its reasons for information of the fellow members especially the younger ones who have joined us during the period. The workload of MES is much higher than that of CPWD, which is headed by an officer in scale of Rs 26000/- (fixed) while MES continues to be headed by Engineer-in-Chief of Corps of Engineers, an officer in the scale of Rs. 22400-24500 (Lt Gen), as additional charge. This arrangement which was visualized eighty five years back when manpower state of MES was a fraction of the present state is still continuing even though with the passage of time, MES has grown manifold and is having Civilian component of 93%. MES is still continuing under the E-in-C who is not borne on the strength of MES. This is proving to be detrimental in the functioning of MES. IDSE officers are professionally competent and they have every right to head this organisation like any of the other Services under Government of India. Provision of a separate Head of Department for MES has already been recommended by the various high level studies carried out by the Government of India viz., Estimates Committee of Parliament and lately the 5th Pay Commission. It may not be out of place to mention here that world over MES has been civilianized including the British Government.

6. Solution to all our problems whether professional excellence, organizational development or career advancement revolves around the provision of separate head. We have been making a concerted effort in this direction and shall continue to do so till the time we are able to convince MOD the inescapable necessity of separate head for MES reporting directly to them.

7. Except this long-term goal, there have been several achievements in our continuous struggle with the management for which we shall always feel grateful to the MOD and thankful to the members for pursuing them constantly. The major achievements occurred in the preceding years and those under advance stage are brought out, as under for the general information of the members, however they shall be taken up in detail in the report of the Secretary.

(a) Inclusion of our service to Central Staffing Scheme.

(b) Clarification on reimbursement of residential telephone to the officers of the level of EE (SG).

(c) Clarification on number of posts for SEs.

(d) 3rd Cadre review proposals.

(e) MES Establishment sanction.

(f) Channel of reporting.

(g) Station amenities etc.

8. Apart from the above issues, for the first time in the history of our Association, the main council clarified its clear and firm stand on attending Corps Day. I would like to extend our sincere thanks to the members across the country for their wholehearted support to the call of the Association to make it a grand success and expect the same in future.

9. Certain trivial issues were raised by self claimed Col Commandant of MES. Again I would extend my sincere thanks to the members across the country and the council for extending their moral as well as written support especially by the young blood, in replying to the commandant. However, the senior civilian officers did not bother to respond the issue. Let me request all, unless we respond to such issues in a bold and united manner, they will keep sending feelers to disturb us.

10. Now I would like to put certain road maps for the future. There is definitely a need to go for the amendment to the constitution of the Association.

(a) The members in the council from out side Delhi to be inducted.

(b) Postal and net voting to be adopted.

(c) The members shall not hold appointment in the council for more than two years continuously.

(d) The council members shall give a prior under taking that He / She shall not be holding any executive / sensitive appointment for at least one year after relinquishing the appointment from the council.

11. There is certainly a need for bringing transparency in the posting / transfer. Certain measures need to be implemented on priority:

(a) The guidelines on posting to be converted to policy.

(b) Bio data of the members to be available on net.

(c) Warning to be issued to the members prior to the posting in a transparent manner.

(d) Transparent and logical system of allotment of post to be followed.

(e) Piecemeal issue of posting needs to be arrested immediately.

12. After the submission of 6th CPC report the status of Chief Engineers and Principal Directors is clear and in no uncertain terms their status is comparable to the status of Major Generals and Brigadiers respectively. I request all the officers to stop reporting to equivalent and / or junior Army officers. I am sure in our endeavor; even the ministry would come to our rescue, as they would not like to compromise their status.

13. This can be very conveniently achieved once we make an effort to de-link MES at command level and ADG may be placed as an advisor to Army Cdrs on all MES matters including manpower management. I request all of us to draw inspiration from our freedom struggle. British did not go away because they were tired and wanted to go back, rather the situation was such that they were forced to go back. Similarly the situation is required to be created so that either they go back or if they have to stay they should stay as a part of us and we get our due share of post and status.

14. MAP has been created on the grave of MES, but unfortunately MES officers are primarily running MAP. In case we are able to account for the vacancy of MAP, we may reduce the stagnation at the level of EE (SG) and we shall be promoting the 87 batch officers to the level of Director who are presently stagnating at the level of Joint Directors.
15. Clear and elaborate policy on deputation, short courses and study leave needs to be defined and followed in a transparent manner.
16. Lastly, I would like to touch upon an issue where the problem as well as the solution lies within us. At this juncture, I remember a Doha of Kabir
“Kasturi kundal basey, mrig doondey mun maahi.
Aise ghut mein peev hai, duniyaan jaaney naahin.”
The average man of the world goes about his daily life not knowing that subconsciously he is seeking the Absolute truth, the Beloved in the jeev. The mind-body equipment of man contains this Beloved yet he seeks for it everywhere else but within. The musk deer attracted by its own scent searches for it in the woods. Little does it know that in its body is the source of this fragrance?
In simple words kasturi is present in the deer but it searches it in the jungle. Similarly our enemies are sitting within us and we search them among Army officers. Statistics would prove that our own officers cause the maximum damage to an IDSE officer or to a great extent we ourselves are instrumental. Today the situation is so alarming that a civilian officer wants to serve under an Army officer as he gets a good ACR for very little effort where as with civilian officers the ACR is not commensurate to the effort put in may be due to certain other considerations. It is my unrest request to all that let us create an environment where the civilian officers are not harmed by us through the tool of ACR irrespective of their conduct. However other mechanisms may be adopted to correct the officer in case felt necessary.

16. Before I end my speech, I consider it my duty to thank all the office bearers of outgoing council for giving me the support in carrying forward the activities of the association and hope that the new council will continue to work with more vigor and zeal to further enhance the cause of the association. Lastly, I pray to the Almighty to shower peace, happiness and good health to all officers, staff and their family, so that we, together, bring laurels to this organization and thus the nation.

Thanks a lot again to each and everyone.

Anonymous said...

another one, they operate with a plan

MESSAGE FROM IDSE PRESIDENT : 05 JUL 2007


Dear Members,

1. We have identified 23 SEs all over India who are reporting to Colonels in various formations. All these officers have been advised through a letter to lodge their protest and submit representations to the head of the formation/Defence Secretary. Copy of the letter written to the SEs is placed at Appx ‘A’. The list of these SEs is as under. Officers in the local chapters are requested to motivate these officers for lodging protests/representations.

LIST OF SEs


1. Sh. Ramachandran - CE Chennai Zone

2. Sh. US Prasad - CE (Fy) Hyderabad Zone

3. Sh. GS Mehra - CE (Fy) Hyderabad Zone

4. Sh. HK Bhandari - CE Southern Command, Pune

5. Sh. Vinay Kulkarni - CE (AF) Nagpur

6. Sh. CP Borkar - CE (AF) Nagpur

7. Sh. MM Bhatia - ADG (OF & DRDO), Secunderabad

8. Sh. SK Gupta - CE (A&N) Zone, Portblair

9. Sh. IB Duggal - CE (A&N) Zone, Portblair

10. Sh. RK Sharma - CE (Navy) Mumbai








11. Sh. RK Bansal - CE (Navy) Mumbai

12. Sh. NK Prinja - CE (AF) Palam

13. Sh. NK Goel - CE Northern Command, Udhampur

14. Sh. Amaresh Chandra- CE LucknowZone

15. Sh. Goutam Roy - CE Eastern Command, Kolkata

16. Sh. MC Gupta - CE (AF) Shillong Zone

17. Sh. Manoj Kaushik - CE (AF) Shillong Zone

18. Sh. Chitranjan Singh- CE Shillong Zone

19. Sh. Ravi Sinha - CE Shillong Zone

20. Sh. Yogesh Singhal - CE Jallandhar Zone

21. Sh. GR Verma - CE Jallandhar Zone

22. Sh. Shiv Kumar - CE South Western Command, Jaipur

23. Sh. MP Gupta - CE (AF) Bangalore


2 The concerned formations have also been requested to place these SEs directly under CE/PD. Copy of this letter is placed at Appx ‘B’. It is to inform you that not even a single SE is reporting to Colonel in E-in-C’s Branch and three out of six Command CE Offices. Wherever our officers have represented/protested against. they have been placed directly under CE/PD.



Dated : 05 Jul 07 (RK Tyagi)
Presidesnt



Appx ‘A’
Dear Sh Ramachandran,


EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN SUPERINTENDING ENGINEER AND COLONEL


1. I am writing you this letter in connection with observance of protocol and status of lDSE officers wrt service officers.

2. It is brought out that Superintending Engineer is senior to Colonel by virtue of pay scales. Our association has taken up this issue of equivalence with MOD and it is under active consideration of higher level.

3. It is noted with concern that certain Superintending Engineers are working under Colonels without voicing any protest against such arrangement. It will not be out of place to mention that whenever IDSE officers have protested against such arrangement they have been given independent status or brought under Principal Director.

4. Acceptance of such illegal arrangement is detrimental to morale of cadre in general.

5.. May I request you to put up protest against such arrangement with a copy to all higher headquarters including MOD. A draft representation is enclosed for your reference.

With regards,


Yours Sincerely

Sh Ramachandran, Dir
CE Chennai Zone
(RK Tyagi, IDSE)
President
Appx ‘B’
Letter written to formations


EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN SUPERINTENDING ENGINEER AND COLONEL


1. I am writing you this letter in connection with observance of protocol and status of lDSE officers vis-a-vis service officers. Superintending Engineer is senior to Colonel by virtue of pay scales and has been re-designated as Director by MOD. In this connection you may kindly refer Min of Defence Gazette notification dt 12 Feb 07 issued for Boarder Roads Organisation where civilian officers and service officers from Corps of Engineers work together similar to MES.

2. It is noted with concern that certain Superintending Engineers have been placed under Colonels in your HQ. This is incorrect and against the rules and also detrimental to morale of lDSE officers in general and healthy relations between service and civilian officers in particular.

3. May I request you to kindly look into the matter and remove such anomalous situation at the earliest.

With regards,
Yours Sincerely
Dated :
(RK Tyagi)
President









To,
The Defence Secretary,
Ministry of Defence,
South Block,
New Delhi.
(THROUGH PROPER CHANNEL)

INCORRECT CHANNEL OF REPORTING

Respected Sir,

1. It is submitted that I am working as Dir ( ) and reporting to Colonel. This channel of reporting is incorrect and illogical as explained below.

(i) Pay scale of SE (Rs 14,300 – Rs 18,300) is higher then that of Colonel (Rs 15,100-Rs 17,350) (The higher end of the pay scale determines which scale is higher). Rank pay is not to be included for the purpose of status as per MOD letter no 19(19)/99-D (MS) dt 4.05.2000.

(ii) MOD vide letter dated 17 Nov 2003 have redesignated the SEs as “Director” in staff appointments including E-in-C’s Branch where “Colonel” is also designated as Director. It is pertinent to mention that no SE in the E-in-C’s Branch is reporting to a Colonel.

(iii) SEs and Colonels work as colleagues in executive appointments as CWE, which implies that they are equal rank. The same Colonel cannot become boss to the SE when both are posted to CE Zone/Command in Staff appointments.

(iv) You may kindly refer Min of Def Gazette notification dt 12 Feb 07 issued for Boarder Roads Organisation where civilian officers and Service officers from Crops of Engineers work together similar to MES.

(v) Post implementation of AV Singh committee report Lt Cols are posted as GEs/Dy CWE and working under SEs (CWE). Therefore, it is quite illogical to say that SEs and Lt Cols are equal.

2. It is regretted to intimate that my Chief Engineer has placed me under Colonel despite my personal representation against it. It is needless to mention that this arrangement is illogical/incorrect and also against the CCS/CCA Rules. It is requested to direct Engineer In Chief to implement correct channel of reporting.

Thanking You

Yours Sincerely


(Xyz)
SE
Dir
Dated: Jun 2007

Copy to: -
DG (Pers), MES

Advance Copy
Defence Secretary, Min of Def
Engineer-In-Chief, Army HQs

Anonymous said...

check this one, they want msp also

President :
Sh NK Sharma
Tele : 9999884361

Vice President:
Sh PK Jain
ACE
Tele : 9999884362

Secretary :
Sh VK Reddy,SE
Tel : 2569 2391 (O)
: 2569 1037 ®
: 9999884363

Jt Secretary:
Sh RK Gautam
EE (SG)
Tel : 2301 9018 (O)
: 24517071 ®
: 9999884364

Treasurer:
Sh Naveen Kumar
EE (SG)
Tel : 2301 9022 (O)
: 27304257 ®
: 9999884365

Council Members:
Sh MK Gupta
SE
Tele : 9999884366

Sh P Maniyar
EE (SG)
Tele : 9999884368

Sh Neeraj Mehrotra
EE (SG)
Tele : 9999112731

Sh Kamal K Arora EE(SG)
Tele : 9999884369

Sh Kamal Nayan
AEE
Tele : 9999884371

Sh VK Gautam
AEE
Tele : 9999884370
Sh. A K Antony
Hon’ble Minister of Defence
South Block
New Delhi - 110010

MEMORANDUM ON SIXTH CPC RECOMMENDATIONS

Respected Sir,

1. Military Engineer Services (MES) is an inter service organization under Min of Defence. MES provides works services to all the wings of Defence like Army, Navy, AirForce, DRDO, Ordinance Factories etc..

2. Indian Defence Service of Engineers (IDSE) an organized Gp ‘A’ service comprising of 1025 Gp ‘A’ Officers is the largest engineers cadre of MES. Our grievances / anomalies on 6th CPC recommendations are submitted herewith as Appx ‘A’ in the form of memorandum for your perusal please.

3. The memorandum may please be forwarded to the Empowered Committee of Secretaries set up by the Govt. to look into the anomalies of sixth CPC.

Thanking you,
Yours sincerely


SD/xxx
( V K Reddy )
Dated : 19 Apr 2008 Secretary

Copy to :-

1. Lt Gen R R Goswami
E-in-C
Integrated HQ of MoD
E-in-C’s Branch
Kashmir House
Rajaji Marg
New Delhi

2. Shri J B Sharma
DG (Pers)
Integrated HQ of MoD
E-in-C’s Branch
Kashmir House
Rajaji Marg
New Delhi



President :
Sh NK Sharma
Tele : 9999884361

Vice President:
Sh PK Jain
ACE
Tele : 9999884362

Secretary :
Sh VK Reddy,SE
Tel : 2569 2391 (O)
: 2569 1037 ®
: 9999884363

Jt Secretary:
Sh RK Gautam
EE (SG)
Tel : 2301 9018 (O)
: 24517071 ®
: 9999884364

Treasurer:
Sh Naveen Kumar
EE (SG)
Tel : 2301 9022 (O)
: 27304257 ®
: 9999884365

Council Members:
Sh MK Gupta
SE
Tele : 9999884366

Sh P Maniyar
EE (SG)
Tele : 9999884368

Sh Neeraj Mehrotra
EE (SG)
Tele : 9999112731

Sh Kamal K Arora EE(SG)
Tele : 9999884369

Sh Kamal Nayan
AEE
Tele : 9999884371

Sh VK Gautam
AEE
Tele : 9999884370
MEMORANDUM FROM
INDIAN DEFENCE SERVICE OF ENGINEERS (IDSE) ASSOCIATION

Military Engineer Services (MES) is an inter services organization under Min of Defence. MES provides works services to all the wings of Defence like Army, Navy, Air force, DRDO, Ordinance Factories etc. Indian Defence Service of Engineers (IDSE) an organized Gp ‘A’ service comprising of 1025 Gp ‘A’ Officers is the largest engineers cadre of MES. Grievances / anomalies on 6th CPC recommendations are explained in the subsequent paras.

1. Parity of SEs (Superintending Engineers) with Conservator of Forests : The point was considered by 5th CPC in detail at Para 50.45 and the parity with conservator of Forests was cemented further by the commission as already established by all the earlier commissions. But while recommending the scale the commission erroneously recommended separate scales for SEs and Conservator of Forests. The extracts of the 5th CPC is reproduced which is self explanatory.

“50 45 We would, however, like to make an exception only in the case of Superintending Engineers. It is a fact that the Second CPC had already established a parity between Superintending Engineers and Conservators of Forests by granting them both the scale of Rs. 1300 – 1800. This parity was cemented further by the Third CPC which observed that “ For the post of Conservators of Forests we recommend the scale which we have recommended for the Superintending Engineer grade of the Central Class I Engineering Service viz. Rs. 1800 – 2000.” For the selection grade of Conservators of Forest, the same commission stated that “ a selection grade of Rs. 2000 – 2250 should be introduced for the Conservator of Forests, on the same principles as recommended for the Selection Grade in the Central Class I Engineering Service.” Taking into the account the significant role of engineering services in the nation-building process and the fact that the promotion prospects in engineering cadres are rather bleak, we recommend that NFSG of Rs. 4500 – 5700 should be converted into a single functional scale for Superintending Engineers and the scale of Rs. 3700 – 5000 should instead be the non functional JAG for Exe. Engineers. However, in order to avoid too fast rate of promotion in certain cadres to this grade, it is further recommended that promotions to the scale of Rs. 4500 – 5700 would be permitted only on completion of 13 years of service in Group ‘A’. Although the above recommendation is being made in the context of CPWD engineers, it is clarified that this dispensation will be available to all Engineering cadres in the Government.

In view of the above it is requested that the Pay scales of SEs be placed in the pay Band of PB4 (i.e. Rs 39200 – 67000 ) with the Grade Pay of Rs. 8400.


Contd…2..

- 2 -


2. Pay band of Addl Chief Engineer (Rs. 16,400 – Rs. 20,900) from PB 3 to PB 4
Gross injustice has been meted to the Addl Chief Engineer (Pay scale S-27 Rs 16,400 – Rs 20,900) by placing them in PB 3 where as other pay scale S-28 (Rs. 14,300 – Rs 22,400) has been placed in PB 4. This will result in a glaring anomaly which is explained below by an example.

“One Addl Chief Engineer is presently in the pay scale of Rs. 20,900 (say he has reached the max of pay scale). He will be fixed as per 6th CPC at Rs 36,370 + grade pay in the pay band of PB3. Another officer in the pay scale of S-28 (Rs. 14,300 – Rs 22,400) is at the lowest pay of Rs 14,300. This officer as per the 6th CPC will be fixed at Rs 39,200 + grade pay. Thus an officer of scale S-27 who was drawing Rs 6,600 (Rs 20,950 – Rs 14,300) more in the pre-revised pay scale will be drawing Rs 2830 less in the revised pay scale as compared to the officer of S-28 scale.

In view of the above, it is requested that this pay scale (S-27) (Rs. 16,400 – Rs 20,900) may please be placed in the pay band of PB-4

3. Military Service Pay (MSP) for MES Civilian Officers: The status of civilian officers of MES is neither civilian nor Military in true sense. All the disadvantages are available to them. They have to under go frequent transfers as Military personnel and serve along with them even at difficult area like Srinagar, Sonmarg, Leh etc without any benefit. As such whenever they are posted to such locations the MSP should be provided to them. However they may not be payable to them in case posted to peace areas on the similar lines of the military counterpart.

4. Acute shortage of officers in Army - Withdrawing of Army officers from civilian organizations :-

(a) Army is short of about 12000 officers and therefore regiments are starving for officers. At the same time large number of Army Officers are posted to many civilian organizations like :-

(i) Military Engineer Services (MES)
(ii) DRDO
(iii) Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA)
(iv) Survey of India
(v) Border Roads Organisations.

(b) Military Engineer Services is basically a civilian organization. At officers level 50% of the posts are occupied by Army Officers and 50% by Civilian Officers. At Gp ‘C’ and Gp’D’ level 97% of staff are civilians.
Contd…3..

- 3 -


(c) 5th CPC vide para 33.15 recommended gradual civilianization of this department so that Army Officers are utilized for core functions of Army. Extract of 5th CPC recommendation is given below :-

“ We find that the Armed Forces have deployed their manpower in several areas not related to their core functions. If the Armed Forces withdraw from such areas the manpower released can be utilized to meet the reported shortages of officers and men in the three services. Our specific suggestions in this regard as under :

The Armed forces need not divert their manpower to organizations like Survey of India, Directorate General of Quality Assurance, Defence Research and Development Organisation, Military Engineer Services, Border Roads Organisation, etc. There should be a gradual civilianization of all these organizations and the officers can be used for core functions.”

(d) In view of the above Army Officers may be withdrawn from the above mentioned organizations and utilized in Army regiments to make up the acute deficiency being faced by Army. To start with the present ratio of 50% may be reduced to 25% in MES immediately to tide over the shortage of officers in Army.

5. Injustice to middle level officers :-

(a) It is disappointing to note that the pay of middle level officers of STS, JAG, JAG (NFSG) has been fixed at much lower as compared to Jt Secy and Addl Secy level. The details are as under

Sl No. Level Pre-revised pay Revised pay Jump
1 STS 10,000 17,400 1.74 times
2. JAG 12,000 20,880 1.74 times
3. JAG (NFSG) 14,300 24,890 1.74 times
4. Jt Secy 18,400 43,280 2.35 times
5. Addl Secy 22,400 48,990 2.19 times

(b) From the above it is evident that gross injustice has been meted to middle level officers. Therefore it is requested that minimum jump at all levels be kept at least 2.35 times.
Contd…4..

- 4 -


6. Delinking cadre review proposals which are already in pipe line from 6th CPC :- The commission had clarified that the cadre review is beyond the scope of commission and accordingly the cadre review proposals of MES were being examined at various levels. However the commission in its report at para 1.2.13 has recommended that creation of additional posts in SAG and above in future has to be strictly on functional consideration and such posts should invariably be created outside the cadre to be filled by method of open selection. This type of blanket ban may be applicable to general Gp ‘A’ cadre posts but the same may not be applicable to technical posts. It is clarified that the posts in MES are technical being engineers.

Once the report of the commission is examined and implemented the fresh cadre review proposals may not be initiated by the administrative ministries in the line of recommendations of the commission. However the proposals already in the pipe lines which are in advanced stage may not be stopped rather they should be completed expeditiously delinking them from the recommendation of 6th CPC.


7. Grade pay of Gp ‘A’ cadre posts :- As on today the status of JAG level officer is equal to colonels of Army and similarly STS level officer is that of Lt Colonels. As per the 6th CPC the status has been downgraded by one step for Gp ‘A’ civilian officers.

Therefore it is requested to increase the Grade pay of JTS, STS and JAG levels to Rs 6100, Rs. 6600 and Rs 7600 respectively.

Anonymous said...

last one

Shri Man Mohan Singh
Hon’ble Prime Minister of India
Prime Minister Office
South Block, New Delhi-11

Sub : Neglect of Engineer Services, the mainstay for development in the
country by 6th CPC : demand for equal pay with IAS.

Respected Sir,

The Engineering Services of the Govt. of India, which are responsible for creating all infrastructural facilities, have been neglected and have faced a general apathy from the Govt. both in empowering them to discharge the duty of creating infrastructure for the Nation but also in managing the cadre of these services at par with other central government services. As a result of this neglect over years, the morale of the Engineering Service Officers is abysmally low. Their status and independence has been steadily undermined and these services have been systematically made subservient to the other generalist services of the Govt.

The members of Engineering services are selected through the Combined Engineering Services Examination held by the UPSC after acquiring minimum qualification of graduation in Engineering. Most of the officers selected for Engineering Services are graduates and post-graduates from IITs and other prestigious Engineering Colleges of the country and it is only the cream of students from schools and colleges who secure admission in IITs or other prestigious Engineering Colleges. While professionally they are tied down by the system and their merit is ignored, the officers who were once acknowledged as the best brains of the country, on personal level also, are relegated to a subservient position when compared with officers of the Generalist Services in the Govt set up. What to talk about the IAS officers, the officers of other non technical group ‘A’ services like various Accounts Services and Revenue Services have a superior status as compared to the officers of the Engineering services in terms of pay, perks housing entitlement and holding important
Contd..2..
- 2 -

positions in the Govt. because of the slowest promotion prospects in Engineering Services.

The condition of officers belonging to Indian Defence Service of Engineers belonging to MES is even worse. The promotion prospects in this service are worse than even Group ‘B’ services like Central Secretariat Service, DANICS and other security services etc. MES is a service department and its officers have to interact with the officers of all other departments on a day to day basis in order to execute their works or maintain their infrastructure. They find these experiences very humiliating as officers of the other departments, though much junior in service, hold command due to faster promotions as compared to Engineers. Similarly, when the officers of Engineering services go on deputation to other departments, most of the time have to work under the officers who are much junior to them in terms of length of service.

Administrative and Non Technical cadres do not treat the Engineering cadres with any amount of dignity and respect that ought to be given for their contribution to creation and maintenance of assets without with no Govt. can successfully deliver its products for social change and economic development. This paradox requires to be understood and eliminated. The only way is to give proper recognition to the contribution made by /technical Cadres. A few measures that the Govt. must take urgently to rectify the situation are listed below

1. The Cadres of these services need to be reviewed immediately without any further delay so that these officers get a position of respect in all the overall system of the Govt.
2. The Engineers need to be given adequate training and exposure, both in India and abroad, to equip them to meet the challenges of modern construction.

Contd..3..
- 3 -

3. They need to be made part of the policy making stratum of the Govt. and their working system needs to be drastically simplified to encourage creativity. The present procedure oriented systems which bring in more of outside controls should be replaced by self motivated work culture.

4. Parity of Superintending Engineer (SEs) with Conservator of Forests as recommended by 5th CPC.

5. Pay band of Addl Chief Engineer (Rs. 16,400 – Rs. 20,900) to be upgraded from PB 3 to PB 4.

6. Pay to be fixed at 2.35 times the old pay scale similar to Jt Secy level.

7. Withdrawal of Army Officers from civilian organizations like MES :-

(a) Army is short of about 12000 officers and therefore regiments are starving for officers. At the same time large number of Army Officers are posted to many civilian organizations like :-

(i) Military Engineer Services (MES)
(ii) DRDO
(iii) Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA)
(iv) Survey of India
(v) Border Roads Organizations.

(b) Military Engineer Services is basically a civilian organization. At officers level 50% of the posts are occupied by Army Officers and 50% by Civilian Officers. At Gp ‘C’ and Gp’D’ level 97% of staff are civilians.


(c) 5th CPC vide para 33.15 recommended gradual civilianization of this department so that Army Officers are utilized for core functions of Army. Extract of 5th CPC recommendation is given below :-
Contd..4..
- 4 -



“ We find that the Armed Forces have deployed their manpower in several areas not related to their core functions. If the Armed Forces withdraw from such areas the manpower released can be utilized to meet the reported shortages of officers and men in the three services. Our specific suggestions in this regard as under :

The Armed forces need not divert their manpower to organizations like Survey of India, Directorate General of Quality Assurance, Defence Research and Development Organisation, Military Engineer Services, Border Roads Organisation, etc. There should be a gradual civilianization of all these organizations and the officers can be used for core functions.”

In view of the above Army Officers may be withdrawn from the above mentioned organizations and utilized in Army regiments to make up the acute deficiency being faced by Army. To start with the present ratio of 50% may be reduced to 25% in MES immediately to tide over the shortage of officers in Army.

We would like to end with a word of caution, as participation of the private sector in development of the country’s infrastructure is in a big way, the Govt. must wake up to the fact that private sector, in its effort to recruit skilled Engineers finds the Govt. Engineering Services rich harvesting ground by offering not only very attractive remuneration, by also a better working environment and autonomy to the Engineers working with the Govt. Under the present working conditions in the Govt., a number of engineers are already opting for these career opportunities that not only provide professional satisfaction and dignity, but also monetary gains. This movement may result in Govt. finding it difficult to even monitor the quality of infrastructure being created by the private sector due to paucity of competent engineers in the Govt. to take care of national interest. It is an accepted fact that the Govt. can not offer the same salary as is being offered by the private sector, but the least the Govt. can do is treat its
Contd…5…
- 5 -


engineers with respect and dignity and restore their position and status in the system of governance. A large number of IITians in Civil Services rather than in Engineering Services is a proof that Engineering Cadres are not considered good career option.

Finally, to conclude the Engineers in the Govt. should not be made sub-servient to the members of other services and they should be given adequate freedom pertaining to their area of activities and their cadre matters. They should not be humiliated by being forced to report to junior officers of other services, holding higher position in the system of Govt. by virtue of a discriminatory system of cadre management.

We would request the Govt. to ensure 6th Pay Commission recommendation should be modified to put members of Central Engineering Services Gp ‘A’ at par with the members belonging to IAS. It should be ensured that after implementation of 6th CPC recommendations members of each examination batch of Central Engineering Services draw the same pay as drawn by the members of same batch of Indian Administrative Services.

Thanking You

Yours sincerely

SD/xxx
( V K Reddy )
Dated : 30 April 2008 Secretary



Contd..6..
- 6 -


Copy for information and necessary action to :-

1. Sh A K Antony, Hon’ble Minister of Defence, Govt. of India, South Block, New Delhi-11

2. Hon’ble Minister of Personnel & Administrative Reforms, Govt. of India, North Block, New Delhi-11

3. Hon’ble Chairman, Administrative Reforms Commission, Vigyan Bhawan Annexe, New Delhi-11

4. The Secretary, Expenditure, Ministry of Finance, North Block, New Delhi-11

5. The Secretary, Ministry of Defence, Govt. of India, South Block, New Delhi-11

6. Lt Gen RR Goswami, E-in-C, E-in-C’s Branch Kashmir House, New Delhi-11

7. Sh J B Sharma, DG (Pers), E-in-C’s Branch Kashmir House, New Delhi-11

8. Sh S K Srivastava, Gen Secretary, Central Engineering Service Group ‘A’ (DR) Association, CPWD, Room No. 216 ‘A’ Wing Nirman Bhavan, New Delhi-11



( V K Reddy )
Secretary

Harry said...

@ Anonny on 03 Jan 11:48 am

U said..

Dear All,

At 13 years of service

Director = 37400 + 8700 = 46100 Rs PM.

Lt Col= 37400+8000+ 6000 = 52400 Rs PM

plus DA on MSP about Rs 840 PM at current rate. Total advatage = 7140 approx.

Not right...not satisfied..???? Ye dil mange more..?????? Give back MSP and take 8700 GP ???

The only way out is to bring Col selection at 14 years of service. Selection and award of NFSG to selected ones at 14 years of service. Select Brigs at 18 years of Service... select Maj Gen at 20 years of service.... Let Maj gens be the longest serving gen...

Allow PB-4 supper Night carry on for others..

First of all, set right the MSP as given in Pay commission Recommendations ... That is very necessary and important..



I say the following:-

Pls get ur facts right..

IAS Dir will get 4 addl increments
as follows:-

37400 + 37400*o.03 = 38522
38522 + 38522*0.03 = 39678
39678 + 39678*0.03 = 40868
40868 + 40868*0.03 = 42094

so Dir's basic is 42094 + 8700 and NOT 37400 + 8700 as incorrectly mentioned by U, so the diff between Lt Col's and Dir's basic is 42094 - 37400 = 4694
if u incl DA @ 16 % it comes to 4694 + 4694*0.16 = 5445. In addn there is difference of 700 in GP as well. Plus incl DA @ 16 % on this 700 which totes up to 812. So difference comes to 5445+812=6257

So there U are, even with ur compensation for vagaries/hazards of Military life (Rs 6000 as MSP) an IAS Dir is still better off by Rs 257/-

So friend, stop living in a fool's paradise. Don't think U can get better of cunning Babu!!

And yes dont forget IAS Dir gets his grade at around 12 years (incl trg) and U get it only after 13 years (excl 1/1.5 yr IMA trg period) i.e dir is already ahead of Lt Col by atleast 2/2.5 yrs. So dunno what makes U sooo overjoyed buddy!!

Anonymous said...

Regarding Equivalance to MES

The Sixth Pay commision has clearly ruled that within the same grade, seniority will be decided upon taking into account facotrs like NPA and MSP.

So in the interse seniority MSP has to be taken as a factor.

But how is IDSE calling itself Group A Organised cadre ?. Can these be Converted into poineer TA TA units.

They should also be employed for minefield clearing jobs all along the LOC on contract basis / TA basis. Or just disband this force as there are thousand of Engineering Companies in the country to undertake cheaper and better maintainance and construction. Safty of assets during mobilisation can be outsorced to some security agencies.

MES manpower should be offset to raise three mountain divisions and one mountain Arty division. We do not want a meter reders or a BSO floating around and targetting only commodes for cracks and pocketing cost of commodes.

That is what is the best the MES does.

Anonymous said...

@Annoy 10.23
Ha-ha-ha..it appears that you are yet another ignorant person who knows little about MES. You want to outsource details of your strategic assets? Docks, harbours, Air Fields, Ammunition Stores, World class DRDO labs, Ordnance Factories...Outsourcing of construction of houses through MAP has failed miserably...AFs are yet to get houses which were supposed to be completed 5 years back (please check.

Anonymous said...

Dear all,
Every service in the organisation has its role. Efforts should be directed towards development of each and every component and obtain synergy. We must appreciate the expertise of each other. No one is less or better. Please restrain from making any sweeping statement..If you feel strongly about an issue and do feel compelled to write about it, do it in a professional manner ie write a complete analysis supported with facts and figures.

Anonymous said...

We are a nation where the nation is not sure of its identity. We have no history which is authentic since it has been warped to suit political agendas. 1000 years of rule has left us with no national pride. Some glaring exhibitions of our lack of national pride are:
• We carry out human chains, condolence meetings etc to remember 26/11 but not one single act of resentment of the 1/1/09 Assam blasts.
• We take to the streets when a single paisa is increased in fuel/taxes but will not bother about the demoralization of the Armed forces.
• We elect a Govt headed by a suspect foreigner who runs an outfit that threatens our neighbours like bullies. When kicked in the shin we whimper and run for our Yankee Momma.
• We respect a police whose best cops are ‘encounter specialists’.
• We think the best way to reform the police is to give them high rate of fire automatic weapons. Imagine the collateral damage in a shoot out.
I think we should abdicate to a foreign Raj. The Armed forces are demoralised and not one citizen has taken to the streets in support. Today ex-servicemen are on a hunger strike totally ignored by an ungrateful nation. The Armed forces rethinks its loyalty for a Nation administered by con men. After the 1971 war it is said that the Pakistan army used to vow every day during roll call that they would avenge their defeat. This led to Op Topac where we have been subjected to a thousand cuts. Today the armed forces are seething from the insults at the hands of the Congress Govt and their bureaucratic sleeping partners (literally). The apolitical and majestic Indian armed forces have been dragged to the streets. The results will be catastrophic. Thank God the Congress is only capable of hot air. A war would have been a rude shock for the nation. History should record the bureaucrats and politicians behind the conspiracy to demoralise the Armed forces and when the debacle takes place these people should be brought to trial. The bureaucrats grudgingly pass political dictates with anomalies to confuse, delay and harass. After destroying the Nation they have now targeted the last bastion of hope. The Politician cannot be blamed. He is in the chair for 5 years. The Bureaucrat settles in for 33 years and parasites on the nation. THE ENEMY IS WITHIN.

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Anonymous said...

@ALL FROM MES,

Having seen MES in last 30 years of my service life, I am of considered view that Armed Forces can do without their presence amongst them.

The quality of houses they construct,quality of services they provide and harassment mated out to service personnel is scandalous. Wonder how they have survived for such a long time. What amazes me most is that they continue to harass at this blog as well with their farcical inputs. Their nuisense value is ever lasting, I thought they harass Service personal in cantonments only during handing taking over of accommodation etc.Wonder how they are working overtime here, Without any monetary incentives.

I am not from Engrs hence not affected otherwise. Just think you are meant to serve the services and not to create nuisance for them.It is time to tryout something different.

DISBAND AND REPLACE MES. RELIEVE US FROM THEIR DISSERVICE AND HARASSMENT.

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Anonymous said...

@1.39 pm
Sorry correction Command CE Maj Gen

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Anonymous said...

dear Navdeep,

I appreciate your sense of Freedom of Expression but this blog should not become a source and spot for MES Vs Engrs fight.

Let them wash their dirty linen in E-in-C branch. It is fact that E-in-C is their head and they are an auxillary engineer cadre. Terms and Service conditions at entry by them is well known and they should not be allowed to put things upside down simply because they are a union. Who will right whoes ACR is frivilous issue.

The main thing is that MES will remain under Army as they have been created for that purpose or let them be merged with CPWD where their percentage will be reduced.

It is also a fact that Army Engineers or Civil ones, in MES and BRO are the most irresponsible and most corrupt organisation under govt of India and something needs to be done about it.

No good Engineer officer ever want to touch these organisation even with a barge pole let alone serving there.

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Anonymous said...

Anonymous said

last war was in 71
if police loose u can come back but if army loose a war u are finished.

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RK said...

This is for all those who have been splitting hairs of the news report "12000 ODD Lt. Col. AND THEIR EQUIVALENT IN THE OTHER TWO SERVICES" should understand that this 12000 has not included the Wg. Cdrs & Cdrs.So be rest assured there is nothing to be read in this 12000 figure as many of you have been doing.

Also, most of you have been stuck upon this Combatant & Non-Combatant clause.Everyone from the Army,Navy & Air Force (also those from the regular service posted to NCC) is a combatant or ready for combat except MNS.

For all those Lt.Cols who are pre-2006 pensioners are apprehensive that they may be denied the benefit of PB4 because of this non-combatant clause must understand that the "pension is granted for the previous services rendered" & all of you have served as Combatants when in service and should be paid for the same.So all pre-2006 Lt.Cols will get pension as per PB4 i.e. 50% of 37400+8000(GP)+6000(MSP)=25700/-.

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Anonymous said...

@all...

yes i agree disband MES...as such they are outsourcing everything including complaint cells to contractors...so is the case with BRO...they r also outsourcing every work as pioneers r no longer used for constructing roads etc by BRO..infact BRO is one of the biggest HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATORS ...they all give a technical break in the service of all Casual Labours so that they donot become regular cadre...JUST DISBAND THEM...A LOT OF PROBLEM WILL BE SOLVED WHICH INCLUDES THIS SENIORITY AND STATUS PROBLEMS...

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Harry said...

@ Annony at 2:19 pm

Brother, lets not quibble amongst ourself.. just go outta ur house and ask anybody on the street who commands more respect Army or Police.. and tht will leave u red faced !

Anonymous said...

@Mr ha ha ha from MES at 1.39,

I am not interested in who is heading what orgnisation, I wrote about the ground realities,about the man who comes to fix the leaking water tap or rectify the faulty electric connection and hands over/takes over the house.

I do,t consider you to be so naive that you are not understanding the issue.In any case who bosses over the service is a different issue and I will like to maintain some distance from that topic for now. However you got to think about doing something about the quality of services being provided in every cantonment by your people who are from MES cadre and controlled by your cadre officers in majority of cases.Take a try and if you succeed than talk about who should head what! till then enjoy your bounty in safe environment of the cantonment, secured by the same uniformed man whom you specialise in harassing.

Relax friend,do something towards presence of your staff at the MES complaint center, ask/ensure that they pick up the tele and attend to mundane tasks which is assigned to them. I am sure you will be exhausted and stop worrying about who should head your service.

Anonymous said...

@harry
bilkul sahi
bunker ban gaye mendhar main
harry so raha ghar main
karta hai pb 4 ,pb -4
koi bole to kehta hain
mat karo shor
hum hain pure kamchor

Anonymous said...

option kitne open hai isse pata chalta hai ki war nahin hona hai aur hua to kalai khul jayegi .

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Anonymous said...

Are wo MES Chor,

Abe Terrorist to Taaj bombay men bhi ghus gaye.. Too Mendhar ke Forward position ki Baat karta hai, wo to LOC par hai...wo to roj hota hai Beta..wo bunker unke marane ki liye hai..

MES wale Fiqar mat kar.
Na chhuppa dil ka dar
Wo to ab marane ayen hain..
Bunkar ne Bahut gole kahyen hain..
Unko Zanat ham Pahunchainge
Bunkar ko phir banayenge
MES ko Nahin Bulayenge

Na Pareshan ho too wo MES wale
Kar Na Dil Ko gamon ke Hawale
Tujh tak Na Pahunchane denge usse Ham
Too Apana Khoob Commission Khale

Kyon Pareshaan hai wo ghoos lene wale
"Mendhar" ke Bunker ka kyon dard paale
Khush rah aur MES men khoob Maal Bana Le
Yahi Kaam hai Terra Saale

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Harry said...
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Anonymous said...

ab bat khuli hai, to door tak jayegi.......

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Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,
Dont u feel that some check is reqd before allowing these comments to be publicly published..see what level people have reached upto.After all it all can be seen by everybody..even our worthy neighbors.


@All..Think urself..Is it correct for us to wash all our dirty linen "HERE".

Anonymous said...

Someone posted this on Livefast..How true..
• The Home Minister is going to the US to sob on their shoulders.
• Pakistan has told us to go climb a tree. A gum tree.
• A much smaller state like Israel goes to no one, seeks no support and kicks the posterior of those who dare to threaten their Nation.
• Our PM cannot blink an eyelid without the approval of an Italian woman sans allegiance to the Indian Nation.
• Our Nuclear facilities have been mortgaged to the US.
• The Armed forces have been demoralised. They no longer trust this govt. or the bureaucracy.
• There is gag order against reporting about the military being adhered to by a self professed free press of a democratic country. This was the same press that conned the Indians by having their reporter crawling while the cameraman was standing to create a frenzy of panic. The terrorists used our media as a force multiplier to control their operations. The bureaucrats used the media to hide the subversion of the Armed forces. Don’t be surprised if the foreign press starts reporting the mishandling of the Military.
• The Supreme Commander of the Armed forces is blissfully silent when the Armed forces are fighting their degradation but is up and ready for fish-n-chips at Cochin with all the pomp and fanfare. Anything for a free meal. When she nibbles on the goodies hope she does think of those who have given their best years for the wholeness of the Nation.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony at 6.35

Yes I agree.
All such comments deleted.

Anonymous said...

Fm 6.35

Thanks..

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IndianACE said...

An army offr in MES is not on deputation. Besides the legal status explained by Navdeep, the army offr is ACR reviewed by an army officer who would be his IO or RO or SRO. Further he is combat ready as he undergoes periodic BPET tests and wears Combat Uniform each friday. Any one has any doubt/ opinion to the contrary?

All MES units undergo adm inspection by an army officer of appropriate seniority.

All OC Troops in MES estts- Ensure your BPET registers are uptodate and Stn HQs can be asked to certify. Firing can be excused as your unit does not hold weapons.

I hope our brasspots in the E-in-C's br are thinking on their feet.

And all army officers are requested keep your wits about. Start collecting incriminating data about the MES in your station. We will yet f--k these IDSE upstarts. Hound them out of the MES.

We owe it to the uniform. Don't bank upon the brasspots to be any help.

Anonymous said...

the dicision is rediculous. I pity these babus about their vision. This means lt col working in combat/field when posted to place other units on so called deputation will loose money?? Why the hell he should go there ??
all those presently posted should immediatlely ask for combat posting ??If ofr is retiring from the so called deputation sation his pension will be as per PB 3 and offr of same seniority in combat will be as per pb 4, what a stupidity. if offr gets posted alternately from combat to deputation his pay will do flipflop between pb3 and 4. Only saddist can think like that. Babus if u can answer this ??

Kots said...

Pay Band 4 for Lt Cols Confusion Persists
Some interesting reads are

INDIA SALUTES AND BOOTS ITS UNKNOWN SOLDIER on India Retold http://vinodksharma.blogspot.com/2009/01/india-salutes-and-boots-its-unknown.html

Confusion persists over PMO letter on forces' pay on PTI http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/AC7C2992CFE55BA265257531004A4BC1?OpenDocument


I agree it’s a welcome step and signifies some progress towards removing the anomalies that exist. It needs to be commended despite the confusion in nitty-gritty’s of it’s actual implementation by the Service HQ’s. As I perceive the main concerns that were raised by the Service Chiefs have been:
 Earlier, PBOR used to draw a pension in proportion to their years of service, but according to the reviewed report, the PBOR will get pension half of their last pay drawn.
 The extant parity of Lt Cols lowered by retaining them in Pay Band-3 (Rs 15,600 - 39,100), while raising similarly placed civilians and paramilitary officers to PB-4 (Rs 37,400-67,000).
 Restoration of parity in grade pay for lower and middle rung service officers with their civilian counterparts.
 All DGPs and their equivalents placed over Lt Gens by creation of HAG+.
While the first two appears to be settled to an extent I think we must wait and watch, there is still a lot which needs to be clarified. Doubts revolve around:
Deputation.
Fig of 12K on combat role.
Classically the deputation/ secondment in Armed Forces is to following organizations and is often by default and never by choice.
AR/ RR/ NSG.
MES, BRO, GREF, NCC etc other Tri service organizations.
DRDO, CQAE n host of other civ heavy organizations under MOD.
While the 1st one stands resolved in totality, 2nd agreed with a cap of 12K Nos only. The last two demands not addressed and are going to continue to be irritant in functioning. The orgs that are going to be affected are Tri Services and the formations in CI. Now with DGPs placed over Lt Gens will they be working under Corps Cdrs in J&K and NE States?
The implementation of PB4 too appears to be uphill task for the services to decide as to who will get the hike and whom to exclude. The issue of extant parity is of more concern for those on deputation to DRDO and CQAE where in many Seconds in Command, Lt Cols have started drawing lesser salary than their subordinates. At places I am told these subordinates had conveyed their reluctance to take orders from offrs drawing less salary and even indicated that they should be reporting on these Lt Col’s and not the vice versa. I know it sounds ridiculous how can an individual who for ages has been the Boss and suddenly relegated to be subordinate to whom he has been controlling and are lower in rung as far as status and Warrant of Precedence is concerned.
To my mind there is a Silver lining in the cloud, colleagues at service HQs at the helm of affairs have smartly circumvented the insensitive classes (I need not name them) who, are hell bent on degrading the status of Armed Forces. Do we really have 12K Lt Cols and equivalent offrs? As per rough estimates we have a sanctioned strength of 68K offrs and with a deficiency of approx 12K what is left out is figure of 54K. Can there be more than 12K Lt Col and equivalent offrs in three services out of 54K? With implementation of Ph I of AVSC recommendations 750 posts tenable by Lt Cols have been upgraded to Cols. In Phase 2 another 1896 posts are yet to be upgraded implementation of which has already commenced so soon Lt Cols are going to be much sought after and a rare variety. Lets hope it’s true and all are in PB4.
In case what I said is not correct, think that only option left out to Service HQs to do what some commenter has brought out on this forum that there is active consideration to decide the yr from which Lt Cols will graduate to PB4. It may not be automatic at 13 Yrs of service. So lets wait for a while for fog to clear and let there be a fair deal to all. The matter needs to be kept alive and demands constant persuasion. It should not be swept under the rug.
Most Important NOT to get emotionally hurt and get distracted by comments like
“At 13 years of service
Director = 37400 + 8700 = 46100 Rs PM.
Lt Col= 37400+8000+ 6000 = 52400 Rs PM plus DA on MSP about Rs 840 PM at current rate. Total advatage = 7140 approx.
Not right...not satisfied..???? Ye dil mange more..?????? Give back MSP and take 8700 GP???”
My answer will be - take my commitment, responsibility and sufferings along do you have any thing of that sort to exchange?

Anonymous said...

@ indianACE
can these mes guys have their mess?
idse are running a mess in pune (cheap engineer pune zone) ?

Anonymous said...

kots, I couldn't have agreed with you more.well thought off,i should say.I hope your assumption goes right.

Btw,the lawyers, teachers and doctors have been beneficiaries of the pay comission in the recent past.We should ask the respective ministry, if they were "decision ready","teaching ready" and "surgery ready" respectively to qualify for pb4.Going by this yard stick, I gather every military personal irrespective of the rank he/ she holds is combat ready n should automatically qualify a PB4 band.

Pity that I served this organisation selfless for the last two decades and being equated to people who know not the meaning of selfles service, dedication and sacrifice.Thank you PMO !!

Anonymous said...

a small correction please...."decision ready" may please be read as "judgement ready".

I appologise for my mistake.

Thank You.

Anonymous said...

To All My Friends in MEs
DRDO has done away with MES Totally in their Technical/Operational areas and has created an Organisation called CCE(R&D), do you all know why? It is because they could not tolerate the Inefficiency, Ineffectiveness, Delays etc etc of MES. The day is not far when MES would be totally done away with everywhere or would be simply merged with CPWD, keep your fingers crossed

Anonymous said...

I am afraid, this interpretation of the term deputation is misplaced. Prior to any such posting to either the NCC or to DGQA or to DRDO, a consent is taken from the offr and the MS branch is a donee org and the concerned org is the acce[ting one. Only then does a posting take place. Thus, in the realms of fauji rules, these are deputations and will affect the org in the long run!!

Amod A Kher said...

Dear Maj. Navdeep Singh:

I want to know if you were in Kendriya Vidyalaya in Colaba, Bombay in 1983-1985.

Thanks, Amod

pawan said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,
following was the pay structure of IDSE officers as per Vth CPC :-Ans . The hierarchy and pay scale of IDSE cadre is as under:-
Post Pay Scale
Addl DG Rs 22,400 – 24,500
Chief Engineer Rs 18,400 – 22,400
Addl C E Rs 16,400 – 20,000
S E Rs 14,300 – 18,300
E E* Rs 12,000 – 16,500
E E Rs 10,000 – 15,200
Astt E E Rs 8,000 – 13,500
* Non functional selection grade.

What will be the pay scale of IDSE officers under 6th CPC ?

Anonymous said...

may i ask babus in delhi to publish SAI quickly,

Observer said...

@ Navdeep &all

It seems the issue of pb4 to Lt Col & equivalents has been reduced (atleast on this blog) to battle of wits between civilian(read IDSE)offrs and Corps of Engr offrs as if service officers in other branches of armed forces are not affected or as if MES consists of IDSE(about 1000 in number) only. I would like to be enlightened as to how the Lt Cols will be benefited status wise if IDSE or rather all civilians in MES are done away with. Ditto for BRO. By making an SE report to a Col in MES/BRO(Organisations controlled by service officers)Does a Col really become senior/superior to a Director(IAS/Non IAS)?

Baskar said...
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Anonymous said...

I know that some of my comments will be deleted by so called Maj Navdeep... and he has deleted my comments.. anyways i know that this is not a forum to report correct things and that i expected from farji Maj Navdeep...

Anonymous said...

Sir,
I require a few clarifications :

Firstly, is it necessary for MS branch to take willingness from an officer before posting to DGQA.I stand posted to DGQA and MS branch did not seek my consent.

Secondly, I read on a news channel that 'Armed forces have rejected the PMO letter'(Timesnow - 29 Jan 09)and a letter signed by a vice admiral has gone to MOD.

What is the likely fallout of the above on, firstly, deputation and secondly on PB4 for Lt Cols.

I shall be grateful for your informed response

Anonymous said...

what is JSW rank in MES?

sathyanandan said...

Respected Sir,


Civilian Motor driver grade I and MCM were equal grade pay of Rs. 2800/- till the implementation of 6th pay commission. Now the Grade pay of 14 % of MCM have been upgraded with the grade pay of Rs. 4200/-. Court verdict during 2001was as follows: "
……..to grant the applicants the pay scale of Rs.1400-2300/- for the Master Craftsman/Head Staff Car Driver, presently existing in the Railways, from the date of filling of the OA and to grant arrears and to allow consequential benefits."
50% of senior most Civilian Motor Drivers (Staff Car Drivers) have the right to get promotion as Special Grade, in the Grade pay of Rs. 4200 in the pay band 9300-34800( at least 14% at par with MCM) those who are completed more than 20 years regular service due to the following reasons:-.

As per the latest policy, only 5% of senior most Civilian Motor Drivers ( Special Grade) (Staff Car Drivers) are getting the Grade pay of Rs. 4200 in the pay band 9300-34500 at the time of retirement on completion of 35 to 37 years of service, due to the introduction four grade structure i.e. Ordinary grade, Grade II ,Grade I & Special grade in the grade ratio system of 30:30:35:5 respectively. Now as per MACP scheme the grade pay will get after 30 years of service. It was a good move. However. earlier there was three grade structure such as Grade II ,Grade I & Selection grade, which was in favour to CMDs. Second promotion as selection grade were getting the pay scale of Rs. 1320-2040 which was equivalent to Rs. 5000-8000 in the 5th pay commission comparing to the pay scale of MCM. The four grade structure promotion has been introduced wef 1993 instead of three grade structure with the grade ratio system of 30:30:35:5, which was very adversely affected promotion of Civilian Motor Drivers (Staff Car Drivers)with comparison to all other group C categories. ACP was not granted to Civilian Motor Drivers, the only category exempted, which is an extreme injustice to the driver category. ACP Scheme was better than the promotional scheme granted to the drivers with effect from 1993.

De-merging of grade structure of MTDs had created great financial loss and introduction of ratio system had damaged the promotional avenues.

All those who are initially appointed in the Group ‘C’ category ( including skilled industrial personnel), were granted the Grade pay of Rs. 4200 in the pay band 9300-34500 after completion of 24 years under ACP scheme except Civilian Motor Drivers (Staff Car Drivers) . The semiskilled industrial personnel who are appointed before 1982 whose initial basic pay was Rs. 75 & Rs.85 in the 3rd pay commission (at that time MTDs were drawing initial Basic pay of Rs. 110/- similar to LDC) and got more than three promotions and more than two financial up gradations were granted the pay scale of Rs, 5000-150-8000 after completion of 24 yrs under the ACP Scheme

However, CMDs were not covered with the ACP Scheme who are Group ‘C’ (Skilled) employee since the Independence of India are not granted the pay scale of Rs 5000-150-8000 after completion of 24 years of regular service under ACP scheme and which is really a demoralizing discrimination

Therefore, the grade ratio of CMD (Special grade) has to be revised to 40% instead of 5% and the implementation of three grade structure in case of Civilian Motor Drivers (Staff Car Drivers) also by merging the CMD Gde I and Special Gde into one grade is very essential in the ratio of 30:30:40 as the 50% senior most CMDs are having more than 24 years of regular service. That is a genuine request for justification or time scale promotion be recommended to Civilian Motor Drivers (Staff Car Drivers) as per court verdict. As soon as CMDs Gde I who are completing 3 years are eligible for promotion to CMD Special grade and the promotion has to be granted forthwith. As Justice delayed is justice denied

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