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Friday, December 5, 2008

Wages down the ages : A comparative analysis of Army and Indian Forest Service (UPDATED)


A lot has been said on this blog and elsewhere on the Indian Police Service and the Army. As remarked here earlier by a retired flag officer of the Indian Navy, the 6th CPC has been less than honest while visiting history. The historical tables on Page 73 have faced much flak here and elsewhere. Other than IPS, another service having close links with the military has been the Indian Forest Service which forms the triumvirate of ‘All India Services’ alongwith the IAS and IPS. Military and Forest Service Officers have enjoyed close and cordial ties through the ages, maybe it has something to do with the close proximity of the IMA and FRI, I don’t know :-). But here is how the salaries and pensions have compared through the Pay Coms with reference to the rank of Lt Col :
(Note : The Selection Grade of the Indian Forest Service is actually a time-scale based grade which is achievable by 100% Forest officers in 13 years of service)



Selection Grade of Indian Forest Service : Rs 1650-1800

Lt Col : Rs 1750 – 1950


Selection Grade of Indian Forest Service : Rs 825

Lt Col : Rs 875



Selection Grade of Indian Forest Service : Rs 4100-5300

Lt Col : Rs 4700-5900


Selection Grade of Indian Forest Service : Rs 2050

Lt Col : Rs 2350



Selection Grade of Indian Forest Service : Rs 14300-18300

Lt Col : Rs 15100-18700


Selection Grade of Indian Forest Service : Rs 7150

Lt Col : Rs 7550



Selection Grade of Indian Forest Service
: Rs 37400-67000 + Grade Pay Rs 8700

Lt Col : Rs 15600-39100 + Grade Pay Rs 7600


Selection Grade of Indian Forest Service : Rs 23050

Lt Col : Rs 17063

I Guess these were the tables that were required to be placed in the 6th CPC for a better idea of history !



JP said...


Anonymous said...

@ Navdeep,
Regarding your latest post.
1. I think we should not say Selection Grade when referring to IAS/IPS/IFS. Because, this would be used against us whilst comparing with Lt Cols (as civilians would argue, Lt col is no longer a selection grade).

2. We should infact say that 100 % IAS/IPS/IFS are given the so called selection grade in 13 yrears and now post AVSC, 100% service officers would attain Lt Col rank in 13 years. Thus it is imperitive that the parity be maintained for all at 13 th year and there can be no dilution of this demand.

3. The monetray edge that Lt Col maintained in previous pay commissions would translate into MSP.


Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...


You are right. SG is such a misnomer.

Clarified in the post


Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...


My job is to enlighten and beyond that I have no effective control.

Be as it may, relax and have faith !

Armchair Analysis said...

Dear Major,

Enlightening as your posts are, they also appear to flatten hopes of the armed forces (serving and veteran) readers.

Isn't there some way of seeking justice from the Courts?

For a few moments there was an odd word of praise for the armed forces amidst the ruins of south Mumbai, but India is slowly going back to what it does best - forget the armed forces until the next terrorist strike, the next earthquake, the next floods

Harry said...

@ Navdeep


If it is now proven that the very basis of formulating pay scales (as per SPC) for Armed Forces was WRONG (as incorrectly given on page 73 Table and brought out by U earlier), then should it take this long to undo the mistake! I am amazed!! Surely the redressal could have been given more expediously!

Anonymous said...

@harry. let me answer u before navdeep does.
it has been proved beyond doubt (kind courtsey navdeep) that tables in 6 cpc were wrong and manipulated for downgrading us. but believe me the army pay cell has not yet even told this aspect to the chiefs or the gom or the defence minister. why ? because it will prove that the pay cell was sleeping since march and one person alone, i.e, navdeep has done more research and produced more logic than all brains of army pay cell. i was associated with them in indirect way and i found them more than lacking in their dealings. these are not open people, they ar not experts, just GD soliders who wanted a delhi posting. ask the army hq as to how were these people competent to be posted to pay cells. even now they have been cutting and pasting from navdeep's blog and showing those ideas and information as their own work to senior officers. i've personally seen such documents and they are copies of navdeep blog. army pay cell is most archaic and old fashioned org who try to show secrecy in work to others. all ideas given by others are dumped.

Anonymous said...

Charity begins at home. We must sort out our own mehakma first. Urgently...

Anonymous said...

I can only say all serving officers should put up personal application ROG against 6 cpc.

Harry said...

Anonymous @ 6:28 pm (Above)

All very well, now pls lets have some bright ideas from you Sir to sort out our "mehkama"?

Anonymous @ 5:45 pm

Well cudn't agree more with you Sir! Our PC Cell gentlemen let us down badly. And most exasperating thing is they now don't even have a clue as to what is happening to our representaion. Surely we need better talent there, even if that means having Maj Gen Surjit Singh (Retd) co-opted as consultant, next time round. And our 7PC cell should be constituted well before the next pay commmission is announced (may be by 2014 or 2015!)

Anonymous said...

Thanks for all your valuable inputs. But it appears that the people who should be reading these are not doing so. Its over three months now and the matter which was to resolve till Oct End is nowhere in sight. People have infact lost all hopes. I think it is history now and big number of Army Officers have been ditched.

Anonymous said...

How is this for intra-service "warfare"?

Air Force (Accounts Branch of the IAF) included the MSP when calculating the DA wef 1-1-2006 and paid 40% of the arrears based on this. As per Special AI/NI/AFI "reckonable emoluments" it is there though the MSP is wef 1.9.2008.

CDA objected and has held up audit.

Army and Navy did not include all mentioned in reckonable emoluments when calculating the arrears and pay fixation (because the IDAS does it?)

Now even the post-2006 pensioners will have to wait for CGDA Ms Bulbul Ghosh to take a decision of the new FM-cum-PM to find time to resolve the issue.

Or, there might be another Nath diktat??

Cdr(Retd) Antoni said...

Dear Majaor,

Is it possible to go to court against the date of fixation as on issue of memo of 2 Sep, even after the clearances given by many high level committess.

Kindly give your comments.

Cdr(Retd) Antoni
DOR 17 Oct 06.

Cdr(Retd) Antoni said...

Dear Major,

Is it possible to go to court against the date of fixation as on issue of memo of 2 Sep, even after the clearances given by many high level committess.

Kindly give your comments.

Cdr(Retd) Antoni
DOR 17 Oct 06.

Anonymous said...

@ Navdeep,

I read the following item on MAJ.DHANAPALAN case that's in the Supreme Court.

" In consultation with Min of Law & Justice, a Transfer Petition (No 56/ 2007 under Article 139 A of the Constitution) was filed in the Apex Court by Ministry of Defence on behalf of Union of India for clubbing all Writ Petitions pending in different High Courts. The Hon’ble Supreme Court vide order dated 05 Feb 07 has granted interim stay for further proceedings.

Transfer Petition was heard in Hon’ble Supreme Court on 09 May 08 wherein the Hon'ble Supreme Court directed that these cases are to be clubbed together for further hearing by them. Subsequently, case was heard on 20 Oct 08, wherein the Govt Counsel sought a week time to seek GoI instructions to proceed further. Subsequently, the case was heard on 03 Nov 08, where the counsel for the respondent submitted that cases in which pleading are complete be disposed off. The Hon'ble Court gave two weeks time to file rejoinder, if any, by GOI. Thereafter, the case be listed for final disposal. "

Do You have any information whether a final order has been passed or not?Will any order affect all the personnel or only the people pleading in this case?

Anonymous said...

Could anybody tell me whether the LTC benefits have been awarded to the armed forces personnel. In short can a major/lt cdr/sq ldr fly on leave..............

pawan said...

Dear Maj Navdeep, any bright ideas on the following -- 13 years service for parity with civil services means that our Training period of 1 year 6 months will never be counted and thus will remain behind civil services, NOT TO FORGET that CPOs too will have that edge over defence.

Anonymous said...

annony 6.59 pm 06 dec

Pls fly at ur own risk at the lowest fare. i am also doing the same. However nothing has come in black and white.

u can take calculated risk as LTC entitlement has never been denied in the past.

Anonymous said...

Mr/(? rank) Pawan

First let 13 yrs move to pb4. The issue of including ur trg period can be taken up subsequently.

Don't jump. However i admire ur optimism. All the best.

Anonymous said...

Babu @ 9:33. India is alive because of our optimism. Not because of stupid Babus like you. I pity your pessimism

Harry said...

Anony @ December 6, 2008 9:33 PM

My Dear, its high time to set even this "one of the BIGGEST anomaly" right!! If it goes to so called anomilies committee then it becomes a NO-HOPER! Rememember out of 42 odd anomalies of 5 PC only 12 have been solved in last..hold ur breath.. more than a DECADE!! This is what our BABUDOM is capable of.

And why not, its high time this "inexplicable disadvantage" to Armed Forces vis-a-vis every other civilian service of Govt, is RECTIFIED! By the way how many amongst us knw this (and I don't intend to create fissures between entries, pls don't get me wrong, Just stating a FACT) only DEs(IMA trg 1.5yr), ex-NDAs(IMA trg 1 yr) and to lesser extent SS (OTA trg 9 Months) officers have this disadvantage!! As trg is counted as service for all Tech Entry, ACC,SL,SCO... officers!

This anamoly NEEDS to be set right NOW !!

Anonymous said...

@ Harry I beg to differ. Lets not complicate the issue in front of GOM

A well wisher. God bless us.

sg said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Dear Sg and Harry pls dont open any new fronts. Lets not talk of these inter departmental issues in the blogs. Prudence is the key word!

Wait for early decision of GOM. Hopefully before code of conduct announced by election commission.

Thanks,best wishes and regards

sg said...

@ annon

I fully agree and have removed the post

Anonymous said...

@ Sg

Thanks and best wishes.

Anonymous said...

@ all..

this funda of have faith and relax is now actually affecting the mental health of soldiers.

in past 6-7 months nothing good has happened to armed forces.

pm had announced 6th cpc on 15th aug..since then nearly 4 months have passed.

a simple and straight forward case taking over 4 months to resolve ..

but natural to think that govt is not keen to give justice to armed forces.

if everyone is in pb4 at 13yrs then it should be there for armed forces too..y bother about ranks...

just make it simple :

strating gp of 5400
2 yrs gp 6100
4 yrs gp 6600
9 yrs gp 7600
13 yrs gp 8700
14/15yrs gp 8900 as it is to dig(ips)
16 yrs gp 10000 as it to ias.

rest can be promotion based i thing this is a fair deal just give what u r giving to others..so simple..y gom is reqd for this?

Ajith said...

A refreshing change in the cover design.

Anonymous said...

please do not confuse our dedicated army pers and agitate them unnecessarily to enhance your market by combining rank pay as in earlier pay commns and comparing with higher levels in other organised govt cadres

with regards

Anonymous said...

My dear anonymous @ 8.47 PM from MES/Coast Guard/BRO

Ok let us not add rank pay into basic pay.

How about III CPC when there was no rank pay.

As navdeep has brought out :
IFS Selec Grade: 1650-1800
Lt Col : 1750-1950

How about that ?

And what about pension mr anony ?

Till now IFS Selec Grade officer was getting 7150 as basic pension and Lt Col 7550 and now after sixth pay commission a Lt Col gets about 17000 and IFS officer and all other NFSG officers jump to 23000. What kind of justice is this sir ? You keep eating money in your orgnztn. don't come here to use your brain on a no-brainer of rank pay.

Anonymous said...

The cabinet is slated to decide & finalise the UGC pay commission report on 11th.
But, there is still not a word reg. the fixing of defence pay anomalies created by SPC+COS by the GOM!!