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Wednesday, December 24, 2008

Determination of seniority between cadres on the basis of ‘Grade Pay’ recommended by the 6th CPC. Why was the system changed to ‘only within a cadre’?

As all of us know, the 6th CPC had made Grade Pay the bench mark of inter-se equivalence and seniority between different services and cadres.

But after the Cabinet decision, it was clearly stated in the resolution that Grade Pay shall only determine seniority within a cadre. The 6th CPC recommendation was hence modified by the Cabinet.

Ever wondered why this happened ??

This simply happened to maintain the existing parities and equations within various organisations and also to maintain the superiority of certain services over the others.

Let me elaborate. Let us take the example of the district administration. In a district, the District Magistrate (also known as Deputy Commissioner / Collector) is the head of the civil administration and the Superintendent of Police (also known as Senior Superintendent of Police in certain states) functions under the District Magistrate. The Police is just one of the various departments under the DM. The DM can be an officer of the Senior Time Scale (STS), Junior Administrative Grade (JAG) or in rare cases of the Selection Grade (SG), the same goes for the district Police Chief. Now it many-a-times happens that the district Police Chief is of a senior grade (and higher Grade Pay) than the DM and in such a case the DM would have been automatically declared lower in status in case of acceptance of GP equivalence between cadres. Hence purely to maintain such superiority, the system was changed by the Cabinet. Similarly at a more senior level, the Home Secretary, who is usually an officer of the Senior Administrative Grade (SAG) in a State may have to exercise supervisory functions over the DGP (Apex Grade or HAG +) and acceptance of the Pay Commission recommendation would have meant dilution of the State Home Secretaries over IPS officers actually their superiors. The same applies elsewhere too. College Lecturers would become senior to Directors of Education or Public Instruction (DPI) which the administrators would never want, Doctors would become senior to administrators of the Health department etc. To give you a live example, In Chandigarh, the Chief Engineer of the Chandigarh Housing Board is considered junior to an IAS officer of the JTS (GP Rs 5400) posted as the Joint CEO of the same board. This was the actual reason why the original recommendation was tweaked and tinkered into something else.

But the practical situation is otherwise. Notwithstanding the stipulation of Grade Pay determining seniority only within a cadre, it becomes the de facto determinant of status, seniority and standing in practice. In cases of deputation to specific posts, it is the GP of officers of different services which is usually taken into account. In case of entitlements, again GP matters irrespective of service. I think it is high time this seniority system is set aside altogether except for Constitutional posts. The way ahead may be to give a fillip to specialists and slowly phase out the generalists. And this applies not just to the IAS but elsewhere too.

25 comments:

Anonymous said...

sir it is simple to come out of this imbroglio of grade pay. just do away with it. now that our superior brains have realised that it cant be used to determine seniority within a cadre there is no functional use of grade pay.in any case intercadre seniority can only be loosely defined in terms of basic pay + grade pay. since MSP is part of pay for all purpose it should be included for determining inter cadre seniority and specially for perks like ltc etc basic pay + grade pay + msp should be used. dont grudge the extra perk the fauji youngster would get if msp is included (as i have suggested)afterall his is a difficult life and remember msp was for these hardships.(pragmatic)

Anonymous said...

i meant - seniority between different cadres - in line 4 of my post(pragmatic)

Anonymous said...

dear navdeep sir can you through some light on fixation of pay for those promoted between 1.1.06 and 14.08.08. what happens if i opt from date of promotion(getting more basic pay) on Dec 07 will i have to loose arrears till nov07 this is what i have been given to understand.i have seen fixation for one of my civilian friend (8000-13500 promoted to 10000-15200in jan 07)initially fixed on 1.1.06as per existing pay and reached 24880 APP in jan and than stepped up to 25200(1000x1.86+6600)being minimum of the fixation of the prerevised pay scale thus getting benefit of fixation and arrears both.

Anonymous said...

@navdeep sir...
ok..if GP is for intra service seniority then GOI should give me all perks and previlages as given to others AIS after a particular span of service..

Penmil said...

Dear Major Navdeep,

If Grade Pay be not the criterion for determimning seniority/parity outside one's own cadre, what is the hitch in granting higher grade pay to Lt.Col.Eqv.?Any grade pay would mean nothing outside one's cadre and hence will not affect those in other services.

Relative seniorities/parities then would be determined by the same procedures that existed during the last two decades,by GOI letters.

In that case, since the cadres of Army, Air Force and Navy are all different, Grade Pay will not decide even parity within the services !

All said and done, the relative parities within the services are governed by the articles in the respective Service Regulations(Army/Navy/Air Force Regs) and unless they are synchronously amended , government notifications may not be able to over rule them.

Raj said...

Comdt B P Singh again could not gather enough courage to put this comment on his BLOG
Till a few years back a battalion of CPMF was Commanded by Comdt with a star and Ashoka on his shoulder and the same battalion with no changes in strength is now commanded by an officer with one more star on his shoulder.Now, should we equate this new officer with two star and Ashoka with a 2I/C of CPMF who wears a star and a Ashoka emblem on his shoulder? Whereas on the other hand most of the army batallions are still commanded by substantive Lt Cols and AF units by Wing Commanders---'coz they don't pickup their next rank automatically like 95% of CPMF comdt who are promoted on completion of 15 years of service with a decent ACR grading after a so called DPC-----As on date 95% of 1993 batch CRPF cadre officers have been promoted to the rank of comdt whereas the 5% left out are all local promotees ( promoted from ranks)---- So, please get your facts right before commenting-----and by the way why are you afraid to put the facts posted by me on yur blog ----- Comdt B P singh face it!

Patriot said...

Dear Navdeep,
Great job you have done so far by making us all aware of the self serving nature of IAS. Majority of them are overnight 'Rags to Riches' type who spend many years in third class rented accomodation, in Kachha and Lungi, while Rote learning the exams. When they finally succeed in fooling the system of selection, they ask Ante Date seniority for those years spent in wilderness. They want that to be counted against Commissioned service of Military. What a poor joke it is 'for reasoning' to get extra increments!!!

A few days earlier, when I posted the PB4 news 'first' on your chat box, everyone was more keen to know how I got the news in a 'JIFFY'. The point I want to make is many nefarious designs are at work and if we get any leads, these must be shared at once so that these GOONs get the reaction before they actually do the damage. We need your services now even more because 'The Confuse All' game being played by dirty minds needs to be countered with all the might and knowledge.

Anonymous said...

I feel getting PB-4 is good enough.let us not start fight on each and every point.
How many of us deal with civilian in day to day life.

Anonymous said...

@annony...at 1.01pm

I request dont write such lumping comments on this blog..

else u will be raped apart by us...

Gyani said...

LTcols in PB-4 without grade pay.
Only few LT Gens to get DGP grade.
No change in other's grade pay.
What we all are happy about?

chopsy22 said...

What say do the Army Men have? They do not have Freedom of Speech. They can continue to blow off their steam like a raiway engine - but none shall hear. They can keep cribbing endlessly - in the rooms, in office, in the mess... but is any one hearing?By virtue of his training and josh he may inflict a thousand wounds on his enemy but has no guts to call spade a spade even to his immediate senior. One shutup call and the chapters is closed. Do you thing your chiefs are any different. You have to see how our Generals lick the IAS officers in the MoD. Remember, the Postings / Promotions beyond Col/Brig are controlled by civilians. Our poor Gens can do nothing! Remember, how Naval Chief was disgraced and thrown out? All Chiefs dared not to speak a word of dissent... infact they endorsed it!
You may continue to write in blogs... that is all. NO ONE IS HEARING & BECAUSE NO ONE IS BOTHERED.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Chopsy 22

Thanks for those kind and encouraging words.

:-)

Navdeep

Anonymous said...

Dear Friends,

The issue of MPF and CPO need to be understood clearly. We have only two PMF in The country, that is Assam Rifles and The Coast Guard. When we say Par Military Force what is claerly implied is that the force is rolled, designed and organised to carry out Military Functions and is under operational command of the Military. Therefore, it has elements of military command and control integral to it. Pak has many PMF organisation like the erstwhile NLI which has been converted into regulars now. Their rangers are also commanded and controlled by the Army. Hence when ever one talks of the Parity between Armed Forces and PMF like AR or Coast Guard it is tolerable.

CPO in our country are a different and vastly dissimilar organizations having purely police roles. They are armed, equipped and structured to carry out "Danda Mar" colonial or Guarding Job, barely capable of protection of the VPs and VAs, that too is doubtful. Their training, attitudes and mindsets are not engaged towards military task except for the BSF that too very limited. One can not expect CISF or CRPF or RPF, the loudest claimer of Military status amongst them, to be of any military value. Hence, calling them as CPMF is not only a joke but also reflective of the desire of their MHA and IPS bosses to gain Military status. All CPO cadre of officers used to be class B status till recently. The cadre is auxiliary cadre to be commanded at higher level by the IPS. This is an entirely IPS domain forces propped up to claim equivalence to Army.

It is very unfortunate that in their blind and unchecked desire to dominate affairs, the IAS and IPS have tried to bring the status of Army to be considered at Par with auxillary CPO. Earlier at all pay Commissions, Defence officers equivalence was considered with IPS but this pay commission deliberately pushed down Defence to the equivalence of the CPOs as Shushma Nath’s happened to be an IPS officer. Not only that, CPO officers were deliberately brought to demand equivalence and Parity with Armed Forces. If any thing CPO officers shouls have demanded Parity and opportunities equivalent to IPS. Can any one ask my CPO friends why they are asking equivallance with a different Cadre and organization. First get similar opportunities within your organization and equate yourselves with IPS. Equating with Army is nothing but IPS Conspiracy added and helped by MOD zealots and KM Chandrasekhar.

Friends like BP Sing and others talked of "Eqility of Job and Pay". Whereas equility of Job is just their dream and imaginary why do not they insist on equity of Pay perks and promotions with IPS. Insisted on equality of Pay with Navy AirForce and Army simply is stupidy and nothing but insired consiracy. They do not see their equations with "security Gurds" when it comes to equal Jobs but spit towards the sky which is domain of Armed Forces. This was deliberately done to push down the Equivallance status of Armed forces officers by the IAS and IPS, particularly the duo of Ms Naths, one IAS and one IPS and all other highest Babus.


That imples Armed Forces virtually have been pushed down. IPS controlling investigative agencies like CID, Crime, IB, RAW etc have been co-opted by the IAS as second fiddle. They control vote rigging, spying on opponents, booking political opponents on false pretexts and policing. Therefore they are useful to the Politicians and the IAS. That is why grudgingly the status of second fiddle to them.

However, psychologically and apparently, the IPS always vied and copied the Army in uniform, ranks and status. So the story of all successive Pay Commissions is of IAS and IPS joining hands in pushing the Armed Forces down and down. The story of DIG or IG or DG gaining tin pot general status is nothing but the consequences of the combined assault on Armed Forces buy greedy, mentally insecure and power hungry IAS and IPS. They just can not stand the darling of the masses and country – the Armed Forces.

So much so that they have managed to push Defence Forces to the status of CPO, their Auxiliary Cadre. In the form of NSG, the IPS even have made Army Officers as their auxiliary Cadre. That is what their overall aim is.

How can Army Chief stand all this. It is simply unacceptable and illogical. National interest is not the sole prerogative of COAS. IPS have not moved on any appointments keeping national interests subordinate to their personal interest. That is a disgrace for Army officers. It is believed he has written a letter to MoD but that is not enough. No new officer should be posted to NSG unless this damage is rectified. Jointness of Command and interests is at the level of Ministry (secretary security) and not at functional levels.

This needs immediate attention or the COAS will be replaced soon by an IPS. They are inching on to that. This is the mental make up and character of the so called highest examination qualified elites of India.

Save yourselves from these durbar cronies so save India. That is the highest military responsibility and national interest

Jai Hind

Sekhar said...

i think the basic assumtion in the blog needs a bit of review. the seniority difference which once in a while crops up in ias - ips in districts was always there and is not a new creation of the 6th pay commission. if its visible through grade pay now, it was visible in pay scale earlier.

if the grade pay of dgp is higher than the home secretary now, the difference was in pay scale then. so what are we talking about?

we must understand that the relation of DC-SP is purely administrative and nothing to do with their mutual seniority. why do we get bogged down with this seniority things always? the civilian structure is different from the military one and one must understand it and respect it. if an ips is senior to an ias, he is senior. this aspect doesnt change just because they are posted in a district as sp and collector. neither has any problem as they know its just administrative convenience.

the district civil surgeon would be way senior to the collector, but reports to him for admin convenience.

its not my take on the need to remove the grade pay system or to get rid of the generalists. i thought i'd just point out the flaw in the reasoning in the blog.

apologies if i committed any factual errors. and thanks for this opportunity to post.

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,

Your cause of concern for intelligent IC officers from NDA is genuine but equating all Lt Col with civilian directors is not appropriate & acceptable. See at 10+2 stage, very few patriotic aspirants go for NDA. They should be given equal or better status than directors but who joined fauj after failure in all other competitive exams due to they poor academic records can never be equated with those who have come through tough competitive exams. Govt have given you free ration(not given to civilian), Govt has given you MSP (not given to civilian), Govt has insured you for 30 lakhs( civilian officers for 1 lakh only), Govt has given you lot many things which civilians officers are deprived of.I have seen all the three services and had very good friends from all ranks. About 80% I don't think doing their dutues properly. Just busy in their share market, killing the time etc. Fauj is running with 20% genuine officers . I ays salute them every moment. They should be given higher status but not greedy fauji officers who have joined fauj for the sake of roti, kapada and makan. If you all are really joined due to patriotic ferver, please ask govt to withdraw your free ration, extra insurance,other facilities, MSP and then you ask higher ranks than IAS etc. All will be given. But Most of you have joined fauj for roti, kapada and makan, free ration etc and not for patriotic reasons.

Genuine officers and jawans are always respected and saluted.Always considered as real life time hero.

First correct your officers not to indulge in many corruption involving from ASC supply depot, Ordenance depot, Signals, EME, all Work Shops, Engineer Regiments, AD Regiments, Military forms, you can count a number of top level corruption involved by greedy defence officers and jawans.

Your Engineer Regiments officers going to GREFF, Border Roads, Assam Rifles are looting this country.They talk honesty but dishonest in nature.

Naval Engineer officers, Logistic Officers, Training establishments are all indulge in looting the tax paid money of country men.

Arms and ammunition purchases were always a source of corruption from defence officers.

Claiming false claims on posting transfer by all officers are corruption.Misuses in the name of seniors visit are all seen by me.

Huge LPs and fake job orders by COs & 2ICs are well known. Selling of diesel from vehicle etc are well known.Cutting of trees from defence land and selling them outside and sending to your house under construction is well known.

Govt gives you cheap rate house in very good cities (which civilians don't get) but you do business by selling it at higher price including black money. Is it your patriotism? The day most of you join you are busy in creating house and multiplying your money as a small builder not as a soldier.

What should I say about your top brass - they use MES as their servants. Always do theft of electricity and hardly pay 10% of tarrif. Use MES and your regiment fund to decorate their private houses.Is it patriotism?

GOC, FOC and AOC are sold for monetary helps from MES and your own regiments. Other junior officers are also follow their seniors.Is it patriotism?

Three cheers for your such patriotic works. Still I do believe there are 20% genuine patriotic fauji officers and jawans. I have full respect and every moment salute to them.

Jai hind to them.Got will be kind enough to shower his blessing to them.

I take this forum to wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Try to be patriotic than being a businessman or bastard politicians.Don't divide the society as bloody civilian and military. Your parents, your own relatives, friends can also be bloody civilian.

Think over it and be true patritic first.

I am always watching your acts for the last 20 years. Very good friends from all the three services. Some are patriotic and some are just joined fauj for mauj masti as they could not get service else where.

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,

Your cause of concern for intelligent IC officers from NDA is genuine but equating all Lt Col with civilian directors is not appropriate & acceptable. See at 10+2 stage, very few patriotic aspirants go for NDA. They should be given equal or better status than directors but who joined fauj after failure in all other competitive exams due to they poor academic records can never be equated with those who have come through tough competitive exams. Govt have given you free ration(not given to civilian), Govt has given you MSP (not given to civilian), Govt has insured you for 30 lakhs( civilian officers for 1 lakh only), Govt has given you lot many things which civilians officers are deprived of.I have seen all the three services and had very good friends from all ranks. About 80% I don't think doing their dutues properly. Just busy in their share market, killing the time etc. Fauj is running with 20% genuine officers . I ays salute them every moment. They should be given higher status but not greedy fauji officers who have joined fauj for the sake of roti, kapada and makan. If you all are really joined due to patriotic ferver, please ask govt to withdraw your free ration, extra insurance,other facilities, MSP and then you ask higher ranks than IAS etc. All will be given. But Most of you have joined fauj for roti, kapada and makan, free ration etc and not for patriotic reasons.

Genuine officers and jawans are always respected and saluted.Always considered as real life time hero.

First correct your officers not to indulge in many corruption involving from ASC supply depot, Ordenance depot, Signals, EME, all Work Shops, Engineer Regiments, AD Regiments, Military forms, you can count a number of top level corruption involved by greedy defence officers and jawans.

Your Engineer Regiments officers going to GREFF, Border Roads, Assam Rifles are looting this country.They talk honesty but dishonest in nature.

Naval Engineer officers, Logistic Officers, Training establishments are all indulge in looting the tax paid money of country men.

Arms and ammunition purchases were always a source of corruption from defence officers.

Claiming false claims on posting transfer by all officers are corruption.Misuses in the name of seniors visit are all seen by me.

Huge LPs and fake job orders by COs & 2ICs are well known. Selling of diesel from vehicle etc are well known.Cutting of trees from defence land and selling them outside and sending to your house under construction is well known.

Govt gives you cheap rate house in very good cities (which civilians don't get) but you do business by selling it at higher price including black money. Is it your patriotism? The day most of you join you are busy in creating house and multiplying your money as a small builder not as a soldier.

What should I say about your top brass - they use MES as their servants. Always do theft of electricity and hardly pay 10% of tarrif. Use MES and your regiment fund to decorate their private houses.Is it patriotism?

GOC, FOC and AOC are sold for monetary helps from MES and your own regiments. Other junior officers are also follow their seniors.Is it patriotism?

Three cheers for your such patriotic works. Still I do believe there are 20% genuine patriotic fauji officers and jawans. I have full respect and every moment salute to them.

Jai hind to them.Got will be kind enough to shower his blessing to them.

I take this forum to wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Try to be patriotic than being a businessman or bastard politicians.Don't divide the society as bloody civilian and military. Your parents, your own relatives, friends can also be bloody civilian.

Think over it and be true patritic first.

I am always watching your acts for the last 20 years. Very good friends from all the three services. Some are patriotic and some are just joined fauj for mauj masti as they could not get service else where.

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,

Your cause of concern for intelligent IC officers from NDA is genuine but equating all Lt Col with civilian directors is not appropriate & acceptable. See at 10+2 stage, very few patriotic aspirants go for NDA. They should be given equal or better status than directors but who joined fauj after failure in all other competitive exams due to they poor academic records can never be equated with those who have come through tough competitive exams. Govt have given you free ration(not given to civilian), Govt has given you MSP (not given to civilian), Govt has insured you for 30 lakhs( civilian officers for 1 lakh only), Govt has given you lot many things which civilians officers are deprived of.I have seen all the three services and had very good friends from all ranks. About 80% I don't think doing their dutues properly. Just busy in their share market, killing the time etc. Fauj is running with 20% genuine officers . I ays salute them every moment. They should be given higher status but not greedy fauji officers who have joined fauj for the sake of roti, kapada and makan. If you all are really joined due to patriotic ferver, please ask govt to withdraw your free ration, extra insurance,other facilities, MSP and then you ask higher ranks than IAS etc. All will be given. But Most of you have joined fauj for roti, kapada and makan, free ration etc and not for patriotic reasons.

Genuine officers and jawans are always respected and saluted.Always considered as real life time hero.

First correct your officers not to indulge in many corruption involving from ASC supply depot, Ordenance depot, Signals, EME, all Work Shops, Engineer Regiments, AD Regiments, Military forms, you can count a number of top level corruption involved by greedy defence officers and jawans.

Your Engineer Regiments officers going to GREFF, Border Roads, Assam Rifles are looting this country.They talk honesty but dishonest in nature.

Naval Engineer officers, Logistic Officers, Training establishments are all indulge in looting the tax paid money of country men.

Arms and ammunition purchases were always a source of corruption from defence officers.

Claiming false claims on posting transfer by all officers are corruption.Misuses in the name of seniors visit are all seen by me.

Huge LPs and fake job orders by COs & 2ICs are well known. Selling of diesel from vehicle etc are well known.Cutting of trees from defence land and selling them outside and sending to your house under construction is well known.

Govt gives you cheap rate house in very good cities (which civilians don't get) but you do business by selling it at higher price including black money. Is it your patriotism? The day most of you join you are busy in creating house and multiplying your money as a small builder not as a soldier.

What should I say about your top brass - they use MES as their servants. Always do theft of electricity and hardly pay 10% of tarrif. Use MES and your regiment fund to decorate their private houses.Is it patriotism?

GOC, FOC and AOC are sold for monetary helps from MES and your own regiments. Other junior officers are also follow their seniors.Is it patriotism?

Three cheers for your such patriotic works. Still I do believe there are 20% genuine patriotic fauji officers and jawans. I have full respect and every moment salute to them.

Jai hind to them.Got will be kind enough to shower his blessing to them.

I take this forum to wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Try to be patriotic than being a businessman or bastard politicians.Don't divide the society as bloody civilian and military. Your parents, your own relatives, friends can also be bloody civilian.

Think over it and be true patritic first.

I am always watching your acts for the last 20 years. Very good friends from all the three services. Some are patriotic and some are just joined fauj for mauj masti as they could not get service else where.

Anonymous said...

@ Annonymous 2.55 pm 29 Dec 08

My dear civilian friend from MES since u have been not able to loot/plunder the fund meant for the defence and its cantonment area development to the extent it is possible so u are maligning armed forces officers.

If armed forces personnel not been their guarding the interest of Services/nation, u would have made our area look as filthy as in civil already existing. As it is you are earning suffiiciient money over and above ur salary despite our best efforts.

How much u want to extract from this poor nation. U will have to answer HIM finally. Think and then write.

@ All

let me tell all of u that no one from armed forces is asking any thing more in this pay commission. They just want their pay parity and status to be atleast restored to the level of fifth pay commission. The personnel mostly civilians from MES etc who are not able to get their cut from contractors due to continuous monitoring by service officers are spreading these false rumours. We assure to everyone that inspite of all. we are not going to compromise our integrity, honesty and loyality towards this nation and her citizen.

Jaihind

Anonymous said...

Anony@2:55 PM
You look like friend of comdt B P SINGH please donot speak in his language as spoken in his blog

Anonymous said...

Dear RAJ,
Why to blame Comdt BP Singh,PMFs never stopped Army in promoting its officers to Col after 16 year in paid posts, that is your internal problem, cure it,BPSingh is fighting for Second-in-Command and not for his rank,give due respect to him-
Your Khaki brother

Anonymous said...

I was promoted to Col(TS)on 12 Jun 08. Which option is suitable to me. What about arrears? Will they pay the arrears wef 12/06/08 or will it remain as on 1/1/06?

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