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Wednesday, December 17, 2008

E.Q.U.A.L.I.T.Y

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If liberty and equality, as is thought by some, are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in the government to the utmost - Aristotle

I don’t think Aristotle’s words can ever turn true in our nation’s context though I sincerely feel that the Govt is going to shortly announce a package for the services.

Well, after the new scales were announced for university and college teachers, there has been a flood of queries about their modalities. In the past I’ve also received some queries on the nitty-gritty of pay progression into Pay Band-4 for services other than the military.

Keeping in view the deluge of such questions, I have attempted to make a basic comparative table providing rudimentary features of pay progression for the All India Services, the Group-A Civil Services, University & College teachers and of course the Defence Services.

You may click here to view the above mentioned table of comparison.

As Germans believe, the only real equality is in the cemetery.

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41 comments:

Anonymous said...

Dear navdeep, thank you very much coming out with comparison table. If even after this if the govt/ exp sec & party will have guts to oppose it?
what are your apprehensions? are we going get what we are demanding. Also, there are talks arround that the govt may give it across the board to all above 12000/-. what is your source says? when it will be announced?

Anonymous said...

It is foolish to expect PB 4 for Lt Col now. Govt has not responded for over two months. Non response means Denial. Why hurt oneself expecting it?

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,
1. Your post on equivalence has put all doubts to rest.
2. Only one question, has this been shown to GoM / SN etc?
3. Can the Govt still refuse PB 4 in 13 yrs to Lt Cols?

Regards
Maverick

Anonymous said...

Navdeep,
Great Job, that you are doing. But I would like to ask you and would definitely expect you to confirm / reply:-

1. Whether all these plain and transparent facts are reaching the individuals who merit. (GOM, Exp Sec etc). ?
2. Are our chiefs doing anything about this protracted injustice overlooking the increasing demoralization among the officers ?
3. India (Bharat) has been famous for ages for its transparent governance & justice (of course not after birth of babusim)and whole of the country loves the armed forces. Still no support for it other than emotional. Why.

PK

Anonymous said...

Thanks. This table should be made into posters and stuck on the walls all over India in streets and in schools and colleges. A copy should be sent to all MPs. This is the beginig of the END of the Army. I tried to copy it but could not. How can I copy it?? It should also be posted at the railway stations. And whatever may be the outcome, all army will owe a debt to Navdeep.

Anonymous said...

Pardon me !! I meant all army officers will owe a debt to Navdeep

jassi said...

Well the univ teachers went on a strike for 1-2 days but joined work again as their pay commission was auto approved.

We all know very well that we can not go on a strike, but what can be done???

This emotional sp from the public is OK but of no value.

May be we go "rang de basanti" way

KK said...

Dear Navdeep,
Please correct me if I am wrong. To the best of my knowledge the pecentage of Army officers making to the rank of Col from Lt col has been only a dismal 23-24 % and obviously only Cols are making it to PB4 as of now,then how have U taken the figure as "Less than 40%"? Should it not be "Less than 25%" instead?

Anonymous said...

I just fail to understand as to what is holding PB4 back? With all this logic and precedences having been shown across to the Govt, what is holding the Govt back from issuing the instructions? There ought to be more than what meets the eye over here. I think we need to put our heads together to understand this fact and tackle it accdly. Maj Navdeep may kindly inform us of the options available to highlight the issue more forcefully now that it seems to be loosing steam in the corridors of south block. Nobody is talking about it now, no MP, no press and no formal info from service HQs too. It is a pretty frustrating situation.

Anonymous said...

dear all
great work by major navdeep
what is his take on two group a services controlled by the army IDSE and BRES not reaching PB-4 in 13 years
do unto others what you want others to do to you

Ramani said...

i think what the pak army could not do has been done by the 6pc.
yes, i mean" the demoralisatiomn of the Army".
if still the govt does not wake up,
the country will be hurt badly and posterity will not forgive the present govt.
I have never regretted joining the Army but Now am havbing second thoughts.

Anonymous said...

I fell Indian Military inculdes not only Officers but Men also.

Anonymous said...

Sorry for spelling mistake.I feel Indian Military includes Men also

Anonymous said...

well, does any one has any doubt that the govt will NOT ANYTHING ABOUT it.
And it's good nothing has not been done till now. If govt does any thing then it deserves all the praise as Defence people are supposed 2 be trated that way. When the chiefs are not saying anything and are "YES SIR MAN" then can u expect any thing. JOIN DEFENCE SERVICE IF U HAVE IT IN U AND SEE HOW IN YOU IS COOLED DOWN TO SAY BALLLLLLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Anonymous said...

DO u know some sectors in MOD get 2 addiltionla increament over above the 6PC (although without DA onn that) but with efeect from 01 JAN 2006 , yes 2006 taht coems to around Rs 20,000 to Rs 80,000 as arrears. So u see the effect of MSP it is with effect from 01 sep 08 . so dear who has upper hand even in MOD ;eave alone wrt other services..... Civillains are having all teh laugh and saying you are SERVICES is to Serve not to ask any thing

Danny said...

Oh now Come On!!! Dont't start comparing yourself with Doctors, college lecturers, IAS, IPS! How can you do that.
They are post graduates and far better educated. Defence officers are basically only class XII pass. They do get a BA degree.. from JNU the worth of which is anyone's guess since it is an in house job.

Anonymous said...

Rot. My grandfather was DCOAS in his day, and he had an MSc in Organic Chemistry. Many army officers have MTechs from IIT, MSc's, MBBS and MCH and MD's, MCOM, MBA, and a host of other degrees.

If anything, it is the so called post graduate degrees of the IAS and IPS from Jhumritalaiyya PG college, where they did no studying except "preparing" for the civil services exam in Kacchas which must be called into question.

Anonymous said...

The question is not whether someone has a post graduate degree or not. Is that the basis on which all govt. job career progression is to be determined? In which case, many constables and Subordinate service officers in state police also have LLBs, PhDs, MsCs. Should they be given the Apex grade forthwith as well?

Idiocy has gone too far. The army, XII pass notwithstanding was the apex service until two pay commissions ago.

I am civilian, but to me it is clear that if the limit is breached, the force will be ruined, and become an indisciplined rabble, armed with very sophisticated weapons.

And those buffoons who think that the CPOs are created to contain the armed forces (a canard, incidentally, they were created to relieve the armed forces of these tasks), obviously do not realise that should the army ever face off with them, the CPOs will be wiped out.

The police and CPO cant even stand up to Veerappan, and naxals armed with 12bore guns, how will they stand up to artillery, armour, and a highly trained infantry? They will wet their pants and beg for mercy.

Better to give the armed forces their legitimate due, than to behave like typical cringing, whinging Indians, always trying to undercut the other. The entire civilian services of India are a pathetic and rather shameful lot of malcontents and losers.

Anonymous said...

And with regard to the above post, I want to clarify in entireity that I do not begrudge the CPOs anything. They do their jobs. Its when vested interests start using them as tools against the armed forces that people begin to get angry.

Raj said...

COMMANDANT B P SINGH COULD NOT GATHER ENOUGH COURAGE TO THIS POST ON HIS BLOG

There is no question of parity of 2I/C with a Lt Col ‘coz 2I/Cs are earstwhile senior most Asst Commandant posted to a CPMF batallion.The designation Asst Comdt were renamed as Deputy Comdt in early 1990s but the 2I/C of a CPMF batallion continued to were a Ashoka emblem on his shoulder like an Army Major.After the 5th Pay commission the 2I/C or the senior most Deputy Comdt of a CPMF batallion was given a star in addition to the Ashoka emblem which he was already wearing on his shoulders, but that does not bring them at par with the Lt Cols ‘coz the additional star was an internal requirement of CPMF.A 2I/C was equivalent to a Major and continues to remain so.Tomorrow if a CPMF DIG commands a batallion (They are already commanding CRPF Group Centres)and the 2I/C is given one more star on his shoulder, that doesn’t make him equivalent to a Army Colonel………….!So, face the truth!

B P SINGH said...

Dear Navdeep
LET'S EQUATE THE EQUALS

The table stated in your article on first glance gives the appearance that great injustice is happening to both Defence and CPO's. However, a close study in the case indicates that the injustice is not that severe.

A regular Army Officer with graduate qualification becomes Lt. Colonel in 13 years of service. The same officer also becomes full colonel on completion of 04 more year of service. Thus, it can be construed that on completion of 17 years a capable officer is drawing salary in PB-4.

Now let us study the case of the same graduate joining as Asst. Professor. This individual will do 2 year of Post Graduate study and 4 years study in completion of Phd and about 1 year for NET examination. The same individual will join as Asst Professor and in about 12 more years will get promoted to Associate Professor in the pay scale of PB-4. Thus we can see that a normal graduate will take about 19 years to get promoted and avail pay scale in PB-4.

A similar graduate when joins in CPO's take about 18-20 years for his promotion to the rank of Commandant in the pay scale of PB-4

I do agree that IAS,IPS and IFS do get the scale of PB-4 in about 13-15 years of service but well they are the elite class and any other Government service officer can only dream to get the same.

It is good to raise the aspirations but there is no benefit in constructing castles in the air.

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous at 3.30 pm.

Thank God our PBORs from all services who are not looked after by their officers has not came openly on sites like this.(ex. is from 5th CPC and so on. In 6th the basic of Sgt in IAF Technical Trade has been lowered from 5000 slab and kept in 4800 pay in PB-2 with NC(E) and Laskas. Gadha and Godha in one group).I feel they kept quiet because no one is there for them. When come to Qualifications may Airmen are more qulified then the Officers under whom they are working.

Anonymous said...

@bp singh ji..
u ve been snubed so many times but u ..WONT UNDERSTAND..

I DONT EVEN FEEL LIKE RESPONDING BEYOND THIS POINT TO U..NEED LESS TO SAY THAT U VE A PERSONAL PROBLEM WITH ARMED FORCES..

ANYWAYS..V WILL GET WHAT WE DESERVE AND IF V DONT THEN WE VE ALL THE RIGHTS TO DECIDE WHAT WE MUST..SO JUST CHILL IF U DONT HAVE ANYTHING POSITIVE TO CONTRIBUTE THEN KEEP UR MOUTH SHUT..SILENCE IS ALWAYS GOLDEN..
THOSE MILITANTS AT MUMAI.WHO MADE INDIA SHIVER WERE NOT EVEN 5TH CLASS PASS..BUT UR ELITE BABUS WERE UNABLE TO CONTROL THEM WITH THEIR DEGREES..EVEN TODAY THE BABUS R UNABLE TO STOP THE NEIGHBOUR...ISI CONTROLLED BY MILITARY IS AN ORGANISATION THAT THE WORLD IS SCARED OFF...MIND IT NO BABUS R THERE...THIS MUCH SHOULD PUT U AT REST

Anonymous said...

BP Singh is 100% right. That's the reason, why the govt is silent on PB4 issue.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@BP Singh.

Get your facts right.
Firstly, a Lt Col does NOT become a full Col in PB-4 in 4 years of service. The min service requirement for PB-4 is 20 Years in the Army. Moreover there are cadres in the services where it takes anything between 22 to 26 years to achieve the rk of Col or equivalent. Did you know that Fighter Pilots of the IAF become Gp Capts in 22 years ? Moreover less than 30% of Lt Cols are able to reach the rank of Col.

Secondly you have commented on teachers and the time taken to undergo a Phd. My dear Sir, according to the new pay system applicable even to College teachers, a Phd holder shall reach PB-4 in 12 years, an MPhil holder in 13 years and a non-Phd/non-Mphil holder in 14 years. Compare this with the forces where you become a Time Scale Col in 27.5 years incl training.

@Anony PBOR cribbing about 6th CPC.

There are isolated anomalies in the PBOR scales which have very much been taken up strongly by the top IAF brass with the govt. Otherwise generally the new scales have been acceptable. Why you don't hear much about the PBOR problems is that they are very less in number as compared to the Officer cadre where every single rank has suffered depression of pay and status. Learn to have faith in your officers.

Anonymous said...

BP Singhji, according to the warrant of precedence, and historical precedence, the armed forces are also elite services of the union, historically more so in terms of prestige than the IAS IPS and IFS.

If you are so upset about the CPOs not being amongst these, you shouldnt have joined a CPO, but joined the Fauz.

Please do not compare the armed forces to CPOs are not even granted organised group A status.

If you have joined a CPO be proud of your service, and dont try baraabari with a superior service.

Wg Cdr said...

Dear Mr BP'
You just dont seem to learn. Must you always open your mouth and shoot off some half-baked information without studying the subject? Even though Navdeep has been gracious enough to accommodate your putrid comments since he is a gentleman and a proponant of freedom of speech, you may like to introspect and refrain from stirring up a hornets nest time and again and then getting lambasted by the armed forces. Your inherrent dislike and hatred of the armed forces is common knowledge and much as you may claim to have qualified SSB, its quite evident that you are an also ran and obviously missed the bus and are now berating the armed forces.

@Navdeep

Just a small clarification; flying branch officers become gp capts in min 21 yrs plus and the ground duty offrs are considered for the first time after min 23 yrs service. The difference is because of the retirement age of Flg branch officers being 2 yrs earlier than the other branches till AVM ranks.

And yes thanks for an interesting and intellectually stimulating blog page. You have made all of us so much more aware.

Anonymous said...

@bp i used to select officers for coast guard till 4 years back, 90% who came for selection to DIPR were 6/7 times SSB not recommended candidates and better one out of the lot ultimately had to be selected to fill up the vacancies.you seem to be one amongst them so your grudge against Armed Forces is natural.May God bless you.

kgr said...

Dear,
BP Singh
You seems to be an idiot.
thanks.

samy said...

Armed Forces is only job where there is no reservation. If IAS/IPS are tso elite a group why are reservations there. Is sushma nath one of those reserved cat promotee. who like bp singh thinks like horse pulling the tonga.

BP KA B**P said...

OYE BP,KDP
TENNU CHAIN NAHIN AAYEE OYE.AITTHE BI AA GAYA HAIN.KAKKA TENNU AKAL TA HAI NAHIN TAN FER APNA BOOTHA BAND RAKKHEYA KAR,KDP.

SUKHI said...

DEAR ROTTEN HEAD BP,
WHAT THE F D'YA MEAN BY "---A CAPABLE OFFICER---"? UNLIKE CPOs, WHERE EVERY JOCKER KEEPS MOVING UP THE LADDER WHATEVER BE HIS DEGREE OF INCOPETENCE,IN ARMY MORE THAN 70% OF LT COLs ONOT MAKE IT TO THE NEXT RANK HOWEVER CAPABLE THEY MAY BE.LIFE IN ARMY IS NOT THAT KHUSHI AS ENJOYED BY U F*****S.

NONA said...

BP,
Please do not create muck on this site.Pl take ur "kagaj ki kashti" and go help ur dear friends from across the border as u did recently.I am very sure if u come in front of us there will be another SHOEGATE and u will not be as lucky as dumbo Bush as we rarely miss target. LAYOFF BEEEPEEE.

Anonymous said...

I think we are missing the wood for the tree and getting detracted from the main topic of Equality vis-a-vis various other services in the matter of career progression!
It seems nobody has any inkling of the present status of the long pending demands reg. the 'equality' and behaving like the proverbial Six blind men and the Elephant (GOM report).

Anonymous said...

@Navdeep
Sir, I think the strength of PBOR is more than Officers.I can't give the fig., but I am sure.Comes to faith, I have faith in officers but not the one's who are creeping in the sites.Due to AV Singh commision so many got Sunami promotions i do not have faith on them.

Anonymous said...

@navdeep,
I misunderstood "Why you don't hear much about the PBOR problems is that they are very less in number as compared to the Officer cadre where every single rank has suffered depression of pay and status." as the strength.

But my about my faith i still have no faith on these sunami promotees,they are not matured for that rank.

Anonymous said...

@annony at 4.01pm...

don't behave like a NUT..

if u r so qualified and capable then y dont u appear in SSB and qualify it and ...

then you can do some good work for PBOR...

FRIEND U R NOT A PBOR RATHER U R POSING AS ONE ..PERHAPS U R SICK..

ur laughable efforts wont harm the offr-pbor relations..

Friend remember Maj Sandeep sacrificed his life saving men under his command..thats is what indian armed forces r all about..

MAY GOD BLESS U ...Though i feel he should not..

Anonymous said...

Best reply to revered BP. SILENCE!!!!Dont call him name: just ignore him

Anonymous said...

@anonymous 4.59

Thank for you post. I was advised to keep faith on my officers.OK good, but this apply to all who are saying "Are our chiefs doing anything about this protracted injustice overlooking the increasing demoralization among the officers ?",

I have seen both good offrs and rotten also,who can't listen a little bit of opposition from PBOR.I am not telling about people like Maj Sandeep but i am telling others like you.

It it due to people like Maj Sandeep only i have not lost my faith in Offrs otherwise i would have used ....... for them.

Next come to spoiling the relations between Offrs & PBOR,after 5th CPC it is gone in to ditch.

Comes to helping PBOR, I will do what ever i can. Because i have enjoyed the life of PBOR.

L. Venkata Subramaniam said...

I thought it was bad for the professors in IIT. It is worse for those in the defence forces. I dont know whom to blame for this, it is a helpless feeling. It is so sad. You know something is very wrong but have no way of fixing it.

Anonymous said...

@annony....at 11.49..

nice to c u talking sense..

by the way..u can find good pbors like u and rotten ones too...

in ur previous post u were (sounding)branding everyone as bad..

that's unacceptable...

yes where ever u r pl do a good job for pbor..

and friend from ur expressed feelings i just want to say one thing:- u r from AIRFORCE/navy(i guess)..where i found a visible offr-pbor divide(spl airforce).