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Monday, December 22, 2008

Anomalies addressed (To an extent...?)

There may be some good news in the offing.

Lt Cols stand placed in Pay Band 4, grade pay modality unknown but there are hints that the grade pay has been granted at an amount between Rs. 7600 and Rs. 8700. A percentage of Lt Gens has been upgraded to HAG+ grade and PBOR have been granted enhanced pensionary weightage.

Finer modalities and official announcements not yet made so take it with a pinch of salt. More when authentic information comes my way. Also I would request readers that we should all hold our horses and our 'opinions' till things come out in black & white. There are bound to be slips but we'll take them all one by one. There are also indications that equivalence / seniority of the defence services vis-a-vis civil services may be dumped for good. Chill, relax, have faith, the Chapter is not yet closed my friends...

103 comments:

RK said...

This is what Star News said "70% pension for PBOR,Lt. Gen. to be equivalent to DGPs & Lt. Col. to get 10000 Rs more.No mention of PB4 or grade pay.

Deepak said...

NDTV India is flashing the news that Pay Commission Anamolies are Resolved. Fauj ki Naarazgi door. Aayog ki sifarisho me badlao. It seems we have given one more opportunity to the "babus" to pay their dirty game

Surinder said...

Hey guys
Except for the brainless drivel - 'Fauj ki naraazgi door' no details and no clarifications. 10000 more means what ?? Any one with any more details?

Anonymous said...

utter nonsense and disappointed
alas, navdeep you chose a wrong day to change your chatbox

cant post or see any thing

so is that all?

Anonymous said...

Pathetic .No other channel has even bothered to show it on their channel & even those who have haven't given any information .

Anonymous said...

This chatbox doesn't work beyond 60 posts per hour..It doesn't allow you to post after that.You need to change this.

Anonymous said...

10000 more means pb4 with 7600 gp..as done to MNS..and till 13 yrs v will remain at 6600/- gp...

this is injustice done....

INDIAN ARMY I M WITH U TILL 20 YRS OF MY SERVICE THAT TOO WITH TOTAL LACK OF INTEREST..

ALL THE BEST NATION

D Lt Col said...

Can a human mind ever be satisfied....atleast the ambiguity is finally over ...and am sure most of us feel the same...with gagged mouths...we had to depend upon the blogs for info...thank you Navdeep..you have done more service than you can imagine...no one in the higher echelons wanted the ladies to be carrying the placards. Am sure efficiency levels will increase amongst those affected...whether one agrees or not...roti..kapda aur makaan ka sawaal tha !!!Badri Vishaal ki Jai

Anonymous said...

the main issue is of pay parity which exsisted since beginning and not extra money. the PM has confused the issue and has done which he should not be doing. we are digging our own graves by downgrading their status. this act will de-morlise the forces. Overall a shameful act under the pressure of Babus. God bless this country & soldiers.

Anonymous said...

dear navdeep. were the chiefs aware of this fact? is it with their consent? i doubt.never the less hats of to CNS for his drive.

Anonymous said...

Don't get too emotional. lets face a fact that we were fighting the might of the pen. we are already getting 6000 as MSP. now with PB4 and MSP, the pay package is not so bad. however the Govt has rejected our concern of pay parity, which may be a dampener but i think, our pay will not be less than civilians. so enjoy whatever has been given, after all, you don't vote. COCKROACHES!!!!

Padma said...

CNS told several times that the issue is about equality amongst various services and not that of money. The final outcome doesn't seem to be in line with CNS remarks. I am not sure, whether the Chiefs have concurred with final proposal or not.

Anonymous said...

It is not demand of gread pay but greed pay.

Anonymous said...

It is not demand of grade pay but greed pay.

Anonymous said...

navdeep plz. upgread your chatbox. need to sort out people like anoni. at 9.54 & 9.56.

chopsy said...

No change in Grade Pay... Pay parity with civilians has not been agreed... means all civilian counterparts would continue to draw higher salary due to grade pay (which is the yardstick for equvalance). Nothing to jump about!!

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,
Thanks for the yeoman service you are rendering to the services. I believe and can say with conviction that the inputs provided by you thru this site must have helped in bargaining our case. Once again thanks to Navdeep.

A piece of advice to all giving comments/chatting on chat box. We should hold our horses till we get complete details before we give out comments based on presumption/imagination.

Regards
Lt Col(Retd) R S Dasila

Anonymous said...

Give me parity in place of MSP any day.I have been loyal to my country,do I deserve this

Anonymous said...

The Babus can defend the country.There is no way I am going to do anything remotely beyond the call of duty.
We can easily beat the Pakis any time,but there is no way we can beat the babus

Anonymous said...

Shame on the PM and Sonia Gandhi.Please tell all your relatives and friends to do all they possibly can to vote this govt out of power.This is the only language they understand

Anonymous said...

They could easily adjusted Rs 1000/-from the MSP and added to the grade pay.But their intention is to humilate and insult the Armed forces.
What kind of PM do we have.

Anonymous said...

what is source of all this info on ndtv. if its true we should be satisfied and not fight for some false sense of parity. it has been notified that grade pay would determine seniority only within a cadre.every service is unique and has to be given its due respect.what army should be looking forward to is cadre restructuring, giving more opportunity to pbor for commission, more number of SS officers. these efforts more than anything will decrease stagnation at higher ranks. in all this fight for pb4 we seem to have lost sight of the very imp recommendation of reabsorbtion of SS officers and PBORS in CPMF'S. this blog needs to continue post pb4 resolution and attention of our govt and our own bosses will have to be drawn to it. - (pragmatic)

warrior said...

this incomplete hike should not be accepted by the services this would not resolve the problem.theyshould ask for status parity from Capt to Lt Gen its only this restoration of status which can motivate the demoralised armed forces officers.

IndianACE said...

@All,

Just saw a brief news/ discussion on NDTV .

IMHO, any decision by which an officer, presently holding the rank of Lt Col/ equivalant, on a given day, gets to be placed below any director/ equivalant who is promoted to his new rank later than the Lt Col, is outright mischivious and deceitful.

I'm willing to forego Rs 2000/- from the MSP to get the Rs 1100/- hike in the Grade pay- If this economic language is easier to understand by this government.

It is well understood that the govt has all the right to pay any of its employees, as it deems fit- however, as a matter of prudence this power should be exercised, starting with the employees who join now.

And any one still in the belief that the mischief is the handiwork of only the bureaucrats, needs to be sent afresh for SSB.

@Navdeep,
Thanks again for the yeoman service. I hope the faujis can take it forward from here, using the democratic weaponry of VOTE

Anonymous said...

@Pragamatic ..

You are a civils srivice b*a*st*ard and do not understand things...you are trying to apply Police and IAS model on Army my dear charlie....

We need young and dynamic officers as Lt and Capt and not old hagards of Regemental commission (PBOR granted commission officers) as our LTs and Capts. Fighting a war and being in front to lead soldiers is different from Policing and doing thanededari..or being a Tajsildaaar... you must understand it.... leading troop in war needs corage .josh and blind insipiration and not being a promotee of fifty yers of age... it is for nothing that that terrorists are less than 28 years of age and not beyond 28 years..

Since it is not your business you just do not understand things... kindly shub your suggestions up your Arse....


Army Officers is Not IAS and a failed IPS... It is not a superimposed cadre and do not suggest your F@ck@in stupid model for the Army....

This must be straight away rejected by all the three chiefs....

Anonymous said...

We want Izzat and IQBAAL... LET the inhanced money be given to the bloody greedy IAS and IPS...
It is the question of status....

I request all three Chiefs to rejects or not accept the decision... let all three be court martiallled to set aside the historical wrong....


Not acceptable...Chiefs will be guilty of of a great injustice to the Armed Forces....


We will as an organisation sort out any one who volunteers to be the Chief on this issue...

Anonymous said...

Not acceptable..Not acceptable and Not acceptable..


Dear chiefs ....Not Acceptable......

You may go to war w/o LT Cols and equivlants....

A mod director has No business to be equivalant to your 26 yers old Colonel......Shame on you all...

Good buy....

jaya said...

while we rejoice let us spare a moment to remember this unsung hero in our prayers:-
Here is a true account from an officer commanding a regiment

From IS Gill CO 22 Field Regt-------- --------- -

1. I had an officer in my unit who was very good, tough and commando type. Capt AK Singh (2003 seniority). He wanted to go to NSG. Becoz of his strong desire, we relented and the offr was deputed to 51 SAG in NSG early this yr.

2. On 27 Nov, he was one of those sent to Mumbai for dealing with the terrorists. Launched straight into ops in the Oberoi Hotel, he est contact with one of the terrorists on the 18th floor at 1800 hr that day. Since the terrorist was holed up inside a room, they blasted the door open. However before they could throw a grenade inside, the terrorist threw a grenade outside. The grenade burst right in front of the offr and with splinter injuries all over, he fell unconscious. He was the only offr to be injured in the complete op (other than Unnikrishnan - who is no more).

3. He was operated upon in a hospital in Mumbai and all splinters removed from his body -- less one. That splinter had pierced the left eye and destroyed it completely. It cannot even be replaced with a donor eye. No news, no media coverage, not even a mention in the press statements.

4. The offr is now alone, in 'Bombay Hospital' with the left eye still bleeding and the NSG people have all gone back to Delhi. He does not know how he will be treated further or what will happen to him. He is crying "Save my eye! I want to continue to serve in army". There is nobody from the NSG to console him. His parents don't know who to turn to for help. The CO of the Bn, an army offr, mind you, has not met him or even spoken to him till 01 Dec. When the matter was brought to the notice of the Adjutant of the Bn, he called up the offr and started off not by asking him how he is but "do not give any interview or statement to anyone".

5. Ridiculous! If this can happen to an offr, what must be happening to men. If this can happen to those who were hailed by the nation as heroes, what must be happening to others. Whatever the intention may be, downplay casualty or whatever, is this the way NSG treats its people. Like Cannon fodder.

6. Fortunately, my regt is loc close to Mumbai and I have mobilised my regt to help him. After all, He is MY OFFR of the Great Indian Army. The Unfortunate part is I can't save his eye and I can't get him any official recognition. Your advice/ guidance is this respect is solicited, w/o harming the offr's relation with his bosses in NSG.

7. Also tell your offrs. Be a leader, lead from the front, have initiative, be courageous and bold but don't get injured. DIE INSTEAD!! Becoz if you survive, you will die a thousand death every day.

From

IS Gill

Commanding 22 Fd Regt

Anonymous said...

Remember, Om Shanti Om, Yadi story ka ending happy nahi hai to film abhi baki hai, film khatam nahi huai hai dost

Anonymous said...

@anon 11:39 i think you have missed the point i was trying to make. i agree that we need young dynamic below 30 officers hence larger base of SSC required who later can be shifted to CPMF'S. a good many regt. comm. officers have done very well. shed your false sense of ego what i have suggested is good for the cadre in the long run.this pb-4 to lt col is a short term issue. also friend please remember you are in a public blog you may disagree with my veiwpoint but you can still fight your case sans the profanities.{pragmatic}

Anonymous said...

if the equivalence in grade pay has not been given then the chiefs should reject it outright. Let this govt or any other govt coming to power subsequently not carry this impression that they can haggel with the army/navy/airforce. its a precedence which needs to be set up for our political leadership (rather lack of it)and babus. Stick to our grounds and lets be prepared for a fight, whether its with this govt or one which comes to power after may. as regard what has been given by pm, even if its rejected by the chiefs it will in any case get notified.

Anonymous said...

Dear Major Navdeep,

When clicking on a link the full page refreshes including the chat box. Perhaps yo can re-work it so that only the main posts refresh ?

Regards

Padma said...

Money or no Money. It is the 'Equivalence - Parity' that we are asking for. If this is not provided, nothing is provided. We should not accept this at all. This time the govt. cannot arm twist our service chiefs to implement this skewed proposition. Either we get Parity or we reject the offer and define our own status as we deem fit. The services have played enough to the tunes of the so called politicians and bureaucrats.

Anonymous said...

Fight your case sans the profinities. i like the expression. There is nothing wrong in having oldies lead troops. They will think of all ops and action alongwith welfare of their and their jawan's families before resorting to adventurisms. This may lead to delay in getting results; but isn't that mature?

Mind you Sir, our country once was lead by a prime minister who was 80plus.

So dont be perturbed by ops outcomes, let us leave it to god.

People in higher echelons are paid to make policies and we to accept or say lump.

Col Venkatesh VT(Retd) said...

Is this is a selective leak by the GOI to gauge the reactions ?

Mach22 said...

I think we should wait for the official notificatio because reacting on just these media speculations will be just heartburning and total time waste. I wish all of us all the best, may things become alright,

Jai Hind

Anonymous said...

i thnk itz th rt stp in th rt dircn. aftr all v r gttng more bucks 4 th same job profile, no?

so b happi.

cheers.

:-)

Anonymous said...

The only demand that has been met is that of 70% pension for PBOR.

There is just a mention of a higher pay scale for Lt. Col. but not PB4.

Not all Lt. Gen. to be given the HAG+ means not all of them will be equivalent to DGPs.

No uniform grade pay as being given to other civil services and CPMFs.Why??Is Defence a lesser sevice than any of them.

This is my inference for the Times Of India newspaper report.

Anonymous said...

don't crib no one told you to join the army, you all joined it as a proffession,for people who joined it to serve the country don't read this iam sorry for what the govt is doing,but dont feel sorry for your self, study hard do an MBA,LAW E.T.C. TAKE pension or no pension and leave, get a good job outside with stability e.tc look after your family.Don't run around the country every two years like ''KHANNA BADOSH''. The sooner we understand this is better. BY the way on who's strength does pranab murkjee shows his jingoistic behavior to pakis.All this will effect us after 10 to 15 years a 1962 is awaiting to happen by that time all this people doing this to the army may or may not be in power. all things have to come to an end even this country, check the history. DOn't crib and spoil your mood and others. I have got two to three years left, hope i don't get promoted, doing MBA and wating to leave after twenty

JAYANT said...

Early Morning visit to the BLOG was a pleasant reading.But the apathy is Many Banks are not aware about the pension to be released to an individual retired officer.They are harping on Annex 11 and have no idea of releasing the MSP.Please enlighten us with the factual authorisation.
GOD BLESS

docjoe said...

Hi there,
Chopsy@22 Dec 10:00 Pm, is that Amit Chopra/D-79/23 RAJPUT? If so, great, this is M V Joshi. Irvinder, good show, old chap. Both of you better do some post grad course and get out. This is not the ship where the capt goes down with it...

Col VT Venkatesh(retd) said...

@Jayant
The Annexure 2 of 11 Nov 2008 already includes MSP (though annx 2 benefits only Cols & above ).I have got the pension arrears based on annx 2 from Canara bank correctly

RK said...

I read someone commenting that we should not crib as after adding the MSP we are still getting more than other services.There is absolutely no way I am willing to buy that argument.Parity with the other services is a must.This MSP has been given to the Defence Forces for the hardship that this service brings with it.So the MSP has to be over and above the pay and should in no way be used to bring down the grade pay in comparison to other services.

Another important thing that I read in the newspaper today is that senior IPS officers are lobbying very hard to confer the ASHOKA CHAKRA for the 12 policemen who were killed on 26/11.Also the GRP & RPF pesonnel also are in the reckoning.
Also an ACP of ATS and a DCP have got recommedation for President's medal for Gallantry for just firing a few shots on the terrorists.Amazing?????
With all due respect to all those who got killed just by chance I don't see any act of Gallantry so to say except that of NSG.
These Gallantry Awards should only be conferred for exceptional act of bravery and not just because you fired a few shots which anyway is a part of your duty or you just happened to get caught in a burst of fire without doing anything which deserves to be called gallant.
The only sane person in all these Police Personnel is an ACP who fired at the terrorists and has refused a recommedation for an Award righfully saying that it was a part of his duty.God bless him & may we have more of this Tribe.

Anonymous said...

This country doesnt deserve the army it has. Disciplined, loyal, brave, apolitical.

Soon it will get the army it deserves. Indisciplined, inefficient, hungry for power, and ready to revolt.

The only thing that can save us is the Chiefs of Staff resigning, or making a further shindy.

Anonymous said...

Its time for the armed forces to go to court. Is this not possible? I know we have a variety of legal minds on this board.

The argument that is being made by the bureaucrats is that the MSP is compensating the military for decreased grade pay.

This is patently false. It was to compensate the military for hardship. What is the idea of turning the military into a subordinate cadre?

Anonymous said...

Revelation of Swiss bank accounts

This is so shocking.......If black money deposits was an Olympics event.... India would have won a gold medal hands down. The second best Russia has 4 times lesser deposit. U.S. Is not even there in the counting in top five! India has more money in Swiss banks than all the other countries combined!

Recently, due to international pressure, the Swiss government agreed to disclose the names of the account holders only if the respective governments formally asked for it. Indian government is not asking for the details.......no marks for guessing why?

We need to start a movement to pressurise the government to do so! This is perhaps the only way, and a golden opportunity, to expose the high and mighty and weed out corruption!

Please read on......and forward to all the honest Indians to.....like somebody is forwarding to you........and build a ground-swell of support for action!

Is India poor, who says? Ask the Swiss banks. With personal account deposit bank of $1,500 billion in foreign reserve which have been misappropriated, an amount 13 times larger than the country's foreign debt, one needs to rethink if India is a poor country?

DISHONEST INDUSTRIALISTS, scandalous politicians and corrupt IAS, IRS, IPS officers have deposited in foreign banks in their illegal personal accounts a sum of about $1500 billion, which have been misappropriated by them. This amount is about 13 times larger than the country's foreign debt. With this amount 45 crore poor people can get Rs 1,00,000 each. This huge amount has been appropriated from the people of India by exploiting and betraying them. Once this huge amount of black money and property comes back to India , the entire foreign debt can be repaid in 24 hours. After paying the entire foreign debt, we will have surplus amount, almost 12 times larger than the foreign debt. If this surplus amount is invested in earning interest, the amount of interest will be more than the annual budget of the Central government. So even if all the taxes are abolished, then also the Central government will be able to maintain the country very comfortably.

Some 80,000 people travel to Switzerland every year, of whom 25,000 travel very frequently. 'Obviously, these people won't be tourists. They must be travelling there for some other reason,' believes an official involved in tracking illegal money. And, clearly, he isn't referring to the commerce ministry bureaucrats who've been flitting in and out of Geneva ever since the World Trade Organisation (WTO) negotiations went into a tailspin!

Just read the following details and note how these dishonest industrialists, scandalous politicians, corrupt officers, cricketers, film actors, illegal sex trade and protected wildlife operators, to name just a few, sucked this country's wealth and prosperity. This may be the picture of deposits in Swiss banks only. What about other international banks?

Black money in Swiss banks -- Swiss Banking Association report, 2006 details bank deposits in the territory of Switzerland by nationals of following countries:

TOP FIVE




INDIA

$1,456 BILLION
RUSSIA

$470 BILLION
U.K.

$390 BILLION
UKRAINE

$100 BILLION
CHINA

$96 BILLION



Now do the math's - India with $1,456 billion or $1.4 trillion has more money in Swiss banks than rest of the world combined. Public loot since 1947:

Can we bring back our money? It is one of the biggest loots witnessed by mankind -- the loot of the Aam Aadmi (common man) since 1947, by his brethren occupying public office. It has been orchestrated by politicians, bureaucrats and some businessmen.

The list is almost all-encompassing. No wonder, everyone in India loots with impunity and without any fear. What is even more depressing in that this ill-gotten wealth of ours has been stashed away abroad into secret bank accounts located in some of the world's best known tax havens. And to that extent the Indian economy has been stripped of its wealth. Ordinary Indians may not be exactly aware of how such secret accounts operate and what are the rules and regulations that go on to govern such tax havens. However, one may well be aware of 'Swiss bank accounts,' the shorthand for murky dealings, secrecy and of course pilferage from developing countries into rich developed ones.

In fact, some finance experts and economists believe tax havens to be a conspiracy of the western world against the poor countries. By allowing the proliferation of tax havens in the twentieth century, the western world explicitly encourages the movement of scarce capital from the developing countries to the rich. In March 2005, the Tax Justice Network (TJN) published a research finding demonstrating that $11.5 trillion of personal wealth was held offshore by rich individuals across the globe.

The findings estimated that a large proportion of this wealth was managed from some 70 tax havens. Further, augmenting these studies of TJN, Raymond Baker -- in his widely celebrated book titled 'Capitalism's Achilles Heel: Dirty Money and How to Renew the Free Market System' -- estimates that at least $5 trillion have been shifted out of poorer countries to the West since the mid-1970.

It is further estimated by experts that one per cent of the world's population holds more than 57 per cent of total global wealth, routing it invariably through these tax havens. How much of this is from India is anybody's guess.

What is to be noted here is that most of the wealth of Indians parked in these tax havens is illegitimate money acquired through corrupt means. Naturally, the secrecy associated with the bank accounts in such places is central to the issue, not their low tax rates as the term 'tax havens' suggests. Remember Bofors and how India could not trace the ultimate beneficiary of those transactions because of the secrecy associated with these bank accounts?

IS THERE ANYONE WHO CAN SAVE INDIA?

PASS IT ON IF YOU WISH INDIA GOOD...............

Anonymous said...

1. After screwing up the affairs of our nation in every which way they could ever since the independence, the farcical, incorrigibly corrupt and self serving Babu, s are hell bent on degrading and consequentially ruining the armed forces. What needs to be understood is that, there has been a pattern in their actions. The need of the hour is application of mind to come to a logical and just end to bureaucratic interference in such like matters of services forever. The dilution of status should not be accepted at all. Accepting the pay hike without parity will amount to giving a handle to scheming Babu, s to keep creating anomalies in future as well, just what they have been doing over successive pay commissions.
2. We also need to educate our countrymen about unbridled powers enjoyed by Babu, s with total lack of accountability to anyone in whatever they do. The politicians come for five years and may or may not have a second chance but the unscrupulous league of Babu, s continues to lord over the nation for ever. There is an urgent need to bring an end to it all. Administrative reforms as suggested by Moily committee should be improved upon by including Summary dismissal of non performers and corrupt in the bureaucratic set up. India needs a change in the way these nincompoops who are wielding so much power are selected just by qualifying an exam due to their story writing skills developed after many years of coaching classes and numerous failed attempts. The melancholy is that all their time wasted in attending coaching classes is compensated in the form of additional increments; this must end and end earliest. There was no bar on them joining the service early. It is a matter of choice exercised by them for them selves and not thrust on them by the nation! Why should they be compensated for what they chose on their own? Think about it.
Thanks and Jai Hind!

Anonymous said...

The caption should be "Lt Cols are getting Rs 10,000 on par with their Civilian counterparts in V Pay Com".This is the true picture.

Sadly the govt has betrayed its soldiers in degrading the Lt Cols by not giving them the Grade pay of Rs 8700/-
Every one is willing to forego his MSP 0f Rs 6000/- to get the parity which existed in the V Pay Com.

The issue was of parity & status not of money,that has not been addreseed even by the so called top leaders of the country.What a shame.They were asking only for the existing parity to be maintained not increase it.They do not have the fundamental right to free speech,WILL ANY ONE SPEAK FOR THEM.

They have always stood by the country,has the country stood by them-NO.

Democracy doesnot hinge on the fact that Lt Cols have to be down graded or of lower status.What a web the bureacrats have spun.Given a chance the would make the Seniormost armed forces officer lower in status to the Juniormost babu,in the name of democracy.

This is nothing but DICTATORSHIP BY THE BABUDOM.The so called govt is afraid of them and they can get away with anything.

Anonymous said...

The bureaucracys action smack of conception in GHQ at Rawalpindi.

Something very dirty is going on. The civil services, particularly the IAS seems to have been bought by Pakistan.

The repercussions of this pay commission on the armed forces are going to be immense. Who benefits?

Our enemies.

What a pity that our nation is being sold down the river by the Mir Jaffars of today!

Anonymous said...

Everyone seems to be pressurising this govt. The IAS, the IPS, the Teachers, the Doctors, the CPMFs.

It is time the armed forces applied some pressure. NOW!

Anonymous said...

Major Navdeep
yOUR CHANGE TO NEW FORMAT BROUGHT PARTIAL CHEERS AND A LITTLE CLARITY ATLEAST
keep changing format
Cheers

Anonymous said...

There is a definite conspiracy here, and I am not half sure that has originated with our enemies across the border.

Something is very, very rotten.

Anonymous said...

Something is very wrong with this picture. The armed forces are going to be extremely demoralised and will haemorrage personnel.

Could this pay commission saazish have originated with the ISI, or better yet, with the Panda to the north?

Weakening the armed forces is something that benefits our enemies.

And we all know how easily bought our bureaucracy and political classes are.

Something is very rotten. The military should not allow itself to be beaten like this. It should take resolute action to ensure that this country isnt sold down the river.

The past five years have been very bad for this nation. This UPA govt has presided over:

1. Increased communalisation. Hindu-Muslim-Christian ties are at their Nadir, under this so called secular government. The situation has reached near two-nation theory proportions.

2. Casteism is at its height.

3. The armed forces morale is at its nadir. Noone wants to join, those who are in, want to leave.

4. Terror has free reign.

5. The intelligence agencies seem to be headed by spectacular duds. Indeed, they seem to be in disarray, with infighting amongst various cadres.

6. Various measures seem to be being taken to bring the economy to its knees.

7. Regionalism is at its zenith. Refer Maharashtra, Assam, Tamil Nadu, Jammu and Kashmir.

In other words, the country is being torn apart, from within. Isnt that the ultimate goal of the ISI across the border?

Something is very rotten. And the armed forces were the last bastion against the nefarious designs of whomsoever has planned this for India. Confusion and infighting reign amid our population. The chain of command, with the Armed Forces coordinating a response to enemy activity has been tampered with. Infighting reigns in our defence and security establishment.

I am a civilian. But I hope someone will act, with immediate resolve. I think a few hangings for treason are in order. At once.

Anonymous said...

No Navdeep,This need not be taken with a pinch of salt but actually a dallop of salt.

Anonymous said...

Everybody relax. I saw an India Today report yesterday which specified that "The pay grade issue is also believd to be covered". This report on "Pay grade issue rejected" could jsut be another bureaucratic plant. We all know what havoc they have played through the media. The file will go to the PM for approval. he will take the final decision.

Have faith. Its not over. Until it is over.

Anonymous said...

Any NEWS about implementation of DACP for Defence Doctors?It is already implemented for all Central Govt Doctors.

Anonymous said...

Why blame the present Govt? Is the opposition any different? Poor Patil! He should have sacked his secretaries before resigning. As for BJP, have we forgotten the way Vajpayee gave Pakis the chance to lay mines and booby traps in their withdrawal and caused avoidable casualties. He was probably given the bait of a Nobel prize by the U.S. BJP has only made very small noises till now.Reason: Mr Advani is a thorough police lover that he in his time wanted to equip BSF with all the weapons of the Army without realising the role of each.Don't worry friends there will be no war. ISI knows the truth of our current capabilities and they will call India' bluff as mere election related sabre rattling.

Anonymous said...

@all....

i m shocked to read some comments who r appreciating what ever the PM has done..

all these people ..i hope have not surrendered their izzat to the Babus..

come on GOI..reduce my MSP..but give me my Grade Pay...which i very much deserve..

Jiggs said...

PARITY IS IMPORTANT!! Recently, the youngster DC in Manipur called off a security meeting in his office since the monthly meeting was attended only by the Commanding Officers and the Brigade Commander was missing. The SP of the same district with 7 yrs service rubbed down two senior Majors for reaching his office without prior appointment and refusing to talk to him. Unfortunately, our own bosses had circulated a letter of precedence which placed ridiculously jr state govt officers (including tribal leaders) much above the commanding officer of a unit. Even the patwari started issuing directions to army.

Soldies lives and dies for Izzat. Parity implies Izzat. Is'nt a person valuing money more than Izzat called a Prostitute?

LS said...

This is what happens when there is no parity.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9044095/Comparative-Table

Anonymous said...

Is any one up there bothered??

Mitoos said...

A nation will get an Army it deserves. Sad but inevitable. In the NDTV talk show with Barkha Dutt, an IAS officer claimed that the credit of such a 'disciplined' army(unlike the Pak army which does coop to every Govt) went to civil services - which they have achieved by systematically 'organising' the nations army (by clipping the wings so they never even think of flying!!). A cornered dog has few options.

Anonymous said...

Doctors of the Army are also being taken for a ride. Just visited the CDA(O) and saw that for pay fixation on 1.1.2006, 1.86 times of Basic Pay and Rank Pay ONLY (plus 25% of NPA) in the old scale is being considered So you straightaway lose the 86% DA on the NPA you were getting on that day. Forget about the DACP, guys, this pay commn will rob you of your entitlement also.

Anonymous said...

all you guys deserve a kick because majority of you just lick --7 hope for the promotion , I want to see how many of you fight for your men .That is why the IAS is kicking your arses & getting away , if even one of you had the guts they would have been shit scared of you like they are from 10 terrorist but its sure some people will become terrorist if they treat the army in this way .The army - the swervices have to be treated good ,thats the last line thats about all & if you are not then you have to be angry & no other way ?????? !!

Surinder said...

Ppl, as someone just said, all our talk is premature since nothing has yet come out in black & white. Wait and watch and don't react with fulminations, just yet. Our spontaneous outpourings are being taken selectively and being presented to the political overlords as evidence of the 'rebellious' armed forces. Believe you me when I say that selective excerpts of these blogs are being put up. Calm down and center your thinking. Do not react to this biased mischief-mongering.
If the truth be told, this Nehruvian bias against the Armed Forces has just become institutionalised. I remember reading a book by soem guy whose name I forget who said that had the 1948 invasion not taken place, Mr Nehru would have disbanded the Armed Forces. The same 'head-up-my-@$$' philosophy was at work during 1962 - the results are very stark. But, then, no scion of the Nehru-gandhi family was among the poor, deluded jokers who died up there fighting for a 'Motherland' which had no maternal instincts towards them.
Enough of blowing off steam; let us first find out what is the truth and THEN take up the issue.
Also, I would request all you fine people that a little moderation in the language would be appreciated since the use of swear words tends to be indicative of a limited vocabulary.
We can and we will overcome adversaries - external as well as internal - provided we stand united.
Jai Hind and Tagre Raho.

Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeep
I dont know How to Thank you for the Yeoman's service rendered by you to all the service personnel both serving and retired, I dont have Words, Anytime Anything however small I can do for you, I would be more than happy
RM (aka) Wg Cdr Madhusudan
mavv@rediffmail.com

Anonymous said...

READY TO GIVE UP MSP, BUT GP HAS TO BE INCREASED.

Anonymous said...

What is this rubbish?


Karkare recommended for Ashok Chakra
NDTV Correspondent
Tuesday, December 23, 2008 12:49 PM (Mumbai)

The Maharashtra government has recommended 17 policemen for the country's highest gallantry award -- the Ashok Chakra.

The 17 include Hemant Karkare, the ATS chief who was investigating the Malegaon blasts and was shot dead by terrorists when he rushed to Cama hospital when there were reports of terrorists opening fire there during the Mumbai attacks.

The other hero is Ashok Kamte, the Additional Commissioner of Mumbai Police who was an excellent negotiator in crisis situations. That was what he had gone to do during the Mumbai attacks when he too was shot dead.

The third police officer is Vijay Salaskar, one of India's best-known encounter specialists.

Anonymous said...

DEAR GOI PLEASE TAKE MY MSP-6000/ BUT PLEASE INCREASE MY GRADE PAY YOU WILL SAVE MORE THAN RS 4500/PM FROM ME ALONE.

Anonymous said...

@Pragmatic

Unconditional apologies for the profanities.....

My mistake.....

Anonymous said...

Firstly, I must compliment Maj Navdeep on the yeoman service he has been rendering to the fraternity of the Armed Forces. Your articles are well researched, with incisive insights, and equally important, they address issues that are of relevance to the forces. May your tribe increase.
I really do not know what the out-come of the GoM's deliberations on the issue of pay and status equivalences will be, and as with all of you out there, I pray that justice is meted out to the soldiers....by God, they deserve that much, and much more. After all, it takes years of 'blood, sweat, toils and tears' to shape an institution so fine and upright, and just a few misguided decisions to start ripping apart the structure that holds it; a sense of elan, izzat, commitment (ephemeral and meaningless terms to those in the quest for pelf and power) comes from the belief that a nation honours the sacrifice made by the men in uniform, and these finally translate to success in the assigned missions, whatever the cost.
Time (and that too, shortly), will tell us the outcome, but irrespective of the same, there is a lesson some-where in this for the Armed Forces, that must be learnt in full measure, and that is, you cannot remain an organisation whose knowledge domain is limited to purely professional matters; there is a requirement to develop expertise that would enable them to examine other relevant issues in perspective, and in a historical context. The prevailing psyche, for instance, of taking pride in the fact that "I don't know my basic pay and entitlements, that's the job of the CDA(O)', in the - mistaken - belief that others will look after their interest, will have to be abandoned, once and for all, to ensure that such situations do not arise in the future.
Sadly, the philosophy of 'damn your writing, mind your fighting', (in the sense, just concentrate on your profession) has to be given up for good.
For, the age of innocence has gone forever. And I say, good riddance.
Jai Hind

Anonymous said...

I completely agree with Anonymous at 7:28 pm.
One should be completely aware of his details of his pay and all his allowances and not just leave it for the CDA.
I know of an old case of an officer who after two months of his retirement got quite a lot of money to his suprise.The reason was that about 15 years before his retirement he was not given an increment due to him as he was on long sick leave after a heart attack at that time.

Anonymous said...

@ Anony 7:28

Agree with you. Anyone talking pay & allces is branded 'PA Singh' (Pers Adm Singh)!!!

Now that we know 'Singh is King'.

Time to become King, folks.

Anonymous said...

Gentlemen. There is an instruement called DO letter which even a captain can write to the COAS. It is legal and as per service customs. If you feel strongly on the issue.All may decide to express their feeligs to the COAS in polite two lines. Imagine the chief getting 20000 thousand opinions on an issue. After this he will have to do what you want him to do.

Anonymous said...

DEAR NAVDEEP,

1. THANK U SO MUCH FOR KEEPING THE POOR IGNORANT ARMY OFFR AWARE OF THE HAPPENINGS AND PROVIDING A PLATFORM FOR AIRING OUR VIEWS ON SUBJECTS CONCERNING US. PL KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

2. SECONDLY WE ALL SHOULD ALSO THANK THE CHIEFS FOR PUTTING UP AN UNITED AND STRONG STAND TO THE GOVT IN HIGHLIGHTING THE GRIEVANCES OF THE PERS OF ARMED FORCES ON THE 6PC. SINCE WE DO NOT HAVE ANY UNION TO FIGHT FOR OUR LEGITIMATE CAUSES,THE COAS IS THE FINAL BASTION. THANK YOU SIR.

3. HOPE THE ANOMALIES IN THE PAY HIKE ARE ADDRESSED TOO.

THE INDIAN ARMY WILL ALWAYS FIGHT THE ENEMY IRRESPECTIVE OF THE 6PC BUT REMEMBER, A HAPPY ARMY WILL ALWYS FIGHT BETTER.

JAI HIND.

Anonymous said...

PATIENCE WEARING THIN --- PRANAB
Times of India front page –23 december

Don’t worry pranab mukherjii if this India keeps ill treating you may not get anything to wear.

So finally this country this country has declared that isss Desh mein fauzi ki aukaat kutte jitnii bhi nanhi hai.

Three chiefs kept begging for three months so this is the result.
Teachers went on two day strike and they got PB4 in 12 years with 9000 grade pay.

YOU ALL FAUZI s
Curse you own COLs and GENs who now will force you to f**** yourself for this useless nation which is not bothered about you.

if a bde cdr cannot save his izzat how will he save nations izzaat.
read one of the postings above which says how fauz was humiliated by a young DC in manipur

Anonymous said...

" The Single Bench of Central Information Commission in Delhi headed by Information Commissioner Satyananda Mishra has summoned the Chief of Army Staff's wife to be present in person and depose before the commission in a particular case regarding Army Wives Welfare AssociatioN"

IT HAPPENS IF YOU ASK FOR PARITY

BUT SURPRISINGLY IT WAS ONLY NAVY CHIEF WHO ASKED FOR PARITY

Anonymous said...

There seems to be a section of the critics, bent upon demoralising the armed forces. Iam a member of the armed forces too, and I sincerely urge upon all my brethren, not to get demoralised in any fashion. We presently have a job to perform, and let us do it with utmost dedication. Things will fall into place automatically after our country has attained its objective.

Anonymous said...

@annonymous 9.13

OHHH YESSSS things will fall in line as it has been for the last 60 years.

Defense forces has been getting f**** because of thinking like yours
they will suck the army and just throw it away again

Anonymous said...

Understand shifting/change/increase is across the board for all in pay scale 12000-16500/Ltcols.
If this is correct then we are back to square one

Anonymous said...

I feel even raise of 10000 is good.let us do our job things will always fallin line

Anonymous said...

@annony...at 9:13 and 9:56...

unlike u v r no more in a mood to lump it ...

Nobody is asking anything extra only v r wanting our IZZAT in terms of parity be given back...

So how can u even say that 10000/- is OK...surprising..hope u r not focussed on MONEY Only.

Enough is Enough...

Anonymous said...

How strongly do we feel about being being humiliated in grade pay? Are we ready to lay down our lives for it? What would our coursemates who were killed since commissioning think about this downgradation? Is it worth fighting for? Are we willing to kill and put our families and pensions at risk? Or we are merely willing to beg till we get tired of begging?
I am disgusted with myself for being so helpless.
The way all this has been made to look like a 'gimme more pay' makes my blood boil. I wish the ruling elite of this country rots in hell.

Anonymous said...

Parity and status have been lost.

Only one formulation will work now:

Lt & Equiv: JTS
Capt & Equiv: STS
Major & Equiv: JAG
Lt. Col & Equiv: Director+ upto 16 years of service, thereafter Jt. Secy
Col & Equiv: Jt. Secy till 26 years of service and then addl. secy
Brig & Equiv: Addl Secy
Maj Gen & Equiv: HAG+
Lt Gen & Equiv: Secy
Lt Gen Army Cdr/AoC/FoC: Full General: Cab Secy
Chief of Staff: Full General with 5 Stars: Above Cab Secy

Anonymous said...

@NAVDEEP SIR..

U VE SAID THIS IN UR POST ON BLOG..

"There are also indications that equivalence / seniority of the defence services vis-a-vis civil services may be dumped for good."

BUT THE HOW WILL THIS WORK OUT WHEN DEPUTATIONS AND WOP HAS TO WORKED OUT?

Dost Of Fauj said...

Dear anon @09:13 and 09:56,
U guys are surely not Lt Cols/equivalents.If U are then why don't you pl fwd forms to CDA(O) Pune exercising option to stay in the old pay band (i.e. pre 6CPC).

Anonymous said...

I hope Naval Officers also get PB-4after 26 years service like their Army and IAF counterparts. The Navy has not promoted Cdr (TS) to Capt (TS) after 26 years service whereas the Army and IAF have done so. I hope that there is parity among the three services in promotion, career progression, status and pay. I am sure the needful will be done when the anomalies are resolved.

Anonymous said...

What rot is this? All Civil Servants get PB-4 in 10-11 years of service. All CPMFs get it in 15. And Armed forces officers are hoping HOPING mind you, its not at all certain, that they will get it in 26 years of service??!!?

Rubbish!

Anonymous said...

Alas, this is a symptom of the decay of Indian society and democracy itself. Instead of aiming for the best, we are involved in a race to the bottom.

60 years ago, we used to take the best of the best in our government and civil and military services. Democracy has brought egalitarianism, but also crassness.

There are no rules anymore, and it is every man for himself.

What this country needs is a framework which protects the constitution from damage. An ultimate arbiter. We are a young democracy yet. We must make sure that we are not ruined by considerations such as false equality, false secularism, and real and misguided populism.

It is of the essence that balance is restored in our democracy. Someone must prevent this crass materialism, and the age of ideals must be brought back.

Politics and government service of all hues must be returned to being noble occupations.

And an iron fist must be used to crush out corruption, which has become so great a bane of our society. Our democracy needs its pillars to gird it. If these pillars (the judiciary, the political executive, the legislature, the armed forces) are being rotted away, where is our anchor?

We must act fast. India needs an anchor. She needs to be placed back on the path of moderation, of truth, idealism, and real justice and egalitarianism and opportunity for her citizens.

Anonymous said...

Indeed, I would submit that the system as it stands has cracked and fractured beyond repair. Politics has become the occupation of the opportunist, the fixer, the criminal and intimidator.
Civil servants, closer to the political scene, starting in the states where it is particularly bad, have long since resigned themselves to being subverted by this system. Indeed, they are content with ruling their own little feifdoms and letting Rome burn.

And while we are indulging ourselves in this circus of poor leadership, there are others watching and waiting. The chinese. The pakistanis. The maoists. The evangelical radicals. The Jihadist wahhabbis.

They are all circling, like vultures over this carcass.

It is time that we as a nation, swept away the filth which has destroyed our democracy.

We need to save this country. It is eminently worth saving. Our nation and our freedom is a precious gift to us, from God. Let us not let the foolishness and greed of a few ruin it for us.

Anonymous said...

Tes, Save the country - VOTE!

Anonymous said...

Use your weapon-





VOTE !



Not 'weep'on

Anonymous said...

The career profile of an IAS officer currently in a senior post in the MINDEF. Chequered.

IV. Experience Details.
Sl.No Designation/Level Department/Office Organization Experience (Major/Minor) Period
(From/To)

1 Asstt Collector
Jr. Time Scale CADRE Land Revenue Mgmt & District Admn
District Admn 01/07/1972
01/12/1974

2 Addl Collector
Sr. Time Scale CADRE Land Revenue Mgmt & District Admn
District Admn 01/12/1974
01/08/1975

3 Settlement Officer
Sr. Time Scale CADRE Land Revenue Mgmt & District Admn
Settlement 01/08/1975
01/01/1978

4 Collector
Sr. Time Scale Tikamgarh CADRE Land Revenue Mgmt & District Admn
District Admn 01/01/1978
01/08/1979

5 Collector
Dy Secy Level/JAG Bhopal CADRE Land Revenue Mgmt & District Admn
District Admn 01/08/1979
01/09/1981

6 Collector
Dy Secy Level/JAG Gwalior CADRE Land Revenue Mgmt & District Admn
District Admn 01/09/1981
01/06/1982

7 Dy Secy
Dy Secy M/o Rural Dev
D/o Rural Dev
CENTRE-N.DELHI Rural Dev
Rural Development 01/07/1982
01/08/1983

8 Coordinator
Dy Secy Equiv M/o Tourism & Culture
Festival of India
CENTRE-N.DELHI Culture
Cultural Affairs 01/08/1983
01/12/1984

9 Director
Director M/o Tourism & Culture
Festival of India
CENTRE-N.DELHI Culture
Cultural Affairs 01/12/1984
01/07/1987

10 Member
JS Level/Level - I Narmada Valley Dev Auth (NVDA)
CADRE Urban Development
Urban Develoment 01/08/1987
01/05/1988

11 Commr
JS Level/Level - I CADRE Land Revenue Mgmt & District Admn
Divisional Admn 01/05/1988
01/01/1989

12 Commr
JS Level/Level - I CADRE Urban Development
Urban Develoment 01/01/1989
01/05/1990

13 Commr
JS Level/Level - I CADRE Land Revenue Mgmt & District Admn
Divisional Admn 01/05/1990
01/02/1994

14 Secretary
JS Level/Level - I CADRE Home
Home 01/02/1994
12/01/1995

15 On Foreign Training
JS Level/Level - I CDR-FOREIGN TRG N.Applicable/N.Available
Not Applicable 13/01/1995
29/03/1995

16 Secretary
JS Level/Level - I CADRE Home
Home 30/03/1995
01/10/1995

17 E/o Prl Secy
Addl Secy Level D/o Home
CADRE Home
Home 01/10/1995
01/08/1996

18 O S D
Addl Secy Level CADRE Home
Home 01/10/1995
01/08/1996

19 Jt Secy & F A
Joint Secy M/o Health & Family Welfare
D/o Health
CENTRE-N.DELHI Health & Family Welfare
Health & Family Welfare 01/08/1996
13/11/2001

20 O S D
Addl Secy Level Industries & Commerce Deptt
CADRE Commerce
Commerce 13/11/2001
20/09/2002

21 Addl Secy & F A
Addl Secy M/o Chemicals & Fertilizers
D/o Fertilizers
CENTRE-N.DELHI Finance
Finance 20/09/2002
08/04/2003

22 Addl Secy
Addl Secy M/o Info & Broadcasting
CENTRE-N.DELHI Information & Broadcasting
Information 08/04/2003
01/10/2004

23 Chief Secy
Secy Level Madhya Pradesh CADRE Personnel & General Admn
General Administration 01/10/2004
31/01/2006

24 Secretary
Secretary M/o Health & Family Welfare
D/o AYUSH
CENTRE-N.DELHI Health & Family Welfare
Ayurveda 01/02/2006
31/07/2006

25 Secretary
Secretary M/o Shipping, Road Tpt & Highways
D/o Road Tpt & Highways
CENTRE-N.DELHI Transport
Road Transport 31/07/2006
31/07/2007

26 Secretary
Secretary M/o Defence
D/o Defence
CENTRE-N.DELHI Defence
Defence 01/08/2007


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imhonest said...

Lets face the truth. If you throw peanuts, you get monkeys and not tigers. If this is how the GOI has decided to place this issue, then the country loses as now the standard would drop further. Everyone knows the standard of our officers that joined the services during the emergency commission. Anyone and everyone who applied was selected. The problem is that we may not be able to link the 'effect' with the 'cause' when we fail. At that time only blame game would be doing the rounds, like how we see in the Mumbai attack. No one has really come out with a white paper on the real causes. We all know what and how it happened, but do we know why it happened. Yes, by the time the blame game ends, this matter would be forgotten and the entire issue buried for good.

Another point that I want to make here. Many of the respondents have written very aggressively on their feelings and they have been told by many to mind their language. Let me remind all that if an army soldier is not aggressive he would not dare to go out and face the bullet that he knows would take his life. We all saw the way Police faced this issue. Expression of aggression is a very positive attribute for a soldier. He cannot be expected to behave like a sissy. Moreover, he is not a professor in literature to express it in a flowery language. Mind you most of the respondents are young and full of josh. Let them express this way only. Its a positive sign that the josh still exists. The day this josh dies down, battles will be lost at the outset. So, keep on young guys. Atleast I m proud of all of you the way you have responded. Let us not lose the very important attribute we have on the suggestion of some who in the face of war would be found no where in the battle field.

The other day I read a newspaper article commenting loosly, by the author (Mr. Rahul Singh),on the reasons why candidates were being rejected from SSBs. I m sure the author has no background of the way and circumstances in which army operates. If he were to have his way, then the army would one day go the police way. And we all saw it live on TV. The scenario on the battlefield in the face of war is something that even words fall short. The fear psychosis is such that only dare-devils can dare to sustain that. The more we entertain the polliticians, babus and the journalists into the affairs of the armed forces, only we stand to lose. We must reduce the need for the armed forces to hold press conferences.

Anonymous said...

Here's an interesting forward …….
Firing from the other man's shoulder!
Dear Fauji Friend

Last week Maj Gen Joshi called on me. He was an esteemed instructor during our Degree Course days, and EME officers would remember him as one of our finest engineers. Indeed, he spent most of his time with the DRDO. He was commissioned in Jun 1960 and was in the Eastern sector during the 1962 debacle. He has analyzed the event very systematically, and his study reveals the following :-
· Pt Nehru, the architect of modern India suffered a severe stroke of depression from which he never quite recovered. He died in May 1964 at the comparatively young age of 73.
· VK Krishna Menon was removed from the post of Raksha Mantri for his incorrect assessment of the situation.
· Gen Thapar, the COAS was sacked. The careers of Lt Gen Kaul and scores of other military officers took a "U" turn.
· A few thousand soldiers died; many more were wounded and some were taken prisoners.
· The psyche of the country received a severe blow. It was considered a 'National Shame'
The question he asked me was, "Who was the Defence Secretary? And what was the punishment meted out to him?"

I have asked several friends and also surfed the Internet but I am unable to find an answer. In all probability nothing was done to him, because he had no role in this!

Gen Joshi then took this discussion a step further. He observed that during the recent attack on Mumbai, dozens of soldiers and policemen have been killed. The whole nation is shaken.. Mr Shivraj Patil has lost his prestigious job. The CM of Maharashtra has been axed and several heads in the government are likely to roll. Can some one tell us as to what action has been taken against the Union Home Secretary or the Chief Secretary of Maharashtra? (Thomas tells me that they will all be "promoted" soon though he does not know why).

Having spent many years in and around the South Block, I marvel at the way our government has been structured. The Civil Servants rule the roost. In terms of promotions and status they are ahead of every one else by miles. They are central in the Pay Commission and the Cabinet Secretary is involved in every major decision making process. Yet, when things go wrong, they wash their hands off so clean that one wonders how!

A slightly closer examination reveals the secret. I have figured it out this way:
· They never do anything themselves. They always find some one else to be the head, and they know how to reduce him to be a 'figure head'. (In the Pay Commissions, they have a retired Judge). However they place themselves in a spot which has the maximum opportunity to influence matters.
· After the event, they never face the Press or the Media. Their role is amorphous.
· The senior amongst them rarely sign a letter or order. Our pension letter is signed by a Director, who is not directly recruited IAS officer. Only rarely do you find a paper signed by a Joint Secretary. Officers above that level do not sign any document.
· They have a strong association. It protects the interests of its members dutifully and diligently.
So we have our Defence headquarters in which the postings, promotions, rewards and punishments of all senior officers are controlled by the civil servants; and they also have the final say in the process of procurement of weapons and eqpt, but they are not "responsible" if things go wrong! It is authority without responsibility. (For those who may not know, a lowly officer in the MoD can have a Deputy Chief posted out, but a Service Chief can not get even a Desk Officer moved)
When Gen Joshi left, I found myself perplexed. What sort of system have we evolved? And how has it survived all these years? It is a bit like a unit in which the clerks are running the unit and the CO is so dependent on the Head Clerk that he can not move without their help!
Can some one give a cogent answer to the questions raised by Gen Joshi?

Regards,
Surjit

PS : Politicians wear the dress of the people they represent, to identify themselves with the masses. Soldiers and Policemen wear uniforms. Can some one tell what the Civil Servants wear?
The answer came from the wag who said, "Civil servants wear thick skins"

Anonymous said...

Here's an interesting forward …….
Firing from the other man's shoulder!
Dear Fauji Friend

Last week Maj Gen Joshi called on me. He was an esteemed instructor during our Degree Course days, and EME officers would remember him as one of our finest engineers. Indeed, he spent most of his time with the DRDO. He was commissioned in Jun 1960 and was in the Eastern sector during the 1962 debacle. He has analyzed the event very systematically, and his study reveals the following :-
· Pt Nehru, the architect of modern India suffered a severe stroke of depression from which he never quite recovered. He died in May 1964 at the comparatively young age of 73.
· VK Krishna Menon was removed from the post of Raksha Mantri for his incorrect assessment of the situation.
· Gen Thapar, the COAS was sacked. The careers of Lt Gen Kaul and scores of other military officers took a "U" turn.
· A few thousand soldiers died; many more were wounded and some were taken prisoners.
· The psyche of the country received a severe blow. It was considered a 'National Shame'
The question he asked me was, "Who was the Defence Secretary? And what was the punishment meted out to him?"

I have asked several friends and also surfed the Internet but I am unable to find an answer. In all probability nothing was done to him, because he had no role in this!

Gen Joshi then took this discussion a step further. He observed that during the recent attack on Mumbai, dozens of soldiers and policemen have been killed. The whole nation is shaken.. Mr Shivraj Patil has lost his prestigious job. The CM of Maharashtra has been axed and several heads in the government are likely to roll. Can some one tell us as to what action has been taken against the Union Home Secretary or the Chief Secretary of Maharashtra? (Thomas tells me that they will all be "promoted" soon though he does not know why).

Having spent many years in and around the South Block, I marvel at the way our government has been structured. The Civil Servants rule the roost. In terms of promotions and status they are ahead of every one else by miles. They are central in the Pay Commission and the Cabinet Secretary is involved in every major decision making process. Yet, when things go wrong, they wash their hands off so clean that one wonders how!

A slightly closer examination reveals the secret. I have figured it out this way:
· They never do anything themselves. They always find some one else to be the head, and they know how to reduce him to be a 'figure head'. (In the Pay Commissions, they have a retired Judge). However they place themselves in a spot which has the maximum opportunity to influence matters.
· After the event, they never face the Press or the Media. Their role is amorphous.
· The senior amongst them rarely sign a letter or order. Our pension letter is signed by a Director, who is not directly recruited IAS officer. Only rarely do you find a paper signed by a Joint Secretary. Officers above that level do not sign any document.
· They have a strong association. It protects the interests of its members dutifully and diligently.
So we have our Defence headquarters in which the postings, promotions, rewards and punishments of all senior officers are controlled by the civil servants; and they also have the final say in the process of procurement of weapons and eqpt, but they are not "responsible" if things go wrong! It is authority without responsibility. (For those who may not know, a lowly officer in the MoD can have a Deputy Chief posted out, but a Service Chief can not get even a Desk Officer moved)
When Gen Joshi left, I found myself perplexed. What sort of system have we evolved? And how has it survived all these years? It is a bit like a unit in which the clerks are running the unit and the CO is so dependent on the Head Clerk that he can not move without their help!
Can some one give a cogent answer to the questions raised by Gen Joshi?

Regards,
Surjit

PS : Politicians wear the dress of the people they represent, to identify themselves with the masses. Soldiers and Policemen wear uniforms. Can some one tell what the Civil Servants wear?
The answer came from the wag who said, "Civil servants wear thick skins"

kb said...

well...here goes...

what's the difference between the Indian Army Offr & a Prostitute?

she can say no.

i think the above "joke" says it all.

Anonymous said...

TO ACCEPT PB4 WITHOUT GRADE PAY EQUIVALENCE IS THOUSAND DAGGERS BY THE BABBOZ IN OUR BACKS WHILE WE WERE FIGHTING THE ENEMY AT THE BORDER. WE WOULD RATHER GIVE BABOZZ TWO THOUSAND RUPEE BAKSHEESH AND TAKE EQUAL SALARY THEN ACCEPTING THE GRADE PAY

Anonymous said...

PB4 without the grade Pay ---Never , Never EVER

watchdog said...

Here is the 100th comment
" "

Anonymous said...

Dear navdeep,
i have utmost regard for u to provide such a plateform to ponder our thought ,which we cannot bring out being in uniform, unfortunately we do not aspire for more mony but for the respect in the society, more over we the serving one have first to clean our dirt from the organisations and then can demand more from any body, i am about to say good by to this org. and eager to join delhi High court for further battle as an advocate. thanks once again keep it up see u

Anonymous said...

Well The Govt Does what the babus want....
let teh Babus (IAS) get this Beizzati and let us see if tehy r ready to serve the nation.
No chance of Defence accepting less Izzaat then CIVIL.
or let her civil take over army job and we can realx and chill out with 5 days of week,
PM should intervine but why expect any thing from a lame duck PM who toes the SOniya line who just wants to maintain POWER.
why bother for defence when they do not vote.
see Rahul more intersted in pleasing Dalit to counter mayawati then to look at the affairs of the country.....
PM hai,,, hai....

Surinder said...

There is a gentleman in one of the posts above who feels that youngsters should be given their head and told to let off steam. May I ask this same gentleman: are you or were you ever a serving Armed Forces officer? If yes, how many times did you allow a youngster to stand up to you and say that you were wrong? Even once ? My dear sir, in today's vitiated atmosphere, is it necessary to shout ourselves hoarse, knowing fully well that all that is posted on this blog is finding its way (selectively) into 'briefs'? These 'briefs' are the method our ruling classes gauge our reaction to various issues.
Tell me, how many IAS types have you seen here or any other blog, shooting their mouth off ? The one odd dissenting voice is probably a junior/mid-level bureaucrat who just wants to 'stir the pot' in a manner of speaking. Shooting off at the mouth HERE is useless; we should change our lot through political means. Why is it that we have a 'don't care' attitude towards elections and casting our votes? Because we have been brain-washed into believing that we are 'apolitical' !! Being apolitical means only that the Armed Forces will NOT take sides and will obey the instructions and orders given to them by a legitimately elected Govt. I do not see it written anywhere that 'faujis' cannot or should not vote.
There are some apprehensions expressed that voting will lead to a gradual politisization of the Forces. I disagree. When the Forces were INVITED by the politicians to take over (1977), they refused! Why the hell should we shoulder yet another burden ?? But we SHOULD have a voice. And if it leads to a politicization of the Armed Forces, well, the crass politicians and the eminently selfish and self-centered bureaucrats have only themselves to blame.
For who in the Armed Forces will lay down his life in the knowledge that his sacrifice will have been said to have been 'bought' with the pittance he is paid.