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Friday, October 31, 2008

Status, equivalence and pay parity : does it affect pensioners and retirees ? It damn well does !!


I have often heard retired officers commenting that the fight for status and equivalence is a battle which is to be fought by the serving community and it is the One Rank One Pension (OROP) demand which really concerns retired personnel.

This is a misconception. The pension of retired personnel is directly linked to the status and pay of serving personnel. Some instances may be absolutely glaring and some may not, but the fact remains that the two issues are intertwined. I’ll explain how.

Whenever Pay Commission recommendations are implemented, it is provided that the pension of earlier retirees (for example, pre 1-1-2006 retirees) would not go below a value @ 50% of the starting rate of the new pay scale for every grade or rank. To take an example, after the 5th CPC, the minimum basic pension admissible to a Major could not be less than Rs 6,400/- (that is, 50% of starting of Rs 12,800 – the start of a Major’s scale). But now see below how things changed for retired personnel this time due to a change in the pay equation of serving officers - especially for the rank of Lt Col :-

Situation till now
Minimum Basic Pension admissible to a Non-Functional Selection Grade (NFSG) Officer of the Civil Services (Director to Govt of India) : Rs 7150/- (that is, 50% of start of scale – Rs 14,300/-)

Minimum Basic Pension admissible to a Lt Col : Rs 7550/- (that is, 50% of start of scale – Rs 15,100/-)

Situation after the 6th CPC
Minimum Basic Pension admissible to a Non-Functional Selection Grade (NFSG) Officer of the Civil Services : Rs 23,050/- (that is, 50% of start of scale – Rs 37400 + Rs 8700 Grade Pay)

Minimum Basic Pension admissible to a Lt Col : Rs 11,600/- (that is, 50% of start of scale – Rs 15,600 + Rs 7600 Grade Pay)

Or Let’s put it more simply :

Minimum possible basic pension of an NFSG Officer after the 5th CPC : Rs 7150/-
Minimum possible basic pension of a Lt Col after the 5th CPC : Rs 7550/-

Minimum possible basic pension of an NFSG Officer after the 6th CPC : Rs 23,050/-
Minimum possible basic pension of a Lt Col after the 6th CPC : Rs 11,600/-

Could you spot the difference ? Oh really ??? Don't tell me !!!

Though practically speaking the pension of Lt Colonels who retired prior to 2006 after full pensionable service (33 years with or without weightage) would be around Rs 17,000, officers who retired pre-maturely in the rank of Lt Col prior to 1-1-2006 would be the worst hit. Another category facing the heat would be disability pensioners. The service pension part (service element) of disability pensioners invalided before completion of pensionable service would be fixed at Rs 11,600/- flat and this shall be applicable both to pre and post 1-1-2006 cases, while the service element of their erstwhile civilian counterparts (pre and post 1-1-2006) would now be fixed at Rs 23,050/-.



Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,
i dont think this argument will hold.
the min basic pay for a lt col even in pb 3 would be (13500+1600)*1.86 = 28086
Therefore the pension (min) would be 28086 + 7600 = 35686 / 2 = 17843.
This is what the ias / mod would say.
Ofcourse this is entirely my perception. may have to wait for the pensioners tables for defence for clarification.
I can talk about this since my dad is a pre1996 pensioner in select lt col scale.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

No. The pensions of old retirees have been delinked. In theory the minimum pension would be 11,600 but not below it (that's why I say minimum 'possible' basic pension). In practice, the new pension would be calculated by using the formula promulgated by the 6th CPC (adding a jump of 40% etc in earlier total pension). Officers who retired without putting in 33 years service (with weightage) for full pension would be the worst hit.

See the Chapter related to pensions in the 6th CPC and you'll get what I'm saying.

Co VT Venkatesh(Retd) said...

Though the Defence pension is yet to be notified ,a pre 2006 lt Gen would be getting less pension than a post 2006 Col
Actually there is goi bg to be lot of litigation by pensioners this time round(both by Civ & Def pensioners)
The whole pension scheme is deliberatley skewed.Even the MSP date of effect ie 01 Sep 2008 is to prevent pre 2006 pensiners from getting the MSP component in their pension

Anonymous said...

@ Dear navdeep,
the pension calc is as follows
earlier pension 7550 + 3775 (50 % d.p) = 11,325
To this add 40 % of 7550 = 3020
thus, 14345.
To this add 24 % multiplication factor = 3443
Thus total basic pension = 17788

Ofcourse, this is substantially less than NFSG.
And this is what the ex-servicemen should fight for ( that they were getting more than NFSG, now how come they would get less?)

Anonymous said...

When is the government going to announce Payband 4 to Lt Cols?
Will pension of Lt Cols be affected if they don't get Payband 4 and by how much? Why is there so much delay though Diwali is over.

Anonymous said...

@ all, my anony post of 1124.

Slight correction
24 % Multi factor is on 11325 , thus 2718.
The total basic pension = 17063

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony @ 11.24PM

In the calculation, we are missing out on one major factor.

Rs 7550 which is being taken into account is only for those who had completed full pensionable service of 33 years with or without weightage. For persons who had completed 20 to 33 years, the amount was to be proportionately reduced. Hence while those who had full pensionable service are bound to be placed around Rs 17000 while those with lesser years of service are going to be put between 11600 and 17000 depending upon the years put in since the pension for a Lt Col cannot go below 11600. I'll post the exact paragraph of the 6th CPC report in the morning for you.

Anonymous said...

dear maj navdeep
i have once again enjoyed your new blog

the logic of the system being imposed on indian defence services by the very people who are supposed to protect and support the armed forces is very disheartening to put it mildly

can those of us already retired and especially those who are on the verge of retirement within the next few months be given the pleasure of graceful retirement?

remember some of us have served over 37 yesra and the conditions when we joined were pretty harsh, but we had the beconing call of nations gratitude and respect

in others words is there any hope for us at the end of this long journey?

thank you

Anonymous said...

An excellent Alibi to be used for serving as well as retired def pers.

Penmil said...

Dear Maj.Navdeep,
Thanks.Well stated.All old retirees will be affected by the pay bands ,grade pays and MSP granted to the serving active soldiers.The pension after 01/01/2006 of an old retiree will be subject to a minimum of half of lowest of the PB+GP in which his rank falls.

Isn't the new pension equal to 2.26times the pension at retirement OR (PB+GP+MSP)/2,whichever is more, for all those with full pension?

If Lt.Col is in PB4 all retired Lt.Cols stand to gain.
If Grade Pays are incresed, all retirees will also get more pension.

There is as much reason for the old retirees to get worried about the PB + GP, as there is for the active service person.

War Veteran said...

@Maj Navdeep
Is it confirmed that MSP will not be considered for fitment of pension for past pensioners? What is the standing of the Supreme Court judgement you posted couple of months ago regarding past pensioners?

Bharat said...

Dear Navdeep,
Minimum possible Basic Pension to a Lt Col ( as per Pay Band 3 )should be Rs 14600(that is, 50% of start of scale – Rs 15,600 + Rs 7600 Grade Pay + Rs 6000 MSP).

MSP is to be considered for calculation of pension as per VI Pay Commission.

Ajith said...

for annony at 31 Oct 11.28 PM

The committee of ministers have not yet finalised their findings.
Please read this TOI news.


Anonymous said...

These politicians can never keep their words; and when they speak, their meaning is entirely different. Perhaps Oct end means Oct 2009; or perhaps Oct 2016- the year of 7th pay comm

Anonymous said...

@Ajith at9.10 am

Mukherjee committee yet to decide on pay grievances of forces
31 Oct 2008, 1848 hrs IST, PTI

NEW DELHI: The Pranab Mukherjee committee on armed forces' pay grievances has failed to come out with a decision yet, despite the Defence Ministry's assurance that it would do so by the end of this month.

Defence Minister A K Antony, who is a member of the ministerial committee, remained non-committal on when the high-level committee would come out with its decision on the four "core issues" over the Sixth Pay Commission.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had set up the committee, with Finance Minister P Chidambaram as the third member, on September 25 to consider the "discriminatory" provisions in the wake of armed forces' reluctance to implement a Cabinet decision on the pay commission report.

Though no official time limit for the committee had been set, Defence Ministry, while announcing the PM's decision, had informed that the decision on the "disparities" would be announced by October end.

"Discussions are (still) going on," Antony told reporters here after the Navy Commanders Conference to a query if the three-member ministerial committee's decision would come out today.

The tri-services, on the other hand, said it had no information on when the committee's decision would be known, as it was not in the loop on the minister's discussion on their grievances.

When the same question was put to Navy chief, Admiral Suresh Mehta, who is also the Chairman of the Chiefs of the Staff Committee, he said there could be no deadline for any discussion.

Ajith said...

annony 9:54 AM

Is it different from what I posted?!

Anonymous said...

@ Navdeep.
What legal options do serving officers have, to protest against down-gradation of status and pay, since pay by CDA has just been credited with anomalous grade pays?
ROG or a Statutory Complaint seems ridiculous since the Govt/Cabinet itself is the culprit. Who will we complain against and complain to? Complain against the PM or the Cabinet or the Chiefs?!!
Complain to the President or the Courts?
I'm sure this is weighing on all.
What's the way out? Surely not whining on the net as our colleagues in civil services fail not to insinuate?
Reacting physically is doubly abhorrent since we despise the way we have been pushed into a corner to even consider a physical option to protect our military honour.
Granted that we are not the meek of this country; as warriors, is not suffering injustice culpable of perpetrating it.
What's the way out?

Indian army officer? The group B officer. said...

are you going to bother for your pet dog whom you keep always with a chain if the dog does not bark or bite you.
but mind you if the dog starts biting you will shoot the dog.
i feel this describes the condition of an indian army officer fully.

it can neither bark nor bite and if it starts biting the netas and boboos will kill him

Ajith said...

Even a Dog will have his day! That day we say that 'you have gone to Dogs'!

The services should not quit now. You have the moral support of the Indian Public opinion with you. Any doubt? Please go through this link.

Indian army officer? The group B officer. said...

Granted that we are not the meek of this country; as warriors, is not suffering injustice culpable of perpetrating it.

dear you may not be the meek but army officer are just slave of this country.

just try opening your mouth and your own Gen fill up form 10 for you
do'nt you remember the AF agitation in last pay commission
AF General only sorted out their comrades no neta or baboo was involved in that.

Ajith said...

Precisely that is the situation the Generals want to avoid now. So they are speaking out. Is their anyone listening but?

Anonymous said...

This what prabhu chawla of india today has to say about a poser on his website

Anonymous said...

THEdiscussion on pension will be unending. A post 1-09-2008,will get less amount in bank , then a pre 2006 retire.
eg 37400+8700+6000=51700
pension-25850 after commutation
pre2006 retire 37400+8700=23050-4275(commuted value) =18775+16DA
ONE may say a post sept 2008 got more by commutation .what is value of money is it the same asit was in 80sor 90s ,2000.SO navadeep the disussion will be unending .SO who gets more in bank apost sept2008 retired or pre06 retired.VERY ODD .YES ITIS AND ITIS AFACT.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@War Vet @ 7.41 AM

Not decided yet.

Anonymous said...

this might be interesting

are the armed forces personnel permitted to go to courts or ask for release from service based on the faux pas of the pay commission
maj navdeep id request you to kindly answer these two queries

Anonymous said...

@1.35 I endorse your views. Irrespective of commuted value , irrespective of date of retirement ,one rank one pension means the same amount should be credited in BANK for all individuals of a particular rank. And not just fixation of pension for pre & post retires.IN such cases who is aloser or who is a gainer.anonymoous at 1.35 pm has raised a thought provoking point.

Anonymous said...

Is there any decision taken on Pay issues as it was expected. I just saw two breaking news; first PM assured to address the pay concerns of forces secondly LK Advani promised to rectfy pay anomaly of armed forces when they come in power.

So what is the latest ? Could Forces get justice today from the political masters

Anonymous said...

Guys don't worry u r in to pb4.Announcment is getting delayed due to a ur large numbers. The expenditure involved in accomodating u in to higher pay band.

Remember ur strongest point is ur strength . The strongest point is also the weakest point and vice versa.

u cant be denied, because the logic and truth is with u. A certain set of people did not take u there as they felt envious due ur pay going much higher than them after includig msp.

They are not ready to accept that the msp is for ur early retirement age which is almost six years. Even in monetory terms msp of 6000 is no where near to ur loss. when u r suppose to be drawing the highest salary and maximum family commitments, u become a pensioner.

MSP also copensateS for low promotional prospects, hardships, disturbance to family life, leading the troops in extremely difficult conditions, 24 x 7 working hours etc.

Infact the amount given for MSP itself is very low. The positive point is that it is atleast thought of.

An other point is that the most of the people at the highest level of decision making have understood ur point. God would give the strength and understanding to a few who have not yet understood.

Rohit said...


Until the present CPC, the armed forces officer recieved a higher starting basic pay than those joining any of the other civil services. Also, the pay at the highest rank was equal to that of the highest placed civil servant both having put in 40 years of service.

In view of the above, an innocent observer/ bystander will be correct in assuming that the salary for the armed forces should stay higher at any point of service.

In case the govt had earlier been providing higher starting basic pay just as an invitation to lure the officer for military service, this should be an example of entrapment and hence there is bound to be a law against that.

Hence, IMHO, the govt can fix any salary and equivalance for the officers joining post 6 CPC, but should be legally bound to maintain the status and salary of existing officers vis a vis equally placed civilian services.

Can this issue of entrapment of existing officers be taken to the appropriate court of law and a STAY ORDER obtained on the 6CPC, till the Lt Col anomaly is sorted out.

The counterparty may argue, that the govt being the employer, is within its rights to compensate any person as it deems fit. However, logic would sustain that it is not possible that in one organisation of the government, only 25-30% are found fit and in other almost 100%.

Anonymous said...

I think "Indian Army officer a group B officer" is a troll, planted to make demoralising comments. If he doesnt even know that the Air Force has AIR MARSHALS and not GENERALS, he is obviously not a serviceman.

Why dont you bugger off, pal. Your attempts to bring disgrace to the service community are not taking.

Anonymous said...

I agree with anon above.
This Gp B stuff stands found out!

Rohit said...

The Chat box with your blog is getting full of useless talk. Though it is a nice arrangement for a psychologist, to allow people to speak/ converse and in this process, observe them. However, in this cacophony the purposeful discussion is drowned.
Going through the chat box, I've copied a set of 8 postings of a blogger, which I felt merit discussion and which will be more suitable here than in the Chat Box

@Frankly, with your permission!!

Frankly_I_give a damn: Guys, this is a serious blog and a very unique opportunity for us to discuss our feelings vis a vis the 6CPC and similar issues of concern to the armed forces

Frankly_I_give a damn: Since this is a open blog we may have incidents of impersonation and provocative talk by you know who. So avoid responding to these useless post as it wastes space and ultimately Navdeep may close it.

Frankly_I_give a damn: Further, keep united and avoid discussing the internal shortcomings of one arm/ service or other. I have a question for all to ponder.

Frankly_I_give a damn: Let's Know/ find out who is/ was Flt Lt Anubhav Rao?

Frankly_I_give a damn: Some of you may recollect that a young Fighter Pilot was murdered by a lawyer at Kasauli in Apr 08sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14648351 .

Frankly_I_give a damn: Now I am from the Army and do not know this youngster but was it not incumbant upon us to keep a track of what happened to his murderer. Just imagine the ruckus if a lawyer even gets manhandled.

Frankly_I_give a damn: by the police. That is unity. Not that we come together for PB-4 and then revert to mudslinging based on your entry/ school/ region / corps/ and regt/ bn.

Frankly_I_give a damn: Similar is the unity among students, the IAS and even the IDSE. That is where the govt listens and press reports promptly

Frankly_I_give a damn: Now, lets cut the loose talk and try to find out ways and means to stay united. Flt Lt Anubhav Rao's case is not isolated, but it caught my eye and so I mention the departed officer as a focal point

Frankly_I_give a damn:, Officers at or close to Chandimandir are requested to find out the progress on the case and keep us all posted. Similar cases may be known to you from across the country. These cases may be put here.

Frankly_I_give a damn: We can visit the police stn, use RTI etc and expedite the cases where our people are harassed. Remember Jessica Lal? Her case came into prominance after the modelling fraternity highlighted it.

Frankly_I_give a damn: These people also have busy schedules but when it came to their own, they were together. You don't have to form any association/ union for this, do you?

Frankly_I_give a damn: The PM, RM, FM, HM all will be rushing here and there and shooing us till we are not together. I’ve seen this chat spot now becoming a forum of despondency and resignation. Guys, chins up for a long haul.

Frankly_I_give a damn: Once again, as I started, maintain the dignity of this chat spot. There is none other like this ;)


I genuinely wonder, what is the progress of the Flt Lt's Case. Navdeep?

Anonymous said...

In case of the murdered Flt Lt - Shivraj Patil might state "the law will take its course" like it is taking its course in the Aarushi, Rizwaan, et al cases. WE, the people, will read any one or all of the following (1) the accused are absconding and the CBI (yes that omnipotent investigative agency) cannot find them (Todi is an example) or (2)the case records have been lost (Aarushi case) or (3) the Govt is yet to approve prosecution (cases of many IAS/IPS officers of Jt Secy and equivalents)where Lok Ayuktas have established prima facie cases.

There is the case of retired Major Dhanapalan who pursued his case upto the Supreme Court and won - on pay and rank pay.

Serving officers, I think, need permission of their respective HQ to file a court case. In this case of pay anomalies it might be a class action. Maybe some lawyer would be better qualified to advise.

If a CAT can and does give a Stay Orders in cases of IAS and other officers for percieved unfair orders, maybe the newly constituted Armed Force Tribunal is the first step. I am not sure but some legal luminaries amongst retired Armed Forces would be able to advise.

Could the lawyer who took up Air Marshal H Massand case and won be approached?

Let us give it a shot - we have nothing to lose except the rest of the arrears being delayed

PK said...

I agree with anonymous November 2, 2008 7:29 AM

Anonymous said...

Pay Row
Now, MoD lets down armed forces
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service
New Delhi, November 1
Even as a high-level committee comprising three Cabinet ministers is examining the four “core issues” that the armed forces have raised after the Sixth Pay Commission report was released, a fresh controversy has erupted. The ministry of defence (MoD) and the forces are at loggerheads again over salary related issues that have cropped up in the past one week.
It all started on October 20 when the MoD’s special instructions to implement the pay commission reached the forces.
To their dismay, the forces have now found some anomalies in the special instructions that were not there in the Sixth Pay Commission report approved by the Cabinet and notified by the government. Angered at being “short-changed”, the chief of personnel officers committee (COPOC) of the three forces has shot a letter to the MoD asking it to remove seven aberrations that include the dilution of the provisions of the pay commission as approved by the Cabinet and in some cases restore the deleted portions. These are separate from the four core issues being examined by the ministerial committee headed by Pranab Mukherjee.
The adjutant general at present heads the COPOC that also comprises the personnel officers of the Air force and the Navy. Out of the many serious anomalies, the key ones are: the dilution of the definition of the military service pay; the subversion of the definition of rank pay and the fixing of the initial pay scale for Colonels and Brigadiers at a level that is lower than what is due.
The foremost issue is of the rank pay that will result in a lesser hike in wages of all officers. The adjutant general has pointed out that the Fourth Pay Commission onward the rank pay is counted part of the basic pay. This is the government policy to club the two increases, thus affecting the quantum of house rent allowance, travelling allowance and DA. Under new orders, the MoD has delinked the rank pay from the basic pay. Hence, effectively reducing the HRA, travelling allowances and DA for each officer.
In case of the military service pay (MSP), the Sixth Pay Commission explains it as “?compensation for difficulties specific to military life”. The MoD in its latest orders to implement the pay commission report refers it to as a type of hardship allowance to “security forces” in forward areas. The personnel officers have questioned as to why the definition of the MSP has not been adopted from the pay commission itself.
Furthermore, on the MSP, the pay commission says that “in case of employees drawing the same grade pay, the priority (for status) should be on the total emoluments, including non-practising allowance for doctors and the MSP for forces”.
The personnel chiefs have pointed out that the MoD has said the MSP shall not be linked to status and rank.
The initial pay fixation for Colonels and Brigadiers was to be done as per scale “S-25” of the pay commission. Under the new instructions, the Colonels and Brigadiers have been given scale “S-24” that is applicable to a grade that is lower in the civil ranks. This means the initial pay of a Colonel will be reduced by Rs 1,300 while a Brigadier will lose Rs 3,000.

Anonymous said...

Why The MSP is Not being included for Fixation of Pay in the new pay scale as contained in the Notification and SAI ??

CPC recommendation says (2.3.12):
"It will however be considered for the purpose of Fixation of Pay and Pension"

The Notification says (Item 2 Annx 1) "It will however be considered for the purpose of Fixation of Pay and Pension (Para 2.3.12)

SAI says "It will also be considered for Fixation of Pay and pension wef 1.1.08"

Now could some one tell me what that means. To be taken into account for fixation of Pay would mean that Pay plus MSP would be taken into account for initial fixation of Pay in the revised Pay band ??

Or does it only mean that it would be taken notionally into account for fixation of Pay of Maj gens and above?? MoD is implementing this part what about the other parts ?

It also means that for all purposes such as HRA, TA, DA etc it will be part of Pay.

Since this MSP is now being termed as the erstwhile edge over the civilian employees, where is the edge in terms of status??

Parallel Induction.

The entire focus or Philosophy of the 6th Pay Commission was on parallel induction of Armed forces personnel into CPO which they unnecessarily started calling CPMFs without any reason. The focus was to establish Parity between the Army and CPOs to facilitate smooth induction.

All premises of that exercise has no meaning as the Govt has not approved parallel induction. Hence, unnecessarily degrading and equating the Armed Forces to the status of CPO is uncalled for. Even if approved, that will not be complete till the next CPC. Are the premises then worth it.

In my view, unless the entire structure of CPO right from DG downward is changed this exercise will have no meaning. The change should start from DG downward for correct and easy assimilation and not soldier upward. IAS should find equivalent slots in Ministries for IPS. Then only the entire transformation of CPOs into PMF should start.

It is leadership which matters. Otherwise soldiers are the same. Unless the leadership changes from top downward, it will result in Policisation of trained military manpower. Look at Assam Rifles if you may.. only parellel induction of officers will achieve desired results...

What is the Aim?? Policisation of Military or militarization of CPOs?

Things are so clear my dear IAS / IPS, sirs....

Ulti ganga mat bahawo...It is specialised job...lkie Army can not do Police Job so is true for Police doing Army Job...

This exercise should have been undertaken after having taken approval of the Cabinet...Idea appers to be good but implementaion ideas as reflected in CPC report are not workable... Their repercussions have ben bad for Armed Forces without achieving any thing...

Kindly set things right....

rajesh said...

Just thought this is apt in our lives

I put my carry-on in the luggage compartment and sat down

in my assigned seat. It was going to be a long flight.

'I'm glad I have a good book to read. Perhaps I

will get a short nap,' I thought.

Just before take-off, a line of soldiers came down the

aisle and filled all the vacant seats, totally surrounding

me. I decided to start a conversation. 'Where are

you headed?' I asked the soldier seated nearest to me.

' Chicago - to Great Lakes Base. We'll be there

for two weeks for special training, and then we're being

deployed to Iraq '.

After flying for about an hour, an announcement was made

that sack lunches were available for five dollars. It

would be several hours before we reached Chicago, and I

quickly decided a lunch would help pass the time.

As I reached for my wallet, I overheard soldier ask his

buddy if he planned to buy lunch. 'No, that seems like

a lot of money for just a sack lunch. Probably

wouldn't be worth five bucks. I'll wait till we

get to Chicago.... 'His friend agreed.

I looked around at the other soldiers. None were buying

lunch. I walked to the back of the plane and handed the

flight attendant a fifty dollar bill. 'Take a lunch to

all those soldiers.' She grabbed my arms and squeezed

tightly. Her eyes wet with tears, she thanked

me. 'My son was a soldier in Iraq ; it's almost

like you are doing it for him.'

Picking up ten sacks, she headed up the aisle to where the

soldiers were seated. She stopped at my seat and asked,

'Which do you like best - beef or chicken?'

'Chicken,' I replied, wondering why she asked.

She turned and went to the front of plane, returnin g a

minute later with a dinner plate from first class.

'This is your thanks.'

After we finished eating, I went again to the back of the

plane, heading for the rest room. A man stopped me.

'I saw what you did. I want to be part of it. Here,

take this.' He handed me twenty-five dollars.

Soon after I returned to my seat, I saw the Flight Captain

coming down the aisle, looking at the aisle numbers as he

walked, I hoped he was not looking for me, but noticed he

was looking at the numbers only on my side of the plane.

When he got to my row he stopped, smiled, held out his hand,

an said, 'I want to shake your hand.'

Quickly unfastening my seatbelt I stood and took the

Captain's hand. With a booming voice he said, 'I

was a soldier and I was a military pilot. Once, someone

bought me a lunch. It was an act of kindness I never

forgot.' I was embarrassed when applause was heard

from all of the passengers.

Later I walked to the front of the plane so I could stretch

my legs. A man who was seated about six rows in front of

me reached out his hand, wanting to shake mine. He left

another twenty-five dollars in my palm.

When we landed in Chicago I gathered my belongings and

started to deplane. Waiting just inside the airplane door

was a man who stopped me, put something in my shirt pocket,

turned, and walked away without saying a word. Another

twenty-five dollars!

Upon entering the terminal, I saw the soldiers gathering

for their trip to the base. I walked over to them and

handed them seventy-five dollars. 'It will take you

some time to reach the base. It will be about time for a

sandwich. God Bless You.'

Ten young men left that flight feeling the love and respect

of their fellow travelers. As I walked briskly to my car,

I whispered a prayer for their safe return. These soldiers

were giving their all for our country. I could only give

them a couple of meals.

It seemed so little...

Anonymous said...

a wonderful story and very inspiring
but remember while we all pray for and aspire for and seek to be worthy of the nations love and respect, we are not asking for free bees here in this struggle for equal recognition restoration of the same feeling of love and respect.

i am sure, if this indeed prevails in this nation (as it most certainy does)we shall be restored our rightful place in the scheme of things


Ajith said...

If you promise love and respect, then we are ready to forgo that meal happily.

Raj said...

Dear Navdeep Sir,
Could please send me the link for the notification regarding travel entitlements...The chaps at our unit are saying no authority is there for air travel for junior officers...Can you clarify whether the recommendations for air travel has been notified as your post says...the Govt Resolution on Armed forces does not mention anything from MoD site...nor does any of the notifications u have posted...Cud u please post copy of any authority letter...which can used...Im on transfer and it wud be of gr8 help.

Anonymous said...

@ all,
guys, i dont know about army, af, but npo has said that " status quo would apply for all ltc/off duty" as per scpc.
The interpretation (as per npo) is that all those who were eligible to travel by air prior scpc, only would be able to travel by air now also.
This is till the time new NI is issued post instructions from MoD
I know this is shocking, sad, but true

Anonymous said...

Dear friends,
The fact remains that unless the veterans are a political force the politician won't look at you. Even though we are not sizeable nos in many constituencies we can form volunteer groups who can campaign for any party which looks after the interests of the Forces. This has pros&cons and immense possibilities.The idea needs to be developed further.

Anonymous said...

dear Raj
All Group A officers above Grade pay 5400 are now entiteled for air trevel on Toure/Transefer/LTC as per notification for civilian gezetted officers.
Same shall be notified for services also

rajesh said...

NPO must have told u like that coz notification from MOD has not yet been received..U can claim that only after notification id issued and copy received by CDA..

Anonymous said...

I dont know about all this whining and carping and despondency! Youre SOLDIERS goddamn you. If you cant put up a fight without weeping like babies, dont join up.

Does the IAS scare you? Is that why youre crying? How dare you? YOure the sword arm of this nation. Stop crying, wipe the blubb off your faces, and carry on the fight!

Enough "WAAH, the IAS isnt giving us our due"! Who are they to give you your due? It is the politicans you must convince. Do so. With all convenient speed. And without sounding like steam engine whistles, weeping all the way! Pull yourselves together! Youre INDIAS SOLDIERS!

Anonymous said...

Dear Ano@November 2, 2008 10:52 PM
Your bravado is fine and 'we have to brace up for a long haul' etc etc are the comments seen very often on this blog. But for heavens sake, how do we take up this fight? As someone wrote earlier, the moment you open your mouth, form 10 will be promptly filled and you will be spending time in the psycho ward of nearest MH or facing a GCM. The only voice we have is through our chiefs and they have their own constraints, though hats off to the present ones. In this scenario,when one after another ignominy is heaped by the bureaucrats, who seem to be doubly determined to put us down, we are left with no other option but vent our frustrations through this blog. However, this in any way does not dilute our resolve to reject this injustice but how does this elephantine indian state, at large, understand that its soldiers are unhappy with the deliberate attempts of the ruling class at belittling their status. Even resorting to non-performance is not in our blood and resigning is not easy. So what do you exactly mean by saying that we continue fighting? I am constantly looking for ideas in this regard.

Anonymous said...

Is not it confusing that CDA has credited salary but is not in a position to show us the details? Well they must have worked it out some way and calculated. the same thing could have been shown on website. More over it seems it is the offrs of IDAS and their babus who are the stumbling blocks for the interpretation that gives least benefits to the Forces.

Anonymous said...

Correction in above , stumbling block and interpretation

Anonymous said...

@anony 8.58pm
One state that can do the trick is Punjab. With so many Veterans there it should be possible to get a few seats in Parliament. We all know the power of even 4\5 group of MP's in todays coalition times. Sure is food for thought for ESM groups.

Anonymous said...

It seems we have compromised on our lower pay scale and degraded status.

Bloggers are also loosing interest with no one having any clue on what is happening on the issue of anomalies.

Trick played by certain set of smart people to force armed forces to accept pay with anomalies had worked in their favour.

I don't seen any light in the tunnel.May have to take premature retirment at lower status and less pension for better avenues.

Govt needs to change its policies and should start the basic of lt. from pb2 and make our cadre officially a class II service. Intake would accordingly be from secod layer and left out people of first layer i.e. class I.

So that people of next generation are not fooled and demoralized like us. Infact these second rated officers would lead the troops better than first rated demoralized officers. Thus national security is not compromised.


Phaedrus said...

Maj navdeep pl dont distort facts. No one is going to be ifluced by ur childish interpretations. MOD deserves full kudos for delinking rank pay from basic.

Anonymous said...

Who called you here sunny to open your mouth and spoil the environment?
Appears to be a bhagte huye angrej da putra.

Anonymous said...

Express News Service
Posted: Nov 03, 2008 at 0516 hrs IST

Mohali, November 02 The Punjab government, on Sunday, urged Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh to immediately intervene to resolve the pay issue of defence personnel in view of the recommendations of the Sixth Pay Commission, which had generated much anguish among the serving and retired personnel of the country’s Armed Forces.

Addressing an impressive gathering of ex-servicemen from five districts of the state in Mohali, Punjab Minister for Defence Services Welfare, Capt Kanwaljit Singh, announced to amend the present law provisions for the speedy disposal of land disputes involving ex-servicemen.

Capt Kanwaljit said soldiers of the Armed Forces were fighting on double fronts as India was facing internal and external threat, but their morale had come down drastically after the recommendations by the pay panel, removing the equality the armed personnel shared with their civil counterparts. “Soldiers fighting at tough battlefields are being discriminated against by the panel and so far the Centre has failed to resolve the issue,” the minister said, adding that the widespread anguish and despair in the armed forces was an alarming bell for the country.

He appealed the Prime Minister to immediately take up the matter, which he (Capt Kanwaljit) had earlier taken up with the Defence Minister.

Capt Kanwaljit said the SAD-BJP government in the state was taking care of the needs of the ex-servicemen and was committed to ensuring their well-being.

Recollecting that people from Punjab have always remained on the forefront of sacrificing for the country, the minister said to promote this trend and help the children of ex-servicemen, the Punjab government has opened four training institutes. These centres provide free training for preparatory exams of different fields, including NDA and others.

The minister said that the state government has decided to amend the policy regarding the provision of facilities to the families of the pre-1999 war heroes.

He said that Army was facing the enemy at home-front that was stronger than the external aggression and accordingly families of those soldiers who had been declared war casualty by the Ministry of Defence would get the benefit of this policy.

“We have instructed the deputy commissioners and senior superintendents of police in the state to give proper honour to the ex-servicemen,” he said, while warning that that any officials found guilty in the matter would be dealt with sternly.

Capt Kanwaljit urged for the institution of a federation, involving the groups of ex-servicemen, to take on a common goal of the welfare of ex-servicemen. A meeting of all groups would be convened in this regard, added Kanwaljit.

The Minister also gave away an appointment letter to the widow of a war hero besides distributing cheques of Rs 5 lakh each to 16 families of slain soldiers.

Ajith said...

Here is a report as appeared in
'The Band of Brothers' blog.

SCPC — Defence ministry shortchanges the defence services : 02 Nov 08
November 2, 2008 by VK
A lot of hopes of the defence officers have been pinned on the GoM and its recommendations. A wave of disappointment went through the military circles when the PM didn’t announce the decision of the GoM over the pay anomalies of the defence services during his address to the Combined Commanders Conference on 01 November 2008. However, the mandarins at the defence ministry continue with their scheming designs to shortchange the defence service officers with seven more anomalies inserted while notifying the Cabinet recommendations on the Pay Commission. The Tribune reports on the despicable machinations of the civil bureaucracy at the defence ministry.
Out of the many serious anomalies, the key ones are: the dilution of the definition of the military service pay; the subversion of the definition of rank pay and the fixing of the initial pay scale for Colonels and Brigadiers at a level that is lower than what is due.
The foremost issue is of the rank pay that will result in a lesser hike in wages of all officers. The adjutant general has pointed out that the Fourth Pay Commission onward the rank pay is counted part of the basic pay. This is the government policy to club the two increases, thus affecting the quantum of house rent allowance, travelling allowance and DA. Under new orders, the MoD has delinked the rank pay from the basic pay. Hence, effectively reducing the HRA, travelling allowances and DA for each officer.
In case of the military service pay (MSP), the Sixth Pay Commission explains it as “?compensation for difficulties specific to military life”. The MoD in its latest orders to implement the pay commission report refers it to as a type of hardship allowance to “security forces” in forward areas. The personnel officers have questioned as to why the definition of the MSP has not been adopted from the pay commission itself.
Furthermore, on the MSP, the pay commission says that “in case of employees drawing the same grade pay, the priority (for status) should be on the total emoluments, including non-practising allowance for doctors and the MSP for forces”.
The personnel chiefs have pointed out that the MoD has said the MSP shall not be linked to status and rank.
The initial pay fixation for Colonels and Brigadiers was to be done as per scale “S-25” of the pay commission. Under the new instructions, the Colonels and Brigadiers have been given scale “S-24” that is applicable to a grade that is lower in the civil ranks. This means the initial pay of a Colonel will be reduced by Rs 1,300 while a Brigadier will lose Rs 3,000.
These seven aberrations are separate from the four core anomalies being addressed by the GoM. It would be much better if the GoM actually redefined the controlling mechanism of the defence services, away from the clutches of the civilian bureaucrats at the defence ministry. Else, this targeting of the defence services and its officers by the civilian bureaucrats is likely to become a regular feature. The government needs to awaken and sensitise itself towards this pressing requirement to preserve the status and izzat of the Indian military before it is too late

Anonymous said...

I have an idea it may not be acceptable to all. Keep all officers in pb2 a few ('brig oowards') may move to pb3. All the three chiefs may be given starting of pb4. Lower down the existing ssb selection standards. On the similar lines all the jawans may be kept in pb1 and a few exceptional may move to pb2. Similarly lower the selection standards of jawans.

Thereafter raise the strength of armed forces 2 -3 times both in officers and PBORs cadre. This would solve the problem of exceedingly long working hours of armed forces during peace. Also advantage would be that in war u have more no. of fighting force.

The initial intake there after would be coming accordingily and would be extremely happy and motivated with exsting perks of armed forces.

After all the job of armed forces is same as the job of security guards of various establishments. At least as seen by outsiders.

However only one point i would like to make that let the existing cadre retire with izzat and status. Govt must move them ahead of civilian counter parts or atleast maintain the status quo. Let the existing forces fade away peacefully and honourably.

Anonymous said...

When a person joined armed forces, he/she knew or at least could have known with little effort, all about pay, perks and promotion. Further, no invitation was sent to anyone to join. All joined on own accord. If unhappy,the system does provide for redressal. One may submit an application, ROG, seek premature exit, write DO letter to President, Prime minister, Defence Minister, The Chiefs or even approach courts or tribunal for justice. Wasting time in irresponsible gossip is not right, amounts to wasting precious time and leads to polluting minds of oneself and others.If one is convinced of some wrong, then one should use the redressal mechanism provided in law and stop criticism in any forum. Every person who respects law of the land and uses the provisions of same law to correct its flaws is undoubtedly a true patriot. Criticising IAS, IPS or any other service is un-patriotic and doesn't reflect maturity.Criticisms are like homing pigeons and will definitely return.The above is with very high regards to all contributors to the blogg. Hope it is received in right manner. Thanks and best wishes.

Anonymous said...

To all Ex-service personnel:-
Respected veterans, please start your own Rashtriya Sainik Party and field candidates from areas like Pune, Dehradun, Delhi cantt, Secunderabad, Bangalore etc where most of you have settled along side other educated and mature people. You will sure shot win 10 to 15 MPs and that will be a vital no. in next Lok Sabha.Then get vital ministries like finance and defence and all problems will be gone forever!!!

Anonymous said...

In some ways Defence establishment is accountable for their present condition.Peaple out side think the job of defence force is only like security guards out side. Just see how the men r treated , the qualified peaple who service Presidents and Prime ministers Boeing A/c are given PB i pay scale when their couter parts out side get pay in 6 figures.

Anonymous said...

Time for mil intel and DIA to start preparing info on all the buggers who are doing all this. And then, the leaks begin.

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous 6.57

Please do not give moral lecture. U mean to say youngster joining at the age of 18 -21 is aware of promotional prospects, perks avenues etc.

I would say 'no'. At least, not 10 years back. He may be aware in todays info & it revolution.

The youngster of 10 years back and before that were only aware of initial basic pay which was more than other govt jobs. Additionally they were attracted by uniform. To that extent they have found themself cheated.

Please do not misguide youngsters for writing do letter to president/ prime minister and chiefs etc. Nothing would take place. His unit commander would ensure that form 10 is raised and he is in Psychiatric ward of MH.

You are arguing that no body has invited any officer for this job. Everybody has come on its own accord. Let me tell u. In this country no one gets invitation for any govt job. The only person who was ever offerd a govt job in recent years, i remember, was sam pitroda and that too on the invitation of then prime minister rajeev gandhi, 20 years back. If u heard of any one else also, please let me know. It will not only improve my gk others would also be benefitted.

It is a forum for a few to at least vent out their feelings. I am sure if u r already commanding or else get a chance to command u would like to take away this prviledge of an officer also.

Even mother don't have time to feed if the child do not cry.

Anonymous 6.07 is absolutely correct. Just because of people like u who can only give moral lectures. We r being treated like the security guards.

No body is questioning supermacy of IAS, IFS and IPS. It is when other gp A service of comparable standards including left over of armed forces i.e. Para military had moved in to higher pay bands and grade pay, the protest came. This has even understood by chiefs who have brought this to the notice of top most political leadership and u r trying to tell youngsters to write their representation to them on service channels.

Please don' feel affended. It only shows that guys like u would never understand the problems in totality.

Anonymous 6.07 wanted to convey that if govt feels that in present scenario other jobs have taken precedence over armed forces job. They can lower its status and pay for future generations. At least the status quo in respect of status and pay be maintained for current and past generations.

Jaihind and best wishes.

Anonymous said...

Im most certainly questioning the "supremacy" of the IAS IPS and IFS.

Its time we consigned such notions to the dustbin. If a gang of tree huggers, and a service whose highest rank used to be equal to colonel are considered more important than this nations armed forces, its time to bid this nation goodbye.

Ajith said...

This what 'The Economic Times' have reported on 02 Nov.

NEW DELHI: As the Pranab Mukherjee-led ministerial committee is grappling with armed forces' pay-related grievances, the three Services have now taken
a fresh controversy to A K Antony's doors over "issues created" by Defence Ministry bureaucrats.

The Defence Ministry's special instructions on the 6th Central Pay Commission notification, the Services say, have "back-stabbed" the armed forces personnel by introducing seven fresh "anomalies" last week.
The "anomalies" include re-defining of the military service
pay and rank pay, which actually subverted the purpose for which the pay commission had recommended it in the first place, sources in the Services' headquarters said here today.

"The Services headquarters approached Defence Minister Antony against the mischief and back-stabbing in the special instructions issued by the ministry officials and have sought removal of these provisions. The new anomalies are different from the four core issues that we raised earlier," sources said.

"The changes in the definition and meaning of key pay commission recommendations have been done on the sly to deal a blow to the armed forces' morale and to deny them their due," they alleged.

The special instructions, issued by the Defence Ministry on the pay commission notification, was received by the armed forces on October 20.


Anonymous said...

Guys, some 'insider info'. Beleive at your peril. Picked from Gconnect shoutbox.Read from down upwards.

sk palit we may profess confidence in this information, its its up to u to take it or leave it, all this has been "insider" information
• GC The pity of this 6PC is that it has created a tug of war between the ARMED FORCES & IAS. Any one agree?
• sk palit and there could be many a slip between the proverbial cup and the lip
• sk palit one noting on the file can change/delay the whole process
• sk palit still we all have to wait for announcement.
• defpen any news for K V Teachers at least by Childrens'day
• sk palit delay helped these busy members to understand ur problems
• sk palit however this is past now. ur getting waht u demanded
• sk palit delay helped these busy members to understand ur problems
• sk palit however this is past now. ur getting waht u demanded
• sk palit draw back of non availabilty of rep from armed forces presenting data to gom
• sk palit the whole problem is the manipulation of data to present the gom a rosy picture of armed force and convincing them their demand is un reasonable
• sk palit one more problem is there of including rank pay in basic pay for deciding grade pay. in that case the grade pay of cols and brigs corresponding increse is taking them in to even higher scales than what is demande by armed forces.
• sk palit the filtering of advice and misformation to the decision makers was fed by small time fuctionaries at MoD, mostly it is from lower ranking civilian officers of mod especially mod finance
• GConnecter beggars can't be choosers
• sk palit people at the level of decision making have understood but they are not able to finalize on the pensioners.
• sk palit the existing anomalies would be removed shortly as no study is required to be carried out on this
• GConnecter today govt may announce pb4 for all group Aofficer with 12 years of service like any IAS officer
• sk palit there is a quite a bit of opposition primrily due to a few individuals in decision making. but u guys would in pb4 by week end.
• guest can any body give any concrete news abt PB-4, what is the hitch, when it is going to be announced

Anonymous said...

Dear defence officers, please checkback your data on which u are fighting. It is all more wrong less correct. Unless u ask for right thing u will either not get it or will be full of guilt feeling. i have known many army officers saying we donot know why such a large ration scales have been given for one man. That was also done in similar circumstaces. We all better be fair. Those who are left as corrupt civilians after all the talent of this country joins Defence forces as per the bloggers here, are many a time your sons and daughters. God bless u all.

Rohit said...

Interesting!! Veterans to be asked to launch a political party.!!

Consider this-

Aim- Bring the armed forces back to their rightful place in society.

Time available- about 6 months.

11 Lakh serving Army Personnel. (Add for Navy and AF)-
Each contributes @Rs 1000/- for Jawans and a higher amount for officers.

We have @Rs 200 Crore in the kitty.

Decide on 40-50 LS Seats, where sizable serving/ veteran population.

Spend Rs 4 to 5 Cr on each constituency.
In addn- We have motivated and capable personnel for the leg work and canvassing. Help poor people build their lives in your free time, clean up the civic areas etc etc.

We may win almost all seats we contest.

Who to be fielded- A lady wife of a young upcoming officer, preferably with army background who understands the ethos of the army/navy/AF.

Only if you think that the armed forces have not been hit below the belt in the recent fiasco.

Anonymous said...

Dear ano@2:15 PM
On one hand you say that the talent comes into armed forces and if you believe even a little bit of this statement yourself then please grant us a little wisdom to understand the facts/data and especially the facts which harm us and benefit you.
And you are right in saying that our children themselves may become civilians.
I can assure you that we are not going to allow our children to commit the folly that we did and they certainly are going to stand in your ranks as civilians.
We will welcome your children with open arms to join the armed forces so that they can enjoy the freebies like free rations etc etc.
I am proud to be serving a nation whose great citizens like you think so highly of me. What more could we expect from you.
Jai Hind.

Anonymous said...

If you check the latest notification of 11th NOV on pcdapension.nic.in you find a mention that military service pay to be added for pension for pre-2006 pensioners but the table providing the ready reckoner doesn't take that into consideration.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,
If you read the para 5 on page 4 of the 11th NOV notification on the pcdapension.nic.in website it does seem like the Military service pay will be added for calculating pension & this notification is only for pre-2006 pensioners.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep
Your blog is informative, thanks.May I request for details of progress on post 2006 retired offrs.Any difference in pension for Col(TS)&Selection grade?
Col(Retd)Gopal Sharan

Anonymous said...

Any thing politician will do is for votes, Babu will make himself strong. What is in a soldiers fate? A BULLET. So who is going to fight for us? a bullet! use this bullet to kill our enemy(politician and babus) and not to get killed. kill these politicians and scare these babus with that bullet and fix your own pay and pensions, nothing is going to happen with what you are doing. Laton ke bhoot baton se nahin manenge.

Anonymous said...

Navdeep has shown by those comparision tables ,how the pensions of veterans who succesfully fought wars of 1947,1962 1965,1971 and KARGIL conflict-that has given glory to DEFENCE FORCES and present peace& prosperity to the country has been lowered to 50 -70% of legitimately eligible pension.
Now it is for everybody to intensify their efferots by diverse approaches&methods to derive their legitimate dues. It is their RIGHT. Therefore bash on regardless.

reddyabg said...

SCPC-parity was lost.disparity was introduced.
Therefore continue the efforts of struggle and fighting to derive your rightful and legitimate pay/pension.
All SM & ESM ( service men & women) should be united and intensify the movement by diverse approaches and methods.
Such as:-1.presentations& reprasentations
3 . Express dis-satisfaction &unhappiess
4.Less co-operation and even non-cooperatuon.
5.Seek voluntery retirement for reasons of disparity and denial of legitemate &rightful parity as per terms &conditions of service (prospectus). Violation of terms of agreement/contract is involved by GOI. You can derive legitimate dues through courts af
ter retirement and keep pursuing some other job/work,thus free from bonded labour and subject of ARMY ACT (applied subjectively)
6.Agitations,satyagragha,... etc with coverage by press/media
7.Exercise political pressure through the weapon of vote.1.5mi sm, 3mil esm x family members +their relatives &wellwishers is aconsiderable force if organised/co-ordinated.
7.Keep interraction on inter net and with public on these issues.
8.Intensify a sort of non-cooperative movement in all spheres and activities.
9.Strikes/gheraos whereever possible
10.Always formup groups/assciations to give greater effect.
11.Also file cases through organised associations/groups to derive legitimate dues from GOI
12.The public disapproval of wrong approachs/policies of GOI are already evident with those defficiencies in officer cadre.
Afterall the so called GOI is not of few self-seeking individuals/political gp who have manipulated their positions into those slots.What matters is THE NATION-the will of the NATION .The govt of the people by the people and for the people.
OUR PATRIOTISM,OUR RESPONSIBILITIES TO THE NATION AS VETERNS,SENIOR CITIZENS AND SERVING SOLDIERS REMAINS PARAMONT ALWAYS .We cannot remain passive people to the on going subversion of NATIONAL SECURITY by self-seeking individuals in bureaucracy and political parties with their incompetence and lack of vision.
NAVDEEP has contributed a lot in our effort to derive parity. Let us utilise this effort by concentrating on agreed points of views rather wasting our effort in irrevalent points of views.

Anonymous said...

The present state of inadequacies and serious defficiancies in officer cadre (Leaders who lead men in battles) is due to down gradation and degradion of defence service officers consistently since 1986 (4thcpc). Those officers who struggled and sacrificed a lot through frequent wars of 1947,1962,1965 and1971 have been down graded by two stages. These war veterns have been receiving only 6o% of their legitimate eligible pensions.They defended the country from external threats and aggressions-ensured peace and prosperity to the NATION ;and glory to the institution of DEFENCE FORCES.In return they were given misery of degradion .

latika said...

One Lakh for Parity: Thank you Mr. Prime Minister,
The "extant parity" of Army Lieutenant Colonels and their equivalents in the Navy and Air Force, be raised to similarly placed civilians and paramilitary officers in Pay Band-4 (Rs 37,400-67,000), regardless of their com
- Equal Grade pay be awarded to officers from Captains to Brigadiers, matching that of their civilian counterparts.
- Place Lieutenant Generals and their equivalents in the Higher Administrative Grade Plus Pay Band.
Please add your voice and sign this petition to revise the 6th Pay Commission. We will present this to Honorable Defense Minister on March 30th
Jai Hind