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Wednesday, October 1, 2008

No differences between the Armed Forces and the Govt, may release addl Rs 6000 crores : Raksha Mantri

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In a welcome statement, the Defence Minister has categorically clarified that there are no differences between the services and the Govt. This follows an earlier statement by the Army Chief to the same effect. Mr Antony has also added that the govt is ready to fortify the forces with Rs 6000 crores over and above of what the PayCom had recommended.

This should also now put all those rumours of fissures between the highest echelons to rest now that it has come from the horse’s mouth. This is also particularly reassuring since it shows that the Minister is ready to go along with the services on the genuine issues concerning the 6th CPC. The reports of differences between the Minster and the Naval Chief also seemed to be a bit strange and unbelievable since the Minister had never disagreed with the points raised by the services relating to the anomalies in the implementation of the pay commission.
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Post facto note : The reference to the additional Rs 6000 crores in all probability deals with the additional funds required (over and above the PayCom report) after the Cabinet approval. It does not refer to the amount that may be required to tackle the anomalies. Sorry for the confusion !


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21 comments:

namakool_2000 said...

All's well that ends well !

And now, will somebody take the pains to get all of us educated about our voting rights (the mechanism involved) and its strict implementation ......... for obvious reasons !!!

Pragmatic said...

Navdeep:

The statement as you say it is slightly wrong. Mr. Antony talks about 6000 crore as the additional expenditure incurred due to earlier recommendations of the cabinet - in effect, an argument put forward by the finance ministry. It says--

Pointing out that the government had taken a decision in the Cabinet to implement the pay commission report after amendments, Antony said the additional burden on the exchequer due to the changes in the approved CPC is Rs 6,000 crore.

Anonymous said...

CNN-IBN is making too much out of it.They are portraying it as a "rebellion" or "Wining of the Battle" and Government "giving in". Mr Thapar is saying Army forces Govt for increase in Pay.

Who the hell ever asked for "Increase"?? What was asked for was "parity". How is that Thar reading it as increase. The footage also showed the ex servicemen in the poor light and RRM making a statement in derogatory manner was unfortunate.

The need of the hour is damage control and not damage escalation. The IAS lobby and Politician must understand dipterous consequences of the politicization of the issue.

I request friends here also to raise demands as genuine requirement and not to pay any attention to "politicization". Armed forces remain thoroughly committed and apolitical force.

Yes, one must exercise the voting rights definitely and also encourage everyone to do it.

It was very unfortunately...No one has won....Yes "Babus of MOD may have been caught Cheating" as always..

They have definetely lost confidence of the Armed Forces..if there was some remaining in doubting minds....

Anonymous said...

There IBN-CNN report published below is however an unbised report:

'http://www.ibnlive.com/news/govt-bends-armed-forces-win-fight-for-fair-salaries/74774-3.html"

ontrary to what Thapar Ji was potraying with a "Purchi" written by Defence Secretary in hands...

Please do not mind Thaparji...Just a Joke....

Thanks for the report...(If You happen to read it)

Anonymous said...

@ pragmatic, 5.29
after a long time finally you have managed to get atleast one thing right.

Anonymous said...

to all of you……..
First things first policy we inherited from britishers…………
divide and rule……
secondly let us not forget the elections next year who is candidate for the PM in congress & how does one shows that he is not weak…. and not controlled by beaurocrats.
Is Rahul going to be the PM no.. he said it in punjab.
then who is the PM is he stong….. if yes how do you prove it.
do you all get it is all politics.
if you kill somebody it is a murder and if you kill somebody at the right time then it is politics..
hope you all get it.

Anonymous said...

Mr Pragmatic who so ever you are, you definitely have some pakistani effort in your creation. Just cross check with your mom!!!

Anonymous said...

@anno 11.09pm.
well said,but why not say so on his blog so that you are sure that he has seen it.

Rajax said...

Don't say it on his blog. Mr Prags is finally coming to our blog. Het his blog die and stink. Some of his lackeys are also coming here.

Navdeep, could you pls delete their posts unless they have a point. If they have a point, they are most welcome.

@ all

1. Stop visiting Mr Pragmatic's Blog.
2. Try not to be rude about our senior officers. After all how many would know about the Pay Commission and where the issues stand without the internet and such blogs. The Senior Officers thought that the IAS counterparts were honourable. Our generation knows better.
3. No comparision with MES etc. We compare ourselves with the IAS (5th P C saw equivalence with IPS as per the script). The guys in MES / DRDO etc don't realise that only the Armed Forces can stand up to the IAS babus and they will benefit in the long run.
4. The IPS guys were not happy either, had a meeting and were given the equivalence. We do not have such public meetings. We do not need it. Remain apolitical.
5. The mischief was not Justice Srikrishna's. It happened afterwards when our demands such as 7600 Gde Pay for Lt cols was met - except that they bumped up the pays of S-24 and S-25 guys to PB-4 and increased their Gde Pays considerably from 7600 to 8700 hence destabilising the equation. All on some Babus recommendation.
6. IAS Officers head most civil organisations and hence will cause problems and misinform them(divide and rule) even if it means screwing the guys they were leading.
7. Have faith. The IAS guys have screwed up so badly this time that they will have to buckle.
8. Identify yourself if you want to be taken seriously. Comment on anonymous posts only if they have any value.

Anonymous said...

@ Rajak
Why do you want comments deleted? Let us know the enemy and his depraved way of plotting. After all, ISI and it's supporters have to be countered and dealt with in a way they so richly deserve.

Ajith said...

The headline of CNN-IBN report says
" Govt bends, armed forces win fight for fair salaries".
I fail to understand how it becomes bending by the Govt when they acceed to a fair demand of its Forces.It takes courage and boldness rather, to correct the mistake thrust on it by the bureaucracy.
About Karan Thapar's reporting, he should be naive to have readily believed what the bureaucracy has told him. It was never the extra money for which the Forces fought. It was for restoration of parity, retrieval of status, honour and diginity. If only he can suggest an alternative to that.
About Raksha Mantris statement. He knows it better than anybody else. There was no difference ever with the political leadership in the Govt. Mr Antony has always been sympathetic to the fair demands of the Forces. The difference was only with the bureaucracy which was perpetrating the worst possible exploitation on the defence Forces.

s rastogi said...

RAW DEAL TO MEDICAL DOCTORS OF ARMED FORCES MEDICAL SERVICES:-MED DOCTORS IN CHS AND CGHS HAVE BEEN GRANTED DYNAMIC ACP SCHEME EXTENDED UPTO SENIOR ADMINSTRATIVE GRADE(GRADE PAY OF RS10000 IN PB-4)FOR THOSE HAVING 20YEARS OF REGULAR SERVICE. ALSO ALL MED DOCTORS IN ORGANISED SERVICES OR HOLDING ISOLATED POSTS ARE COVERED BY DACP.(PARA 12 OFMINISTRY OF FINANCE,DEPT OF EXPENDITURE RESOLUTION NO1/1/2008-IC DATED 29AUG2008) MED DOCTORS OF AFMS CAN ONLY REACH THE RANK OF 'LT COL' IN 20 YRS SERVICE WHICH IS IN PB-3 WITH GRADE PAY OF RS7600 ONLY AS PER THE RECCOMENDATIONS OF THE 6TH PAY COMMISSION.MED DOCTORS OF THE DEFENCE FORCES WORK UNDER SEVERE CONDITIONS OF SAICHEN GLACIER , HIGH ALTITUDE LOCATIONS,CI OPERATIONS ETC AS COMPARED TO THE CIVILIAN COUNTERPARTS.THIS HAS LED TO A SEVERE LOWERING OF MORALE IN THE MILITARY DOCTORS AND MOST ARE PLANNING TO LEAVE FOR THE WELL PAID PRIVATE SECTOR.THIS GROSS ANOMALY CAN BE CROSSCHECKED BY YOUR SUPPORT STAFF AND BE PUT UP TO THE COMMITTEE OF MINISTERS GOM,. S RASTOGI

Indranil said...

About Med Offr of AMC.
They become Lt Col at 11 yrs of service.

However, after they remain a Lt Col for....... (donkey's years).

To get a substantive rank of Col, u have to slog (= unprofessional work). Rastogi has come with some correct facts.

Best is to give a golden handshake for the majority who do not make it. dont equate them to the bonded labourers of Bihar.

Anonymous said...

we somehow cant trust these politicians till it comes in black and white

Anonymous said...

Have the Lt Cols been put in payband 4 as proposed?

Anonymous said...

sir
can you please put on net link/ text of approved AVSCII report
Has it got as in original report about timescale rank to col in 22 and brigadier in 26 years
so that every one atleast retires with pension of BRIGADIER as our IAS BABU DO

Anonymous said...

Flaws in traditional comparison behind lowering status
Vijay Mohan
Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, October 1
As the status of Lieutenant-Colonel and Lieutenant-General vis-à-vis their civilian counterparts continues to hang fire, it appears that incorrect representation of past scales under comparative tables in the Sixth Pay Commission’s report may be responsible for degradation of status and pay of officers.

Sources reveal that the pay panel in its report had formulated a historical tabulation of scales of military and civil officers in which the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel has been shown against the junior administrative grade (JAG) instead of the non-functional selection grade (NFSG) of the civil services.

The pay of a Lt-Col was shown as Rs 1700-900 while that of the NFSG was shown as Rs 2000-2250 under the table for the 3rd pay panel. Experts, however, say that there were three NFSG grades in the 3rd pay panel, out of which only the highest one has been “conveniently” reproduced in the table. The two other NFSG grades were Rs 1650-1800 and Rs 1800-2000 and the Lt-Col’s grade was placed between them.

Both these grades were shifted to Rs 14,300-18,300 by the 5th pay commission, while Lt-Col was granted Rs 15,100-18,700. The sixth pay panel, however, placed Lt-Col along with JAG in the band of Rs 15,600-39,100 instead of NFSG (Rs 37,400-67,000) in which the erstwhile closest counterparts of Lt-Col were shifted.

Another anomaly reflected in the tables relates to the rank of Captain, which in turn had a cascading effect on higher ranks, sources said. While the rank of a Captain has been shown against senior time scale (STS) in the 3rd pay panel tables, it has been shown against junior time scale (JTS) bunched with Lieutenant under the FPC tables. Experts point out that there was no recommendation of down gradation of Captain from STS level by the fourth or the fifth pay panels, and the same is a self-created equation by the sixth pay panel with no official back-up.

The non-addition of rank pay into basic pay of service officers for equivalence purposes is also refuted by some experts. Maj Navdeep Singh, author of a book on military benefits, says that rank pay was carved out of basic pay by the first pay panel and it had recommended the same integrated scale of Rs 2,300-5,100 for 2nd-Lieutenant to Brigadier, with rank pay as the differentiating factor.

To say that rank pay is not to be added for status would mean that all ranks from up to Brigadier enjoy the same status. A group of officers set up by the government after the 5th pay commission had recommended that an Army officer in his 14th year of service should have parity with an NFSG officer of the civil services. Several retired officers also point out that special army instructions issued by the ministry of defence clarify that rank pay is a part of basic pay for all purposes.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the eq as given in earlier WOP. I have come across a British Govt Notification in year 1967 signed by the then Viceroy of India in the name of Queen . The document is so fragile and unreadable that it can ‘nt be scanned properly, however I have tried to put it on web site, visit http://eqdebate.com/eq/1967/GOI/appendix/1256
While we are demanding eq the same should be asked for all the ranks and let the civilians understand their parity completely. They should understand that all civilian ranks emanated from the Army Estt only as there was no civil administration before the advent of Britishers. Pre Britishers era there was only Military and Military rule. It was only in British Raj that some of the Govt functions were given to civil set up . How a child i.e. civilian hierarchy can grow bigger than the parents i.e. Army. So let us not forget to bring in complete justification , by bringing in the entire rank structure for correction

Sepoy LDC
Lance Naik UDC
Naik Asstt
Hav Office Suptd
Nb Sub Section Officer( Gp B)
Sub Tehsildar( Gp B)
Sub Maj Deputy Collector of Revenue ( Senior Gp B)
Lieut - JTS
Capt - Under Secy to GoI
Maj- Dy Secy
Lt Col - NFSG (Dir GoI)
Col-DIG/Conservator
Brig-no civ equivlanent
Maj Gen- JS GoI
Lt Gen-Addl Secy GoI
Lt Gen (Army Cdr) - Secy GoI
Gen-Cabinet Secy

mittal said...

sir
can you please put on net link/ text of approved AVSCII report
Has it got as in original report about timescale rank to col in 22 and brigadier in 26 years
so that every one atleast retires with pension of BRIGADIER as our IAS BABU DO

Anonymous said...

More chances for lieut-cols to get next rank
Vijay Mohan
Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, June 23
Lieutenant-Colonels in the Army would get more chances for selection to the next rank of Colonel if the move to implement the recommendations of the A.V. Singh Committee comes through. While opening greater opportunities for promotion, this could also check disillusionment among middle rank officers, which tends to creeps in on stagnation.

The committee had recommended that all officers be promoted to the rank of colonels. Presently, the rank of lieutenant-colonel is the limit for officers who, for various reasons, are unable to make the grade. The report is currently being reviewed by the Defence Ministry, which had reportedly sought some details from Army Headquarters on this matter recently.

According to a communique received by Headquarters, Western Command, from Army Headquarters earlier this month, it has been recommended that lieutenant-colonels be given a change to appear before selection boards after every two years, till they complete 26 years of service. This is for the first time that details of the proposal, which is associated with the A.V. Singh Committee report, have been circulated to formations in writing.

Under current promotion policy, lieutenant- colonels get three chances to make the grade for promotion to colonel. If the officer fails the first time, he can appear before the subsequent "review" board. If he fails again, he gets a third and final chance to appear before a special board. Thereafter his fate is fixed and there is no further chance of promotion. Lieutenant-colonels become eligible for appearing for selection boards on completion of 18 years of service, though this may vary from arms to arms.

Given the Army's pyramidal hierarchy, majority of the officers superannuate at the rank of lieutenant-colonel. There is also intense competition among officers to move up the hierarchical ladder.

Under the new proposal, after the first two chances, lieutenant- colonels will be allowed to appear before a selection board after every two years. Sources said that 70 per cent weightage would be given to points awarded in the officer's annual confidential reports (ACRs) pertaining to the two-year period immediately preceding the board. ACRs pertaining to earlier service would get 30 per cent weightage.

According to a senior officer, this move would open up more promotional avenues for lieutenant-colonels. It has often been felt that at times some lieutenant- colonels who fail to make the grade, often become disillusioned and tend to lose interest in their service. This move would also help to check this tendency. There have been instances where good officers, for various reasons, have been superceded.

Anonymous said...

Are u not part of MES, Are u not drawing Tech Graduation allowance , while attending parties and doing engg graduation at govt expenses, are u not drawing post graduation allowance while doing PG at govt expenses, while your civilian counterparts after doing Graduation, post graduation on self expenses does not get a penny, theese allowances are above and in addition to many more other allowances, is it not the same wk same pay rule shall be applied in MES for Civilians and Army, is it not that a Civilian also get posted to inaccessible ,terrain, terrorist infested areas also without any allowances/ perks with no medical facilities at remote places, is it not true that while u are in hospital , it is called sick in quarters and treated as on official duty while civilian counterparts have to get the leave sanctioned.. Are u not craving for MES apptt. If it is not so , then why are u sticking to MES. Is it not that all superseded frustrated officers are posted in MES to make it more non functional. How many of u excelled technically in MES. Are u not denying the deserving respect to MES/BRO officers. U talk about equivalence, is it not true that in Sena Bhawan , Ministry of Defence your Brig gets orange color pass , which is for all class I officers up to the status of Principal Director, while Civilian Chief Engineers get Green Pass which is meant for Jt Secy level officers. Are U not subjecting a Civilian Chief Engineer in MES , BRO etc to report to junior Maj Gen , thus flouting all Govt Instructions.
Why not all your Brigs Throw their passes of Orange color , which are issued by a Colonel in Sena Bhawan , who knows all about your so called parity. Will u come out with your pay perks allowances of Lt Col working in Sena Bhawan and civilan Jt Dir. Please come out with details if u have a slightest sense of humiliation and truth left in u. Please come out . This is an open challenge, Refute and throw your orange color cards which is below the parity level u are asking for.
Is it not true that in Leh ( Army) the gross irregularity in Diesel/ kerosene with big scam was probed by CBI, is it not true that ration/ winter clothing / packed food issued to Army Jawans in Leh found being sold in Leh Market. Is it not true that u hire porters to carry load of jawans in sensitive areas.