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Tuesday, October 14, 2008

All Organised Group-A Services (not including the Armed Forces) to have parity in pay progression with the IAS

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As we all know, there is wide disparity in promotions between the IAS and other Group-A services after the level of the Non-Functional Selection Grade (NFSG)/Selection Grade (SG). While almost all services reach the NFSG/SG level (Rs 37400-67000 with a Grade Pay of Rs 8700) after 13 years of service, progression beyond that to Senior Administrative Grade (SAG) and above is heavily tilted in favour of the IAS. In view to eliminate this disparity, the 6th CPC in Paragraph 3.3.12 on Page 174 had recommended the following :

This is not justified as organised Group A services have to be given their due which justifiably should mean that the disparity, as far as appointment to various grades in Centre are concerned, should not exceed two years between IAS and organised Central Group A services. The Government should, accordingly, consider batch-wise parity while empanelling and/or posting at Centre between respective batches of IAS and other organised Group A services with the gap being restricted to two years. Whenever any IAS officer of a particular batch is posted in the Centre to a particular grade carrying a specific grade pay in pay bands PB-3 or PB-4 , grant of higher pay scale on non-functional basis to the officers belonging to batches of organised Group A services that are senior by two years or more should be given by the Government. The higher non-functional grade so given to the officers of organised Group A services will be personal to them and will not depend on the number of vacancies in that grade. These officers will continue in their existing posts and will get substantial posting in the higher grade that they are holding on non-functional basis only after vacancies arise in that grade. This will not only ensure some sort of modified parity between IAS and other Central Group A services but will also alleviate the present level of disparity existing between promotional avenues available to different organised Group A services.

Hence the 6th CPC had recommended progression into higher grades for all other services of the same batch with a restricted gap of 2 years. So if an IAS officer is empanelled as Joint Secretary in 19 years of service at the Centre, all other Organised Group-A services (including technical services) shall enter the Joint Secretary’s grade in 21 years. The progression shall be on a non-functional basis which means that they shall continue to be posted on their actual respective posts but would receive the pay, grade pay, perks and facilities of the higher grade. As explained in an earlier post, all Joint Secretaries GoI are Senior Administrative Grade (SAG) officers but all SAG officers are not Joint Secretaries to GoI. While it takes around 19 years for an IAS officer in the SAG to be empanelled as a Joint Secretary to Govt of India at the Centre, the same officer is promoted to SAG in 16 years while in his/her own cadre. Till the time a SAG officer (Grade Pay 10000) is not empanelled as a Joint Secretary to Govt of India, he/she holds the post of Director to Govt of India (Grade Pay 8700) when posted to the Centre though he/she may have held the SAG in his/her own State/UT with a Grade Pay of 10000.

The recommended pay progression parity for other services has now been accepted and implemented by the Govt.

The newly promulgated Indian Police Service (Pay) Amendment Rules, 2008 contain the following note under Rule 3 :-

“Note 3: Whenever any Indian Administrative Service officer of the State or Joint Cadre is posted at the Centre to a particular grade carrying a specific grade pay in pay band 3 or pay band 4, the members of Service, who are senior to such Indian Administrative Service officer by two years or more and have not so far been promoted to that particular grade, shall be appointed to the same grade on non -functional basis from the date of posting of the Indian Administrative Service officer in that particular grade.”

The newly promulgated Indian Forest Service (Pay) Second Amendment Rules, 2008 also contain the above stipulation.

Also according to new rules, the following is the promotional criterion for All India services officers :-

1. Promotion to Senior Time Scale (Pay Band-3 / Grade Pay 6600) : 4 years for all

2. Promotion to Junior Administrative Grade (Pay Band-3 / Grade Pay 7600) : 9 years for all

3. Promotion to Selection Grade (Pay Band-4 / Grade Pay 8700) : 13 years for all

4. Promotion to DIG in the IPS and Conservator in IFS (Pay Band-4 / Grade Pay 8900) : 14 years. This grade does not exist in the IAS

5. Promotion to Senior Administrative Grade (Pay Band-4 / Grade Pay 10000) : 16 years for IAS, 18 years for IPS and IFS

All service rules are available on www.persmin.nic.in

The Pay problems of the Defence Services can also be addressed if the same pay progression criterion is adopted for them too. And provided there is a will to do so, there is no reason why this cannot happen. Functional grade pay can be granted till the rank of Lt Col in 13th year of service and after that non-functional grade pay can be released linked with the progression of other Group-A services. The manpower pool is the same (graduation is the minimum qualification for all Defence and Civil Services), the recruiting agency is the same (UPSC) and all are Group-A central govt employees and hence in my humble opinion, pay progression should also ideally be implemented universally. In fact since the Pay Commission had recommended similar pay bands for all including the uniformed services, then the pay / career progression formula should also have been the same. If put into practice for the defence services, this would not only reduce discontentment but also meet the requirement of the spirit of Article 14 of the Constitution of India.

What do you think ?

Mark my words, this would ultimately happen. Perhaps in the 7th CPC, but it would !


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50 comments:

Anonymous said...

I 100% agree with you Navdeep. In fact all along I have been saying that our demand should be one liner: Just give us whatever you are giving an IAS at those many years of service and leave the Rank structure as internal matter of any service.The bitterness among the IAS clan is tremendous coz they think we are getting special perks, this is evident from FM statement when he proudly says that defence pers will take home fatter pay packets.So every time we ask for somthing special like Rank pay or MSP, they downgrade us further. This time around let this be sorted out once for all and IAS may be given whatever edge over other services but DEFINITELY NOT over Defence Forces.

Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeep,

Thanks for this articulation.

I have been crying horse about it. In my comments as a reply to the "civilian Officer", I had analyzed these but in the form of the "four Increments".

That four increment rule and Pay progression are directly linked to the amount of Gratuity at the time of retirement and also the fixation of Pension.

Well done Navdeep , shall be the first one to go to the High court to protect my Fundamental Right of "Equality" if the Organization does not set the anomaly right and makes it applicable for all.

6th CPC is thoroughly rigged by IAS. Look at the cheeks of Mr Gupta type Journalist who accused the tree Chiefs of thinking that Mammon Sing is weak.

In fact it is the IAS who not only played on that premise but also thoroughly mislead Manmohan Singh and the Cabinet. thorough out subversion of the "Committee of Secretary" system of decision making and thorough subversion of the Cabinet too.

No wonder these IAS fellows claim themselves to the "Permanent Executive". How much is the IAS Association contributing to Congress Fund..?????

Will any sane person in this Country please answer who is governing this Country and "for whom the Bell tolls?"

Anonymous said...

In my opinion this recommendation, for all Gp A services, which has been accepted by the government (please refer the govt notification for civilians)is more important than the ones Armed Forces have taken up now. for the reason best known to some wise men, they have not taken up this issue despite being told about it. this issue and the revision of commutation tables are the issues left by services though they are hugely important and were easier to be accepted by the government. though commutation table are common for Armed Forces and the civilians, the revised tables harm soldiers particularly PBOR more because they retire earlier. i believe orders have been issued placing Lt Col in PB 3.

Anonymous said...

Lt Col in PB-3...??

Hold your Horses...the Govt had decided to accept them in PB-4 and can not and should not go back on that...

Tha nno above may be taliking of the Norifications which the Cabinet Secy is keen to issue based on earlier Cabinet Decision without awating for New orders...


They are playing Generals now. They never play such Genarls in issueing order for the grant of allowances etc to the Armed Forces personnel which they usually get after six months or one year and that too after a lot of haggling and file pushing with thousands of ifs and buts...

Now they are in extreme hurry only to prove and exhibit their powers...

Sometimes It feels suffocating as if these guys and strngling the Armed Forces...

Never mind wait and watch with patience..

Anonymous said...

@anony 9.22am
Relax, buddy. We are already in PB-3, so no orders are required for that. Orders will be to place us in PB-4, after Cabinet clears it in Thursday.

Penmil said...

Maj.Navdeep,
You have hit the nail on its head when you said today in your blog, Quote "The Pay problems of

the Defence Services can also be addressed if the same pay progression criterion is adopted for

them too. And provided there is a will to do so, there is no reason why this cannot happen
"Unquote.
The Flag Officer 'Bee Cee' too said the same thing in his Geuest Post on 26Sep08.Quote
"In fact I do not know of any situation where Services have been at a disadvantage if the same logic

is applied across the board.I think Services walked into a trap with the 'we are different' argument"
Unquote.
Except where special add on pays are needed specific to a function peculiar to a Service such as the Flying Pay,the Submarine Pay and other pays of that kind ,the advantages of going along with AIS/ Central Civil Services will far out weigh the perceived advantages of separate pay scales and career progressions for the services.Experience shows that higher pay at a later part of the service is much more beneficial than a marginal higher start and stagnation later on till the cows come home.

But the services were always different.There were branches within branches and accepting the same carreer progression to all was just unthinkable.

Now even career progression and pay scales of the Para Military Forces are made unreachable to the Services.

As you observed there has to be a will not to be different.

Anonymous said...

@Maj Navdeep
Great
that the plain n simple thing we must demand and strive for
parity and that just cant be refused
there should be job specific allowances as are available to cetral govt servants elsewhere
but we must not get evena penny less than IAS

Anonymous said...

@ Maj Navdeep
good post
we must get same and there should be compansatory retirement allowance/ assured absorption to compensate for loss of early retirement

Royalty said...

Thks Navdeep and good to c ur pic.

Ur blog is enlightening but the facts posted by u only make us feel more miserable.I mean knowing all this what can we do to protect our rights ?? It was better being ignorant ,atleast we were happy. Today we can only get frustrated and bash people on blogs. we are getting abusive,aggressive coz we can not anything more than that.We cannt protest , we can say 'hell with this JOB .. I quit"" pls dont enlighten us further it makes us sad.We r in a situation where we have the weapon in the hand(u have given it)..We were always physically and mentally strong, But We cannt retaliate though we r being kicked ,hualed and beaten up by all.

Dont give us a weapon..We cannt fight or rather we are allowed to.let us live and take the shame thinking "if i had a weapon i would..."If u can then FIGHT for us .same applies to all our well wishers .. FIGHT FOR US.

Anonymous said...

Awareness of the fact that men in uniform have been sidelined by the bureucrats, sends a painful sensation down the spine, realizing that the people supposed to look after our interests, are bent upon humiliating and dowgrading us.
I totally agree with royalty 1025h. NAVDEEP, FIGHT FOR US.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep, Do not mind my differing a bit in approach shown by Army officers in this matter. Firstly, one has to be honest in approach. Secondly, the facts should be shown as they are. On both counts the demands fail though there is merit partly. The Lt Gen deserves the better deal but it can not be justified that all should be at same level as Senior most DGP in a state. Perhaps 10-20% of Lt Gen discharging/to be assigned higher responibilities should be given HAG+. There is no merit in asking for all. In case of Lt Col let me tell you, and you can check 1924 service rules the Lt Col were given selection scale in 25 years. It is official and available to gov. You may not unaware. The Dir/SE at that time were made in 14 years. The seniority of Army officer with 6 years service was euated with 1 day service of Class I officer, you may verify that with your freinds in SOI. You must accept fact that NDA entry was 1oth pass when IAS was graduation. Even now the difference in entry qualifiaction is very high.Both being graduate donot make them equal. An Army engineer gets degree while drawing pay and seniority and an UPSC engineer enters with qualification plus 1-2 years experince or PG, an edge equal to 5-6 years. You cannot equate two.Perhaps you should have asked for making the Lt Col post selection again and specifying 18 years service for going to PB4. You are also forgettng/hiding that when LT Col were equal to Dy Secy neither Col post was there in line nor Dir. It was a post in certain arms only where promotioms to Brig were few. You are surely aware that quality of degree at CME is equal to what?. You should ask for what is due. Secondly, you are forgetting that the perks etc of army ensures that you saves 1t least 1005 more than civil staff. Thirdly no where in GOI an VIII/Xth pass recruited as Jawan is promoted up to the level of COL/BRIG. Army has to do lot of cleaning inside before standing up staright. May I also draw the officers attention to large no of such Army personnel who do not even a day training in a year, ACR entries are made without firing a shot in ASC, MEDICAL, BRO, MES, DRDO etc and Army brass accepts it right upto top. Your case for difficult service falls flat in the eye of the very brother of soldier who is in village and in the eye of the brother of the Army officer who is in say IT MNC/police and spends 14 hours on job, on war always. You may ignore it as most army brothers are known to have no ears or take it in right earnest. Choice is all yours. We as citizens are watching all the action be it of Guards or of Guardians of Democracy.THANKS

Anonymous said...

The feeding of wrong information is demralising the officers. Please don ot do such a bad service to your own self. With thanks.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous 10.44am. Group B services like DANIPS are promoted to GP A in 4 years. Don't say Armed Forces are rightly equated with GP 'A' in 6 years. what u mean without saying is Commissioned Officers are lower than Group B service. if so it is even more enlightening and shocking

Anonymous said...

@navadeep

will there be 7th pay commission idoubt, with no recruitment to civil services or minimal recruitment to ALL India SERVICES.RECRUITMENT IS there in ARMED FORCES ONLY.

Anonymous said...

"whispwersincorridors" has grapevine that Navy chief will resign and Army senirs were be taken to the task?

Someone has really gone mad?? Can they demoralise the Armed Foces tio such an exent??

Moreover in this charged atmosphere?? God know what kind of situation these IAS officers will crate to assusge their Egos??

Can more than 17000 pepole resign??

If not probably they will quitely say good buy..

Or one might have to bribe an MoD Babu to go out...as happened earlier.....

Kidhar Fas gaye....Age Kuwan Peechhe Kahayi...?????

Koi Hai????.........

Anonymous said...

the web site refreed to says:

"Will Government take action against Army Chief ?

Government is reportedly contemplating disciplinary action against senior army officials who have gone to the press in violation of the cabinet decision pertaining to the Sixth Pay Commission.

Will Navy official quit to join politics ?

Rumour mill says that a top Navy official who has openly spoken against the Cabinet decision may quit service to join the BJP .Guess the name."

The Question is; Is not this an ispired Media Propaganda??

Who woll be taken to task for it??

Cab Secy to please fix responsibity or resign??

Yogesh said...

So much malice towards IAS & Gp A service officers, and that too from Gentlemen officers.
Good luck & God bless you

Anonymous said...

@Yogesh Ji

There is no malice here . What is stated is fact or prove it is not...

Pointing at grave injustice is not malice it is every ones right. Had there been malice, you would not have ruled the roost. It appears things will have to snatched from you IAS as you are bent upon resorting to the filthiest of means to "bring down" the morale of the soldiers. You have acted inimical to the Armed Forces and the Armed Forces have just realized it.

you sack Generals or soldiers, the lose of confidence is complete. Eyes of the Armed Forces Officers are ajar in disbelief and at the realization how you all have robbed the Armed Forces. How our FM tells a lie that Armed Forces have been treated Farely.

There are tears in many eyes for reason more than that due to the realization how contemptuously you think of them. The loss of self esteem and self prestige and honor of the Armed Forces will be very costly to you all and the Nation.

Award yourself medals for successfully destroying the last bastion of your freedom.

We do not need your good wishes and Luck. You all need that now. Forget about the Government decision. We all are clear about it by now. It can never be just and equitable as history proves.

The dawning realization how badly the Armed Forces Officers have been cheated by you all will rob the military commanders off the moral grounds to lead their officers and men into battle which they fight to keep you safe.

Soon and I can see, very soon, you might have to outsources Defense of India so that you could make faster bucks in the Contracts. That is what you all are worth. I as a citizen will remain in servitude like my ancestors for another ten centuries. You shall only change masters.

That is my agony. You all do not want to pay Honor and respect to soldiers, let me see Ranbir Sena or Yadav Sena or Bajrang Dal defending your Honor. When they defend the Honor they stop at nothing sort of being the master. That is the cost of defense on has pay if soldiers are miserably brought at the present levels.

My good wishes and luck to you.

Anonymous said...

@ Yogesh
Yes are absolutely right, GOD only blesses those who are Truthful and the whole nation knows who is Truthful

Anonymous said...

if govt is discriminating against armed forces by paying them less then other services. in that case can we resign are commission saying inadequate pay and growth prospects in 10th year of service its self. or we still have to serve for 20 years. I hardly want to serve the country anymore as i think there is no point staying in fauj with harly any izzat left

Anonymous said...

@ annony...10:45..

the sheer fact that u think MES ,BRO AND DRDO SHOULD BE DOING TRAINING ( FIRING ) confirms that you have inadequate/no knowledge about armed forces...

friend they r not armed forces...

will catch with the subject later ...currently in a hurry

Anonymous said...

To whom So Ever It Concerns

Why Armed Forces Officers Needs to be Paid Better

. Firstly, the educational qualifications for all class A services is at par.

* Secondly the recruiting Agency is also the same.

* Thirdly, the number of chances and years for the preparation for entry are almost one third as compared to other Services and entries.

* Selection is purely based on merit, No reservations are applicable and vastly superior, psychological physical and medical criteria are applied for selection.

* He is taken very young / young resulting in loss of the youthfulness and beautiful enjoyable young age which others enjoy and this man is denied while defending others. He is made a man of steel and made to discharge duties of Defense when others of his age are enjoying with their girl friends in South Campus or JNU.

* No other services mandatorily undergoes that amount of training and hardships in training as he does for professionalism and national cause. For him his being graduate is not good enough. For an IAS, just being a graduate is very good.

* His "Conditions of Service" are not comparable for any Class A Services. he is subjected to separation, denial of rights, facilities, civil amenities and put under stressful conditions through out.

* He is made to retire 15 years earlier than others. Retiring at a very crucial and demanding age is his biggest drawback which is the organisational requirement but he is not Compensated for it. The Lemon is sucked and peel thrown off.


Compare these with the other Class A "Deshbhaktas" sitting in MoD who enter late by gate crashing, mounted on the crutches of Reservations and four years of coaching etc.

Within 13 years he agin gate crashes and paid better than 24 years service Colonel.

Again he gatecashes and paid better than 34 years Service Major General at his 16 years of service.

It pains me to say, this kind of thing can only happen in "Andher Nagri" where Gold is chaper than Iron as ordered by the King. This below canons of any justice.

The Present Kings in the form of Shri Manmohan and P Chidambaram, the Honorable FM and Ministry of Finance babus along with Cab Secy Can only accept that kind of blind justice along with the favored Class a services. For Armed Forces, the Deewali is getting darker and more darker.

Do not pay the soldier more if you can not but do not pay him less too. If all other Class a services are linked in Pay progression why did you leave out the Armed Forces. It seems you have declared then a thing of non-utility.

If you left them that way you have no right now to say that director will be equivalent to Lt Col. Comparison and equivalence is established on similarity and for people linked in pay under similar conditions.

The only similarities left between Class A officers and Armed Forces officer now is the number of years of service. The Pay similarities and linkage has been robbed off the Armed Forces by other class A services.

Pay band and the pay scales no longer are comparable. Hence stating that equivalence between Amed Forces and other Class A officers will be pay band and basic pay is unacceptable and unjustified.

If the government under Shri Manmohan and Shri Chidambaram can pay only AIS officers, IPS and PMF and not the Armed Forces, it is fine. It is their choice.

But the equivalence and the issue of seniority and being Junior be decided by their number of service irrespective the pay band and basic pay. That can not be denied.

Shri Chidamaram can do that much if he wants to save money. Both the advantages can not and should not be given to Class A employees at the exclusion of the Armed Forces and the four increments of IAS be withdrawn.

Or pay Armed Forces the same amount as IAS at the same number of service. hen pay band and basic pay can be the ceiteria for ditermining seniority.

Forget about ranks. ranks are for departmental functioning. Pay equal to all. All are doing their assigned Jobs.

Jai Hind.

Anonymous said...

@NAVADEEP
ARE we ready for a such a drastic change in promotion policy.MIND set of ehlons have to change for a
fast track promotion policy. OUR egos have to be kept apart, as we are still in era of ,when my turn comes why should I forgo the privilages or share the privilages.TO be more fair to civilians also ,all do not make it to the next grade , upto the level of JAG there is a filtaration of 10% to 15%. ABOVE THE LEVEL of JAG consistant record of very GOOD ,WHICH IS equvilant to our HIGH AVERAGE IS required.THE higher you go the filtaration rate increases. Except IN IAS/IPS ,MOST OF THE other services they are lucky if they reach SAG.WORST is the case of DOCTORS , 90% retire in nfsg only.FOR OFF LANDS ARE LUSH GREEN .LETS not compare with others ,let us take up issues which are good for the organisation.AS per the resolution of MOD it says GRADE pay has been modified as per defence services. WHO is contolling defence services !If babus are controlling defence services why notification has not been issued so far.

Col NR Kurup said...

Whatever may be the future, the recent episode has brought all the three services together. I consider this as the highest achievements. In such a united condition, the sky is the limit. You ask anything. You get it. WE have seen the Defence Minister and Finance Finister shooing away; but when they are united, the PM i\was forcedto interfere. We should not loose this ground under any cirumstances.

Anonymous said...

@ Col NR Kurup
I agree 100% with you, The Unity demonstrated is one of the biggest achievements !!

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Civilian officer

I think I know who you are :-)

and you are no civilian. You are as fauji as one can be ;-)

but I'll leave it at that

B P SINGH said...

Dear Navdeep let us not forget that LTCol of today command not more than 100-150 soldiers where as you are trying to quote his position as per WOP of 1902 or so,that time LTCol use to command 1000 soldiers.The rank which now command 1000 soldiers is correctly in PB4.Moreover LTCol is today doing job of a LT/Capt,thus he is rightly put in PB3 .Let us not forget host of other benifits available to Military officer such as 100%housing,free electricity,free tpt to schools, free food ,higher uniform allowance, CSD Canteen,Liq at low rate ,please ask your heart does LTCol of today deserve more than PB3,and you want to equate LTCol to Commandat of paramilitary forces who even now command 1000 soldiers be fair in thinking and let us equate the equals

Indian army officer? The group B officer. said...

@ BP singh

If you think your logic so strong just tell the govt to disband the rank of Lt Col and send all of them to home without any benefit.

after getting f*** for 25 years if 70 percent of army officers get into pb4 then the job of an army officer is worse then a class two employee.
if you do not understand this much kindly do'nt give any other logic.

Anonymous said...

Cabinet may take up Forces' pay issue on October 16
15 Oct 2008, 0226 hrs IST,TNN




NEW DELHI: The Union Cabinet on Thursday is likely to consider the resolution of the "anomalies" raised by the Armed Forces in their revised pay scales, after external affairs minister Pranab Mukherjee held fresh consultations with defence minister A K Antony and finance minister P Chidambaram on Tuesday.

Mukherjee is the head of the three-member ministerial committee set up by the PM to look into the entire matter after the Armed Forces delayed raising their new salary bills for October since they held that their extant parity with their civilian and paramilitary counterparts had been "destroyed".

Though some quarters in the government have tried to project as "defiance" the three Service chiefs' reluctance to implement the revised pay scales, many others feel they did not have any other option in wake of widespread discontent in their forces.

Aditya said...

Typical. The home ministry is encouraging the CPMF's to bid for parity with the army. Completely ignoring the fact that the CPMFs never had parity with the army, and are not even an organised group A service. Divide and rule. But the Service Chiefs are not going to tolerate this any further!


ToI reports:

CPOs, CPMFs throw in towel in Pay Commission bout

15 Oct 2008, 1046 hrs IST,PTI

NEW DELHI: After the three armed forces, it is now the turn of the central police organisations (CPOs) and paramilitary forces (CPMFs) to raise a pit
ch for "parity" in pay scales with their military counterparts.

With the government setting up a three-member ministerial committee headed by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee to consider the armed forces' plea, the CPOs too have decided to seek a political intervention to resolve issues concerning their pay scales.

The chiefs of ITBP, BSF, CRPF and SSB will meet Home Secretary Madhukar Gupta to submit a memorandum seeking a political decision on the lines of Mukherjee committee for inclusion of their "second-in-command" rank officers in Pay Band-4, if the tri-services' Lieutenant Colonels and equivalents are included in this pay bracket.

The Pay Band-4 for Lt Cols is among the four "core issues" raised by the Army, Navy and Air Force in the 6th Central Pay Commission (CPC) and that led to Services refusing to implement the CPC, a decision taken by the Cabinet in August this year.

"The Director Generals (DGs) of all the CPOs and CPMFs will present a memorandum to the Home Secretary this week. We will urge Home Minister Shivraj Patil to request his cabinet colleague, Pranab Mukherjee, to include 'Second-in-Command' ranks also in Pay Band-4," Home Ministry sources said.

Anonymous said...

Committee of Secretaries


One of the important system of arriving at a decision under the executive and for sorting out and coordinating contentious issue between Ministries is system of "Committee of Secretaries". That is fashioned after the system of " Parliamentary Committee". The Committee System reflects the idea of "collective responsibly" and arrival at a bargained consensus. Therefore, the decision is said to be in the best interests of all and the best solution available at that time. In order that it reflects those principles, it is comprised of all effected parties and members of different views like including Parties in Opposition. The system of "Committee of Secretaries" have been a failure and can not achieve the democratic results as all Secretary are from one party called "IAS". No impartial or just decision can ever be expected from this body as it violates all principles and ideas of "committee system" of decision making. They only produce an "IAS Smriti" and they are never a Committee. They are one and have their interest as supreme and capable of even sabotaging the will of the executive and voilate the Constitution. I do not understand that our executives and parliamentaerian are as naive not to understand that. This system under present circumstances and IAS prevalence in every ministry should not be resorted to and be done away with. Committee have to comprise of all effected parties and not "Only IAS". The recent example of the 6th CPC botch up by this body is an example. This is what leads to dictatorship and not "Army Dictatorship" canard, many irresponsibly talk about here and there. Democracy by "Committee of IAS Secretaries" is dictatorship as is evident to all.

So who is scuttling democracy in this Country and who has become a threat for Democrcry? IAS or the Armed Forces??

Anonymous said...

THIS ARTICLE FROM AN ARMY OFFICER"S DAUGHTER

Who let the politicians out?


by Vaishnavi Prasad



It's very simple. A military coup, that is. One collective word is all it needs to convert this nation from a democratic country to a progressive economy with martial law.

The armed forces will take over the nation, and no one can do a thing about it. Not the police force, not Manmohan Singh(=Sonia Gandhi), not A.K. Antony. No one. A movement will arise so suddenly and with the fury of a raging tsunami, that it will rewrite India's future, inject discipline in the blood of every Indian, unscrew unopened bottles of potential and terrorise the intestines out of those who dare to oppose them or irrigate the minds of others with vile thoughts. Corruption will be eliminated 90% and progress will double.. Indeed, the souls of our forefathers who fought for real freedom, will rest whole-heartily under this military control. Ironic, but true.

The question here is, why won't they do it?

Let me tell you what bothers me. I am the 19 year old daughter of a retired government servant, an army officer to be specific (note the 'Servant'.. absolutely true in case of the armed forces)

My father, who retired as a Colonel, is not a reciever of the PVSM, AVSM, VSM, or even the VC for that matter. He was a part of the army, served an ordinary Colonel's role, did not jump in front of a bullet to save his men, or plan an intelligent strategy to capture some enemy territory. He was a part of both major wars with Pakistan and China, returned without being a decorated war hero, served in regiments in both borders, saw extreme weather conditions and backward technology and most importantly, he enjoyed and took immense pride in doing all this and serving the nation.

Yet, I feel my father is a greater man than many 'greats' in this nation. Shahrukh Khan, or Pratibha Patil,to begin with:neither of them have sacrificed more than a sleepless night or compromised on their Saturday morning sleep for the nation.

I don't blame you for saying, 'Oh, she's an army officer's daughter, obviously that's why she's biased'. I don't deny it. It is true. I am biased. And I want every single person in this country, if not the world to be biased. I can only tell you what it is like to have seen these people up, close and personal, to have heard true incidents of bravery and selflessness and then know they're are being paid peanuts, to sacrifice their lives without hesitation for the nation.

When I was 16, my family took a holiday to Arunachal Pradesh, to the regiment where my father had been in command, more than 20 years ago. From a scenic , quaint little town called Tenga, on the banks of a gushing river, we travelled to a snow desert near the Chinese border called Bumla. Here, in the middle of nowhere, one could see a small board stuck in the ice reading 'Welcome to India'. For as far as our eyes could see in all four directions, there was nothing but snow. Beside that board stood a guard, probably of south Indian origin, in 6 layers of clothing, a giant wind-cheater and the heaviest pair of snow-boots imaginable, against constant rapid winds, endless lengths and immense depths of ice, pacing an abandoned minefield from the 1962 war, looking through a telescope at Chinese vantage points to track enemy positions and moves.

He didn't opt to be there, but when he chose the forces as a career he knew what he would be facing, and he faces it with valour, for he has the patriotism that you and I and many of our politicians lack. Tomorrow he may die in battle, but I know for sure, that no one who has joined the forces will ever regret taking up that profession. If he dies in an act of bravery, he will most probably be awarded a VC or PVC medal for the same, posthumously. Then the government might give his family a lump sum and/or a measly monthly stipend of Rs.850 to Rs.1500. I ask you, is that all this man's life is worth?

What about a serving soldier? He mostly hails from small areas or rural backgrounds with an uneducated wife and 2 children back in his village alone.Typical, but true. This man, who has time in the forward areas only to eat, sleep and watch the enemy, hardly sees his family. His entire salary is sent back home to his spouse, who faces the brunt of yet again uneducated parents-in-law ready to blame her for anything that happens to their son. In such a situation, a soldier's wife receiving the pitiful salary of her husband will be left an orphan in the middle of the road, simply for the lack of money.

Then, these war heroes, and martyrs are forgotten within minutes, no, wait, seconds of their death. No one forgets to come for the Republic Day parade ,or to place that wreath they didn't order on the grave of some memorial they don't know was built for what om Independence day. Just because it is protocol. Protocol to 'remember' (or forget?) these people on these 'days' meant for our nation, to 'remember' them for the 30 seconds it takes you to read patriotic forwards and messages in your in boxes on email and on your cellphone.

Like a 90-year old war veteran said, I guess it's the forces who are to be blamed. Right from the 3rd pay commission-who screwed up royally- the three forces have always put the pride of serving the nation over money. I guess it's their fault they didn't demand it then.

My father and I have been discussing this issue for a while now, and my blood boils, every single time I see our so-called Defence minister Mr.A.K.Antony defending his stupidity on a podium which he does not deserve. Have you for a minute stopped and thought about why you at home are able to enjoy your evening spent listening to your iPod, or watching a DVD on your 42-inch LCD? It is because you live in India, where the borders, threatened by invasion every second, are guarded constantly, by the watchful eyes of some 27-year old son of a mother who sits far away in a remote town, praying consciously every second for the safety of her son. If that guard decided to look away for even a minute, he would be dead, within seconds, and there would be an invasion leading to chaos everywhere. Soon, India would become a replicate Iraq, pandemonium prevailing,where you would need the permission of your invaders to even use the toilet, which under normal circumstances would be your birthright.

Sometimes it's scary, how something so simple and routine is linked to something so complex and out of hand. From all of you who saw these reports of the military's peaceful war against the government on television, some of you changed the channel since it didn't concern you, some saw the report and took it in as general knowledge, and some burnt rage over it for a few seconds. Those whose blood still boils, would be the ones who have actually some patriotism left in their blood.

Am I being too philosophical for a nineteen year old? Most of you might say yes, but I say, why not? You would too, if you saw the fire in the eyes of these people the way I do.

And what is it, with Mr.Antony's comment on discipline? I'm sorry Mr.Antony, but you politicians, who hit each other with chappals, and microphones, use unparliamentary language in the parliament, come half an hour late to a meeting, and do not know the words of the national anthem, are talking about discipline.Please, don't make me laugh.Or with the panel that is enquiring the pay commission having IAS officers in it!? Why don't we have a separate pay commission for the Military like most other countries do? Why do we have to put up with a cock-eyed system? Why does a DGP get paid almost twice as much as his equivalent in the forces? Why does the army have to replace the fire-brigade, police force and everyone else, when it is specifically mentioned that the forces are only for training during peace and attack during war. Why does the government involve the forces in flood relief , earthquake relief, tsunami relief, and more recently, rescuing of children fallen in pits? Then to put the cherry on the icing, you pay them in a pay scale adopted in 1948?

I have faced and will face a lot of criticism for my views.As some of my friends say, we do get good rations, accommodation and cheaper FMCGs and alcohol. Rations and accommodation -anyone in a decent government service gets that. Cheaper FMCGs- The least the government can do is to remove the taxes off the MRP of many products and make it available to the average soldier, who in return is willing to pay the price of his life for his nation. Cheap alcohol- yes, a bottle of rum is relatively cheaper. Why don't you spend one year of your life to replace a soldier in snowy altitudes, in nothing but a tent or in the blistering heat of the Thar with the only wind bringing sandstorms along with it or in the jungles of Nagaland with the leeches sucking your blood out and I'm sure ANY soldier you replace to give him precious time with his family will gladly give you all the rum he can ever get in his life, simply so you don't die of exhaustion and depression and actually live to tell your tale.Simply, so you can survive.

Let me remind you (non)patriotic souls, that the life of a person in the armed forces is one filled with dignity and pride, and I believe it should reflect in how much s/he is paid, for glamour and corruption rule the roost today, and that bias will take our country nowhere.

Hoping for the best to come for our brave men and women..

JAI HIND.

bill said...

The GOM headed by Mr Pranab M must address ALL the ISSUES (& not only Core issues)as it is now evident & there is substantial proof that Baboos have manipulated all issues with a clear Anti Armed Forces stance.Issues like MSP from 1.1.2006 with arrears,DA on MSP, OROP,Grade Pay of various trades of PBOR,Seperate Pay Commission for Armed Forces etc also need to be addsd by GOM.(AF HQ & ESM Orgs to be asked to give ALL issues)ALL relevent issues must be addsd in TOTALITY even if takes more time.
The mess created by Baboos has had serious adverse effects on Morale of all Armed Forces personal(with resultent effect on operational capabilities & National Security).The Baboos responsible for this must be punished.Considering the seriousness of the issue the GOM must investigate(if required thru CBI) the role of all Baboos associated in deliberate manipulations,misleadig ministers & disobeying/defying their instrs/orders & manipulating media against Armed Forces Chiefs.Cosidering tha massive advantages to our adversaries, linkages( could be Baboos cartel of Moles) to ISI etc should also be looked into.The Guilty MUST be identified & punished.

October 15, 2008 12:46 PM

Yogesh said...

When things are moving in normal channel, is there any need for so much sophistry and acrimony? Even without that, can it be not avoided? It will be wonderful if whole debate is with some emotional restraint and is in dignified way. We may hope so now!

loverboy said...

@ BP Singh. elsewhere on the blog i had written to a bsf officer that what is paramedic to a medic is what is paramilitary to military. does a paramedic ever compare himself with a medic? never, therefore where is the question of comparison between paramilitary and military. forget everything else PMFs are not even a recognised group A service. just because you have started wearing rank badges at your whims doesnt mean you start equating yourselves with military. other day i saw a bank guard wearing khaki with three stars, should he start equating himself with your asst. comdt. pl. dont demean the military by comparing with PMF.

rajesh pai said...

dear navdeep,

has any one wondered why the judiciary is not taking suo moto cognizance of this issue when it has been skewed and distorted by the IAS lobby? can you pass some info on this.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@BP Singh

Let me tell you that most unit commanders even today are Substantive Lt Cols who hold the rank of Acting Cols.

AN officer attains the pay and subs rank of Col after 20 years of service. So those Cols commanding Battalions with red collars are factually Lt Cols.

Anonymous said...

u r right navdeep sir...

and i tell u even many army people do not know this..what to talk about civil servents

B P SINGH said...

Dear Loverboy,
I would request you to put up facts and figures and not just faulty language.All ranks which CPMF officers wear are approved by the same Govt which had approved Military ranks.Come on dear Loverboy talk your knowledge and speak language of your name Loverboy. Agood words may win many hearts.
Dear Navdeep,
These officers who hold the command are acting Col ,agreed ,but they are Col and will be confirmed in the Col rank.Please also walk into www.indiancpmf.blogspot.com

Anonymous said...

@ dearest bp singh...

pl answer very simple questions..

1. who works under unified command of army?
2. r cpmf/cpo meant to face external enemy at their own?...
3.name the largest wpn u hold in cpo/cpmf..
4. how many training courses r conducted in ur organisation and what r their scope tactically and technically...
5. r u suppose to be wearing brass or white metal...which home ministry letter confirms to wearing of badges as worn by army and says that they mean the same?...
6. r u authorised a title like maj lt col etc before ur name?
7. who takes the command of situation when as usual u fail in ur job?

pl think...just think on these questions..i dont want answers...

pl face the reality..wearing combats doesnt make u fauji..i m sure the next issue army is going to take up now is not to allow anyone wearing what army wears..for ur kind information the case is there in the files of home ministry since 1968.when home minstry said that the army badges and police badges r different since army wears brass and other wear white metal..FUNNY LOGIC .by the way in other countries badges on shoulders r only worn by army & not other people like police cant wearing that..so feel lucky that since 1968 army never persued the case but after all this tamasha it will definately come up..just wait and watch...

loverboy said...

@bp singh. since you want facts and figures, let me tell you that in coast guard a DIG wears 4 stripes which is what a captain of navy, equivalent to col. wears. a comdt wears three stripes which is what a cdr, equivalent to lt col wears. now dont ask me for photographs! so who is equivalent to whom? answer is, in any joint exercise a cdr is in tactical command of the formation of ships being commanded by comdt of coast guard also. truth may appear "faulty language" to you but can you help it. incidentally i visited your blog, it is not even visited by your cpmf bretheren. now you can understand your own credibility.

Anonymous said...

Since when did BSF and CRPF be Paramilitary Forces? The only paramilitary forces of India are the Assam Rifles and the Coast Guard. One doesn't 'become' a fauji by merely aping them in manners of dress, accoutrements and shoulder insignia.

Anonymous said...

ew Delhi, October 15
The issue of pay anomalies for the armed forces that had arisen out of the recommendations of the Sixth Pay Commission seems to have been informally decided in favour of the forces as the ruling Congress-led UPA combine will not want this to become a poll issue.

Sources said the Congress knew it that the ground swell was in favour of the forces and this had the potential to become a poll issue.

All the four demands raised by the three service chiefs were being considered in a manner that would leave no room for any grudge.

A ministerial committee headed by Pranab Mukherjee is all in favour of agreeing to the demands of the forces.

The matter may come up in the Cabinet tomorrow or next week. Defence minister A K Antony has already announced that the matter will be sorted out before Diwali.

Indian army officer? The group B officer. said...

How do you think it will become a poll issue. our own Gens who are politician and CM of state have not spoken even a single sentence in our favour.

just forget that it can become a poll issue

IAS lobby is just trying some way to stop the natural justice for defence forces. that is why it is getting delayed.

bill said...

The only way out of the mess created by the CPC & various commettees is to immidaitly constitute a Seperate Pay Commission for the Armed Forces(like in all mature democracies-UK,USA,France etc)to give its recommendations in a short time frame(1/2months)for approval & implementation by the Govt.The other alternative is to have EXACTLY SAME pay & pay progression of ALL Gp A Officers & based on number of yrs of service ie EXACTLY SAME PAY for all offrs of same yrs of service,irrespective of thier cadre/service.Grade pay can vary & dependent on Appt/Rank cuurently held.Additional Mil Service Pay & PMF/CPO Service Pay to personals of these services.

Indian army officer? The group B officer. said...

@ BP singh

dear now you are coming on the right track. you should start asking your IPS bosses that the promotion in CPMF should be faster.
and instead of equating yourself with army just fight for pb4 in 13 years of service which every other class one job officer is getting in govt of india. instead of doing that you peoples are giving absurd logic that your officers should get what army is getting. unnecessariliy you are trying to pull us down. as you chaps are closer to power centre so ask for pb4 at your service of 13 years like any other group A officer of govt of india.

Anonymous said...

By adopting a common pay band between civilians and armed forces they have displayed a complete lack of respect (knowledge?) of the armed forces ethos, their working conditions or what motivates them to fight for the nation. Certainly it is more than the pay packet they take home, but they can no longer be expected to be immune to the happenings around them. What they see is an economy with overflowing coffers and the willingness of the powers that be to throw some peanuts their way.

It is difficult for a serviceman to understand or accept that the responsibilities shouldered by a Director (with 11 years of service) in a civilian ministry is to be equated with a Colonel/equivalent in the armed forces who has 26 years of service. In no way can the rigid working structure of the armed forces be equated with the civilian working structure or responsibilities. I wonder what sort of job analysis was carried out by the sixth pay commission to arrive at a common pay band?

One can see the handiwork of the the IAS lobby who peopled the pay commission who seem to have ensured that the armed forces were put in their place. It is a fact that the armed forces wanted representation on the pay commission but this was not agreed to, on the usual cliched reason that it would lead to similar demands from others. This is evident from the very prominent assertion in the report that 'the existing edge enjoyed by the IAS' vis-a-vis other services would be maintained.

The seething resentment against the pittance meted out to the middle rung officers and jawans, who form the backbone of the services is quite evident from all that one reads in the media. To take a couple of examples the outfit allowance for jawans was increased to Rs 20 a month, what a laugh! The pension of a Brigadier in absolute terms will increase by only 17% against what is being touted i.e. an increase of 40%. A senior JCO is reported to have retorted, "Why should I face the bullets for a paltry Rs 2000 increase."

The following extract from the media (Vishal Thapar in CNN/IBN) sums it up:

"However, the Commission fails the military at its middle rung — the level where many are queuing up to quit. Those with 20 years of service and more, get a real increase of less than 15 per cent.

“We were expecting around 200 per cent hike,” Chief of Army Staff General Deepak Kapoor says.

Rankers too are disappointed. The hike they get is between Rs 1000 and Rs 2000.

“What sort of education can a colonel provide to his children with the salary that he takes home, which is around Rs 25,000 – 27,000?” says VP Career Launchers Colonel (Retd) Gopal Karaunakaran."

It should be understood that it is not easy to motivate jawans to accept the supreme sacrifice as a way of life. World over the armed forces whether serving or retired are placed on a pedestal and this is what motivates them, but by equating them with a bunch of civilians you do not achieve that.

The facts are that ever since Independence an assiduous campaign was launched to degrade the armed forces and this has affected their morale. It started soon after Independence with officers being asked to accept cuts in their salary to bring them to "Indian rates of pay." This was followed by another campaign to equate the armed forces with other services such as the police and other para military organisations. Similarly acts such as the revision of the Warrant of Precedence, sacking of a CNS etc etc have all contributed to degrading the value of the services and seriously affected their morale. Is it any wonder that the army has a shortage of 12,000 officers at the middle and lower level?

After the second cadre review of the armed forces in 1984, a so called "working relationship" was forced on the armed forces. This spelled out that to enable the smooth handling of files at the MoD/Services HQ, the Chiefs would mark files to the Defence Secretary, Lt Gens to the Addl Secy, Maj Gens to the Joint Secy, Brigs to the Director and so on. This "working relationship" devised to ensure smoothness of functioning at MoD level, has now very cleverly transformed itself into an equivalence in pay scales by the sixth pay commission. How else are we to interpret a common running pay band? By what logic is the pay of a Brigadier to be the same as that of a Director on the civil side? How do you equate a Maj Gen with 33 years of service with a Joint Secretary with only 16 years of service?

Clearly there is a fit case for a separate pay commission for the armed forces which is responsive to their peculiar structure, job content, responsibilities, service conditions and aspirations. Clearly the sixth pay commission has not done justice to the armed forces.

Finally it is time that the nation and its rulers are made fully aware of the fact that the Armed Forces are your last resort. It would indeed be a sad day if they were to let you down due to the indifference of an unappreciating nation. For then even God will not be able to help you!

Anonymous said...

Dear All, It is so strange to read that the MES,BRO, and such organisations want the defence pers in them on deputation to go. These organizations have been created for the welfare and to facilitate the functioning of the armed forces. They are paid out of defense outlay too. They enjoy every perk not authorized to them courtesy their brotheren in the forces. It is high time the Govt made them all subject to the discipline of the forces and their controlling authorities to make them understand their roles.They remained civilians because the British did not want to pay them more at par with the uniformed forces and their role was in peace stations only. So let us not forget the purpose of each entity of the machine that is India,s defence establishment.I am reminded of the strange case of NCC state Govt civ employees union approaching Kerala High Court with a plea to allow them exclusive right to control the NCC budget in the state! Of course the Judges were wiser.One more thing. Somebody has commented on the IAS association contributing to the Congress. No it cannot happen.They may steal even from congress like the five crore they stole from canteen surplus funds for their school at Delhi even without the knowledge of a single soul other than the then Def Secretary and Chairman CSD!

shailesh said...

NFU in totality must come to Armed Forces too. It is a folly on someones part not to give this. As of now we get 6600 grade in 6 years rest all class a ser in 4 yrs, then they get 7600 in 9 years we do not get it, then they get 8700 in 13 assured we get 8000 in 13 years, then 8900 in 14 years . Of us only 10 % in 26 years.Then they get 10000 grade in 16/18 , ony 2% of us in 30 years . too late and too little the disparity is too huge to keep the Armed Forces motivated. this must be addressed fastest please. We all must try and be aware of this.