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Friday, October 10, 2008

Mythbuster : The truth about military scales

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In my humble opinion, the fight of the services is a call for equality and not an elitist battle for superiority as is perceived by certain quarters.


Myth : Lt Col is equivalent to Deputy Secretary Govt of India and Colonel to Director GoI

Reality : The Sixth Pay Commission (Page 73) and the Ministry of Finance have led us to believe that a Lt Col is equated with the Junior Administrative Grade (Dy Secy to Govt of India) while a Colonel is equivalent to Non-Functional Selection Grade (Director to Govt of India). The issue however is that this contention of the 6th CPC and the MoF is supported neither by any official document nor by the Department of Personnel & Training or the Ministry of Home Affairs. Letters issued by MoD for functional equivalence have no sanctity whatsoever in dealing with direct one to one equivalence. If there is a letter by MoD which functionally equates JAG in a particular cadre with Lt Col, then there is another by the same Ministry which equates NFSG with Lt Col in another cadre. The fact remains that the rough pay equivalence of a Lt Col has always been with the NFSG and there is no document with the govt or with the pay commission that postulates that Lt Col is equal to JAG and not to NFSG. The official stand of the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) on this issue can be seen by clicking here. The MHA has clarified that there is no document which determines the equivalence of military and civil officers. The stand of the DoPT can be seen by clicking here. The equivalence reflected by the 6th CPC is hence a self created interpretation without any official back-up. The traditional stand of the Army HQ on the issue can be seen by clicking here.

Myth : End of Pay Scale is to be taken to determine seniority amongst different posts.

Reality : Partially true. The end of scale is definitely a criterion for determination of seniority amongst posts but the said criterion is explicitly mentioned as being applicable only to ‘civil posts under the central govt’ and not to military ranks. The 5th CPC had stated that only those posts would be classified as Group – A (formerly known as Class-I) which had a minimum end of scale of Rs 13500. But the same Commission made it clear that this ‘end of scale’ criterion was only applicable to Civil Posts. The same can be noticeably seen from Page 461 of the 5th CPC report where pre-revised scales are discussed. If the same ‘end of scale’ concept is transferred to Military Ranks, then there shall be utter chaos. It is commonly known that in the 5th CPC the pay scales of Lieut and Capt both ended below Rs 13500, if you apply the ‘end of scale’ criterion to military ranks then it would mean that Lieuts and Capts of the Army are not Commissioned (Group-A) officers. The scales of Military Officers were not unduly extended because there was no functional requirement for the same – a Lieut for example had a starting pay of Rs 8250 and after four years of service with four increments had to be upgraded to a Capt’s scale, so at best there was a requirement of four increments in the scale and it made no sense to extend a Lieut’s scale to Rs 13500 unlike on some of the civil posts where there was persistent stagnation. Or let’s take another example on the flip side : the 4th CPC scale for a 2/Lieut was Rs 2300-5100, if we take the end of scale criterion for comparison of civil and military scales then it would mean that a 2/Lieut with an end of scale of Rs 5100 was senior to a Superintending Engineer (SE) of the Central Engineering Services who had an ending scale of Rs 5000. Does it make sense ?, not at all !

Myth : The pay of a Lt Col was always equal to Dy Secy GoI

Reality : There has never been a direct one to one equation of pay with the civil services but the pay of a Lt Col was definitely not equated with a JAG. It was always roughly equated with the NFSG of the civil services. After the 3rd CPC, there were three NFSG grades and the pay scale of a Lt Col (1700-1900) was interpolated between the NFSG grades of 1650-1800 and 1800-2000. After the 4th CPC, the pay of a Lt Col (4700-5900) was more than civil NFSG grades of 4100-5300 and 4500-5700. After the 5th CPC, the pay scale of a Lt Col was 15100-18700 which was more than the civil NFSG scale of 14300-18300 (15100-18300 for the IAS). It is for the first time after the 6th CPC that a scale much lower than NFSG was postulated for Lt Cols. A Group of Officers set up by the Govt of India in late 1990s had also harped on parity between Majors in their 14th year of service and NFSG officers of the civil services, and now we have elements in the MoF saying that a Lt Col is not equivalent to NFSG !

Myth : Lt Cols are designated as Joint Directors in Army HQ and hence are junior to Directors

Reality : What a pitiful argument against the services. Joint Director is just a nomenclature of a designation and not a grade or a rank. It is perfectly normal for appointments to be named differently for internal cadre management or even for different grades / ranks from different services to hold the same appointment in a particular hierarchy. In the Army Service Corps (ASC), Brigadiers are posted as Deputy Directors Supply & Transport, would it mean that such officers become equivalent to a Capt merely since they are designated as Dy Directors. Major Generals of the Army Medical Corps (AMC) are designated Deputy Directors of Medical Services, would it mean that Maj Gens of the AMC are equal to Capts of other Arms only because both are ‘Deputy Directors’ ?. The CBI Director is in the Apex Scale of Rs 80000, can an IAS officer with 13 years of service who is posted as a Director in some Ministry claim equivalence to Director CBI on the basis that both are called ‘Directors’ ?. In fact, I personally feel that Lt Cols in the Army HQ should be designated Directors, Colonels should be known as Senior Directors while Brigs should be nomenclatured Principal Directors / Dy Director Generals. ‘Joint Director’ is just a designation for functional requirement and in no way reflects the grade, rank, pay or status.

Myth : Certain Lt Colonels have been holding deputation appointments tenable by JAG officers in other organizations, hence Lt Cols have to be equated with JAG

Reality : Yes, the Army for internal cadre management has been posting Lt Cols to some posts tenable by JAG officers from the civil side but this is nothing out of the world. The same happens in civil services too, please peruse Clarification No 5 of this latest letter issued by the Ministry of Finance after the 6th CPC and everything would fall into place. On the other hand, the Army has also been posting Lt Cols to posts tenable by NFSG in certain organizations. Army officers of the rank of Major have also been sought by Govt of India for NFSG posts as would become clear by clicking here. Many a times it so happens in official circles that different organizations send officers of different grades for the same deputation post. No big deal, it does not reflect on status in any case. Certain officers of inter-service organizations claim that the status of Lt Cols was downgraded in mid 1980s when command of units was granted to Colonels instead of Lt Colonels and again when the rank of Lt Col became a Time Scale rank in 2004 leading to the absence of a ‘selection board’ whereas civilian counterparts still have to undergo a Departmental Promotion Committee (DPC). They also claim that the rank of a Col is achievable in 15 years in certain Arms and Services. Firstly, till date, the Command of units is with Substantive Lt Colonels who are actually Acting Colonels. An officer of the military as on date assumes the rank of a substantive Colonel after 20 years of service. Secondly, promotion to the rank of Lt Col is not automatic but depends on successful passing of service tests, examinations and courses besides other criteria such as physical fitness. The DPC on the civil side too is not a selection board but just a committee which simply sifts through documents to see whether officers meet the criterion of promotion mentioned under service rules.

Myth : Rank Pay is not a part of basic pay

Reality : The biggest myth. Rank Pay was actually carved out of basic pay by the 4th CPC. Officers from the rank of 2/Lieut till Brig were placed in the same scale of Rs 2300-5100 with a minima prescribed for each rank with an additional rank pay to differentiate between different ranks since the scale was the same. Hence for example, a minima of Rs 3900 was prescribed for a Lt Col in the integrated scale with a rank pay of Rs 800. This ultimately resulted in a scale of Rs 4700-5900 for Lt Cols. The 4th CPC nowhere mentioned that Rank Pay was not a part of basic pay or that it was not to be added for status purposes. In fact if we go by the line that rank pay is not to be added into basic pay then it would mean that all ranks from 2/Lieut to Brig enjoy the same status since they are in the same scale of Rs 2300-5100. It’s true that in between certain letters were issued by some officers in MoD stating therein that rank pay was not to be added into basic for comparison of posts in organizations such as the DRDO, but tell me, when the pay commission had not said so and on the contrary had explicitly stated that it was a part of basic and the same was also approved by the union cabinet, then can some non-descript officer sitting in some vague office in MoD issue any administrative instruction in contravention of the accepted pay commission report or in contravention of SAIs issued by the MoD itself ?. The addition of rank pay into basic pay accepted by the Cabinet and issued through SAIs is not open to interpretation by officers or officials of the MoD or for that matter any other Ministry. Further, even the MoD has agreed while replying to a case filed by MES officers in CAT that rank pay is to be added into basic pay and that the scale of a Col is higher than that of a Director. Click here to learn further about this case. The Hon’ble Kerala High Court in the now famous Maj Dhanapalan case has also held that rank pay is a part of basic pay. The rough pay equation of Military and civil officers till the rank of Brigadier had always been in the following pecking order:

JTS
Lieut
Capt/STS
JAG
Maj
Lt Col/NFSG
DIG
Col
Brig

This has now been changed by the 6th CPC to :

Note : The figures in “( )” represent the number of years required to reach the grade/rank including training period assuming that the military officer was trained at IMA. The figures in “[ ]” represent the total percentage of directly appointed officers reaching the particular grade/rank.

JTS (0) [100%] = Lieut (1.5) [100%]

Capt (3.5) [100%] = No civil equivalent as per 6th CPC

STS (4) [100%] = Maj (7.5) [100%]

JAG (9) [100%] = Lt Col (14.5) [100%]

NFSG (13) [100%] = Col (21.5) [<30%*]
DIG (14) [100%] = Brig (29.5) [<5%*]>
* Approximate value subject to correction. The comparison is between commissioned officers of the regular army appointed through the CDSE conducted by UPSC and organized Group-A officers appointed through the CSE conducted by UPSC

(JTS-Junior Time Scale, STS-Senior Time Scale, JAG-Junior Administrative Grade, NFSG-Non Functional Selection Grade)


Jai Hind.


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54 comments:

Anonymous said...

MY DEAR BROTHERS..PLZ READ THIS

The Literal Lowdown ---from livefist.blogspot

Setting Up of Committee of Secretaries (CoS). CoS was set up to look into and resolve the anomalies in the 6th CPC report, as highlighted by various Central Govt cadres.

Armed Forces Representative Not Included In Any Capacity. Verbal assurances were offered by the officials of the Def Ministry that the issues raised by the Armed Forces were well understood by them and will be pursued most honestly and diligently by the Def Secy (a member in the CoS). Hence, they justified non-inclusion of any Armed Forces Rep in the CoS, even in advisory or observer capacity.

Opaqueness in Deliberations of CoS. In absence of any communication from the CoS, the Chairman COSC formally sought that the findings and recommendation of the CoS be shared with the Armed Forces for them to attach their concurrence or observations, if any, prior to the same being submitted to the Cabinet for “Informed Decision Making”. No formal or Informal Response was received to this formal request.

Cabinet Decision : Ill Informed. The Cabinet could not be faulted in giving its approval to the recommendations of the CoS. They were fair in assuming that Armed Forces views would have been objectively presented and analysed as the Def Secy was on the panel of CoS.

Questionable Manner of Dissemination of Govt Notification of the CPC. The Govt Notification was made available to the Services HQ late on Friday (after 5.30 PM the office closing time in South Block). Further, only that portion of the notification was made available which pertained to the Armed Forces. This prevented the concerned Armed Forces officials to study the Govt Notfn at least until offices opened on Monday; and even then, unable to do any comparative analysis vis-à-vis provisions made for other Govt Services, they would not be in position to analyse the implications on parity/disparity issues for quite some time thereafter.

Major Discrepancies Noticed by Armed Forces in Govt Notfn. While being exposed to continued “informal pressure from the bureaucracy” to commence the implementation process, the Armed Forces, with ‘patient haste’ conducted a detailed study and analysis to find “four major discrepancies” in the Govt notfn. While, one of the core anomalies was the legacy of the original CPC report, the Armed Forces were surprised that the other three had been introduced surreptitiously by the CoS itself (please remember, the CoS was constituted to resolve anomalies and NOT create them).

Chairman COSC and Services Chiefs Meet RM. The RM, when presented the facts pertaining to the 4 Core Anomalies, was convinced of their logic and legitimacy and promised the Service Chiefs to take up the issue with the PM. He directed the officials in the MoD to communicate the same to the PMO, with his recommendations for early resolution.

The Bureaucratic Subversion. In absence of the RM, the MoD did not send any communication to the PMO as directed by the Minister. Instead, it sent a note for consideration of the officials of the Fin Ministry. The note thus sent, diluted the Armed Forces’ case as was presented to the RM and with which the RM had already concurred. The officials of the Fin Ministry diluted the Armed Forces case even further and presented the same to the Fin Minister. The Note, thus rejecting most of the Armed Forces’ observations and proposals was to be dispatched to the PMO.

Service Chiefs Meet Finance Minister: Bureaucratic Subversion Partially Exposed. The Service Chiefs (at least the two of them) met the Fin Minister before the Note rejecting the Armed Forces’ case could be dispatched to the PMO. After detailed presentation of their case, the Fin Minister acknowledged that “officials in his Ministry had misled him and had also misrepresented facts”.

Bureaucratic Fiat Issued Separately to Three Services to Notify Govt Notfn on Pay Commission so as to Ensure Its Implementation wef 01 Oct 08. Three separate notes were issued separately directly to the three Services HQ (please remember, all communication on the subject between the MoD and the Services were with the Central Pay Commission Cell in the COSC and not directly with the Services HQ). Moreover, the notes were issued by the MoD in absence of the RM who still was away on foreign visit.

Service Chiefs Meet PM. The PM responded favorably to the Service Chiefs’ presentation of the core anomalies. He also stated that he had received favorable comments on the issues, from the Fin Minister but, the PMO could not proceed to take a view as it had not yet received any communication on the issue from the MoD. (Please remember again that the RM, before proceeding on visit abroad, had instructed his Ministry to send a formal communication to the PMO).

Service Chiefs Meet RM : Fears of Further Exposure of Bureaucratic Subversion. Service Chiefs apprised the RM of their meetings with the Fin Minister and the PM. They also apprised him of the fact that no communication had been sent by the MoD, as personally directed by him) to the PMO. The RM directed a letter drafted immediately, recommending all Armed Forces’ proposals. The same was dispatched, addressed to the PM and personally signed by the RM.

Services Chiefs Issue Communication to All Ranks. The nature of sudden and intense media campaign which had potential of subverting the morale and maybe discipline of personnel, issue communications to all ranks in respective services.

The following basic principles must be considered and informed view taken in the context of the issue being discussed:

Is Govt Authority synonymous with the Bureaucratic Authority? Is Subservience of the Military to the Civil Authority in a Democracy synonymous with Subservience of the Military to Bureaucratic Authority?

Each one in the Armed Forces have grown, since their initial induction, learning that in a Democracy, in the context of the Military’s Subservience to the Civil Authority, the Civil Authority signifies the “Elected Govt” and at the larger levels, the “Parliament” and the “Constitution of India”. On day-to-day functioning, the bureaucracy may represent the elected Govt but it surely does NOT replace elected Govt.

The bureaucracy misled the Cabinet into believing that their recommendations were based on fair consideration of the views and logic of the Armed Forces (if it was not so, the RM, FM and PM would not have been surprised and found merit in the issues raised by the Armed Forces subsequently).

The bureaucracy, knowing the schedule of foreign visits by the RM and PM, deliberately worked in a manner that would prevent exhaustive deliberations with the deadline of 01 Oct and thus pressurise (the pressure was brought through a section of the media, led by Indian Express and a print news agency) the Armed Forces to implement the Pay Commission in its current form and deferring the resolution of the core anomalies indefinitely. This is exactly what they achieved in the case of previous Pay Commission.

What is most disconcerting in the bureaucratic design that they resorted to “disobeying instructions of the RM”; and “Misleading the FM and Misrepresenting Facts Before Him”. The charge of “Defiance of Govt Authority” that is being labeled upon the Service Chiefs actually should be labeled upon the Bureaucracy.

As for the Service Chiefs withholding Notifying the Govt Order, it is a simple case of they being morally bound to apprise the Govt of their perception of anomalies and ill-effects of implementing its order, prior to blindly executing it. Once the Govt (represented by the RM and PM) found merit in reconsidering the aspects brought before it by the Armed Forces and assured the Service Chiefs of having a re-look, until it got back to the Services with fresh instructions, the Services cannot be blamed for ‘defiance’ or ‘disobedience’. Once the Govt did come back during the previous weekend with interim orders, the Services have accepted the same and are implementing.

As far as the communications issued by the three Services Chiefs to all ranks is concerned, one ought to read the complete documents and understand the context. There is nothing in them which can be distantly construed as ‘defiance of govt authority’. In fact, in all manuals on military leadership and of late, also included in teachings on HR by the corporates, one of the abiding principles is that of “keep men informed”. This is expressly meant for men not following prey to rumours, propaganda and misinformation as they can seriously subvert the morale, discipline and ultimately operational effectiveness of any organized group and especially, the Armed Forces.

Mr Shekhar Gupta’s contention of the Service Chiefs behaving as “Union Leaders” egged by cheering ex-Servicemen, is gross misrepresentation. The Armed Forces are denied right to form unions, firmly in the belief that the concerns of each individual are addressed by a strict chain of command. This chain leads to the Service Chiefs. The Service Chiefs are thus doing what they ought to do in a democratic setup and purely as per democratic norms which govern the interface between the Civil Govt leadership and its subordinate military leadership. Mr Shekhar Gupta has also attributed the Services Chiefs with “Open Defiance of Civil Authority”. Is he in know of or can he recollect any instance of any act or articulation by services Chiefs which any sensible person can construe as defiance of civil authority? He surely cannot. Further, the ex-Servicemen should, if at all, be complimented for expressing their concerns and grievances, not only in democratic fashion but in a “dignified democratic fashion”. He, through his column, could have actually asked other interest groups and individuals to emulate them.

The whole episode so far, has been a classic case of the bureaucracy “subverting the democratic functioning of the state”; “undermining ‘informed – thus wise’ decision making by the Elected Govt”; and “Subverting the Public Opinion by Using/Misusing the Media”.

The facts and their sequence as brought out may be verified by those willing and an objective opinion may only be made thereafter. The provisions of the RTI Act would surely help uncover the criminal collusion and lengths to which the officials in the concerned Ministries have gone to, to ensure misrepresentation of issues, misleading their own Ministers (and thus the Govt) with the ill-intent of depriving legitimate dues to the Armed Forces personnel and undermining their status.

The bureaucracy, especially those associated with the Defence Ministry, during the past six decades, have found themselves not only increasingly incompetent but even unwilling to develop related competencies, to fulfill their assigned roles. As this episode clearly shows, the bureaucracy have instead, attempted to usurp the role of the Ministers (& thus the Govt) by assigning most of the “decision making” to themselves in the growing belief that in all cases of Ministerial interventions, they can effectively misrepresent facts and mislead the busy Ministers and further, that their acts of commission and omission will never be open to scrutiny of the Armed Forces. In the instant case, the concerned bureaucrats had not bargained for the Service Chiefs walking up the political masters which led to exposing of their nefarious designs and professional gross misconduct.

It is anybody’s guess that the current media campaign is the handiwork of the same very bureaucrats in a last ditch effort to scuttle the “Informed Decision Making Process by the Appointed GoM” and to “Cover Bureaucratic Misdeeds & Follies” by raising the bogey of “Armed Forces’ Defiance of the Govt Authority”.

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep, It is indeed refreshing to see someone who is so passionate about the case of the personnel in uniform...My heartfelt thanks to you from colleagues in the Armed Forces.

I have been following the blogs by pragmatic and others including live fist for sometime and I am sorry for some of my "enthusiastic friends" using language that does not augur well for OLQ. Unfortunately it appears that there has been a deliberate attempt to unleash an info-war against the Armed Forces using these blogs as a convenient platform. You have been pretty candid about your views. I do hope the GOM take note of the deep rooted mistrust most of us in uniform have formed for our brother officers in civil streets. I would hope Mr Pragmatic and his friends take note. I would urge my rational friends in uniform to bear with the dignified steps taken by the three Chiefs of Staff. It is indeed a noble step taken by them proving that good leadership does exist in the Forces. Mr Shekhar Gupta may have his misgivings on the issue - only time and the future will tell how far his predictions come true.

My word of caution to my colleagues in uniform - the battle has just been joined - should we even win this battle it would possibly be the first of the many battles you can expect to face both directly and as an info-war in the days ahead. Tiger Hill still looms in front. My honest and sincere advise is that the response from the Armed Forces to all such issues should be rational and well thought of. Days of shooting from the hip and being lackadaisical in our approach towards issues military have led us up this path. It is certainly time as the Admiral brought out (my sincere congratulations Sir - you could not have hit the nail on its head any harder) for the armed forces to internally review their own styles of working and set their own houses in order. In passing I do hope this new found bonhomie between the services would reflect in an Integrated Approach to Military matters - the bottom line is that whatever my friends in civvy streets may say we still remain the last frontier for mother India... JAI HIND

Anonymous said...

Have Lt Cols been put in PB-4?

BV Rao, Ex-Serviceman said...

In order to arrive at firm authentic stand on the subject issues,thorough study is required. I have a clue that the constitution lays down how the Govt is to be run. Ministers - Group of Ministers - Parliament are to run the Govt with the help of Secretaries/equivalents.Further, Standing Committees of each ministry is a Powerful body. Bureucrats are not empowered to take unilateral decissions effecting the morale of the Armed Forces. Army Generals are accountable for their action towards Defence of the nation; They defend at the cost of their own life, when situation leads to that. Hence, they must have a lot of say on the defence preparedness. Constitutional experts/ Retired judges could advice the steps needed to safeguard the nations interest as far as Defence is concerned.It is already established, in the case of minutes of meeting of ITI Directors, that Bureucrats are habituated to change the original recommendations. Hence, CoS changing the 6th CPC Report is a most likely probability. Can ever the faith be restored on this link of the Govt.?

Anonymous said...

There has been no logic in what civil side says on equivelence. Only thing they try to follow is as follows:-
JS = Maj Gen (as laid down in wop)
What is next lower civ post? Dir, so he is eq of next lower mil rank = Brig. What next? DS so he is eq of next lower mil rank = Col. Go further down in civ designations and the equivelance propogated by civ side becomes clear, see it below;-

US = LT COl
Desk Officer = Major.

There have been forged letters issued to this effect one that shows this eq and the other that shows as follows:-

Dir= brig
DS = Ltcol
US = Maj
Desk Officer = Capt (some mercy shown to services even during forgery)

But many ministries seem to follow these forged letters which were confrimed as false by MHA and Cab Sec.

Anonymous said...

Enlightening.

Having closely worked with the Defence services and intelligence organisations, I fee that the actual equation has always been :

Lt=JTS
Capt=STS (US to Central govt)
Maj=JAG (DS to Central govt)
Lt Col=SG (Dir to Central govt)
Col=DIG/Conservator of Forest
Brig=SAG officers not empanelled as Jt Secys
Maj Gen=SAG officers empaneleed as Jt Secy GoI
Lt Gen=HAG (Addl Secy to Central govt)
Lt Gen (Army Commander)=Secy to Central govt
Gen=Cab Secy

But if we let civilians (IAS/CSS) rule the roost then this is what they'll want us to believe ultimately on the basis of Maj Gen=Jt Secy equation

Maj Gen = Jt Secy GOI
Brig=Dir
Col=Dy Secy
Lt Col=Under Secy
Maj=Section Officer
Capt=Desk Officer
Lt=UDC
2/Lt=LDC

The same was tried by the IAS with the IPS but we did not let them succeed.

Idiots, steel frame my foot.

Anonymous said...

@Annon friend 12.20am

"I am sorry for some of my "enthusiastic friends" using language that does not augur well for OLQ"

The mess in which we are today is a gift of people like you,who have accepted everything in the name of OLQ.
OLQ does not work in a scenario where opposition has crossed all limits to put you on floor.
You need to put your OLQ book to a side and read Bhagvad Gita where Sri Krishna preaches Arjuna why he should fight the battle against his own kith and kins.
And in a battle for your honour every weapon which yields result should be employed without getting bogged down by ethics.
Remember Tulsidas teaching sham,dam bhaya,bhed to conquer your opponent.
I HOPE IT SINKS IN.

Anonymous said...

@Anony 10.45am
Well said, buddy. We are in this muck because of 'discilpined' and 'OLQ' blokes. It's cowardice to keep quite when one is being abused by babooze - they do not know the meaning of decency and mistake it as weakness. All weapons to be used against the enemy!

Anonymous said...

My Dear Friends,

Firstly I thank Maj Nevdeep for his excellent and logical articulation of the subjects and issues.

Secondly I agree with, Ano October 11, 2008 12:20 AM, in its entirety. While being on board any where let us not bark like some of the MoD fellows having been barking all over. Going down to the level of passing filthy sexual comments on Aroor and his wife. That is what can be expected from them. When they have nothing to say, then they say "they have a file on the Chief or You"...my God...such degeneration on the part of the PRO of MoD or the IAS upstarts in the MoD..??? Horronous..

It is rightly said by Ano that This battle has just begun. Never forget that this is a battle for just, moral and dignified cause and the Armed Forces have all moral high ground. No one should loose the moral high ground due to inappropriate actions or indulging into childish pranks of abusive languages etc. Let us not denigrate ourselves as "Gentemen Officers", an epithat, IAS and many others have lost for ever long long ago.

Money has lot of role to play in life but finally, it is not everything. It is the "Quality of Life" or I would say "tranquility and purposefulness of life" that matters. in the end the Cabinet Secretary can not take his post to the heaven but a soldier does take his "sacrifices and place of pride" to the heavan. That is what the estblished and well believed religious scripures do say.

Alas ! IAS Babus have also amanded the "Geeta" in reality to give the all benfits of soldiering to themselves.

Geeta says that "if you win the War, you will enjoy all pleasures of the mortal earth and in case of the death you will be go to the heaven."

For sure, the Kalyugi IAS Babudom in MoD have amended Geeta and in effect. the "Babu Geeta" is implemented thus:

" In case you win, me and my children and my limited family will enjoy the fruits of your victory and the benfits of worldy goods and if you die, I will make you unsung and forgotton"

The Armed Forces balttle now, it seems to be much more wide and meaningful than many of you think. If it has political iplications, those will be positive for the functioning of Democracy. It is for restoring the "place of honour" of a soldier. Armed Forces do not stsnd to loose any thing as they have lost every thing over last 61 years. They only stand to gain what ever it is. IAS lobby has pushed them to the wall and from here there is No where to Go.

I think No one is making a realistic assessment of the degree of anger and discantment in the Armed Forces. Least of all the PM. Of Course, IAS is known to create and worsen the situation everywhere rather than solve it. Solving any problem is beyond their psychological makeup.

So be ready to restore your prestige and elan. It is going to be a long drawn affair, it seems.

And stop ranting about this PB-4 like children. Now it is No more the issue. Issues now are much bigger. PB- will fall in place but that is not the problem. Basic problems are much bigger.

Remain in the milieu.


Thanks.

Anonymous said...

@Annon 11.05.
You started on a good note but got cofused midway.Still undecided which line to tow.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anno 11;35

Kindly articulate your Line for the benifts of all

My objective is 1952 Order of Precedence

CDS of the status of Minister of States

Integration of Mod entirely...

Complete imlementation of Kargil Committee report in all respect and deptts..to begin with..

Militarisation of all Armed Police Forces under MHA as a long term objective to augment capabilities and potentail

Money is a viatal issue...soldiers serve in the Armed Forces for money coupled with dignity...In present day society...dignity and status is bought by money..

There is no system of Zagirs to be given to soldiers for status..

Money is indespensable part...


Of Course ...the Geeta has been rewritten for soldiers...by the Babus...Can you restore it...??

what you say....!!! You want AI format???

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,

Army Act and its equivalnt Air Force and Neval Acts clearly lay down that :

'An officer commanding a force shall not place a person subject to this Act under 1[clause (i) of sub-section (1) of section 2] under the command of an officer of rank inferior to that of such person, if there is present at the place where such person is any officer of a higher rank under whose command he can be placed."

For the deputation and interministerial or inter Deaprtmental equations and eqivalance, the above Acts of the Parliament clearly lays down and makes it the responsibilty of the "Chain of Commnd" (finally the Chiefs) that they shall not place their officers under any one who is equal or inferior in Status / rank.

Why then the Services HQ have deputed and posted their Officers in Cabinet Secretariat and NSG etc under appointments like DIG etc which are not Superior to their officers or on posts that does not result in equivallance that was previous enjoyed by the officers.

The above Section is a dirctive to the three Chiefs through the Act of the Parliament that the three Chiefs will not accept any Change in equations between their officers and other deparment officers that is not laid down and definened by proper legal authorities. When it comes to equivalance of its officers and the Armed Forces, Mod is not the Competent Authority to decide on the issue without it being Approved by the Cabinet and withourt a view of the Srvices HQ on the issue.

MoD, contrary to the this Section of the Act and in its Contravention, can not arbitrarily define equivallance between Armed Forces officers and MoD functionaries. The three Chiefs have legal rights not to accept such order that puts their officers under any one who has been either inferior in status to him or equivallant.

Are Not the three Chiefs lagally Justified in not issuing any Notifications that downgrades the ranks of the Service Officers in Comparision.???

Is not the forced MoD notification being issued now, illegal in view of this provsion of the Army Act and equivallant Air Force and Neval Acts?? This Forces Notification amounts to downgradation of Armed Forces ranks based on the report of a Commitee which had no such mandate.

Can this issue be examined from legal angles in detail. What are these JAG guys doing...sleeping????

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony 12.34

I agree with you. We should not have designated our Brigs as DIsG and Maj Gens as IsG in AR and NSG.

Anonymous said...

Read this

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&id=17221&sectionid=40&task=view&issueid=74&Itemid=1

On September 24, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Suresh Mehta sent out an unclassified signal to his men. It spoke of how the navy was delaying the implementation of the Sixth Central Pay Commission (CPC) recommendations passed by the Union Cabinet.

Two days later, it was followed by a similar signal from the Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor. Shaken by this unprecedented move, which some whispered was nothing short of a revolt, Defence Minister A.K. Antony pulled them up, following which the forces released 40 per cent arrears to their men.

The Government stepped in days later to announce the formation of a three-member committee headed by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, including Finance Minister P. Chidambaram and Antony.

The services have also delayed the implementation of another government order to implement the revised pay scales, preferring instead to wait for the recommendations of the committee.

But what compelled the chiefs to cross the line in disobeying a Cabinet decision? "Such a situation has never been seen. It sets a bad precedent. Tomorrow, it could be used for any issue at the local level," says former defence secretary Ajai Vikram Singh.

Army officials insist the chiefs did not send out the service instructions which would implement the new pay commission from October 1 only to quell the possibility of unrest among the ranks. "The chiefs had no other recourse. They could not afford to let their men down," says Lt-General (retd) Vinay Shankar.


The service chiefs are standing fast against a Cabinet decisionProtests from the armed forces have left the Sixth CPC hanging fire for over six months. The forces have painted the bureaucrats as villains of the piece for keeping them out of the panel that formulated the pay commission.

This despite an internal report of Ministry of Defence (MoD) that explicitly states that key proposal of the Task Force On the Management of Defence-the appointment of an armed forces' representative on the Sixth CPC-has been implemented.

The armed forces emphasise that their grievances are not about money but about how the existing pecking order has been disrupted. Lt-colonels and their equivalent, wing commanders and commanders, have been put in a pay bracket lower than their counterparts in the police and paramilitary forces.

This grievance ironically surfaced after the recommendations of an anomaly committee set up to review the Sixth CPC. Lt-generals have been kept out of the higher administrative grade where director-generals of police are included. Even pension of soldier has been reduced.

"The issue is not about money but of status equivalence. There are certain functional requirements working at a certain level," says Admiral Mehta, who is also the chairman of Chiefs of Staffs Committee.

Government rules determine an officer's seniority on pay and the date of his entry into the pay band. While raising IPS ranks, what the Sixth CPC did was to raise paramilitary ranks also.

An imbalances which can prove disastrous when the armed forces operate in conjunction with police and paramilitary agencies. "India will be the first country where the paramilitary will be senior to the armed forces," says Vice Admiral (retd) A.K. Singh.

Murmurs of the status quo being upset are already apparent. Last week, the Indian Defence Services Employees' Association, which represents civil engineers, informed employees of 'altered relativities' of the Sixth CPC. The implication was quite clear-the civil engineers have been upgraded to the pay bracket of their erstwhile superiors, the army officers.


The services are upset by the disturbance of the status quoClick here to Enlarge
The last two commissions were hotly contested by the armed forces with the Fifth CPC triggering off a near-revolt among the technical cadre of the Indian Air Force. "This time around the Government has been more standoffish, leaving the services little room for manoeuvre," says Major General (retd) Surjit Singh , a member of two previous commissions.

The Sixth CPC has led to silent yet widespread discontent among the men in uniform and continuing protests by ex-servicemen's organisations. This peculiar situation has led to the unhappy sight of service chiefs almost reduced to the role of playing union leaders bargaining for higher pay.

Expressing a lack of faith in the committee of secretaries which was to look into their grievances, they have turned to the political leadership. The chiefs have pushed their case with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi. How did these imbalances creep in?

The chiefs say they were not consulted by the Government before the gazette notification was issued. The military points to their old bete noire-the civilian bureaucrats at the MoD-and allege the entire episode is the outcome of their 'subverting the democratic functioning of the state'.

When the chiefs met Antony last month to protest over the four anomalies, he assured them that he would take up the issue with the Prime Minister. MOD bureaucrats were instructed to communicate with the Prime Minister. But inexplicably, they sent it to the Finance Ministry without mentioning these anomalies.

"The military is subservient to civil authority which includes the government, Parliament and the Constitution. On day-to-day functioning the bureaucracy may represent the Government but it cannot replace it," says an army official.

Antony, however, chose to play down the rift. "There is no difference between the government and the services, because they are also part of the Government," he says.

The three-member ministerial committee which Antony is part of is set to present its findings well before the unofficial Diwali deadline. MOD officials say the committee is not averse to putting Lt-colonels in the higher pay band and giving them the same grade pay as their civilian counterparts.

But it is unwilling to accede to the other two demands. The only certainty in this sad dispute is that the gap between the bureaucracy and the armed forces is set to widen into a chasm.

Ajith said...

@ all anonys
Both the 'OLQ' blokes and the 'Gita' admirers have point here. However it is better if we all remember that only thing which can defeat us in this battle for honour is our losing the moral high ground. The hawks on the otherside knows it better than you.

Anonymous said...

@ to all...

i just wonder..what will be the outcome of 3 minister commitee..

1. will they restore the status as it existed before 6th cpc...?

this will mean moving lt col to where col is today and col to move where brig is..or logically ahead of DIG POLICE..
and brig to be just below joint secy...and AHEAD OF DIG..

SIMILAR REQUIREMENT WILL BE THERE FOR MAJORS AND CAPTS ALSO..

LT GENS HAVE TO MOVE AHEAD OF HAG+ OR MAY BE TO HAVE ONE OR TWO INCREMENTS MORE THAN DGP..

IT IS NOT DIFFICULT..BUT WILL IT REALLY HAPPEN...

BECAUSE THE IAS HAS SMARTLY FOOLED THE GOVT..BY PULLING EVERYONE ONE AS AGAINST THE ORIGINAL 6TH CPC REPORT AND NOW FOR EVERY CHANGE IN ARMY STATUS THE GOVT WILL CRY THAT BUDGETRY LOAD IS INCREASING..

WHAT A FUNNY MESS WE R INTO..
Y THE GOVT NOT DISMISSINF THOSE WHO R RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS MESS UP..

THEY GOVT HAS BEEN ROBED BOTH MORALLY AND FINANCIALLY BY CIVIL SERVICES..AND NOW TO GIVE ARMED FORCES THEIR DUE THEY R QUATING FINANCIAL IMPLICATIONS...

IT IS A BIG...BIG..SCANDLE THAT IS ON...

Anonymous said...

sorry for tying errors..

Anonymous said...

@Annon 2.12pm

However it is better if we all remember that only thing which can defeat us in this battle for honour is our losing the moral high ground.

Where is morality?

How do you define moral high ground?

All these phrases have been coined to blackmail you, friend.

Choice is yours.Keep repeating these words and attain moksha.
MAY GOD GRANT WISDOM TO YOU ALL TO UNDERSTAND THINGS AS THEY ARE.

Anonymous said...

@ajith

There no bloakes here...find out the real ones and target those...

You may be Cats whiskers...sy something meaning full that contributes..
Do not pass judgements...Ok...

neo said...

check out a pay planner for armed forces as per sixth cpc

http://paymatrix.blogspot.com

Anonymous said...

@NEO or Vinny

"check out a pay planner for armed forces as per sixth cpc

http://paymatrix.blogspot.com"


and make your computer a zoombi of ISI or Indian Muzahhiddin..

So that next email of the blasts goes out of your Compter...

Very Dangerious...

Anonymous said...

THE 3 MINISTERS R TAKING TIME FOR NO GOOD REASON...

they just have to give grade pays as given to IAS OFFRS AFTER 4,9,13 YRS OF SERVICE..

Anonymous said...

i fully agree.But one question to the so called high officers of Air force.Why are you fighting for parity when it never existed in your organisation.You had a pilot class and a ground duty class.So why speak of parity? Even under AVSC2 why do you have different promotion parameters? why do you have 16 yrs for pilot(just a glorified driver) and 18 yrs for all other branches.Then where is the parity?Pilots (even the dumbest and most indisciplined ) are given promotion while good ground duty officers dont make it since vacancies simply dont exist.Shame indeed.Then you dont deserve parity.

Ajith said...

@ annony Oct 11 4:28
No offence intended there. Just my opinion. Thats it. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Dear Friends,

The Problem with IAS right from beginning of the Service to Cabinet Secretary and everywhere else is their sadistic Cultural ethos of "We Control / We Govern" and never as "We Contribute / We serve".

It is this kind of an attitude that makes them believe that they are "Permanent Executives" as compared to "Aya Ram Gaya Ram" politicians.

In the backdrop of their self serving beliefs of being the "Permanent Executives", all other services, be it IPS, Defense, IRS or any thing else are considered as "Permanent Servants". That is how IAS treat all others. Others are not part of being "Executives" only IAS is. IAS occupy 225 Secretary level posts in Ministries as compared to a meager 25 by all other All India Services.If they assert themselves to be the "Permanent Executives", on ground realities and solid reasons do exist for that.

That is a very bad and dangerous situation for Political and Bureaucratic health of our Country. How can our Political System allow such a "dangerous" and autocratic or I shall say, "tyrannical" bureaucratic system to exist.

I was aghast to hear that IAS exercises "Political Control" and are "Permanent Executives". My theoretical mind replete with ideas of Plato, Aristotle, Russuoe Gandhi and what not could not accept such "blasphemy". However a cool look at the state of affairs makes me feel that what they assert in their "arrogance" is actually true and the ground reality.

If we leave aside "Aya Ram Gaya Ram", we have other democratic institutions in the Country, such as Political Parties, Press, Media, Academia, Administrative Reforms Committees, Administrative Tribunals, Interest groups, Unions, Peoples organization. How have they failed to have a check on this "Leviathan" called IAS.

Can any one answer why are they there on Committees which are supposed to exercise Control over them? Why are Employee Association like those of Central Services quietly observing this "Tamasha". Why their occassions protests are not given a serious attention?

Allowing any particular service, organization and Interest group such a hold is against the Concept and functioning of Democracy. Absence of Checks and Balances is a sure shot way of allowing "Tyranny". Some years ago, Ms Thapars of Eco and Pol Weekly and the "Seminar" mag had carried an in depth study of this Phenomenon and exposed the IAS Tyranny. But it seems the nexus between Emerging Noe Rich, Politician, Criminals, Contractors and Looters of the State is absolutely cemented and difficult to break. It does call for drastci acyions at this stage.

The IAS have emerged as "Bureaucratic Mafia" in the Country and have become the most dangerous elements for the survival and functioning of "democracy". They have scuttled interest of all others and have not left even the "Defense Forces" of the Country. They negotiate billions of dollars of Arms Purchases and own hefty billions as kick backs. Very soon they will be "Nuclear Rich".

It is high time solid Checks and "Administrative Reforms" be introduces in the Higher Echelons of the Bureaucracy and IAS Tyranny be restrained by "those who care". IAS has no business to be in 225 Ministries out of 250 Secretary level positions. Let there be equatable distribution amongst all Central and even State services of the Secretary and Additional Secretary level post.

otherwise this Mammoth will subvert all democratic Processes and all political decisions in favor of the Nexus. It will suvert elections, Law and Order and devide and fracture the Polity as it seems to be doing now.

Can we as a developing Democracy afford such a Tyranny as IAS?

Something drastically needs to be done to restore balance in higher Bureaucratic setup or the "Steel Frame" will eat up the entire Body and Soul od the country. They are exploiting every one in the name of "Union Vs States" forces. There are thousands other Central services who are as Committed and Democratic as IAS to serve the interests of the Union. There are Certain Institutions like Economic Ministries, Finance, Security, Defence, Science and Technology Ministries IAS has no business to be. Those require specialistsand innovative people and not file pushing politicised Babus.

Jai Hind

Anonymous said...

@Anony 8:40AM

You have brought out how truly entrenched IAS has become into the Indian System. From mere keepers of secrets (secretaries) they have become the government themselves; as is evident from so many memos signed by some undie secretary enumerating :"It has been decided by Govt". No prizes for guessing who and what is the Govt here. Problem however, lies in uprooting this evil.

Once gangrene sets in, amputation is a most likely recourse. But in a democracy, amputation amounts to revolution and a democracy, in my view gets mature through evolutionary process. Stating the obvious, we have to find a way to start this process of evolution. We can be sure it is not going to start from within. Even external stimulus is a remote possibility bcoz of enshrinement offered by ex-babooze like the PM. It is only natural for him to enshrine an institution he has been a part of! Any fauji will do the same, and so will a police officer or even a criminal. It is to discredit of IAS and the political system that all suggested attempts at reforms have been not implemented.

Problem, thus, lies in finding out ways and means in taming the belligerent baboon who is hell bent on subverting the very system that ensures its survival. For starters, the present stand off must be milked to its maximum in reverting what has been undone in last 60 years and return to 1952 WOP should act as a great starting point. I do not claim or say this to be the best idea. I am limited by my horizons and presentation of information. People in the know must formulate methods and make it an information warfare to achieve the results. Rack up those brilliant brains guys and tame this dirty monster called IAS.

Anonymous said...

We Are a democratic System..

Services should demand restoration of their position vis a vis the Civil Servats and and Bureaucracy not other Consttitutional and democratic institutions.

That is only preli,inary.
More important that that is that the tree Services must agrre to the post of CDS in the intrest of Defence of the Nation and Services Interest.

The CDS should be of Cabinet/ RRM rank as existing in many Democracies.

Let CDS Coordinate all afairs of Defence rather than Def Sec / Cab Secy.

It should be CDS who should the points man for the CCS and also coordinate things in National Security Agency. If the Govt wants to appoint a NSA above or equal to CDS let it be so.

That are extremely good thoughts on the issue.

But MoD should be washed away off these stinking Babus. They have proved themselves enemy of the Armed Forces time and again. It has become very difficult for the Armed Forces to survive along with them. Or the only job left for the Services HQs will be elblow pushing these Babus.

No fruitful work....

Indian army officer? The group B officer. said...

A BEFITTING REPLY TO PRAGMATIC AND SHEKHAR GUPTA (COPY PASTE)

COMMAND AND DEMAND: AN OPEN LETTER FROM A CIVILIAN

I write with reference to the article ” Chain of command, demand ” by Shekhar Gupta (Ind Exp 4th. Oct 2008).

Mr. Gupta has not only castigated the chiefs but also predicted dire consequences for them. Not difficult when your courage can bask in the knowledge that the armed forces cannot respond because of the various Acts. Fortunately I also don’t have to worry about these laws. Gupta has forgotten important issues and aspects of the whole affair.

The present chiefs have less than 18 months to go. In 2010 you will have a brand new trio. If the chiefs were to go by what Gupta has implicitly suggested, three scenarios emerge.

Scenario 1: In the Golf Club at the 6th. Hole (recall it is the 6th. Pay Commission). Says one chief to the others - what do we do now? The other says- arre bhai chodo na, ki farak pendha. We are out in 18 months and then we would be looking forward to becoming Governors/Ambassado rs etc. Let’s sign on the dotted line. No one will remember this after one year.

Scenario 2: Same place. The chiefs say - Hey, we are a democratic country remember? So why not conduct a poll through Indian Express by email/sms. All officers and men will vote on – should we accept the 6th. PC or not? One lucky officer and one lucky jawan will get a prize – not being posted to Siachen at all. After all, being a democratic government, Raksha Mantriji will congratulate us. See how they keep on saying – people supreme, people supreme. So for us, officers and soldiers supreme, no?

Scenario 3: The chiefs accept the proposals so as to maintain discipline and supremacy of the civilian government, but resign to register their protests. Sounds corny, but do you like it?
What would “General” Gupta choose? Let us know. With reasons. Yes, the whole affair has been mishandled. But by whom?

By the Defence Minister who was probably acting on the advice of his Defence Secretary. So let Antony start by booting his Defence Secretary out. But he can’t. As you have rightly stated a more powerful government and a defence minister who knows the difference between a human butt and that of a rifle may pounce on the services. But there also has to be an army then. Will we have an army in 5-10 years? Why is the armed forces pay always in dispute? Because the establishment mafia which includes netas, land owners, owners of assets and media want the country to be defended as cheaply as possible with the lives of other people’s children. How many of these categories have their progeny in the forces?

If MPs can decide their emoluments and civil servants theirs, why can’t the armed forces do so directly with the political leadership? Why not make the Defence Ministry independent with its own budget like the Railway Ministry. We the people would contribute what it wants and we will pay only the difference to the Consolidated Fund (or is it Fraud) of India.

You have hit below the belt by stating that the present chiefs are not a patch on Thimayya, Maneckshaw, Lal, Sunderji, Tahiliani et al. But time and fate are great balancers – the army got the chiefs needed to deal with stalwarts like Patel, Krishna Menon, Indira Gandhi and Jagjivan Ram. Recall how Lt. Gen Thakur Nathu Singh asked Nehru how much experience he had as PM when the latter wanted Britishers to continue for 15 years after independence because Indian Generals did not have experience.

That’s why Indian Express also had a Ramnath Goenka during the emergency. Today, even a Major (sorry for the pun), let alone a General, is more than sufficient. We have a Defence Minister who will not last 10 minutes in a debate with a Powell or a Rumsfeld. The Chinese Defence Minister will eat him raw in less than a minute. Read the recent book by a former Expressman, Arun Shourie – Are We Deceiving Ourselves Again – of how an outstanding soldier – Mao - made Nehru look like a boy scout on his first camp. Even after 45 years the Henderson-Brookes Report has not been released.

In 1963, moving the first no-confidence motion after the Chinese debacle, Acharya Kripalani said ” I hope the Defence Minister can defend himself better than he has defended the nation.” Today, for the sake of the country I hope we can get one who can defend the nation and understands the blood group OG. Then he will have no necessity of defending himself. Has any babu spent 40% of his career in non-family stations? What happened to the grandiose plans of George Fernandes to send his secretaries to Siachen for a few days? Look at how your own comrades of the Fifth Column have dealt with the subject. For every article in favour of the armed forces, there are ten favouring the netas and babus. Not surprising since the armed forces do not give you licences etc. Look at the insipid and inane polls your paper carries – ‘Is Naveen Patnaik ineffective’ or ‘Is the Tata-Singur affair harmful to West Bengal’? Perhaps the next important questions will be – ‘Is the Ranbir-Deepika couple more romantic than the Saif-Kareena one’ or ‘whether Ganguly should be dropped’? How about one which asks – Shouldn’t our soldiers be paid more than our netas, babus and police?

Lastly don’t forget that the Chiefs are only fighting for scales from 2007, while the army has been short-changed from around 1957. So who is going to make up for those 50 years – Indian Express?

There are stated and unstated hints and fears that the armed forces have become too big for their boots. This morbid fear is because hardly any neta has ever served in the forces. Assuming that the country is worth taking over, they already have. They have been forced to wear big boots. They are fighting on the borders, fighting insurgency (police work) within the borders, handling floods, earthquakes, tsunamis (all civil work) and very soon will be asked to help in finishing the stadiums for the Commonwealth Games and even win medals. Where do you think the bands and mass parades/drills are going to come from?

They run some of the best schools, best medical college (AFMC) and the best engineering colleges (one in Pune for their children and also the CME). Each of their institutions, from NDA to IMA to DSSC to AWC to NDC, not to mention HAWS and CIWS, is world class. Their cantonments have always been like Singapore, ie better than Shanghai.

Last but not least, their daughters dominate Bollywood and beauty contests. Unfortunately the law does not allow them to get into media or they will beat you there also. They are effectively in charge without sitting in Rashtrapathi Bhavan or Race Course Road because the other arms of state have proved to be totally inept as epitomised by the Home Secretary who said on TV that he is learning and getting his on-the-job-training from every bomb blast. Perhaps the fees are being paid by the lives of the aam aadmis.

Gupta’s article states that it is of national interest. I fully agree. I therefore reserve my right to send my response to the three HQs, the media and such other parties who are interested in national affairs. I am also including Mr. Gupta’s id in this email. The present chiefs may not be Thimayyas or Maneckshaws, but let us see whether Gupta is a Ramnath Goenka, even when we don’t have an emergency. Let’s see whether this article is printed, even in a sanitized form.

Yours faithfully,
T.R.RAMASWAMI

Anonymous said...

Dear Friends,

In this country, we have plethora of a breed called Defence Experts and Security advisors. many professors , retired Genrals. retired Bureaucates. Foreign Srvice officers and IAS inspred / appointed experts.

Thier voices on such a vital issue as "Degradtion Of Service Ranks" is Nowhere to be heard. They all have suddenly hibernated, perhaps under the fear of Bubudom backlash and denial of Babudom largese to these self pronounced experts.

All is quite on their Front.

The Rahim Khanakhan said:

"RAHIMAN WO VIPADA BHALI JO THORE DIN HOYE
HIT ANAHITA YA JAGAT MEN JAAN PARAT SAB KOI"

(That crisis which is short times at times id very good as it an opportunity betwwen the well wishers and trouble makers).

In this time of Crisis many experts have gone missing.....

Ha!!

Anonymous said...

Dear Friends,

First, thank you Navdeep for your service in the armed forces of the Union. Thank you for providing a forum for discussion about the issues relating to military benefits. Your research and the posts by many visitors are truly interesting and insightful.

Though I have been interested in defence issues for a while as a citizen of India and also as a civil servant, my connection to the defence services is more personal. A long long time back, I wanted to join the Air Force. After having cleared the NDA written test and the PABT tests, I was rejected by the Medical Board - my eyes failed me - and I was told that I could join the Army, but not the Air Force or the Navy. Ignoring my father's gentle persuasion, I declined, and went on to complete an engineering degree, and then joined the civil services. So when I hear frustration and anger in many voices here, I think of my friends in school who joined the armed forces. I imagine how I would have felt had my father been more persuasive.

From the little that I know of the Armed Forces, I think the basic HR problem is the steep pyramidical structure of the organization. As some visitors have already pointed out, implementation of the accepted portion of the AVSC report will not be a long-term solution. Lt Gen HS Bagga points out in his interview, (It's not pay - it's a question of status http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=337034), that the most important suggestion of the AVSC is to make “the Short Service Commission (SSC) the prime entry system into the Army", and this has not been accepted by the Government. I do not know why the top brass is not emphasizing this issue. Implementation of this suggestion is likely to benefit both the armed forces, as well as the civilian system when young and professional officers will be available for civilian jobs. Let's face it, the armed forces are not likely to change their pyramidical structure, and the civilian services are not likely to change their cylinderical structure. So, if even there is parity at the top and the bottom of the structure, many middle level defence officers will be forced to stay at the same level if the SSC entry system is not properly implemented.

On the issue of parity, I would like to make a point. I will not discuss the various facilities exclusively available to military officers. But the point is a more general one. Many posters here and elsewhere compare the number of years of service rendered as the metric to measure pay entitlement. Thus, they say that an officer in army gets the rank of Lt Col in 13 years. Navdeep counts the training period also, and says it is 14.5 years even though the government does not grant a payscale to the officer-trainees during the training period. Then they compare it to an IAS Director who gets the NFSG scale in 13 years. What is missed out is the age of entry in the service. According to Navdeep's metric, after completing the NDA training, the officer-trainee will start the Arms-specific-academy training at the age of 19-20. Now, the average age of entry in the IAS for the last few years is around 27. So, basically we are saying that it is all right if a 35 year old Lt Col earns more than a 40 year old JAG IAS officer. By this standard, army officers will earn more than a direct recruit IAS officer of their age for most of their career. Remember, I am stating the average age of the direct IAS recruits, it is likely to be higher for IPS and other civil services, and I am not including the officers who are promoted to the IAS. If you include them also, then it is absolutely clear that a average army officer is at an advantage for most of his career. Of course, most army officers retire early, so there is a disadvantage at the end of their career. That is why the expansion of SSC entry is paramount.

Assuming the civil servant and the military officer have the same 'intelligence' and 'capability' is it fair to give more salary (leave aside exclusive facilities) to a 35 year old Lt-Col than to the civilian officer of the same age. In terms of responsibilities, from a national perspective, I can assure you that civilian officers do not have less important work than their military counterparts.

Now, some people can argue that civil servants are somehow dumb if they take that long to get into government service. Looked objectively, the average age of entry into civil services is a function of the number of attempts allowed and the maximum age allowed for entry . Due to various reasons, in the recent years the maximum age allowed for entry has been quite high. Same is the case for the maximum number of attempts permitted. As is true for any examination, the better prepared stand a better chance for selection. Thus, the higher average age. To reinforce this point, if the maximum age allowed for giving the NDA exam is raised to 24, I bet the average age of entry for the NDA recruits will dramatically go up. Also, it is not that the civil servants are whiling away their time before they enter the service. Most are professionals. A recent survey of IAS officers recruited between 2001 and 2005 shows that only one-third were arts graduates, 13% were science graduates, and a majority had a professional degree: engineers - 25%, medical doctors - 15%, managers (MBAs) - 8%, and lawyers - 6%. I would assume that the statistics for the other civil services are similar.

In fact the Army does recognize that some 'compensation' in the years of service is required for officers who enter in service at a later age due to factors beyond their control. For example, they allow medical specialists and engineers to gain Lt Col rank faster than other officers. Why don't they apply the number of years of service metric here?

Also, why don't we consider the number of years that a paramilitary officer takes to attain a rank and the corresponding period for an officer of the armed forces? The PMFs are working in equally daunting environment. In fact, if you look at the casualty figures, I suspect they are as high, if not higher, in the PMFs/State police forces as in the military. What is worse, most of these deaths in PMF/State police go unsung and unremembered. Then why not have equivalence with them? Why not have equivalence with the civilian officers of other departments (MES, BRO, etc.) within the umbrella of military forces. Again, why should a Lt Gen be senior to a DGP, as is being suggested by some to maintain a command and control structure, if the DGP has put in more years in service than the Lt Gen.

Some posters have commented on the difficult work culture in military as also contributing to the increase in the number of applicants for early retirement. I would agree that those who wish to leave should not be stopped. However, it raises another point. In this age with high worker mobility, retention of talented people is a priority in most private organizations. In government sector taken as a whole, the incentives for performance are weak and disincentives for nonperformance weaker. When better opportunities are available in the private sector, many good workers leave. There is a need for better monetary incentives for better performance to retain talent and a transparent standard to implement such system. Else, at the officer level, government services will attract only those who could not get a decent job in the private sector. This is true both for civilian services and for military services.

Going through many posts, it is hard not to get the impression that the officers of the armed forces do not have a good opinion about the civil servants. There are good reasons for it. In general, the citizens of the country feel that the civil services need much improvement. What I fail to understand is the public display of acrimony and name calling not only by junior military officers in the blogs, but also by retired senior and respectable military officers in the newspapers. One word that had respectable connotation earlier, babu, is attributed pejoratively to all civilian officers. Of course, in this internet age there are new variants, like babooze, seen online. Refer to this piece by General Malik, (Defensible, not Defiance http://www.indianexpress.com/news/defensible-not-defiance/370083/0) where he refers to senior civil servants as babus. But this is not an isolated instance; many other senior defence officers have used derogatory and contemptuous language in public. Now I understand they have their differences, but can they not express them in a better language. I have an uneasy feeling that the source of these sentiments is the 'bloody civilian' mindset of the past generations of military officers that has somehow seeped into the bloodstream of many - or is it most - military officers of this generation.

On the other hand, senior civil servants, serving or retired, though privy to much information about military forces - not all of it positive, have refrained from public utterances decrying the forces. They understand that they have a responsibility not to demoralize the fighting units, but do the senior military officers realize their corresponding responsibility. Respect and restraint cannot be one-sided. Ultimately, gratuitous insults only leave a bad taste in the reader's mouth and spoil working relations.

In most developed countries, under the broad guidance of the political leaders, defence policy is largely framed by civil servants (including diplomats) and military commanders. Nowhere, except in military ruled countries, is the military entrusted exclusively with this task, but then they also exclusively do many more things in these countries. The lack of trust and ill-will (See the opinion of Naresh Chandra, former Cabinet Secretary in Pay spat exposes civilian lack of trust in military http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1197136) that the dispute about the pay commission recommendation has generated is certainly not doing any good for the civilian-military relationship, and while it can be argued that they are rightly fighting for and supporting the stand of the Chiefs, at least it can be expected of the senior military officers not to denigrate other services.

It is often stated that the army comes to the rescue of the administration whether it is insurgency, riots, floods, child-falls-in-tubewell etc. I agree that the civil administration and police should become more competent to deal with such calamities. The State government should raise their capacity, by raising more battalions of state armed forces, equiping home guards better, having better engineering units etc. However, in national disasters it is natural for the armed forces to be called. Also dealing with insurgency is not exclusively a police function; army does tend to be involved. In United States, for example, the States raise units of National Guards that are similar to regular army units but can be deployed by the Governor of the State in an emergency - say a big hurricane. When they are deployed outside - as in Iraq - they come under the control of regular army commander. Should Central Government allow the States to raise such - effectively paramilitary - forces to augment their capacity? Should Central Government finance some of the costs of such units, and retain some control over them? These are questions that will increasingly arise if the officers of the Army feel too superior while assisting civilian authorities.

However, the idea that if a State calls in Army for assistance to civilian authority, it somehow proves that Army is superior to civilian services is deeply flawed. Both instruments of state are financed by the citizens of the country, and their elected representatives can, if need be, call or authorize someone to call one instrument to come to the aid of another.

At the end of this long post, I would request my friends here to focus on the main issue – the need for a bigger SSC entry system. This is costlier for the government to implement than to promote a few officers – which anyway will reduce the effectiveness of the pyramidical structure – and therein lies its reluctance. The AVSC report was authored by a distinguished group of civil and military officers, and the government needs to implement it.



Civilian Officer

Anonymous said...

@ dear civilian officer....

1. first of all may i thank you for such polite comments..
2. but i broadly dont agree with your views because of the following easons..

a. it is a fact that the pay fixation of armed forces is lower than what they were drawing in 5th pay commission.
b. the army is last instrument for any country to use whether it is internal problem or external probem...
c. army is suppose to work under democratic govt not the civil servants..read the definations as given in constitutions..
d. logically army chiefs should only be responsible to CABINET and not to any one else below that..
e. you spoke about the early entry..but u didnt speak about 4 yrs of trg period..isnt civil services count that period as service and count it for promotion also.
f. you also didnt speak about the early retirement age of armed forces people.
g. name any other service which motivates it men to go ahead and face bullets and be ready for supreme sacrifice.

army is not interseted in putting any other service down..rather it is the other way round...

can u give a solid reason as to why the anamolies were introduced by the COS...y they failed to comunicate the same without any justification to the armed forces..?

as u said u wanted to join armed forces..please tell me one thing..WEREN'T U INTERSETED TO JOIN THE AIR FORCE BECAUSE U FELT IT IS A JOB OF RESPECT AND PRIDE ..or u wanted to join it for money...

friend i m a second generation officer and like u a BTECH from NIT AND MTECH FROM IIT AND THAT TOO WITH DISTINCTION.
BUT I JOINED ARMY BECAUSE i felt it was a respectable ,challening and satisfying job..

if u have studied HR then let me tell u as per HR LAWS money only pervents disatisfaction but it doesnt bring satisfaction..

is there any logic in saying that since u r getting MSP THERFORE U PAY CAN BE FIXED AT LOWER GRADES..IT IS THE MOST STUPID LOGIC FINANCE MINISTERY CAN GIVE..

BY THE WAY COUNTER INSURGENCY IS NOT AT ALL THE JOB OF ARMED FORCES..HOME MINISTRY FORCES SHOULD HANDLE IT..IT IS RATHER SHOCKING THAT THEY R GOING AROUND THE WORLD SAYING WE R DOING THE SAME JOB AS ARMY..BULLSHIT..IT IS THEIR JOB WHICH ARMY IS DOING FOR WHATEVER REASONS..SO THE LOGIC SAYS PAY THEIR SALARIES ALSO TO ARMY MEN..

LET ME TELL YOU...THE DAYS PE 1962 ARE NEARING..JUST WAIT.AND WATCH.

Anonymous said...

Dear Ano IAS Sir,


It is absolutely well agreed that the steep Paramedical Structure is the root cause of the problem. The solution lies in making it a little flat and wise spread. While the AIS and IPS have intruded in all Deptts of the Govt and ensured all secretary level positions for themselves, IPS have expanded the Police territory. On the other hand, the defense Forces are denied any lateral inductions and any expansion of their Organizational structure.

Major portion of "Short Service Commission Officers" is nothing but "Availability of Cannon Fodder" Concept. All along the so called responsible Central Services specially the Police have been avoiding the "Idea of Induction through the Army". Why did Bagga not mention that thousand in Para Military Forces and IPS can serve for initial Five years in the Army. Simply because they are elites and not "Cannon Fodder". The elites is so averse to the ideas of serving in the Armed Forces.

various facilities exclusively available to military

This issue has been examined by Six Pay Committees. That has been decided on the "Conditions of Service" and not given as mercy. In fact what is given only in the name. Can an IAS Survive on Rs 30 per day as Ration Allowance or on Rs 30 per day worth Rations. The Free clothing provided to an Army man who crawls on the ground and who is required to be unformed in operations is at pathetic scales. Conduct a Survey and you will come to Know how much a Service Personnel spends on his Uniform and clothing up keeping to look a Soldier of the Indian Union. You all Babus talk theoretical. The extra facilities provided to men in uniforms has many suckers of audits, finance and objection raker Babus in MoD. They make the Services Cry even for those meager facilities. Big Contracts of the facilities are concluded by MoD mandarins and Crores made by them. They have not even left the Canteen Services profits and looted the disproportionate share of it for running their "Sanskriti School". That is an Scandal by itself. Facilities like canteen are extended to Lakhs of Civilians under MoD. You all make too much of it. However, the reality is that IAS wants a pie in that too.


Equation in Years of Service.

IAS has even neutralized the four years of late entry into the Service by granting themselves four increments. Their late entry into the Service is their folly and not a constraint or restraint. The age of entry is 22 years. If one enter the service at 28 years why should the one who entered at 23 years be panelized. Follow this Norms within the Cadre first and then Pontificate on the logic of it. Within IAS, an officer who enters the service at 22 and one who enters the service at 26 years should be treated equal. First apply that within the Cadre then heap that injustice on others. As IAS you all have not only heaped injustices on others but due to four increments, you have granted your self money equivalent to or more than "Military Service pay". It was simply a Conspiracy that at thirteen years of Service and with four increments in your pockets and having attained Pay Band of the Colonel the "Director will be even senior to a Colonel. Dear Sir, grant some intelligence to the Service Officers too. It is perhaps our "Praarabhda" that you are there and we are here. Give me a ministry and I can run it better than many of you.

have very good Answer to all your misconceptions which I shall provide point by point.

I am in hurry to attend an errand.
Regards.

Ajith said...

@ Civilian Officer Oct 12 11:53AM
Dear Sir,
I must appreciate you for having taken out such a nice deceptive article in the first place.
Thanks for all the good things that you spoke about defence sevices and its officers. And for the other things and the sorry state of todays affairs, Sir it is not the services or its Chiefs or its officers are to blame. It is this same deception that is practiced by the civil services and bureaucracy that you represent has brought this shame on this great nation where military is forced to speak and do things which it wants to do last. We are better off doing things to assist the civil administration even though we know that it is not for this job that we are recruited, trained and paid (?).
Now Sir, would you be inclined to give us the existing parity (pre-VI CPC) back till such time that you implement all those reforms that you spoke in your long post like SSC entry, Pyramidical to Cylindrical and all that?. If you could give a similar lecture to your friends in the civil services then it will spare us the effort and keep those using lowly language at bay. There can't be a better service that you can do for the nation.

Anonymous said...

Dear Civilian Officer

Thanks for putting your views in a candid and forthright manner. Your views give a general insight into what the civil services think about armed forces. These views also tell us how deliberate and/or unintentional misinformation about armed forces working culture has skewed this understanding. I will not try to correct or modify your perceptions as you are a man of letters yourself and well capable of forming your opinions, right or wrong.

As you have said that main trouble is hierarchical. And you wonder why top brass is not talking about SSC on a large scale. I am sure they are talking about it, but ultimately it is the cabinet that has to approve or disapprove such things. There is a reason why our forefathers have chosen to keep the structure devoid of conscripts and SSC. In my view, SSC can only fulfill requirements in the short run. If you want healthy and professional armed forces, you have to have dedicated young men and women who are ready to take this career with passion. Similar is the case with the pyramidal hierarchy. It is a time tested and proven hierarchy that has withstood number of wars, external and within. How to make it less stagnant within the current framework is a challenge indeed and I believe Armed Forces themselves should come out with solutions rather than allow people to wallow in mediocrity of stagnation.

Your assertion about allowing a chap elder in age to draw more salary than a younger one is humorous, to say the least. The natural justice says that two people with similar qualifications at the time of entry should get equal salary depending upon the number of years of service. I am no one to say that people opting for IAS should do so early in life, but if they are joining in late, it is due to conscious decision making. How and why should it deprive a younger man his due in terms of parity, is something I find hard to digest. You do mention the early age retirement of a defence person, but how it equates with salary drawing potential of a civil service officer, has completely skipped your attention.

Regarding your argument of CPMF doing equal amount of hard work. Yes, there is no denying that CPMF has its task cut out. The question is not that of making CPMF lower in status to armed forces but disturbing an already existing balance. It is again disservice to natural justice that amongst two equals, one should be chosen to more worthy than another. It smacks of conspiracy. If it is not conspiracy, then it smacks of utter ignorance of social justice as well as complete disregard for safety of nation. As per your argument regarding placing Lt Gen in HAG+, please see the CENTRAL ORDEROF PRECEDENCE
(Issued vide President’s Secretariat Notification No. 33-Press/79,dated the 26th July, 1979)available here : http://sampark.chd.nic.in/images/acts/p_chap2.pdf. All defence forces are asking for is maintaining this document that has the sanctity of President's office.

Regarding your comments on how defence service officers do not think highly about their civilian counter parts. I would say it is akin to the case of painting the whole community terrorist. Going by historical precedents, babu was a terminology that was sought after as in "sarkari daftar mein badey babu ho gaye hain". How it has become a derogatory is anybody's guess. Just like the common name given to Armed Forces is "Fauji"; which all of us take pride in, the common term given to civil secretariat is babu, which I guess is not much to liking of civilian friends.

Your desire in having a civil-military co-operation in formulating national strategy is surely commendable and is much desirable. But practical experience shows only the contrary where the very ministry entrusted with maintaining the edge of armed forces professionally is busy subverting it. In order to restore the confidence of armed forces in bureaucracy, Civil services will have to point out people responsible for this subversion and ensure such mistakes do not happen again.

Your assertion regarding armed forces helping in national calamities does nothing but raise the bogey of center-state relations. If the very agencies meant for handling such situations are kept inept purposefully (yet considered higher in parity to armed forces who will be asked to do their job), then police and CPMF will always stay dependent upon armed forces. Why should states not have dedicated guards like structure which responds to calamities. In fact IAS should accept it readily as it would give them another avenue to spread themselves.Armed forces are entrusted with defence of borders constituted by land, air and sky. If the nation has to spend more money to raise calamity handling forces or make police/CPMF more professional to handle such emergencies as efficiently as armed forces, then so be it! It is for this reason alone that MHA is considered the most powerful ministry in this country.

You say that armed forces should be called in when all else fails and I fully agree with you. But is it not ironical that the very institute that you admit to be the last bastion, is not considered worthy of parity?

As far as bigger SSC is concerned, i think the prime reason defence forces exist today is because of discipline. SSC, our present experience shows, is the single most reason for seepage of indiscipline. In addition, it would be viable for youngsters only if there is enough meat available in the form of post-commission remuneration, which is completely non-existent as of today. If you are looking for plain canon fodder, then again SSC is like a wet fuse.

It has turned out to be a long post indeed. I have not touched upon points already answered in earlier comments. I must thank you for your candid and forthright comments again as it does provide an insight into the differences between civil and military. I would request you to share more of your thoughts with us so that the communication gap that exists between "the Steel frame" and "The Last Bastion" can be narrowed to extinction.

Rohit said...

@ Civilian Officer
I may be mistaken but could not see anywhere in your post that you are/were an IAS officer.

What was that about a 35 yrs oid Lt Col earning more than a 40 yrs old JAG IAS? Salary is for serving the nation and not for your attempts preparing for IAS. Duh?

I would even state that if one commits oneself to the nation's service at 16/17, he deserves more than one who tries out all avenues and attempts and finally joins IAS at 27.

Please pardon me if you do belong to the IAS, because I always felt they understand logic.

Anonymous said...

@ Civilian Officer
Your comment has not touched on the most important difference between babus and faujis - CORRUPTION. Almost akin to the detective story in which the dog did not bark. Overall, 95% of babus do not survive on their pay alone, while 95% of faujis survive just on their pay. And then we are not even given parity with PMF! We must be the only nation treating our forces in this degrading fashion. Why does the aam aadmi say in Bihar that we only trust the Army to distribute relief? Not the babus, police or PMF but the Army. Ponder on that for it is a national disgrace. But is anyone ashamed?

Anonymous said...

A Forces Officer Answer a Civil Babu


My Dear Civilian Officer Friend,

Further to my reply which I had to leave in between at the Post Ano !2.56 PM.

(underline)Grant of Ante date Seniority In he Army:(underline)

The basic qualification required to enter the Armed Forces as an Officer is Graduate plus one years training. That is the Qualification for IAS / IPS and Other Central Govt Class A Services. Now in spite of that that are many in the Armed Forces who are post graduates at the time of entry with 24 years of age. Do you mean to say they should be given two years seniority. What logic are you extending? The government does not say they want M Tech/ B Techs and Ph as IAS / IPS Officers. If you are one it is on your Volition. regarding upper age limit, that is a political decision so as to allow more OBCs, so called Back wards, SC and ST to enter service as they are supposed to take more time to compete amongst themselves. That does not mean they should be seniors.

You are asking the Govt Triple advantages. Firstly allow you to enter late. Allow you to earn before you enter and prepare for the exams at the Cost of the Govt. Thirdly grant you seniority over others due to late entry. You must be an absolute wreck even to voice such preposterous thing. Are you all guys above the Constitution. You do not understand what is the fundamental right of "equality". You remain in JNU etc for six years shouting slogans while the young officer in the army is sweating his ass out and risking his life so that you could study to become IAS. When you become you should be made senior because you screwed yourself in life. Unimaginable thoughts and ideas. If Civil Servants of this Country, as you claim your self to be, advance such cocked arguments, you need to be sent back to your college for some education rather than hold a post of some civil servant.

Army gives two years ante date seniority to the Doctors and Post Graduate technicals because their QR and Educational Qualifications requirements are such that they will have to spent two years more to attain that qualification. Plain and simple.

What is the educational qualification required to be an IAS/ IPS?? Graduation. Average age for passing Graduation is 21 years. Number of attempts including Graduation Final years attempt are three . So final cut off age for entry should have been 23 years. Well that is how it is for the graduates for entry in the Armed forces. That you all are allowed to fart around to be IAS/ IPS Up to 32 years is a "political and other requirements" and not functional requirements of Class A services.

I feel like scratching my hairs off.

Such silly arguments have made the "Committee of Secretaries" to recommend two increments each at 6 years and 13 years of Service for their IAS Bandhus.. The Cabinet has been mislead mis advised and made a fool by IAS subversion. Cabinet may have approved it but it is "Unconstitutional" and liable to Challenged in any Court of law, it being against the Fundamental Right of "Equality". Government, Cabinet or any one can not infringe any ones Fundamental Rights including the Armed Forces right of equality. There are bound to be a plethora of Litigation on this subject. moreover the Parliament can not keep quite over this issue. I am also a Tax Payer and As a Citizen I protest IAS being given four increment just for nothing and no valid lawful reasons.

Ask Cabinet to Change Basic qualification of IAS to be Post Graduate plus two years MBA. The OBC, ST and SC will eat all of you up and banish that Govt for ever. Ask Lalu Ji if I am wrong. You all are stuck up. Your Conspiracy and treachery is out of the Cupboard. You are arguing a lame duck case.

Dr Mammon Sing, the Honorable PM and the Honorable FM, PC Chidamabaram, have has been taken for a ride by the IAS "Committee of Secretaries".

I as a member of the Armed Forces will demand on the logic advanced by IAS Lobby that I must be given full increments and pay up to the Age, a Cabinet Secretary retires, at my superannuation. As I am not being allowed to serve up to the age of Cab Secys service, it is my service disadvantage. If IAS can be given Increments for late entry why Armed Forces not be given increment and full pay for the early retirement. Armed Forces have a very very strong case in view of this. IAS gets four increments without any compulsions for "Conditions of Service" and is also allowed to serve upto 60 years and take home Secretaries pay. Why not on the similar anomaly, a retiring Lt Col be allowed Pension and Pay of Secretary at the time of retirement since as the IAS all retire at the level of Secretaries. This, moreover is due to functional requirement of the Organization and not to individual fault.

I will strongly recommend the Armed Forces to take up this case to protect their fundamental right of "Equality". Maj Navddep may start preparing these cases which will invariably come up on behalf of individual officers. These are genuine valid and strong legally tenable cases pushing Armed Forces Officers to retire at lower scales that the IAS officers of the same years of Service even if he attains equivalent rank. This is simply outrageous, unlawful and unconstitutional. Other services of the Central Govt may bear this outlandish Joke as they also have similar tarted conditions at the time of entry but why should Armed Forces accept this Joke, particularly when their officers are being placed at a great disadvantage at the time of
retirement.

Granting this kind of Increments effects the three Service Chiefs and the Army Commandersand equivallants the most including all others. The secretaries and the The Cab Secy will land up earning more pensions than those even after serving the Govt of India four years less. More Service, less than equal satus and more pension?? What a Joke...

What rubbish.???? This is plain Nonsense.

Anonymous said...

@All folks

Have you observed that the MES jerks have vanished ever since Maj Navdeep pasted on his blog this mythbuster and the CAT case which called their bluff. They had already taken their case to Court and lost and the Court on the contrary had held that Directors / SEs are junior to Col.

Wonder why these things were being hidden earlier.

Anonymous said...

Yar sorry but...

This the Defence Forces Battle for a good Cuase...for every one and all of..

Do not bring in your individual issues like MES and BROs her..

Whereas the entire defence forces will be with you...the fact reamins that you all are Jerks in MEs and BRO...

A Civialin may listen to the genuine requirement of an Army Officer but Not the Army Guy in MEs or BRO....that unfortunately is the ground reality...

So do not talk of these issues..ignore it...when times comes..all Army jerks of MES and NRO need solid sorting out...

Wait for it...

Anonymous said...

My brethren in uniform - it is indeed a sad day for Mother India that its valiant men who have and maybe would continue to shed blood to keep India's borders safe and the country united together, have received such shabby treatment...It seems to be reflective of the larger malaise that has crept into our society at large with unscrupulous politicians and bureaucrats with vested interests wielding positions of enormous importance. Add this to the era where visionary leadership is totally lacking and you have the situation that we face....Can our ESM provide some visionary leaders!!!!???

In this era of turmoil is it not time that the educated citizens of India get together to create a new political entity which could influence decision making and lead India in the 21st century. Could some of our retired Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals lead from the front in creating such a political entity. The road that is being suggested is certainly not an easy one but it would certainly be better that merely increasing "sound bytes" over the internet. Lets take this on as yet another challenge like we have taken to living at the icy heights of Siachen or in the cramped confines of a sub or while defending the skies till now.....

I feel its also the appropriate time to seek the integration of the MOD as was proposed post Kargil by Mr K Subrahmanyam - a renowned strategic analyst and former BUREAUCRAT himself. It is also time that the Chiefs insist that our friends in the MOD (Directors and above who seem to know so much about the forces ENJOYING PERKS) spend time at field locations for some time to know how difficult conditions are...and its also time for the services to stop making VIP arrangements for such visits. By doing so we have conveyed an impression that the forces are having a picnic in forward areas in the North East or in J&K or wherever....Incidentally MY DEAR CIVILIAN OFFICER Sir we are fighting scourge of terrorism today in J&K as well as the North East - not to forget the Maoists because the civilian administration has FAILED (that's incidentally a mild word to use) TO PROVIDE FOR EVEN LEGITIMATE NEEDS OF THE COMMON MAN.....and you know it as well as I do that India can no longer be called a poor country. There has never been any death of funds for development....The will and the drive to ensure that those funds reach and benefit the man on the street has always been lacking...

Its time for the services too to set their own house in order and integrate - now lets not get into a situation which invites something like a Goldwater-Nichols Department of Defense Reorganization Act of the United States....Future wars will almost invariably be short and swift and these would demand integrated operations and not mere lip service in the realm of jointmanship.

Lets hope our GOM sees beyond the smoke screen created by the bureaucrats....I hope you read this Civilian officer - for someone who has been in the corridors of power you seem relatively naive to believe that induction of SSC would be panacea of all evils in the armed forces...some of your comments about benefits to the forces I would rather not even bother to retort...All I ask is please send your son (or daughter) to the forces for after all it appears to be an uncherished ambition of yours.

MERAA BHARAT MAHAAN

Anonymous said...

My Dear "Mera Bharat Mahan" ,

I agree with you emotions and spirits entirely and in Toto.

Sun Tzsu said..

"Know yourself and your enemy..any one who knows him self can save himself of the Scourge but any one who knows his enemy need not fears the consequences of thousand battles"

Does it sound of any meaning to you and all of us.

Reading and reading and getting educated is the best methods of liberation and emancipations of the illusions of Maya..says Hindu Religion. It empowers you..

If you read Indian History that Great man called Nehru was shit scared and apprehensive of the Armed Forces because in his time Armed Forces all over the third World Countries and in our neighborhood were taking over the Civil and democratic entities (of Course at the behest of the Imperialist USA).

The Bureaucracy took best advantage of it and made themselves Supreme. In the copetive invornement they left all pretension of natioan Interests.They ensures Armed Forces were treated badly , their leaders slighted and their leaders humiliated. They parctices the ideas of "Slavery of the Uniformed" in the name of supremeacy of civil shirts. They worked Day in and Night over to show the Armed Forces in bad light. Nehru was so brain washed that that he could not even tolerate the mere mention of the power hungry Uniform peopel whaich never ever existed in reality.

In spite of that, He was such a Great Political personality, that when Thimaya resigned..He persuaded him amicably to withdraw his resignation. rather than arresting him and putting behinfd bars as per the advise of many of his ICS bum chums.. It is another issue that Krishna Menon the Kerala Communist barked on every one and in conjunction of the conspiracy of his Communist Friends in the Bureaucracy.. He was hell bent on destroying the Defense Institutions.

It must be stated to the great foresight and Vision of Nehru that what ever little self sufficiency we achieved in Defense Production was his dedicated brain child... he had very lofty and high ideals about India..Its Armed Forces and its might.The only man who understood the meaning of Armed Might of a Country in his time was Nehru..He never Harmed Indian Armed Forces but all his Cronies like Bhatias, Mullicks, < BM koul etc did. and Did acts that finfished the Great Ledaer..

Even after the humiliating and great defeat, these villinous Bureaucratic "Chatus" made him believe that Armed Forces let him down.. whereas as the Matter of the Fact, as known to the world and every well educated man in India, it were that his Foreign Office and Intelligence Bureaucrat coupled with his Communist Minister of Defense, Krishna Menon, and mainly upstart foreign Office lankies whaich had destroyed him. Thank God for small mercies that many ICS Officers (now IAS) did not play a big role except for letting down the Indian Army down.

After that it was a phase of shameful withdrawal and seclusion..but natural. In 1965, when it was a period of reposing some (some) faith on the Armed Forces, we were able to just hold on to ourselves and beat back a Us supported Pakistani attack. Sardar Swaran Sing and Shastry did not carry any malice against Armed Forces. heir faith saved the nation.

Then came Bangladesh Crisis. The great Sam Boy, who the Bureaucracy hate so much as not to have provided a proper funeral to him, was able to to establish personal report with the most private Individual called Smt Indira Gandhi. Since No IAS, Foreign Service or lackey Intelligence officials had to play a role, the military Campaign was spectacular and most successful military Campaign after the Second World War..and Unparalleled till this day...

Shri Arjun Singh does not want it to be included in the text books as one of the largest Military Victories of the epoch, is his Problem..the nation under Indira did achive a big National Aim inspite of US threats.

Let us Not forget the role played by the R&AW and heroic personalty of Smt Gandhi whom Shri Vajpai described in the Parliament post Bangladesh war as "Durga Maata"..that was so magnanimous of an opposition leader whaich was absent during his tenure as PM...

After, 1971 phase, fearing in the influence of the Military the Combined assault on the Armed Forces was launched by the Foreign Service, the IAS and the IB, who had been sidelined earlier. Manekshaw in his Glory and his successors could not visualize the Conspiracy of the Bureaucracy "to cut the Armed Forces to the Size".

Post 1971, there was gradual, subtle but planned degradation of the Armed Forces by the Bureaucracy. The Biggest harm was done by Shri KC Pant and many successive Governments.

During Shri Rajive's time the Armed Forces got a fillip when that visionary man appointed Arun Sing whose report is still very modern and visionary. However, the Foreign Office IFS and IAS scuttled every move and every effort to place the Armed Forces in their correct place and perspective. From there, the denigration of Armed Forces Started in full swing and in a big way.

The appropropriate opportuniteis were seized by the Bureaucracy of MoFA Due to Ex Brass Tacks and Ex Cahequred Board. the foreign affairs ministry officils and IAS painted Arun Nehru and Armed Forces as billigerents. Then again due to "Chequred Board" the Indian Foreign services painted Sunderjee black and Cina as right. One shuudderes for those days how a Foreign Services Goon would shout in his madness.

The final straw and downfall of the Armed Forces came when Dixit of Foreign Services ill advised the young Rajeev and led him into the catastrophe in "Srilanka". Dixit used to behave like a Tyrant and arrogant Field Marshall of the Army. I interacted with him many times and must say that he had deep rooted psychological abonormalities of behaviour.He not only got thousands of Indian soldiers killed but also ultimately the young lad Rajeev also killed.
Dixit was such an ass that he used to order killing of certian People ...when General Sirdeshpande used to tell him to just conc off and not order such bRazen stupid things..he used to Pontificate as many younf IAS bloaks are doing tody..."I am executive carry Out My order"..without knowing the legal positions...

Such can be the consequences of following the advise of Willy foxy cunning and self serving egoist Bureaucrats. The gereral is Sacked and a Great Leder of the Country gets assassinated. insipte of that Babaus in MoD and Dixit in MEA laugh over it with pegs of Scotch. Let me assure you young terks that I have seen it with my own eys.

Congress party , the IAS and the Foreign Service targeted the Army and its Generals for the stupid blunders they had committed themselves and led to our beloved leader of the Country into death trap. Gen Sunderjee was gravly dihonoured. Radrigues was dishonoured as he dishonoured his own gereals like Sir Depshpande. What a shame..IAS babudom of MoD decimated the General without any mercy....

Then biggest jolt to the Armed Forces was imparted by the Socialist International, London based IAS organization Leader Shri Joerge Fernadeze who even went to the extent of Supporting the Myanmar rebels against the Armed Forces (he slpped one of the Charges in bhagawat as being responsible for the casulties of Myanmar Rebels for which No instruction existed) Do not worry i am not spilling beans as it all exist in print and I am onlt quottibg. I dare not say any thing against the ex minister unless it is in international print. The famous Unionists leader George Fernandez and famous Workers leader slpped a great damadge on CNS with the false sense that CNS is not a leader of the men. He thought a rebel, branded terrorist and sabotuer once only could be workers man but not CNS. How wrong was he about knowing Military leadership which is much more dadicted to their men that the Marx in his grave.

That stupid man just to appease an Akali Nominee, Herjinder Sing as the Vice Chief of Navy, sacked Bhagwat. It was perhaps for the first time in his life career as politician that Vajpais Great stature become that of a pygmy. Read Panchtantra on the advantes and losses due to Friendship. Such was the great loss due to friendship of Fernandese.

Overall, all the Politicians except a very few, and including the Lalu and Mulayam, Mayawati ji, have always been supportive of the Armed Forces. Those who have been named, were thoroughly subverted by the bureaucracies.

The Communists to their credit have been neutrals and not critical. That shows their maturity and understanding.

There has never been vocal hatred and opposition to the Armed Forces from the Political quarters. People blame Nehru but he never crossed the limits though his ministers. Alas his Bureaucracy did all harm. India showed Supreme caliber in handling the Defense Forces, Rajjev was all out supportive.

The real bane of the Armed Forces is the inimical Foreign Services and the IAS. IAS has domination issues of Control but the Foreign Service has turf Control issues with the Armed Forces. Both these services are very afraid of the Armed forces. They always directed Armed Forces ire at the Police considering Armed Forces to be fools. But let me tell you that IPS/ Police never had any issue with the Armed Forces in spite of the myth build up by IAS and the Foreign Services that the interest of the Armed Forces and Police clash.

Well, my fiends, that is my personal experiences. It could be very enlightening and fantastic or very bad. But that is the truth for me due to my personal experiences. I have amicably worked with all of these agencies with detachment. But these guys are not comaprable any where to the sincerity honesty and innocence of the Armed Forces Officers. they are unrelaible, crooks, insinsicere and liers sychophants. Ver Unfortunate though.

The solution...

work hard ..be intelligent...be devoted..read and educated your self more than these bloaks....

Armed Forces of India were the best and shall Continue to be best...old guys have done their bit..now it is your turn...

I assure you these guys are shit scared of your standards and calibre..do kick on their butts but only when you show your better quality and Caliber to them...rememebr...IAS are arroagnts...Foreign Services people need to be beaten at their stupid cunning games. Only Armed Forces Officers are as Polished, suave and perfect that they can beat allof then\m at their war games..

Halat Itani Buri Nahin hai...

Let you always be on top.. but work day and night and very very hard for it..it callas for grand devotion and dedication which an average service Officer is capable of it.. May be tomorrow due to Service Constraints I shall not be able to convey my self to all of you like this..

F*** these PB-4 and other issue for the time being ...your Capabilities will fetch you PB-10. At every step, on every move, at every official interaction prove yourseld to be better guardians od Mother India than some of these Turn Coates.... The "Chatoos"..

Jai Hind..


Jai Hind..

Indian007 said...

A Blog is meant to give everyone an opportunity to air his/her point of view. But the problenm begins when the forum is used to air viewsof some groups with vested interests. The same has been done by this blog by publishing this piece. While it has been highlighted that the Armed Forces have to bring in to action the mandate of the Govt., where is it written that the Govt. mandate means the will of the bureaucrats. And this arrangement essentially pertains to the Policy decisions of the Govt. Today the governance inb this country has gone to abyss of incompetence where the bureaucracy is just serving its interests. The sixth Pay Commission is just another example of it where the IAS lobby has exhibitred so much of greed it has bitten more than it can chew, resulting in wide disparity between them and the others. This time thier gameplan has been exposed. Now they are using these Blogs to divert the attention of the Govt. and the general public by raising the non-issue of the protests by the Armed Forces.
The strength of any organisation is judged by the morale of its men. In recent times while the civil bureaucracy has become one of the most corrupt service in the country and cause of misgovernance, the Armed Forces have been epitomising what a true nation building organisation should be. As the saying goes " THERE ARE TWO WAYS OF BEING THE TALLEST TREE IN THE JUNGLE; EITHER YOU GROW BY YUOUR OWN MIGHT OF CUT ALL THE TREES AROUND YOU", the civil services which are today so badly infested with the termites of corruption can not repair themselves and so arev trying their best to bring down the morale of the Armed Forces by constantly and continuously trying to attack at the percieved (by them!!!) foundations of Forces. They have degraded the Armed Forces status over the last few decades. They have been able to do this because all representations and protests by the Armed Forces have been put into the bureaucratic loop without redressal. This time their bluff has been caught. it is out in public domain how the IAS lobby misguided even the cabinet and the CoS rather than acting as a "COMMITTEE OF SECRETARIES" has acted a "COMMITTEE OF SELF SERVING BUREAUCRATS".
Two wrongs do not make a right and so if the civil services lobby has done harm to the Armed Forces in the past, the same can not be quoted as an authority to do more wrong. The logic that the Job Profile of Lt Cols has changed over a period of time is nothing short of hilarious. If the author had tried to look in to how the Civil services has downgraded themselves in order to get more vacancies. Today the IAS and IPS are even resorting to manipulating the appointment nomenclatures, deputations, and even grossly interfering in to te fuctioning of so called Autonomous and Quasi autonomous organisation by occupying slots and postings in them.
This issue needs a deeper introspection by the civil bureaucracy before it snowballs in to something more severe. This issue doen't involve just the Armed Forces but also other Govt. Employees who have felt cheated by the IAS lobby. The Armed Forces have just presented their resrvations in themost dignified way while carrying out thier duties dilligently unlike what happens in civvie street(Dharnas, strikes, Damaging Govt. Property and so on). The fact that enough merit was found in their demands to merit establishing a "Group of Ministers" by the Prime Minister speaks volumes of the evil designs some groups were having to demoralise the Armed Forces. Now to question even the wisdom of the Prime Minister, shows the level of frustration these groups have reached. It is high time everybody wakes up and takes a notice of it. There is rather a need of stronger reforms at the level of Bureaucratic Governance to clip the wings of this so called group civil servants who are holding the whole nation to ranson by breaking all the levels of incompetence resulting in the quagmire that our country is in today.

INDIAN007 said...

THIS REPLY HAS BEEN POSTED BY ME INRESPONSE TO AN ANTI ARMED FORCES ARTICLE ON www.staffcorner.com

A Blog is meant to give everyone an opportunity to air his/her point of view. But the problenm begins when the forum is used to air viewsof some groups with vested interests. The same has been done by this blog by publishing this piece. While it has been highlighted that the Armed Forces have to bring in to action the mandate of the Govt., where is it written that the Govt. mandate means the will of the bureaucrats. And this arrangement essentially pertains to the Policy decisions of the Govt. Today the governance inb this country has gone to abyss of incompetence where the bureaucracy is just serving its interests. The sixth Pay Commission is just another example of it where the IAS lobby has exhibitred so much of greed it has bitten more than it can chew, resulting in wide disparity between them and the others. This time thier gameplan has been exposed. Now they are using these Blogs to divert the attention of the Govt. and the general public by raising the non-issue of the protests by the Armed Forces.
The strength of any organisation is judged by the morale of its men. In recent times while the civil bureaucracy has become one of the most corrupt service in the country and cause of misgovernance, the Armed Forces have been epitomising what a true nation building organisation should be. As the saying goes " THERE ARE TWO WAYS OF BEING THE TALLEST TREE IN THE JUNGLE; EITHER YOU GROW BY YUOUR OWN MIGHT OF CUT ALL THE TREES AROUND YOU", the civil services which are today so badly infested with the termites of corruption can not repair themselves and so arev trying their best to bring down the morale of the Armed Forces by constantly and continuously trying to attack at the percieved (by them!!!) foundations of Forces. They have degraded the Armed Forces status over the last few decades. They have been able to do this because all representations and protests by the Armed Forces have been put into the bureaucratic loop without redressal. This time their bluff has been caught. it is out in public domain how the IAS lobby misguided even the cabinet and the CoS rather than acting as a "COMMITTEE OF SECRETARIES" has acted a "COMMITTEE OF SELF SERVING BUREAUCRATS".
Two wrongs do not make a right and so if the civil services lobby has done harm to the Armed Forces in the past, the same can not be quoted as an authority to do more wrong. The logic that the Job Profile of Lt Cols has changed over a period of time is nothing short of hilarious. If the author had tried to look in to how the Civil services has downgraded themselves in order to get more vacancies. Today the IAS and IPS are even resorting to manipulating the appointment nomenclatures, deputations, and even grossly interfering in to te fuctioning of so called Autonomous and Quasi autonomous organisation by occupying slots and postings in them.
This issue needs a deeper introspection by the civil bureaucracy before it snowballs in to something more severe. This issue doen't involve just the Armed Forces but also other Govt. Employees who have felt cheated by the IAS lobby. The Armed Forces have just presented their resrvations in themost dignified way while carrying out thier duties dilligently unlike what happens in civvie street(Dharnas, strikes, Damaging Govt. Property and so on). The fact that enough merit was found in their demands to merit establishing a "Group of Ministers" by the Prime Minister speaks volumes of the evil designs some groups were having to demoralise the Armed Forces. Now to question even the wisdom of the Prime Minister, shows the level of frustration these groups have reached. It is high time everybody wakes up and takes a notice of it. There is rather a need of stronger reforms at the level of Bureaucratic Governance to clip the wings of this so called group civil servants who are holding the whole nation to ranson by breaking all the levels of incompetence resulting in the quagmire that our country is in today.

Ajith said...

Heard of one 'Pragmatic...'
I did say in an earlier post that we can beat him at his game on his own turf.
We have succeeded in trouncing him in his blog post 'Shekhar Gupta is right...'.
Come and celebrate.
http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/2008/10/05/shekhar-gupta-is-right/#comment-9910

Anonymous said...

look at This. This is pay rules for IPS after scpc-2008
3. In rule 3 of the said rules, for sub-rule (1), the following sub-rule shall be
substituted, namely :-
"(1) Pay-Bands and Grade Pays. - The pay bands and grade pays
admissible to a member of the Service and the dates with effect from
which the said pay bands and grade pays shall be deemed to have come
into force, shall be as follows:-
A. Junior Scale -
Pay-Band - 3: Rs.15600-39100 plus Grade Pay Rs.5400;
B. Senior Scale -
(i) Senior Time Scale- Pay-Band - 3: Rs.15600-39100 plus Grade
Pay Rs.6600.;
(ii) Junior Administrative Grade-
Pay-Band - 3: Rs.15600-39100; plus Grade Pay Rs.7600;
(iii) Selection Grade :-
Pay-Band - 4: Rs.37400-67000; plus Grade Pay Rs.8700;
C Super Time Scale:
(i) Deputy Inspector General of Police -
Pay-Band - 4: Rs.37400-67000; plus Grade Pay Rs.8900;
(ii) Inspector General of Police -
Pay-Band - 4: Rs.37400-67000; plus Grade Pay Rs.10000;
D Above Super Time Scale -
(i) Additional Director General of Police -
Pay-Band - 4: Rs.37400-67000; plus Grade Pay Rs.12000;
(ii) HAG +: Rs.75500- (annual increment@ 3%)-80000 ;
Grade Pay: nil;
(iii) Apex Scale: Rs.80000 (fixed),Grade Pay: nil (by
upgradation of one existing post of Director General of Police
as head of police force in the each State cadre);
(with effect from the date of issue of notification of the
Indian Police Service (Pay)Amendment Rules, 2008);
Note 1: Appointment of a member of the Service to the Senior Time Scale and
above shall be regulated as per the provisions in the Guidelines regarding
promotion to various grades in the Indian Police Service.
Provided that a member of the Service shall be eligible for appointment to
the Senior Time Scale on his completion of four years of service, subject to the
provisions of sub-rule 2 of rule 6A of the Indian Police Service (Recruitment)
Rules, 1954, to the Junior Administrative Grade on completion of nine years of
service, to the Selection Grade on completion of thirteen years of service, to the
Deputy Inspector General Super Time Scale on completion of fourteen years of
service and to the Inspector General Super Time Scale on completion of
eighteen years of service.
Provided further that a member of the service shall be appointed to the
Junior Administrative Grade only after he has completed phase III mandatory
Mid Career Training as specified by the Central Government.
Note 2: The post of Director General of Police in the apex scale shall be
filled by selection from amongst the officers holding the post of Director General
of Police in the State cadre in the HAG+scale of Rs.75500-(annual increment @
3%)- 80000.
Note 3: Whenever any Indian Administrative Service officer of the State or
Joint Cadre is posted at the Centre to a particular grade carrying a specific
grade pay in pay band 3 or pay band 4, the members of Service, who are senior
to such Indian Administrative Service officer by two years or more and have not
so far been promoted to that particular grade, shall be appointed to the same
grade on non -functional basis from the date of posting of the Indian
Administrative Service officer in that particular grade.
Note 4: The four years, nine years, thirteen years, fourteen years and eighteen
years of service in this rule shall be calculated from the year of allotment
assigned under rule 3 of the Indian Police Service (Regulation of Seniority)
Rules, 1954.
Note 5: The period of extraordinary leave taken otherwise than on medical
certificate or considered by the State Government concerned to have been taken
for any cause beyond the control of the member of the Service or for prosecuting
studies, which are in public interest and for which Study Leave could otherwise
be admissible under the All India Service (Study Leave) Regulations, 1960, shall
be excluded for the purpose of calculating the eligibility period of service
required for appointment in these grades:

Anonymous said...

For them all this happens in a jiffy.For Armed Forces it takes months.Sad state of affairs.Read this(From whispers in the corridors)
Finance Minister P Chidambaram has reportedly agreed and signed on a proposal to hike the Pay Scales of Members of Central Board of Direct Taxes to Secretary to GoI scale i.e. Rs.80,000 per month. Further, the FM has agreed to accord Secretary to GoI scale to all Cadre controlling Chief Commissioners/Director General's of Income-Tax. This move shall put to rest all discords of the IRS.

Anonymous said...

Hello Friends,

Thank you for your comments on my post made at October 12, 11:53 AM. I take this opportunity to elaborate on a few points/comments.

First, let me reiterate that I am no expert on military affairs. Indeed, I have never worked in the Defence Ministry. But I strongly believe that all Indians should take an active interest in the internal and external security of the country. I have a little more acquaintance with the internal security, but let it pass.

It seems that many of you have issues with the expansion of the SSC entry proposed by AVSC - maybe you are right, as for me I chose to place my trust in the judgment of a committee of senior military and civil officers. It will be interesting to learn how the militaries of developed countries are handling the problems you describe with their short-service recruitments.

Now some specific points:

Anon at 12:25 PM:

" as u said u wanted to join armed forces..please tell me one thing..WEREN'T U INTERSETED TO JOIN THE AIR FORCE BECAUSE U FELT IT IS A JOB OF RESPECT AND PRIDE ..or u wanted to join it for money…"

True. I also looked forward for the sheer adventure; I don't think at that time I even thought as to what I was going to be paid.

"friend i m a second generation officer and like u a BTECH from NIT AND MTECH FROM IIT AND THAT TOO WITH DISTINCTION."

It is great to know that people of your caliber are proudly defending our country. I respect your dedication. As the sophistication of the defence equipment that we use rises, the country will need more highly technically qualified people in the forces. Don't take it otherwise, and I have much respect for your excellent academic achievements, but it is sufficient to mention here that mine will not be viewed any less favourably.

"BY THE WAY COUNTER INSURGENCY IS NOT AT ALL THE JOB OF ARMED FORCES..HOME MINISTRY FORCES SHOULD HANDLE IT."

I will be happy if they are capable enough to handle it alone, but I do not agree that army has nothing to do with insurgencies. Do you have some international examples to support the notion that armies are normally kept away from fighting insurgencies, and that it is only in India that the Army is being burdened with this 'extra' job.



Ajith at 1:19 PM:

"We are better off doing things to assist the civil administration even though we know that it is not for this job that we are recruited, trained and paid (?)."

Many officers inside and outside the forces raise the point of assistance to the civil administration, and argue that this strains the military. Ajith has raised the point of being paid for this job.

As I said before, civil administration and police need to upgrade their capability, and the Union and the State governments should provide funds for that. But there is another point to be made here.

Let us consider this issue: In one district, the Teacher's Union argued that the reason for poor performance of the students is that the teachers are often requisitioning for duties like conducting elections, population survey, animal survey, preparing electoral rolls etc. These are not a part of their job description, and such diversion leads to poor teaching performance. They demanded that they be exempted from all such duties. I asked the District Education Officer to calculate the loss of teaching days. It turned out that on average a teacher stayed away from his/her teaching job for two days in an academic year. Assuming the academic year to be of 200 days, I told them to account for their performance for the remaining 198 days.

Now, we often hear that the army has been called out by civil administration too often - say 30 times in last year; it conjures up vivid images of army tanks rolling by. Remember, I do consider fighting insurgencies as a part of Army's job, and it is doing that with all its might. Most of the other assistance is on a very small scale.

What we need to consider is the figure for the man-days 'lost in' (I prefer to call it 'devoted to') providing such assistance to civil administration. Divide that by the number of defence personnel.

Now, how many seconds per day does an average defence person devote to helping the civil administration? Are you asking to be paid for those many seconds?



Anon at 4:36 PM:

First thank you for your insightful comments - I appreciate the civility and the regard you show. Anyone who claims one cannot make forceful and convincing arguments without shouting or abusing hasn't met you.

Let me expand on my point about late entry into the civil services. It is a fact that the average age of entry is around 27 for IAS, probably a little higher for other civil services. Assume that two students, equally talented, are studying in class X, and one decides to join the defence forces, and the other civil services. Both get in the services of their choice, but within their respective batches, the measure of their talent is close to the 'average' of their batch. Because of the way the two examinations are differently structured, the student who wants to join the civil services will probably have an average age of 27 at the time of entry, and the other student will probably join NDA at the age of 17 (I assume this is the average age of joining NDA).

Let me emphasize this point - people enter the civil services late not because they desire to enter it late, but because the competition is tough and there are better prepared older candidates also appearing in the exam. Some time back when the maximum age of giving the civil services examination was 26, the average age of entry at that time was around 24. The average age has increased because the Government has increased both the maximum age of giving the exam and the maximum number of attempts allowed. Now the Government may have any reason to do so, but the net result of such a policy has been to increase the average age of entrants. (Not that we like it - it is more difficult to train or 'indoctrinate' older entrants; many are married and have kids - it is difficult for them to spend more time with their batchmates and develop good esprit de corps and camaraderie: Some wise people have suggested an NDA type exam after class XII to pick up entrants as one of the measures to reform the civil services).

Some people suggest that the basic degree required for appearing in the civil services is graduation, so it should not be difficult for students with only a graduate degree to appear and succeed. If you look at the syllabi for the civil services subjects or at the actual question papers for these exams, you are very likely to find topics that are only covered at the post-graduate level. So even if the UPSC says that a graduate can take the exam, a graduate is not likely to succeed. To extend the argument I made in the earlier post, consider what will happen if UPSC decides to increase the age of giving NDA exam to 24 and asks questions in the exam on topics that are usually taught at the graduate level. How many 17 year old students do you think will be able to succeed in such an exam?

So the net result of the government's policy towards the structure of the civil services exam is that despite their best efforts, most successful candidates are only able to succeed at a late age. Should we penalize them for the late entry? I would suggest not.

Similarly the government mandated structure for the organization of the armed forces requires most officers retire early. Should we penalize them for the early exit? I would suggest not. As you would see - again based on my limited knowledge of defence affairs - I supported higher SSC intake that would enable most permanent commission officers to get faster promotions and thus retire later.



Rohit at 5:24 PM

I have addressed some of your points above.

"Please pardon me if you do belong to the IAS, because I always felt they understand logic."

If you are suggesting that non-IAS civil servants fail to understand logic, I am afraid I will have to strongly disagree.


Anon at 5:43 PM

"Overall, 95% of babus do not survive on their pay alone, while 95% of faujis survive just on their pay."

I am not sure if there is a survey to support your claim. I would admit that corruption is a malignant cancer eating away the vitals of the civil system.

However, if we were to judge the relative moral fiber of the people manning our services, there is a more nuanced way to look at it. To illustrate, most people will agree that the police services are more (financially) corrupt than an average government servant. But should we also say they are morally more corrupt. To support that statement with evidence, if we consider a control group from the police services, our comparison group should be from a service that enjoys similar discretionary powers. Let us take the comparison group of patwaris. Now you see, it becomes more difficult to make a judgment. The point is that it is not worthwhile to praise teachers and condemn policemen just because on average policemen are more (financially) corrupt than teachers.

So to compare the level of (moral) corruption, a group of civilian officers and a group of defence officers with similar level of discretionary and financial powers should be considered. I do not know what corruption percentages would a survey of such groups yield.

However, your point does still have some validity. On average, it is possible that the civilian officers earn more of 'extra remuneration' than defence officers do, and that leads to a lot of heartburn - for both those defence officers who would like to earn such 'goodies' and do not have the opportunities, and for those who honestly want to stay away from them.

But spare a thought for some of us in the civilian system who refrain from illegal dealings, often resisting pressure from superior authorities. If you are very careful about your work, the most that the powers that be can do is to assign you to do the least significant job. They would not bother to give you any meaningful assignment unless you are at least thrice as good as anyone else they would want to fit in that chair. Fortunately, the political leaders have to face elections, and the voters now-a-days do want some real progress, and that is a big reason some of us manage to undertake important assignments.

As for the private sector, very few people seem to care about the level of corruption as long as their work - legal or illegal - gets done quickly.

Although everyone on this blog seems mainly concerned about the IAS vs. military relativities and the WoP, I think a major reason for the expressions of anguish from honest officers in the government sector as a whole is their relative downgrading with respect to their friends in the private sector in the recent years. The economic expansion in the country has made the government services unattractive at the officer level - unless you want to make money by unfair means; young lads in the private sector are earning more than the combined income of their working parents in the government service. And many of our colleagues in the private sector seem delighted to ostentatiously display their wealth.

How do we make government services more attractive for honest and capable people? I have done some soul searching, and it is difficult to find an answer. Tell me what you think about it. On the one hand, it will help to provide incentives – monetary, ‘izzat’, or otherwise, but then monetarily how much can we offer to, say a super-specialist heart surgeon in his mid-30s for providing his services in an army hospital. If the market is willing to pay Rs 500,000 per month to him, should we pay that much? If we pay too 'less', say Rs 90,000 (Cab Sec scale), would the surgeon like to work at less than one-fifth the market rate just for the glory of the Cab Sec scale. Would the Cabinet Secretary or the Chiefs like such an arrangement where a 35 year old is in their pay-scale? On the other hand, consider that more than three-fourth of our country's population lives on less than Rs 80 a day. Is it 'fair' to give very high pay to some government workers? How should the pay structure be decided?







Anon at 8:48 PM

Please do not get agitated, I have answered some of your points earlier. My age-of-entry argument is valid for all civil services, not only for the IAS. So I do not understand how the fact that the IAS officers will get some extra increments weakens the argument, say for IPS officers.

"Granting this kind of Increments effects the three Service Chiefs and the Army Commandersand equivallants the most including all others. The secretaries and the The Cab Secy will land up earning more pensions than those even after serving the Govt of India four years less. More Service, less than equal satus and more pension?? What a Joke."

If I understand correctly, the Secretaries and the Army Commanders are both at the Apex Rs 80,000 scale. Can you explain how do a few increments provided earlier in the career to the Secretary matter for the pensions?

Anon at 10:59 PM

"Incidentally MY DEAR CIVILIAN OFFICER Sir we are fighting scourge of terrorism today in J&K as well as the North East - not to forget the Maoists because the civilian administration has FAILED (that's incidentally a mild word to use) TO PROVIDE FOR EVEN LEGITIMATE NEEDS OF THE COMMON MAN.....and you know it as well as I do that India can no longer be called a poor country. There has never been any death of funds for development....The will and the drive to ensure that those funds reach and benefit the man on the street has always been lacking…"

I will be first one to agree that the efforts to implement welfare programs need to be strengthened.

However, it is not entirely correct to say that Maoist have succeeded only because of the failure of the civil administration. Do you think the civil administration in UP or Haryana or Assam is better than that of Chattisgarh or Andhra Pradesh? My opinion is that it is simplistic to just point at the failure of civil administration to explain away problems like Naxalism, Insurgency etc. How about the performance of civil administration in Punjab during the 1980s? Was it worse than that in other States? During that period, was an average Sikh worse off than an average Indian economically, politically, or socially?

I would also not agree that we are not a poor country. If you consider the economic-well being of nations, and take a look at, for example, the world-bank data you would see that as compared to other countries we are indeed poor. We have grown faster in the recent years, and the living conditions of the poor have improved; there are fewer people under the 'poverty line' - still there are too many still left behind. Another troubling aspect is that the income disparity has also grown. We are becoming a more unequal society.

"for someone who has been in the corridors of power you seem relatively naive to believe that induction of SSC would be panacea of all evils in the armed forces"

Will there be any single set of proposals that will forever rid the armed forces of all evil. I think the higher SSC intake will help the situation, but of course there is no silver bullet.

"All I ask is please send your son (or daughter) to the forces for after all it appears to be an uncherished ambition of yours."

My father gave me his best advice, I did not agree. It was difficult to find as a career as prestigious as Army in those days. I have no doubt had he been in my shoes, he would have joyfully accepted the offer. I was good in studies, but had shown no signs of being outstanding in anything. It felt like a huge risk to decline the offer. He was, and still is, very obstinate and principled on many matters – even now I am a little bit nervous talking to him. Still, he respected the decision of a 16-year old boy. I intend to respect those of my children.


Anon at 3:06 AM

Good to know your views. I am sorry if you felt that IAS/IFS officers were disrespectful. I do not know the details as you do but I would heartily echo your call to "work hard ..be intelligent...be devoted..read and educated your self more than these bloaks....". Good competition will make the standards go higher.

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One last point, and the main one, is that we need to avoid acrimony. No matter how this episode turns out, the civilian officers and the military officers will have to work together. I feel that we Indians are great workers individually, and we show it when given the right opportunities; but often we find it difficult to work together in groups. For most of us, our religion is not collectivist, and believes in individual salvation. As a society we are divided into many groups. There are newer fissiparous tendencies incubating all over. I know and appreciate the fact that the defence forces are a great melting pot – they have played an invaluable role in national integration. It would be a great tragedy if this episode leads to rancor and discord that affects smooth functioning of any vital institution.

Thanks for your patience in reading this long post.

Regards,


CIVILIAN OFFICER

Anonymous said...

Dear civilian officer.
1.I am impressed with the cool headedness with which you have responded to the comments.
2.I attribute this to your training at Mussorie.
3.In fact in one of my earlier comment on some post,I had advocated that Army should have a look at the training programme of Lal Bahadur Shastri academy to see what is taught there which transforms an individual mostly from rural background(I do not have stats to prove my claim) in a cunning(used in a positive sense here) statesman.
4.In Armed Forces we are taught to think and speak plain,sans all diplomacy.That's a professional requirement and can not be wished away.Probably that is the difference between civility and military which you people keep harping.
5.You may be having stats of No of IAS aspirants working under you as PAs and stenos, who failed to make the grade by few marks.If selected they would have also spoken in the same language.

Anonymous said...

@ Civilian Officer
Your reply to my comments(anon@5.43pm) on corruption are very weak. May be you had no choice! By the way, I'm still waiting your comments to my other two questions, which you have very conveniently remained silent on. There is no harm in acknowledging the truth.

Anonymous said...

@civilian officer,

You agree by admitting that:

"So the net result of the government's policy towards the structure of the civil services exam is that despite their best efforts, most successful candidates are only able to succeed at a late age. Should we penalize them for the late entry? I would suggest not.

Similarly the government mandated structure for the organization of the armed forces requires most officers retire early. Should we penalize them for the early exit? I would suggest not. As you would see - again based on my limited knowledge of defence affairs - I supported higher SSC intake that would enable most permanent commission officers to get faster promotions and thus retire later."

You agree that early exit due to requirement for defence forces and late entry is due to requirement for IAS. AND both should not be penalized for that. Then why is Defence Forces being penalized for no fault of theirs by downgrading them.
First let the equation be where it was.
Second- to solve the problem of late entry and early exit solution is at top where IAS holds 100% posts should be equally distributed to all Gp A Officers.
Otherwise after 13 years of service in their respective category of entry there should be open competition to all categories of Gp A Oficers take on higher echelons outside their respective branchaes. that is something called (CSS)threby giving equal oppurtunity to all Gp A Officers as well fulfillin the requirement late entry requirement of Govt of India. And also every one would have oppurtunity to retire at almost at equal age depending upon therequirement.

Anonymous said...

Every one must remember when you upgrade post you degrade your power.By upgrading the C.O as colonel we have downgraded LT COl.With A V SING phase 1 we have further down graded Lt Col. And with AV sing part2 we are down grading col and brig.As every officer will become Brig.

Anonymous said...

@ dear civilian offr...

you have not answered the much more imp questions..infact u have answered none of the question which i had asked

from annony at 12.25

Anonymous said...

@ Anony October 17, 2008 3:27 PM

"Every one must remember when you upgrade post you degrade your power.By upgrading the C.O as colonel we have downgraded LT COl.With A V SING phase 1 we have further down graded Lt Col. And with AV sing part2 we are down grading col and brig.As every officer will become Brig."

Reply if you can why is applicable only to Defence Forces and Not IAS,IPS and other where they are changing the rules as per there will.

Sorry Your statement does not seem to be justified in this wher the whole issue is biased.

Anonymous said...

@dear annony..

i disagree with u ...every IAS BECOMES JOINT SECY DOES THIS MEAN JOINT SECY IS DEGRAED POST..NO IT IS STILL EQUAL TO MAJ GEN...AND IN FACT IT HAS GOT UPGRADED WHEN IAS STRUCTURE WAS REORGANISED..READ NAVDEEP'S POST..this should be implemented intelligently..u conduct a board and dont reject anybody..it will remain a selection grade...PL THINK