Feel free to contribute on burning issues concerning the armed forces. Contributions would be acknowledged - Use the 'Comments' tab or email navdeepsingh.india[at]gmail.com. No operational/business/commercial matters to be discussed please. Legal advice/litigation related issues would strictly NOT be published or discussed or entertained. Information on this blog is opinion based and is neither official nor in the form of an advice. This is a pro bono online journal in public service related to issues, policies and benefits, and the idea behind it is to educate and not to create controversy or to incite. Be soft in your language, respect Copyrights.

Saturday, October 25, 2008

Tradition & History : Police Ranks (with special reference to the Central Police Organisations)

-

Let me start by saying that I do not believe in superiority or inferiority of any service. I also do not like it when the CPOs/PMFs are shown in bad light. They are doing a job as tough (if not tougher) than the Army and ideally there should be pay parity amongst all Group-A services within the govt including the CPOs and the Defence Services.

Having said that, I’ll return to the issue at hand. A lot has been said by officers of the CPOs on the supposed equation of the rank of Second-in-Command with Lt Col of the Army. They have also demanded upgradation to Pay Band-4 if the rank of Lt Col is granted the same. Before touching the actual equation and historical aspect of the same, let’s take a look at the following facts and then come to our conclusion whether the rank of Second-in-Command can be compared with Lt Col or not :-

Second-in-Command
Years of service required to reach the rank : 11 years including training
4th CPC pay scale : Rs 3700-5000
5th CPC pay scale : Rs 12000-375-16500

Lieutenant Colonel
Years of service required to reach the rank
: 14.5 years including training if assumed from the Indian Military Academy
4th CPC pay scale : Rs 4700-5900
5th CPC pay scale : Rs 15100-400-18700


Now let us proceed with history – firstly with Police rank badges and then with Police ranks with special reference to CPOs.

From District Police Chief onwards, the police had the following system of rank badges till about independence :

Superintendent of Police / Assistant Inspector General of Police : Three Stars (Upgraded to Crown on reaching the basic pay scale of Rs 950/-)

Deputy Inspector General of Police : Crown with one Star

Inspector General of Police (highest police rank) : Crown with Two Stars

In the late 1950s and early 60s, the police establishment went in for a major overhaul and upgradation of rank badges. This followed the introduction of additional ranks such as Selection Grade etc. To meet new ranks, rank badges were appropriately upwardly modified. Contrary to popular perception, the Ministry of Defence very vehemently protested the rank confusion created by junior police officers wearing senior military rank badges but the issue was sorted out in a high level meeting between MHA and MoD (the meeting is documented and minuted) where it was rather unusually concluded that there could be no confusion between police and military ranks since police rank badges are silver in colour whereas military ranks are made of brass, and it was also decided that rank badges would not reflect the actual status comparison of military and police officers. This later resulted in the rank of DIG (then established by pay and by the MHA as being between a Lt Col and a full Colonel) wearing rank badges as worn by a Brigadier of the Army. So far so good. But this came to haunt the military years later when by forgetting the historical background of the issue, police officers started demanding status and pay equation by virtue of the rank badges worn. The skewed situation got adversely solidified when the 6th CPC commented about an ‘established relativity’ between a Brig and a DIG in all probability based on the equality of brass carried on the shoulders by the two ranks.

That being the backdrop, let’s now talk of the CPOs : Till the 5th CPC, there was no separate grade of Second-in-Command, instead there used to be two grades of the rank of Commandant in Central Police Organizations : Commandant (Ordinary Grade) and Commandant (Selection Grade). The so called rank of Second-in-Command was in the same grade as Comdt (OG). The point to be noted here is that both were in the Non-Functional Selection Grade pay scales and NOT in Junior Administrative Grade. Comdt (OG) (as also 2IC where it existed) was an officer in the NFSG scale of Rs 4100-5300 while Comdt (SG) was in Rs 4500-5700. Comdt (OG) with NFSG scale who used to wear the State Emblem with one Star was usually equated with a Lt Col for functional reasons in organizations such as Assam Rifles though the Army still maintained that the parity of Lt Col was with Comdt (SG) and not Comdt (OG). Both NFSG scales and ranks of Comdt (OG) and Comdt (SG) were merged by the 5th CPC and granted the scale of Rs 14300-18300 and another junior rank called Second-in-Command was created by the same Pay Commission in the Junior Administrative Grade of Rs 12000-16500 (erstwhile Rs 3700-5000). Now this junior rank was ordained to wear the former rank badges of Comdt (OG). Hence, the erstwhile NFSG Comdt (OG) – functionally considered equivalent to a Lt Col was granted the scale of Rs 14300-18300 and the Second-in-Command was a new junior rank created by the 5th CPC for internal Cadre Management of CPOs. The appointment of 2IC also existed in certain CPOs prior to 5th CPC but it was the same grade as Comdt (OG) and all such existing 2ICs were also upgraded to the new NFSG of Rs 14300-18300 while new 2IC appointees after the 5th CPC were granted a lower rank of JAG in the scale Rs 12000-16500. The above mentioned can be explicitly seen from Paras 70.19 & 70.21 of the 5th CPC dealing with CPOs. How can one then say that by creation of a new junior rank for CPOs (2IC) below the erstwhile rank of Comdt (OG) for their own management, the rank of Lt Col also stands degraded by a one level ?. The military is not to follow the system of CPOs and has nothing to do with their organizational tinkering. It is the CPOs which introduced a junior rank in the JAG – would it automatically have an adverse impact on the military, absolutely NOT. If Commandants start wearing the ranks of a full Colonel, would it mean that they have now become equivalent to Colonels ? No I would say. One also keeps hearing that there has to be a parity between Commandants and full Colonels since both command Battalions and that an officer is promoted to the rank of full Colonel in about 15 years which is similar to Commandants of CPOs. This is incorrect too since most Infantry Battalion Commanders are actually Substantive Lt Colonels holding the acting rank of Colonel but in the pay of Lt Col. Army officers are promoted to the rank and pay of substantive Colonel after 20 years service, that is, if at all promoted. Though preferably, the system of rank badges should have been made parallel to actual status in the 1950s itself, it did not happen but it should also not lead to false perceptions of grandeur. Can a non-gazetted Inspector of Central Excise (who wears three stars without a cloth band) be equated with a gazetted Group-A Assistant Commandant of the CPOs only because of similarity of rank badges ?. Can an Inspector of Bihar Police who now wears One Star without cloth band compare himself with an IPS Probationer because they share the brass on their respective shoulders ? Or can a Shatabadi Train Ticket Checker claim equivalence with a Wing Commander of the Air Force because they both wear three full stripes on their shoulders ?. What is worn on the shoulders by officers of the CPOs by virtue of their in-house/MHA orders has no relevance or effect on MoD or on what is worn by military officers.

The Indian Navy-Coast Guard Equation : While the MoD could not have controlled the upgradation of rank badges by organizations under the MHA, in-house relativities as far as Coast Guard is concerned, were kept more realistic. Commandant (SG) in the scale of Rs 14300-18300 of the Coast Guard still wears Three Stripes akin to a Naval Commander (Lt Col) while a DIG in the scale of Rs 16400-20000 is equated with a Colonel and wears Four Stripes akin to a Naval Captain (Full Colonel). A DIG is allowed to wear the rank stripes of a Commodore only after some set years of service as is the case in the Navy. Mind You, a naval Commodore strictly speaking is not equivalent to a Brigadier of the Army. Naval Captains after three years of service are constituted (not promoted) as Commodores which is basically an appointment and not a rank, though traditionally they are treated at par in status with Brigadiers in Military circles. Commodores when granted command of a ship are reverted back to four stripes of a Captain.

Any thoughts ???


-

73 comments:

Anonymous said...

@NAVDEEP SIR....

BRILLIANT EFFORT BUT NO BODY IN GOVT WANTS TO TAKE ALL THESE ARGUMENTS....

I HOPE SOMEBODY WHO IS ACTUALLY INTERACTING WITH GOVT ON DEFENCE ISSUES IS READING THIS AND INFO OUR CHIEFS..

wind_swept said...

Director General of Police - (equivalent to Lt. General in the army)

this from here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_ranks_in_India

hope this helps navdeep

Anonymous said...

@ Navdeep,
Sir, i know that this may not be your job, but i have to ask this - are the GoM / MoD aware of these issues? If not how to project it to the highest level? This question, i am sure is in the minds of all armed forces officers

Anonymous said...

fdsfa

B P SINGH said...

Dear Navdeep,
On one side you said as an Inspector wears three stars on shoulder ,thus cannot be equated with Captain/Asst Comdt/IPS OFFICERS .On the other hand you EQUATE Commandant/DIG of coast guard with what they wear on shoulders ,what a double standard.Please check, rank of Second-in-command existed even before 4th pay commission,and you are talking about 5th pay commission.It was the 4th pay commission which gave pay scale to this rank.Well if Defence can generate new rank(please check history) what wrong with CPOs having generated one new rank.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@BP Singh

My dear BP Singh Sir.
Firstly, Second-in-Command of a Bn was never officially known as 'Second-in-Command' as a rank. Earlier in CPOs, 2IC was an appt, after 5th CPC converted into a rank. Send me your email address and I'll send you the exact reference (Para Number) of the 5th CPC report dealing with this.

For Coast Guard, forget about the rank badges, a Comdt (SG) is under Command a Cdr / Capt (IN) in Ops and a DIG is under command of a Capt (IN).

Anonymous said...

How Far have we Travelled in History

"In Democratic India, Armed Forces are trated as "Enemies of the Country" having perfect "British Colonial" habbits who need to be constantlty downgraded at each and every oportunity. This Krishna Menon Nehruvian notion is still alive and kicking as zenetic disorder amonst the elites of South Block. See how far er travelled on that road and how our own so called "Civilan Royal Clarks" have downgraded the Armed Forces."
Precedence in India is regulated by a Royal Warrant. dated the 6th of May 1871,
{http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Precedence}
Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith.
To all to whom these presents shall come, greeting.
Whereas it hath been represented unto Us that it is advisable to regulate the Rank and Precedence of persons holding appointments in the East Indies. In order to fix the same, and prevent all disputes, We do hereby declare that it is Our will and pleasure that the following Table be observed with respect to the Rank and Precedence of the persons hereinafter named, viz.: Governor-General and Viceroy of India. Governor of Madras. Governor of Bombay. President of the Council of the GovernorGeneral. Lieutenant-Governor of Bengal. Lieutenant-Governor of North-West Provinces. Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjaub. Commander-in-Chief in India, when a Member of Council. Chief Justice of Bengal. Bishop of Calcutta, Metropolitan of India. Chief Justices of Madras, Bombay and North-Western Provinces. Commanders-in-Chief in Madras and Bombay, when also Members of Council. Ordinary Members of the Council of the GovernorGeneral. Bishops of Madras and Bombay. Ordinary Members of Council in Madras and Bombay.
Commander-in-Chief in India, when not a Member of Council. Puisne Judges of the High Courts of Calcutta, Madras, Bombay and North-Western Provinces. Commanders-in-Chief, Madras and Bombay, when not Members of Council. Chief Commissioners and Resident at Hyderabad. Military Officers above rank of Major-General. Additional Members of the Council of the GovernorGeneral when assembled to make laws, &c. Commodore commanding Her Majesty's Naval Forces in India. Judge Advocate General of India. Secretaries to the Government of India. Additional Members of the Councils of the Governors of Madras and Bombay when assembled to make laws, &c. Members of the Legislative Council of the Lieutenant-Governor of Bengal. Agents to the Governor-General in Rajpootana and Central India. Commissioner in Sind. Judges of the Chief Court, Punjaub. Chief Secretaries to the Governments of Madras and Bombay.
First Class Civilians of 28 years' standing to rank with Major-Generals (now it is IAS of 14 years of service)
Advocate General, Calcutta. Residents at Foreign Courts and Residents at Aden, the Persian Gulf and Bagdad. Recorders of Moulmein and Rangoon. Advocates-General, Madras and Bombay. Members of the Boards of Revenue, Bengal, Madras, North-West Provinces. Secretaries to Local Governments. Chief Engineer, 1st Class. Comptroller-General of Accounts in India. Directors General, Post Office, Telegraphs and Irrigation. Judicial Commissioners, Oude, Central Provinces, Mysore and Sind. Financial Commissioners in the Punjaub, Oude and Central Provinces. Archdeacon of Calcutta. Secretary to Council of Governor-General for making Laws, &c. Officers Commanding Brigades.
This subject was considered by the House of Lords in February 1628, on the proposition of a committee that no foreign nobility has right of precedence within this realm before any peer of this kingdom.
Civilians of 20 years' standing ranking with Colonels. Commissioners of Divisions. Directors of Public Instruction under Governments. Private Secretary to Viceroy. Military Secretary to Viceroy. Archdeacons of Madras and Bombay. Surveyor-General of India. Superintendent, Great Trigonometrical Survey. Sanitary Commissioner with Government of India. Superintendent of the Geological Survey in India. InspectorGeneral of Forests in India.
Inspector-General of Police. Under Local Governments. Registrars-General.
Standing Counsel to Government of India. Remembrancers of Legal Affairs, and Legal Advisers to the Government in the NorthWest Provinces and the Punjaub. Commissioners of Revenue Survey and Settlement. Chief Engineers, 2nd and 3rd Class, and Superintendents of Irrigation.
Third Class Civilians of 12 years' standing ranking with Lieutenant-Colonels. Political Agents. Under-Secretaries to Government of India. Inspector-General of Education, Central Provinces, and DirectorsGeneral of Education, Oude, British Burmah, Berer and Mysore. Officers, 1st Grade, Education Department. Officers, 1st Grade, Financial Department. Private Secretaries to Governors. Military Secretaries to Governors. First Judges of Presidency Courts of Small Causes. Chief Magistrates of Presidency Towns. Administrator-General, Calcutta. Administrators-General, Madras and Bombay.
Inspectors-General of Jails.
Sanitary Commissioners. Under Local Governments. Conservators of ForesLs.
Superintending Engineers, 1st Class. Deputy Directors of Post Office and Telegraphs and Directors of Traffic and Construction. Postmasters-General. Senior Chaplains. Officers, 1st Grade, Geological Survey. Officers, 2nd Grade, Education Department. Officers, 2nd Grade, Financial Department. Superintendents, 1st Grade, Telegraph Department.
Fourth Class Civilians of 8 years' standing ranking with Majors.
Assistant Political Agents. Officers, 2nd Grade, Geological Survey. Officers, 3rd Grade, Education Department. Officers, 3rd Grade, Financial Department. Superintendents, 2nd Grade, Telegraph Department. Government Solicitors.
Fifth Class Civilians of 4 years' standing ranking with Captains.
Junior Chaplains. Officers, 4th Grade, Education Department.
Sixth Class Civilians of less than 4 years' standing to rank with Subalterns.
Note I. - Commissioners of Divisions within their own Divisions, and Residents and Political Agents within the limits of their respective charges, to take precedence immediately before Civilians of the 1st Class.
Note 2. - Collectors and Magistrates of Districts, and Deputy Commissioners of Districts, and the Chief Officer of each Presidency Municipality, to take precedence within their respective charges before the 3rd Class and Lieutenant-Colonels in the Army.
Sheriffs to rank within their charges immediately after Lieutenant-Colonels in the Army.
All Officers not mentioned in the above table, whose rank is regulated by comparison with rank in the Army, to have the same rank with reference to Civil Servants as is enjoyed by Military Officers of equal grades.
All other persons who may not be mentioned in this table to take rank according to general usage, which is to be explained and determined by the Governor-General in Council in case any question shall arise.
Nothing in the foregoing rules to disturb the existing practice relating to precedence at Native Courts, or on occasions of intercourse with Natives, and the Governor-General in Council to be empowered to make rules for such occasions in case any dispute shall arise.
All ladies to take place according to the rank herein assigned to their respective husbands, with the exception of wives of Peers, and of ladies having precedence in England, independently of their husbands, and who are not in rank below the daughters of Barons; such ladies to take place according to their several ranks, with reference to such precedence in England, immediately after the wives of Members of Council at the Presidencies in India.
Given at Our Court at Windsor, this sixth day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and seventy-one, and in the thirty-fourth year of our Reign.
By Her Majesty's Command.
(Signed)

Question Arises:

Are Armed forces Citizens of the Country or mercinaries of Raj who need constant downgradation? o be treated as slaves?

Second set of question Arise:
who are the Armed Forces Protecting??

Are Armed Forces part of the system ?? Or Enemies of the system??.

Whoes Country is this??

Bureauctrates??

Who is better represe the people and Democracy?? Armed Forces or the Bureaucrate??

Answer these and the precedences will fall in place

Kaps said...

After seeing these instances of bungling (willful/unwillingly), I have realised one thing, IAS as the right hand of executive is an utter failure. Why is it so? The following might give you an example:-
=================================

I seriously don't know wheather am I doing the right thing by posting something which is not remotely related with Technology here, but believe me, this seriously is worth sharing....
I got it as a FWD, I dont know wheather its real or false but Its Too funny to resist!!!

Bihari Essay "Indian Cow"

You'll forget your English by the time you finish reading this.
This is a true essay written by a Bihari candidate at the UPSC
(IAS)Examinations.


The candidate has written an essay on the Indian cow:

Indian Cow: -

HE IS THE COW. "The cow is a successful animal. Also he is 4
footed, And because he is female, he give milks,[but will do so when he is gotchild.] He is same like-God, sacred to Hindus and useful to man. But he has got four legs together. Two are forward and two are afterwards.
His whole body can be utilized for use. More so the milk. Milk
comes from 4 taps attached to his basement... [horses don't have any such attachment] What can it do? Various ghee, butter, cream, curd, why and the condensed milk and so forth. Also he is useful to cobbler, watermans and mankind generally.

His motion is slow only because he is of lazy species., Also his
other motion.... gober is much useful to trees, plants as well as for making flat cakes [like Pizza ] , in hand , and drying in the sun.

Cow is the only animal that extricates his feeding after eating. Then afterwards she
chew with his teeth whom are situated in the inside of the mouth.

He is incessantly in the meadows in the grass. His only attacking and defending organ is the horns, specially so when he is got child.
This is done by knowing his head whereby he causes the weapons to
be paralleled to the ground of the earth and instantly proceed with great velocity forwards. He has got tails also, situated in the backyard, but not like similar animals. It has hairs on the other end of the other side.
This is done to frighten away the flies which alight on his cohesive body hereupon he gives hit with it. The palms of his feet are soft unto the touch. So the grasses head is not crushed. At night time have poses by looking down on the ground and he shouts . His eyes and nose are like his other relatives.
This is the cow.......
==================================
We are informed that the candidate passed the exam. and is now an IAS, is Bihar in somewhere,..[sorry somewhere in Bihar!]


Now you can easily realise how babooze befuddle things betweem CPO, Lt COl, MNS etc etc.

Anonymous said...

@ navdeep sir...

u r absolutely right..

i have worked with BSF..

WHENEVER AN OFFR USED TO DO THE DUTIES OF 2IC HE USED TO WEAR LT COL'S BADGES( I WONT CALL THEM RANKS)
AND WHEN SOME ELSE U TO TAKE OVER HE AGAIN USED TO BE DY COMDT..

but the whole issue is other than army nobody wants to accept this argument..for a simple reason they want to downgrade armed forces at any cost...

Anonymous said...

fOR ALL THOSE WHO MIGHT HAVE MISSED THIS....

source: http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/10/special-instructions-on-6thpc-issued-to.html

Special instructions have been issued by the MoD to all three services notifying the 6th Pay Commission. The Army instruction was issued on October 11, the Navy and IAF instructions a few days later. These instructions initially caused a bit if a furore because they incorporate the recommendations that the three service Chiefs were up in arms against. In reality, it had been agreed at the time the three-member Group of Ministers was set up last month, that the instructions notifying the 6th Pay Commission as-is would be issued so as to remove the perception that the chiefs had been "defiant". It was agreed that the GoM's recommendations (which are to be announced a day or two before Diwali) would be incorporated either as a corrigendum to the special instructions already issued, an amendment to the instruction, or fresh special instructions that will supersede the ones issued this month.

The only snag, and one that has already seriously irked everyone in uniform all over again is the fact that the Ministry has attempted to define Rank Pay once again, and in that effort, effectively classified it as exclusive from Basic Pay (which, as per, previous definitions, is very much a part of Basic Pay). This has seriously aroused suspicions of more shocks for defence officers just lurking around the corner.

Congress President Sonia Gandhi personally asked the GoM to ensure the issue is resolved amicably before Diwali. But by all accounts only two of the four core demands (Lt Cols in PB-4 and reinstatement of pensionary benefits for PBORs) are by most accounts likely to be acceded to for now. So has a compromise of some sort been struck between the GoM and the three chiefs? Has the GoM decided to recommend just these two, since they're perceivably more emotive than the other two. That's unclear so far. But there's talk that the three Chiefs are pretty much unwilling to accept anything other than all four core demands met. What then? Will they quit? Will they quietly accept, after what has surely been a gruelling and tense time for their leadership? The way things have gone so far, it's hard to say at this point.

In the meanwhile, the ex-servicemen (ESM) community shot off a letter today to President Pratibha Patil appealing to her to intervene and get one-rank-one-pension and other veteran demands implemented through the Prime Minister immediately. From what I've heard, the demands of ex-servicemen are unlikely to be met at this time. Hopefully I'm wrong.

manoj said...

1.on several blogs one defence officer writing as wind_swept has put link of US “Lawmaker backs pay parity, 3.5 percent raise for 2008”

2. Even our lawmakers have given parity to armed forces vis-a-vis civilians through sixth pay commission . Highest law protecting institution of our country that is Hon. Supreme Court of India in case of J P CHAURASIA & OTHERS VS Govt ( date of judgement 27 sep 1988),Pradip kr Dey vs union of india ( date of judgement 9 nov 2000), Indulal & others vs union of India (date of judgement 29 april 2002) has held that

"The equation of posts or equation of pay must be determined by expert bodies like PAY COMMISSION. They would be best judge to evaluate the nature of duties and responsibilities of posts. The pay commission ,which goes into the problem at great depth and happens to have a full picture before it, is the proper authority to decide upon this issue."

3. As per para 2.3.13 on page no. 77 of sixth pay commission report Defence forces have demanded parity with civilian posts and grant of MSP.
Sixth pay commiission has accepted their demand of MSP and also has clearly defined the parity with civilian on grade pay basis. The pay commission in para 2.3.13 has clearly written that "Status of the Defence forces officers would be determined by the grade pay attached to their post as is the case with civilian. GOVT HAS ALSO ACCEPTED BOTH THESE RECOMMENDATIONS OF PAY COMMISSION WITHOUT ANY CHANGE.

4. Defence forces have declined to accept the cabinet decision which in turn may amount to declining to accept even Hon Supreme Court rulings.

5. Not a healthy trend for the country.

jatin said...

Dear Navdeep,
Some of the facts need to be clarified before you have more discussion on them.

The IPS is just one of the 2 dozen odd services that are recruited directly through the Civil Services examination every year. There promotions are time bound, similar to the rest of the civil services. If you read any of their blogs then you will realise that they have been fighting for the abolition of the DIG rank for a number of years as this adds one extra step for them which no other Civil Service has to take. They are planning to seek judicial intervention for getting this parity. If this happens then an SSP would get directly promoted to an IG in 16 yrs (rather than DIG in 14 and then IG in 18). So IPS is the only service which gets the Jt Secy grade in 18 yrs, amongst all the civil services. And ironically enough, they claim that their parity with other CSs is suffering because they are always told by the IAS that DIG rank must stay to maintain similarity to army ranks.

The ranks don’t really hold a meaning in Civil services and the rules are completely different than army. The Customs Service (IRS) officers start wearing a, what one would call, Lt Col rank from day one after completing his training, ie, 3rd yr of his service. Similarly an IPS officer wears the captain rank from day one. An IPS officer in Senior Scale wears a rank of a Lt Col in a district as SP, but wears the rank of a major if posted as addl DCP in a larger city. And many civil services get promoted to Major Gen rank in dot 16 yrs, but you don’t realise so because they don’t move around wearing ranks.

Last year the IAS had, on their own, reduced their promotion time to Jt Secy to 14 yrs (thankfully this has been rolled back) and many states have already promoted all the IAS officers of 14 yrs service to this rank. So you may find some IAS Maj Gens of 14 yrs of service in states like Orissa, MP, Rajashan, etc. and yet not realise this as they don’t wear ranks.

In the last 20 years that I have observed the police ranks have increased IG to DG. The reason generally given is increase in population and crime and thus increase in the size of the police establishment. Yet there were only a few DGs in the Delhi, I think, in IB and BSF, who had Secretary salaries. Now they have managed to get one in every State. So they would have about 35 as compared to 250 odd for IAS.

I think we should drop our obsession with ranks and focus on real salaries as compared to that of the IAS.

Jatin

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Jatin

I absolutely agree with your observations.

In fact, the ideal situation would be a parity amongst all Group-A services (and of course All India Services). But would the IAS let it happen ? I don’t think so. I also do not understand the concept of an ‘edge’ to them especially over other services recruited from the same pool. Should the edge of a few marks in the recruitment process mean condemnation for life for others ?. ‘Frequent transfers’ and ‘postings to small places’ was the logic provided by the 6th CPC, what about the IPS ? What about the Army ?. And why a member secretary of the Pay Com from the IAS, especially someone who had earlier served in the DoPT ?

Now to your post. I understand that ranks do not really matter in the civil services. But the problem is that unfortunately the military ranks have now been linked with civil grades which puts the defence services in a very awkward situation, both status wise and monetarily. Yes I know that IRS (Central Customs & Excise) get to wear the emblem and star while in the Junior Time Scale and am also told that their Superintendents (Group-B) are allowed to wear the state emblem - and the matter was taken up by the MHA with the MoF but to no avail. It would be interesting however to find out the history behind their rank badges – the concept makes no sense IMHO. The Emblem and Star to IPS officers of the Senior Time Scale of course is admissible under the IPS Uniform Rules 1956 when in charge of Districts or an Armed Police Battalion – but even this is prone to misuse and State Govts notify certain appointments as equivalent to ‘district’ in order to provide the benefit of an additional star, you must be knowing it well since you seem to be an IPS officer.

The promotion to the SAG in 14 years was also a major scam but fortunately got curbed with the personal intervention of the PM. I would however like to differ on the Maj Gen-SAG equation. All SAG officers are not equal to Maj Gens but only those who are empanelled as and holding the appointment of Jt Secy to GoI for the time being can be equated with Maj Gen and that’s where the Pay Com again got it wrong. I would suggest you to read an earlier post http://indianmilitarybenefits.blogspot.com/2008/10/below-mentioned-is-second-part-of.html on this issue.

Do you know that while a Jt Secy to GoI is listed on the Central Warrant of Precedence, even a DG of the State Police (let alone an ADGP) does not even find mention on it meaning thereby that a Jt Secy GoI would outrank a DGP of a state during ceremonial occasions. Now it would not take a great guess to know which service has the maximum number of Jt Secys under the Central Staffing Scheme.

We can carry this conversation on if you would like and look for ways of brainstorming to sort this problem out. My email is navdeepsingh.india@gmail.com

Regards

Navdeep

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Manoj

The issue is not that simple.
There are many anomalies of the 4th and 5th CPC which are still under resolution and consideration. And Hon'ble Courts do interfere in case there is arbitrariness in PayCom recommendations or govt notifications.

manoj said...

dear navdeep,
I will be enlightened if you can quote some example where courts have interferred and given decision on the matter of equation of pay or equation of rank which was given by a pay commission.

Anonymous said...

@ Manoj..

u r right the parity should exsist..that is what we r saying ..

THE BIG QUESTION IS ....

WHY IN 6TH PAY COMMISSION THE PAY FIXATION OF ARMED FORCES OFFICER IS LESS THAN THEIR COUNTER PARTS OF CIVIL...?

ANY ANSWERS TO IT!!!!!

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Manoj

The countless cases decided on the ground of 'equal pay for equal work' are an easy reference.

Talking about the military per se. The recent case on the pensions of Maj Gens and Brigs was also an off-shoot of 5th CPC anomalies - effectively taken care of by the Hon'ble SC.

manoj said...

dear navdeep,
i am asking for specific thing whether any court has interferred in matter of equation of pay or equation of rank as given by pay commission but you are quoting entirely different example.

If you know some case please quote otherwise do not negate truth just to negate it.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Manoj

You seem to be the perfect example of those people who do not understand the language of politeness. The examples quoted by me are perfect examples of the situation sought to be amplified by you. But I guess one only hears what he/she wants to hear and I am under no obligation to answer every single query posted by you.

If you consider yourself to be such a great jurist or expert on service law then I guess you do not need to visit this blog and seek answers from less enlightened visitors here.

Indian army officer? The group B officer. said...

this country know well that india can not survive without army even for a day. that is the reason army is not allowed to form association.Inspite of that every body in india is trying to downgrade army. a group of three minister has taking so long do decide on a issue which is directly affecting the selfrespect of army officers and hence their morale. the IAS/IPS lobby is trying to field CPOs against army. god forbid if army and CPOs stand in front of each other in arms.

Supreme court very correctly said with the present setup of netas and baboos only god can save this country

Anonymous said...

CPO'S WHO CANT STAND IN FRONT OF PUBLIC.

HOW COME U R IMAGINING THEY WILL STAND INFRONT ARMY..

THULLAS VS SOLDIER?

Anonymous said...

1. Read the fundamental right " Equal work equal pay". And cases related to it.(1. A.I.R. 1982 SC 879 – Randhir Singh v. Union of India & Ors.
2. 1986 U.P. L.B.E.C. 254 – Dhirendra Chamoli & Anr. V. State of U.P.
3. A.I.R. 1986 SC 284 – Surendar Singh & Anr. V. The Engineer in Chief C.P.W.D. & Ors to name Few)
2. Read 12 report of Parliament committee on defence avilable on Loksabha net
3.Read the Cabinet Comittee decisions para 12 about doctors
4. Once agian read the Sixth pay comission report particluraly edge in defence forces
Now answer
Was there edge to the doctors in fifth pay comissio?
Is the same edge continued?
When CGHS doctor reach grade Pay 7600, 8700, 10000/- When the AFMS doctor reach corrosponding grade.
Fundamental right of Equal work Equal pay is more important my dear!

Anonymous said...

We are in respectful agreement with the decision given by this Court in writ petition
No.643 of 1983 In Randhir Singh vs. Union of India & others (A.I.R. 1982 SC 879) their Lordships of the Supreme Court observed as under:
“Equal pay for equal work’ is not a mere demagogic slogan. It is a Constitutional goal capable of attainment through constitutional remedies, by the enforcement of constitutional rights. So the petitioner claims; so the petitioner asserts. Article 39(d) of the Constitution proclaims, as a Directive Principle, the Constitutional goal of ‘equal pay for equal work for both men and women’. Articles 14 and 19 guarantees respectively the fundamental rights to equality before the law and equality of opportunity in the matter of public employment and art. 32 provides the remedy for the enforcement of the fundamental rights................”
“It is true that equation of posts and equation of pay are matters primarily for the Executive Government and expert bodies like the Pay Commission and not for Courts but where all things are equal that is, where all relevant considerations are the same, persons holding identical posts may not be treated differentially in the matter of their pay merely because they belong to different departments. Of course, if officers of the same rank perform dissimilar functions and the powers, duties and responsibilities of the posts held by them very, such officers may not be heard to complain of dissimilar pay merely because the posts are of the same rank and the nomenclature is the same.”

Anonymous said...

2.3.12 The Commission is of the view that running pay bands on
par with those recommended for civilian officers needs to be
introduced in respect of the Defence Forces as well. This is also in
conformity with the recommendations of all the three earlier Central
Pay Commissions that had simultaneously considered the pay scales
and related issues of civilians as well as the Defence Forces. The
edge enjoyed by the Defence Forces over the civilian scales will,
after suitable enhancement to meet the genuine aspirations of the
Defence Forces, be given as a separate element called Military
Service Pay. Presently the edge enjoyed by the Defence Forcesofficers is limited to the rank of Brigadier. This edge will need to beAs stated earlier, the Commission has taken adequate care while
devising the Military Service Pay to ensure that not only the element
of edge over civilian pay scales currently enjoyed by the Defence
Forces is maintained but also that the genuine aspirations of the
Defence Forces officers are met.
protected.

Anonymous said...

i would like to be proved wrong, but what i foresee is the way the wind is blowing. one can feel it. IAS have put CPOs against Armed forces. What can the govt do? To get to the root of the matter, it will accept only one anomaly (PBOR) since CPOs have not accepted the lateral entry., and put all others in anomaliles committee.
As a concession to the armed forces, it would nominate one retired senior officer as a co-opted member(only for armed forces anomalies). The selection of the officer would be carefully done(with correct leanings, there are many). But, the committee would itself be comprised of bureaucrats (with a sprinkling of allied services, ex-judges, ex-professors etc).
The outcome is a foregone conclusion - some basic anomalies would be resolved after a few years. However, no parity issues wouldbe entertained. Lt cols/ Lt gens would remain in the same position.
Some talk of reforms would surface from time to time, but no concrete actions are foreseen in near future.
Senior officers would make the right noises at golfcourses and parties, juniors would continue to sacrifice in the front. Jawans would continue to languish.
the IAS would continue to reign supreme till the next catastrophe, i.e the next war (maybe in next 2020 or so)
All this because, the services were offgaurd during the 4th and 5th pay commissions (rank pay - it would continue to haunt us).
After all , maybe we are not so superior/intelligent as we think we are. If babus can successfully defend their turf inspite of so many govt changes/unprdictable politicians, why couldn’t we? after all we were up against the same set/lot. This teaches us the value of not underestimating anyone - a lesson which we should learn whilst dealilng with our unfriendly neighbour.

Anonymous said...

The entire logic of Pay and status fixation for the Armed Forces is illogical and irrational.

For all other class A Services, except for IPS, IAS pay scales and status has been kept as bench mark with two year lifelong edge given to IAS for being IAS.

Pay progression has been linked to IAS to keep Class A services mouth shut but status progression (as per precedents) has been left behind. Class A services will take the pay after two years but may not get appropriate post of that pay band.

For the Army, which two successive Pay Commissions, unnecessarily and unjustifiably, equated them with Police and IPS, there is just no Bench Mark. For the Armed forces Negative Kind of Bench Marking has been applied.

For ranks up to Maj the earlier obtained equivalence between the Under secy and Deputy secretaries has been violated and Lt Col and Maj degraded.

Director has jumped up to be equivalent to Col.
Comdt CPO has jumped to be equivalent to Col.

DAG has jumped up to be equivalent to a Brig.

All Arny ranks except the joining rate and grade have been jumped over by the others...

This is a buggers muddle and No one else but IAS is responsible for it..

The government should hand over governance to IAS and ministers should sit back at their home..

What a pathetic democracy is this????

Har Saakh Pe Ullu Baitha Hai Anjame Gulistan yahi Hoga....

********

Ab ye Kaisse Manzar Nazar Aa Rahen Hain
Baithe Baithe Sabhi Chilla Rahen Hain ..

(Fauzi khare ho ke chlla rahen hain)

God bless this Country... Or has God also joined IAS !!

Rahul said...

just got to hear an unconfirmed report that pay parity issues have been rejected.Can some one confirm

Anonymous said...

Equal Pay for Equal work

The battalions of the Army as on today is being command by selected officers of 17 years. It means he is Substantive Lt Col. But the CPO Commanding officer , equivalent has been moved to P-4. Why not the Lt col of the Armed Forces?

The Argument is right...

Tomorrow due to AV Sing Committee report which had the aim of bringing down the Age profile" of Cos and Brigade Commanders", Army will attain capability to make officers if 15 years service command the battalions then you will put in another logic.
If Brigade commanders are promoted in 20 years of service, then you all will put in logic of equality of opportunity.

Today a 13 years of service IAS goon says he is equivalent to 20 years service Colonel. He does not do any equal work to that of a colonel by commanding a battalion.

Then a section officers would say he has 20 UDCs under him which is equal to 20 UDCs in BSF Battalion and therefore he would be equal to Commandant.

Since when has a CPO battalion been equivalent to Army Battalion or Armoured Regiment or Artillery Regt or a fighter squadron or a large ship???

Faulty arguments...???


The problem is the you all are blind power seekers rather than true professionals. Go as per your organizational structures and functional requirements rather jumping over the shoulders of others. What Armed forces do is their business. hat you should do is to do your work...

Armed Forces and Police can never to be equal leave aside equal tasks. Your job is peace time , Army is meant for war. There is no equal business there.

Shed away wrong notions please and pay attention to your work where you miserably fail.

Anonymous said...

When will Military Learn to behave and Act like Babus??

With every large Military Purchase, the Generals must ask MoD and the RM to acceded to one upgrade and betterment of conditions?

Fools as they will always remain...

With such large outlays, outright purchases, acquisitions and so much defense budgets... this is possible..

If IAS has done it pushing the Country behind and themselves ahead.why can not Armed forces do it...

But only request is Tri services interest..Do not allow Babus to devide it..and also keep the basic interest of Contry some where burried your hearts.. you all can achieve it..

Chiefs to play it that way ...there is no other way...and that is agood way..buy concessions position and status...

It is very simple if you all love your organization and future of the Armed Forces..with every maj aquisition...one major service concession..or no trails...no reports.. No acquisition...lots of leaks..and lots of sackings..

Wish you all the best...but before you do that ensure you yourself are not week....
Do it in the interest of the service...
with the signing of every major purchase the Rm should be signing one major status upgrade or concession to the service..

That is perfect Chanakya niti of IAS... Lean something from them..That is how major organisations and services have done..

Anonymous said...

Yes that is a good idea...

What chiefs so far have been doing is for themselves only like previous Army Chief ..There but a very few exceptions.. Had that done it for both the Organization and secondly for themselves, this would have been the plight of the Services..

The beauty of the recommended tricks is that it does good to the organization as also to the chiefs...

and if some where here or there the Country is not forgotten...then you will be perfect Chiefs like Krishnas..Govindas...

This is Kaliyuga not Sat yuga..here methods and means do not matter..the end matters. Look at your IAS, IFS, IPS brothers...the goons hare no patch for you..you can do the things they do much better.
why cry do it.. and restore glory of the Armed Forces... if you have that zeal and mission..

You can do it ...we can do it..Of Course not at the cost of nation..but it can still be done keeping national interest in the heart...

Anonymous said...

@ ALL....

I c a change in the appch of defence people ...

thanx to 6th cpc the country will realsie what it has done to itself in the years to come...

very correctly the change in our thinking is the fiirst step towards downfall of india...i mean it...

till yesterday a soldier was not bothered of what is happening in the govt office of power...and was only interested in doing his job ..day in and out...

but today he is questioning everything..before every action thinking for himself...I WILL SAY IT IS GOOD FOR HIM BUT BAD FOR NATION...BUT PERHAPS THIS IS HOW THE NATION WANTS HIS SOLDIER TO BE...SELFISH AND OPPORTUNIST...

IAS BABU'S U WIN THE BATTLE BUT THE NATION LOSES ITS SECURITY..
THANX TO CIVIL SERVICES AND POLITICS...

A INSTITUTION LIKE ARMY HAS BEEN DESTROYED EFFECTIVELY BY U ALL..

THE NATION WILL BUY IT ....DONT WORRY

Anonymous said...

Good grief!
The SCPC and CoS have achieved such despondency and cynicism?!

Anonymous said...

Cynicism..despondency..immorality..chanyakay triks may be for the Armed forces turned slaves not for others...
Today they are masters amd you all are slves..just palin mercinaries ans Cnnon fodders...
What they call in Hindi as "Balli ka bakra...'

Well you all wnat somthing grease the palms of IAS and the Ministers..

And do not tell me it has not been happening... all MES GEs..ASc and Ordance officers have been thoroughly bribing Babus in MoD..getting Services Overruled and getting Promoted inspite of very adverse Crs from Stn Cdrs..

Who are you all..when MoD is there...who are you..??

Gen kadyaan allaged that one of the wives of MoD Babus asked Rs 10 lakh fro him for the promotion... He was a foll he dod not give and therby lost 50 lakhs..

Bhagawat was removed due to pressures of Arms merchants..

I am only asking Chiefs that this way or that way they will have to do it...so why not at least imporve conditions of Srvices and their status... I assure you Chiefs will make a Col equivallant to a IG..
Cusoms. IRs. IADS what noyt and what noy have done it..

Only Fauzies think themselves to be the Contactors of Patriotism...
and lead 1.7 billion fine men they command to slavery..

Every one is selling ..this a great amrket...

Anonymous said...

If any one here thinks they are going to get any thing..he is overruling history and past records..

Except for PBOR issue where the IAS have reasons to divide the offrs and PBOR and play the real Genrals...nothing will be granted... Just see and watch... any one who is in the know of things can refer to to earlier CCPA / CCSA decisions and reports of GoM and show me what has not been scuttled...

GoM on recommendations on Subhramanyam Committee report is biting dust even after seven years in Mod but it was implemented on MHA resulting in more tha 12 JS posts for IAS...

So it is always "up Yours"...

Anonymous said...

Papers on Cabinet decisions disclosable’
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1686450

Dear Nevdeep,

Can we have all Cabinet Papers leading to Decision of 6th CPC now?? Perticularly Notings of MoD.

Any Ex Serviceman can also try this on RTI.
Thanks..

Anonymous said...

@ Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...
@Jatin
"I would however like to differ on the Maj Gen-SAG equation. All SAG officers are not equal to Maj Gens but only those who are empanelled as and holding the appointment of Jt Secy to GoI for the time being can be equated with Maj Gen and that’s where the Pay Com again got it wrong.
Do you know that while a Jt Secy to GoI is listed on the Central Warrant of Precedence, even a DG of the State Police (let alone an ADGP) does not even find mention on it meaning thereby that a Jt Secy GoI would outrank a DGP of a state during ceremonial occasions."


You have referred to the WoP in many a blog and I find that the entries therein have been interpreted to suit one's whims.
For instance Art 11. of WoP reads
"Attorney General of India.
Cabinet Secretary.
Lieutenant Governors within their respective Union Territories,

and Art 12 of WoP reads

"Chiefs of Staff holding the rank of full General or equivalent rank."
but you equate the Chiefs of Staff with cabinet secretary. On the other hand Joint Secretaries to the Government of India and officers of equivalent rank. AND
Officers of the rank of Major-General or equivalent rank are listed in Art 26. Your interpretation defies logic. It is something like Maj Gens holding GoC's appt for the time being only and not other Maj Gens are equivalent to a joint secy.

Incidentally just like DGP and host of other appts in civil services, the ranks of IAF and IN 'do not even find mention' in the WoP.
Last point: As per note Note 12 of WoP

'For the purpose of Article 26, the posts equivalent to the posts of Joint Secretaries to
the Government of India will be determined by the Ministry of Home Affairs.'

I am not sure if MHA has issued any guidelines on the issue. If so comparing scales seems to be the only logical and reasonable criteria for equivalence at least among civil posts under the UoI.

Comments Please!

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony

Incorrect.
In every single post I've stated clearly that Cab Secy is on Article 11 while Chiefs are on Article 12. However both are equivalent as far as pay is concerned (Rs 90,000 fixed).

All IAF and IN ranks find mention in the WoP since it is clearly stated for example 'Lt Gen and equivalent ranks'

No, MHA has not issued any guideline in that aspect. According to them, only Jt Secys are covered by Article 26.

DGPs do not find mention in the WoP and the issue has in the past been taken up by the IPS lobby - without any success.

It's funny how you try to look for 'holes' in my theory. I may go wrong at times like all of us do, but I always attempt to support my material with data and I usually don't shoot off unless I know what I'm saying.

Thank You

Anonymous said...

@ Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...
"In every single post I've stated clearly that Cab Secy is on Article 11 while Chiefs are on Article 12. However both are equivalent as far as pay is concerned (Rs 90,000 fixed)."

Thanks for prompt reply. My apologies if my post hurt your feelings. The point I am trying to drive home is if the Chief's and Cabinet Secy despite being listed in different Articles and despite clear instrs in note 2 of WoP that 'Persons in the Table of Precedence will take rank in order of the number of the
articles.' both are equivalent as far as pay is concerned (Rs 90,000 fixed). Why can't SAG be equated with Jt Secy an in turn with Maj Gen all carrying the same pay scale (now GP).

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony

No I don't mind this. Sorry for being a little sharp :-)

SAG cannot be equated with a Maj Gen in status because the WoP is based on appointments not on grades. To take another example, a Chief Secretary of a State is listed with an Army Commander on Article 23 when within his state but on Article 25 (below a Lt Gen) when outside his state. So it is not the pay grade that the WoP takes into consideration but the appointment being held. That is why full reliance on WoP for pay purposes is in fact faulty since if the Maj Gen-Jt Secy GoI equation from the WoP is being used as a bench mark by Pay Coms to equate pay, the 'Lt Gen is senior to DG CPO' equation on the same WoP is not used to determine pay - a Lt Gen has been granted a scale two steps lower than DG CPO whereas a Lt Gen is on Article 24 and DG CPO on Article 25. Convenience no !!?!!

Anonymous said...

Equal Job and Equal Pay

Main Job and Responsibilities of CPO:

Border Management (BSF,ITBP, SSB, Assam Rifles}
Internal Security (CRPF, CISF)
Disaster management (ALL)
Counter Hijacking Counter terrorist VIP Protection(NSG)
Coastal Management (Coast Guard)

Number of battalions: 737
Officers : 12000

Approximate strength : 10,0000

100 battalions yet to be raised.
Budget 2006 : 12,000 Crores


In spite of this huge mammoth manpower battalions and expenditure They are not able to do any thing worthwhile :

Most of the insurgencies fall on the Armed Forces.
A huge length of the Border is managed by The Armed Forces even during Peace. All difficulties for the Army and all ease for CPOs.
CPOs are incapable of Disaster management...their track record is well known.
Their capabilities of Aid to Civil authorities is questionable and Army has to but in every where.
They have no track record of Anti terrorist actions and anti Hijacking. That too is being managed with the help of Army.


Look who is doing whose job. Is it Army doing their Job or Are the CPOs during Armed Forces Job.

Which "Equal Job Equal Pay" are they asking for. It is in fact Armed Forces which must be paid out of their Internal security and Disaster management Budgets and a severe cut be imposed on their officers pays for their incapability and inefficiency ??

My Dear CPOs you are not doing Army Jobs.... Army is being forced to do your job when you are being heftily paid.


You can only beat up the innocent and unarmed Citizenry and shall continue like that unless there is parallel induction of Armed forces in CPO. That is the only hope.

Anonymous said...

@ annony...

since we r now equal to cpo's so who is asking u to do any other kind of job..do everything that they do...IT'S SO SIMPLE BUDDY...
DASH EVRYTHIGNA ND EVERYONE...

Anonymous said...

Anno Buddy above...

Ask that question your pops in IS Division, Disaster Management Division etc where they occupy plum JS positions and ask Home Minister??

Ask the PM and Govt why Army is forced to do a job for which you all are being paid and then they will tell you why??

I myself have no answer? I wonder over it?I do not I do any ones job.

I only know you can not Fly an aircraft, sail a ship and fire a Gun..or a missile...there is no equality of Job. You can not do Military Jobs. Do your Job and do it better than Military does? Who stops you friend..give some respite to the Military..that is what you are being paid for..

Be a prodfessional...rather than a politician....OK

All the best.

wind_swept said...

@manoj said...
1.on several blogs one defence officer writing as wind_swept has put link of US “Lawmaker backs pay parity, 3.5 percent raise for 2008”

and thereafter rants forever about some decisions etc given in Indian courts..... the article was meant only to higlight the diffent ways India and other nations are approaching the question of pay parity and questions thereof...

perhaps the reader (@manoj) would have served his argument better if he had read this articles mention in my post.....

..........and NO..........i am what you may call a conscientious Indian troubled by the attempts of IAS and others to denigrate the Indian defence forces

Ganesh said...

You have the making of a good rhetorician. First Second-in-Commands in CPO's were in the pay scale 4100-5700 in the 4th CPC and not 3700. Rank pay should not be added to Basic as Lt Col were in the payscale of 13500. Rank pay is totally internal arrangement of the services this is now MSP. Dont misinterpret facts.

Anonymous said...

@ganesh ji..ladoo khao..

agar pata nahin hai to chup raho..

do u know what is SAI...AGAR PATA HAI TO SAI 2/S/98 PHADO..KISI ARMY OFFR SE POOCH LO HE WILL HELP..

DONT MAKE A FOOL OF UR SELF..

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Ganesh

Perfect ! First you do not read the blog properly and then you shoot off your keys with a prejudiced notion of running down the Army.

Get new reading glasses and read the blog properly first. All right let me reproduce for you for the sake of repitition :

"The so called rank of Second-in-Command was in the same grade as Comdt (OG). The point to be noted here is that both were in the Non-Functional Selection Grade pay scales and NOT in Junior Administrative Grade. Comdt (OG) (as also 2IC where it existed) was an officer in the NFSG scale of Rs 4100-5300 while Comdt (SG) was in Rs 4500-5700"

Of course, the rank of Comdt(OG)/2IC till the 5th CPC was in the higher grade of 4100-5300. Then in the 5th CPC, Comdt(OG) and Comdt(SG) were merged and granted the NFSG grade of 14300-18300, even existing 2ICs (same grade as Comdt OG) were granted Rs 14300-18300, however a new (lower) grade of 2IC was created in the Junior Adm Grade (12000-16500) by the 5th CPC and all new appointees to the rank of 2IC were placed in this grade thereby creating a new rank & grade of 2IC which was different and lower than the erstwhile Comdt OG/2IC.

If you have any doubt about the above, please read Paragraphs 70.19 and 70.21 of the 5th CPC report and everything would be clear as a crystal. Please do your homework before accusing others of spreading misinformation.

Regarding Rank Pay - the Union Cabinet after the 4th CPC explicitly approved RP as a part of Basic Pay. Your different perception on the issue makes no difference at all.

rajesh said...

@ Navdeep ..

Sir, May i request you not to respond to such bloggers who have no idea abt facts and figures and are jus shooting **** with confidence..
..They arenot talking anything new. all this has been already explained by u.. either they can't read or they or they dun wan to understand..So Pse dun waste ur time and energy in trying ti educate such Guys ...

regards

Rajesh

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Rajesh

If we do not reply to such comments, our silence is taken as a passport for further plunder. And such comments are taken as truth which (it is thought) we cannot logically rebut.

Anonymous said...

source :livefist

Anonymous said...
The announcement to be made on Nov 1 by PM is like this:

-LtCols to come in PB-4 after 16 years.

-Chiefs have given up and at the end said off the record that forget the parity and status and give us the money

-PBORs will be given the said pension.

Shiv, this is authentic info through reliable sources.

7:45 PM
Shiv Aroor said...
anon@4.05 & 7.45: that's right. our sources tell us the same thing. and that's what we've been reporting on our channel through the day once it was clear the pranab mukherjee panel wasn't about to make any noises today. well, here's hoping for the best.

8:11 PM

Anonymous said...

@ Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh October 27, 2008 7:39 AM

'full reliance on WoP for pay purposes is in fact faulty '

I couldn't have agreed with you more.
BTW Maj Gen is a rank (akin to grade/level/post on the civil side) rather than an appt.

Flabbergasted said...

Offrs,
IMHO Not granting the HAG+ to Lt Gens is a bigger slur to the armed forces because it is at this level that the government (Centre/ state) deal with the armed forces.

Can you imagine corps cdr say GOC in C 3 Corps sitting on an outer table, whereas DGPs of Tripura, Mizoram, Manipur, Meghalaya and Assam are in a conference.

What has happened here? Are these guys going nuts?

Anonymous said...

Producing Arguments and logics of rational or irrational order is the "Maya" or illusions of mind.. associted with al of us..

There is a man above WHO is arguing on Precedences..without understanding that Army or Armed Forces rank was the bench mark for every other appointments till 1952. Even after that to some extent today it reamins so when IAS have successively and treacherously converted every thing for IAS to be the bench mark.

For example earlier it was Maj Gen and Class one Civilian with minimum 28 years standing...today IAS has reversed it as JS and Maj Gen (who attains that appointment and rank in 34 years).

The Guy above is vehemently insisting and saying Maj gen is Nothing. So he is claiming himself to be above laid down Precedence. he is trying himsemself to be set as bench mark.

Every thing is dynamic and the day is in far when a Villege Pradhan will claim himself to be above a Maj Gen leave aside a deputy Commissioner.When Panchyat leader and village Pradhn will consclusively attain influence and power to decide on MP, which is likelty to happen happen soon, the DC will be below him in Precedence. That is much better and that is only way IAS will be screwed. They is how they will have to pay for politics through politics and account for their sins.


I agree with Navdeep that neglect and non answering / rebuttal leads these greedy ignorant and argumentative people to think they are right.

They need to be screwed with their own stupid logic. That is the onlt thing they understand..

Penmil said...

@Ganesh,October 27, 2008 5:39 PM

I agree with you.The Rank Pay as an element of Basic Pay is a good stick to beat the services with anytime.
If the Rank Pay is not Basic Pay, how come the 6CPC had awarded a Grade Pay of 8400 to Brig. Eq.?
Why did the government,even after 'improving the Pay Bands and Grade Pays', by bringing down the status of Lt.Col. Eq.,increase the Grade Pay for Brig.Eq. to 8900?
Was the government magnanimous to Brig.Eq. by granting more than what they deserved?
Was it to atone a guilt haunting since the 4th CPC, for not granting the SAG grade to Brig.Eq.?
The answer could explain how inseparable Rank Pay is from the Basic Pay Scale.

Anonymous said...

@Ganesh above

This is "Danda Maar Thulia " logic that Rank pay is now MSP. MSP is same from Lt to Brig, so how can it be Rank pay?

You are right in saying the Rank Pay was Carved out of the total pay package admissible to a rank and Called rank pay only for internal management. For all other considerations Rank Pay always remained part of Basic Pay. This is the position and not what you are visualsing.

CPO basic pay was their Basic pay and for Armed Forces, Basic Pay meant pay plus rank pay.

In the pursuit of blind interest people have become mad. IAS is demanding seniority on the basis that they enter the Club late!! CPO now say Rank pay was not pay and they are "god's own whiskers"...

I am glad "Fauz" remains a bench mark this way or that way for all these Jokers. I never realized not being able to make it to "fauz" traumatizes the entire Bureaucracy and the danda wielding "Thullas", free loaders "mamas" and untrained killers.

"Fauz", you at least reign supreme somewhere in their psyche. It is to remind you the place of "Pride" and "Paradise Lost" which is to be regained by you all.

Look at those Willy IAS goons of MHA. They have unleashed their CPO Dogs on Armed Forces now. Tomorrow "CPO" go on strike, them MoD IAS goons will unleash their "Armed Forces" dogs on them. They have doing that since ages.

IAS is now aloof and enjoying MOD dogs and MHA dogs fight.What nonsense?? Dogs must understand it.


MHA Dogs, Please do not bite Armed Forces. Go and bite your masters. By biting Armed Forces you will harm them all right but will not get any thing. To get some thing, you will have to lick asses of so many masters in MHA.

Happy Deepawali to you all??

Dear RM Ji, what happened to your promises of Deepawali??? Do not tell me our sleeping CPOs have suddenly woken up inspite of your silence...

Anonymous said...

Keep your chins up Guys and Gals of the Armed Forces.

Never know but pray that the PM has the same courage to take a stand for the Armed Forces as he did on the Indo-US Nuclear Civil Cooperation deal.

Or else be ready for some exodus from the Armed Forces, despite AVSC II !!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Happy Diwaly Guys:

The issues are Minor and only IAS realted. If they adjust a little which they should, there is no problem.

* PB-4 at 14 / 15 years should be all right and accptable to both sides.

*Upgradtion of Maj to DS level should not be a problems.

* Lt Gen is their self crated problem and IAS needs to restore the balance. They should not leave it that. It is their responsibilty now.

So all will be well..

All demands will be met...Antony promised it. Cahndra sekhar Ji may also acy like a good and well meaning Top Bureacrat... after all he must also keen to put a good work on his record book of fare play.


Cheer up....

Anonymous said...

Why all this halla-gulla when it is very clear from the definitions given in CPC-4 & CPC-5 that Rank pay is nothing but a part of Basic Pay? Those are still in doubt may please see how new basic pay is fixed in new scales of CPC-6. It is....
New Basic Pay = (Old Basic Pay + Rank Pay) X Multiplication Factor

Any doubts for anyone?

Anonymous said...

THE FIGHT IS FOR GRADE PAY...AND WAT U R SAYING IS RIGHT THEN Y LT COL IN PB3 AND OTHER'S GRADE PAY FXED LOWER

Anonymous said...

from jottings of mine.blogspot.com
Constitutional Crisis - Threat Vs Reality


The recent actions by the service chiefs, wherein the implementation of the pay commission recommendations were put on hold till a final decision on the anomalies is taken by the government, has drawn considerable comment and flak from a section of the media. Similarly, the Naval and Army Chiefs' communication to their respective commands, informing them of this delay, has been criticized. The critics have termed their actions as 'defiance' and 'insubordination'. Fears have been expressed that such an unprecedented move, if left unchallenged and unpunished, would embolden future chiefs. It may the constitutional order .... maybe even the dreaded C word!


The voices, apparently inspired by motivated interests, are crying wolf about something which may happen in the future . What about what is already happening for the past so many years - isn't the bureaucracy already undermining the system for their personal gains every day?


A simple exercise will tell you the difference between the military and the bureaucrats. Go down to NOIDA. First visit Sector 15A - the abode of babus (old babus never retire - they just step into other roles to continue receiving government patronage). Notice the houses, the parks, the cars. Now drive on further to Sector 28 where the retired faujis are fading away. Notice anything? Any differences? These are not the palatial bungalows like you saw a little while back. Why? aren't the two services supposed to be paid similarly? Where does the difference lie?


The fact is that the bureaucrats are eating their way into a plush lifestyle - at the cost of the nation. The latest example is the blatant subverting of the constitutional process and overriding the cabinet decision by granting four increments to themselves rather than two as approved by the cabinet.


Where is the sanctity of the constitution that these people keep beating their collective breasts about?

-nocribs

questions said...

def: Prerevised scales with 6600 as new grade pay are 10000-15200 and Rs.10325-10975 and 10650-15850. For armed forces the 6600GP starts with 11600+1200 i.e. even without rank pay the Maj scale was more
28 Oct 08, 14:14

def: Also, we must ask the member of the 6CPC whether they were aware that Rank pay was part of the Basic pay for fixing the Grade pay for armed forces. I think there was nobody to tell them this fact.
28 Oct 08, 14:13

def: This is exactly what we will ask from the courts of law
28 Oct 08, 14:05
def: This was what COSC has done which all of u should be aware
28 Oct 08, 14:03

def: Similarly For S-24 14300-400-18300 , and S-25 15100-400-18300 with 6CPC giving 7600 inPB3 and 8300 in PB4, The COSC gave BOTH 8700 in PB4, Now they have become equal in status!
28 Oct 08, 13:57

def: @Navdeep: Pl ans my quiry, Inthe 6CPC prerevised scales of both 12000-18000 and 14300-18300 were given GradePay of 7600 in PB3, whereas after COSC 7600in PB3and 8700 in PB4, has there status changed!

Anonymous said...

Lt col are traditionaly placed in DRDO as SC E Not D and Cols as F Not E as Stated, please do not make factualy wrong statements. There can be no equilance of military ranks to civilian appointments. It is only the functional convenience in an integrated working environment. Now the issue is why a capt/Ltcol / Col/ Brig who is drawing basic pay( basic pay factually includes rank pay as on date, pl donot mislead by misqouting) as 10000 /12800/15100 with annual increment of 400/17100 with annual increment of 450/19600 with annual increment of 500 at the start of the scale not being placed similar to their civilian counterparts drawing the similar basic pay in the approved VI CPC. Can anybody justify why a civilian drawing 14300 with AI 400 on comletion of 13 yrs including training period be placed at 37400 with GP of 8700 whereas Lt Col with 13 yrs excluding training period of 1.5 yrs whose drawing 15100 with AI 400 be placed 1.86*15100 with GP of 7600 which works out to be almost 11000 lower to a civilian with whom he was drawing 800 more basic pay in the existing scale ,so is the case with other ranks. Any reason/ justification for such a drastic reduction of basic pay of military leaders/officers from Capt to Brig. As far as equivlance is concerned, warrant of precedence issued by MHA in 2007 lays down protocols w/o any dispute. further since no civilian can perform the duties of military rank without being found suitable, then inducted, trained and then earn his rank, therefore military ranks can neither to be equated nor can be held as equal,senior or junior to any civilian appointments. In Indian Civil services, there are no selection boards but DPCs where person found fit gets promotion whereas In defence there are manadatory exams to be passed and selection boards for the ranks of Colonels and above where large %age of persons found fit do not make it to the next rank. Its only 25 to 30% offrs who make it to the Colonels ranks after 20 yrs of military service, only 10 to 12 % make it to the Brig and only 3.75 % make it to the Maj Gen rank after 32 yrs of military service. Whereas in civil services almost every direct recruit offr makes it to grade of Joint secretary between 16 to 18 yr of his service thus drawing the pay of Maj Gen. Where is even a pay equivalace? In services in olden days offrs never talked about about pay and money, it was thought to be below par subject. As result their pay and allce have been reduced successively, thereafter their status and honour by equating their ranks with the civilians basic pay. It is high time to stop this indiscriminate injustice to the armed forces ranks who are even pledging their fundamental constitutional rights without any legitimate compensation. If a Lt Col or equivalent in defence services after 14.5 yrs ( includes 1.5 yr trg at IMA)of gp A military service is equated even in pay & allce to a Dy Secretary with 4 to 5 yrs or Sc D and similarly the other ranks , then I leave it you to imagine the quality of future genaration of military leadership and its consequences on sovereignity of the country. I must state that the most of the defence offr will qualify to work as civilian in their respective or higher grades but i duobt even a small fraction of civilians can qualify in their grades to work as military offrs and perform their military duties. To conclude, please for god sake do not make incorrect comparisons and attempt to mislead,if you do that it will be your greatest disservice to the country. Armed forces in their magnanimity even today not asking their full legitmate dues, they have just requested the govt to atleast maintain present day pay parity in the revised scales vis a vis civilians.

vineet said...

Dear Navdeep, will some inform the general readers the minimum length of service required for getting the ranks in Army now. what % of officer gets the promotion as Maj, Lt Col and as Col. Is it true that Army has officers at the level of Col who are metric pass and joined as solidier. How many of them are there?- VINEET

vineet said...

Dear Navdeep, will some inform the general readers the minimum length of service required for getting the ranks in Army now. what % of officer gets the promotion as Maj, Lt Col and as Col. Is it true that Army has officers at the level of Col who are metric pass and joined as solidier. How many of them are there?- VINEET

Anonymous said...

@vineet..go to indian army site at nic...to know..qualifications of offr...but still for ur kind information..metric is a qualification to be a jawan in army not colonels..all clonels in armed forces r post graduates...repeat post graduates...

Anonymous said...

Asian Age 3 Nov 2008
By Our Special Correspondent

The armed forces are once again upset at what they allege are certain arbitrary amendments in the draft instructions issued by the ministry of defence (MoD) to the three services on the implementation of the new pay scales. The armed forces allege that these amendments will dilute the recommendations of the Sixth Pay Commission as already cleared by the Cabinet.

These are the alleged change in the definition of rank pay and military service pay as well as alleged amendment in pay fixation of colonels and brigadiers that put it equivalent to the S-24 scale of the civil services instead of the S-25 scale. The armed forces have alleged that this arbitrary amendment will result in colonels and brigadiers drawing lower basic pay than what they are entitled to.

Sources in the armed forces confirmed to this newspaper that a letter had been written by the services to the ministry of defence (MoD) on the issue and that the matter had been taken up with defence minister A.K. Antony.

Anonymous said...

Finally!
From the Front Page of the Asian Age
By Sridhar Kumaraswamy

SHORTAGE OF OFFICERS HITS WORK IN INFANTRY

The defence min istry has admitted that infantry battalions in the Indian Army have only about nine officers posted in each unit, despite an authorised strength of 22 officers. More alarmingly, the MoD says the actual number of officers posted in each battalion is even below nine at certain times “due to various professional commitments”. The Army faces an overall shortage of 11,119 officers, the latest figures show.

A defence ministry representative recently told a parliamentary committee: “We are authorised 22 officers in an infantry battalion. As against that, we have about nine... (but) due to various professional commitments... the actual number is even lesser.” The MoD admits this shortage is affecting the level of interaction necessary between officers and soldiers, resulting in increased stress.

“It is because of this paucity that the type of interaction we need at our junior officers’ level is lacking. Today... you have to be much more intimate because the troops are better educated,” the MoD told the committee.

The parliamentary standing committee on defence also recorded the evidence of a “non-official witness” who told it: “As you are all aware, the armed forces are short of over 12,000 officers, which is almost 25 per cent of the authorised strength. This shortage is in the units mainly. The formation headquarters run with full authorisation, and are therefore not affected. A unit with authorised strength of 24 officers has no more than 10 to 12 (officers)... Of these, some are on leave and (others) on various courses or studies... Sometimes merely three or four officers are present in the unit at any one time.” South Block sources say the severe shortage of officers has resulted in tremendous pressure on officers posted in infantry units engaged in counter-insurgency operations, since each officer eventually ends up doing the work that should have been handles by at least two or three officers.

Anonymous said...

PUNJAB SEEK's PM's INTERVENTION
Express News Service
Posted: Nov 03, 2008 at 0516 hrs IST

Mohali, November 02 The Punjab government, on Sunday, urged Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh to immediately intervene to resolve the pay issue of defence personnel in view of the recommendations of the Sixth Pay Commission, which had generated much anguish among the serving and retired personnel of the country’s Armed Forces.

Addressing an impressive gathering of ex-servicemen from five districts of the state in Mohali, Punjab Minister for Defence Services Welfare, Capt Kanwaljit Singh, announced to amend the present law provisions for the speedy disposal of land disputes involving ex-servicemen.

Capt Kanwaljit said soldiers of the Armed Forces were fighting on double fronts as India was facing internal and external threat, but their morale had come down drastically after the recommendations by the pay panel, removing the equality the armed personnel shared with their civil counterparts. “Soldiers fighting at tough battlefields are being discriminated against by the panel and so far the Centre has failed to resolve the issue,” the minister said, adding that the widespread anguish and despair in the armed forces was an alarming bell for the country.

He appealed the Prime Minister to immediately take up the matter, which he (Capt Kanwaljit) had earlier taken up with the Defence Minister.

Capt Kanwaljit said the SAD-BJP government in the state was taking care of the needs of the ex-servicemen and was committed to ensuring their well-being.

Recollecting that people from Punjab have always remained on the forefront of sacrificing for the country, the minister said to promote this trend and help the children of ex-servicemen, the Punjab government has opened four training institutes. These centres provide free training for preparatory exams of different fields, including NDA and others.

The minister said that the state government has decided to amend the policy regarding the provision of facilities to the families of the pre-1999 war heroes.

He said that Army was facing the enemy at home-front that was stronger than the external aggression and accordingly families of those soldiers who had been declared war casualty by the Ministry of Defence would get the benefit of this policy.

“We have instructed the deputy commissioners and senior superintendents of police in the state to give proper honour to the ex-servicemen,” he said, while warning that that any officials found guilty in the matter would be dealt with sternly.

Capt Kanwaljit urged for the institution of a federation, involving the groups of ex-servicemen, to take on a common goal of the welfare of ex-servicemen. A meeting of all groups would be convened in this regard, added Kanwaljit.

The Minister also gave away an appointment letter to the widow of a war hero besides distributing cheques of Rs 5 lakh each to 16 families of slain soldiers.

sachin said...

dear navdeep sir
i don't know the history but a colonel of army is commanding ard 500 0r 600 people then hw a commandant commanding 1200 people be equated to lt col

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,
Let me clarify that Commandant of Indian Coast Guard has been made to wear the stripes of a Commander due to the autocracy of Navy. Also, the commandant wears collar tabe which are worn by the colonels/ equivalents in the defence. A commandant (SG) of all other CPOs wear shoulder stripes/ badges equivalent to that of a colonel/ equivalent. The day Coast Guard has its own Director general and is out of the control of Navy, the commandant (SG) shall wear stripes equivalent to that of Capts(Navy)

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir,
We Indian have started realising that the UPA Govt. has some hidden motive behind all this fuss. If they can throw 73,000 croes to Mah. and also 130,000 crores for Rojgar Yojnaa making every villagers a majdoor; nothing can be expected from them.
Pray for BJP.All the anomalies in pay packet, status and Honor of Armed forces would be resolved.
Armed forces would be given a separete status .No. comparision with civilians, who are called public servent,which term can not be used for Armed forces as commissioned rank is the representative of the State i.e.'President of the Republic'.
There is great misunderstanding in the Goverance .In fact the Pay and others percks must only be decided by the Parliament as being done for MPs, Ministers ,Governors and President.
May god give wisdom to our babus, who are not understanding the situation.

Anonymous said...

I agree with your views.
We must do some thing for our forces.They can not be graded as servent of Babus. If we allow it then day is not far when another Nadir Shah or Mohamed Gori would invade this and slaughter Delhi.
Since Armed forces can not speak, the citizens of the country must speak for them,if we expect from them full safty and security from them.
NATION WHO DO NOT RESPECT THEIR ARMY,ALWAYS BECOME SLAVE.THUS TO PROTECT OUR HONOR,FREEDOM,LIBERTY; WE HAVE TO PROTECT ARMED FORCES NOW AND SAVE THEM FROM A PLANED CONSPERACY.

patwari said...

we have been talking a lot about the armed forces.. needless to say they deserve what they get. As far as armed forces are concerned, the service conditions for the officers are absolutely fair and if anybody, who is cribbing about the same, might as well first have a look at the service conditions of the civil police, (not at IPS level.. who by and large do nothing more than making lives of their subordinates miserable). The police is blamed for everything they do and everything they don't do. Their pay structure is pathetic and living conditions are, to say the least, horrible..inhuman. The so called respectable gentlemen of our society who don't have any respect for law but for only their clout, frown at policemen who try to implement law .. say about traffic violation or road discipline on street. These so called civilised people need lessons on civilisation. They must first learn to respect the law and obey the same which will automatically earn respect for a policeman who will then have motivation to perform his job well. The foot soldiers, say up to the rank of inspector and even the dy. superintendents are required to fight war like situation almost every day. People simply ignore police reforms by saying that the police are corrupt. But how many of us know that a large number of policemen live hand to mouth, with the government not providing them any amenities and thier job providing them no scope for making money. Only the ones who are corrupt, like the enounter specialists who are believed to be killing for financial benefits and the governement providing them largese in the form of medals et all, are generally respected by our timid and hypocratic society, while those who meticulously work are never recognised. We talk of shortage of manpower but we do not have any shortage of men. A large number of policemen are used by our politicians and senior police officials for their personal security and personal work. Besides, the illmotivated and neglected force is left with no initiative, what with five to six policeman performing a task which can actually performed by a single policeman. The police force is absolutely ill-managed.. hope someone wakes up and address this issue of highest importance for ensuring internal security...

Anonymous said...

Dear Major,

I am have been trying to include your blog of "Tradition & History: Police Ranks (with special reference to CPOs)" on the Wikipedia Page for Indian Police Service. On that page there is a topic of "Ranks and insignia of Gazetted Officers" in which they have compared the insignia of IPS with Army, which again gives an impression of equivalence. I have tried umpteenth number of times to include but just in few minutes somebody comes and delete it. The support that I am request from you, is to mobilize your followers to keep a track on this page and ensure this part of your blog is included on Wikipedia. The general public will access Wikipedia on a far frequent basis than it would access your blog. I say this with utmost respect to your blog. You have brought out eye-opener topics for which I am sure the AF community and the fans of AF community. Thank you