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Tuesday, November 4, 2008

The make believe world of inferiority : Courtesy 6th CPC

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Before I start, some basic facts about history. The controversy of equation has now whittled down to the concept of rank pay. So let’s forget rank pay for a while and go back to 3rd CPC days when there was no rank pay. The 3rd CPC NFSG scale of Rs 1650-1800 is now in Pay Band-4 (Rs 37,400-67000) with a Grade Pay of Rs 8700 while the 3rd CPC scale for Lt Col @ Rs 1750-1950 is today in Pay Band-3 (Rs 15,600-39100) with a Grade Pay of Rs 7600.

Is the IAS to blame for this mess ? I don’t think so.

All the chaos we are in seems a direct resultant of incorrect self-created pay equation reflected by the 6th CPC on page 73 of the report. But who bells the cat my friends ?. The 6th CPC stated that the closest comparison of Military officers was that with the Indian Police Service. The most apt evaluation should be the 3rd CPC since at that point of time the ugly Rank Pay controversy was still a story for the future. That said, after wrongly showing Lt Col equal to Junior Administrative Grade (JAG), the following is a recap of what the 6th CPC had to say on relativities in its comparative tables about the ranks of Colonel and Brigadier :

Non-Functional Selection Grade (Rs 2000-2250) was shown equal to Colonel (Rs 1950-2175)

DIG (Rs 2250-2500) was shown equal to Brigadier (Rs 2200-2400)

But dear Sirs and Ma’ams, unfortunately the above is a lie.

The scale shown against NFSG (Rs 2000-2250) was actually the scale of a DIG and not NFSG whereas the scale shown against DIG (Rs 2250-2500) was actually the scale of the erstwhile then existing rank of Additional IG (later merged into IG) and not of DIG. And would you like to know what the Non-Functional Selection Grade scale was for IPS, well it was Rs 1650-1800. What about Lt Col you may ask, well friends Lt Col was placed in Rs 1750-1950 and today we have the Ministry of Expenditure giving us a lecture that Lt Col was not equivalent to NFSG but to JAG. What hogwash !. In fact, it was the scale of a Major that was closer to NFSG – a Major was placed in Rs 1550-1800 (and Rs 1550-1900 for Major Selection Grade). Moreover the IPS scale of Rs 1650-1800 was known as Selection Grade and not Non-Functional Selection Grade as stated in 6th CPC.

With particular reference to the Lt Col-NFSG controversy, here is the actual 3rd CPC comparison with the IPS:
(Note : The figure in brackets is the 6th CPC Scale)

Lt Col : Rs 1750-1950 (Pay Band-3 with Grade Pay Rs 7600)
Selection Grade of the IPS : Rs 1650-1800 (Pay Band-4 with Grade Pay Rs 8700)
Major : Rs 1550-1800 / Rs 1550-1900 for Major Selection Grade : (Pay Band-3 with Grade Pay Rs 6600)

Why did then the 6th CPC show an NFSG scale as Rs 2000-2250 while it was actually 1650-1800 and a DIG’s scale as 2250-2500 when it was actually 2000-2250 ?

Historically, whenever there is a merger of scales, lower scales are merged into higher scales, but in case of the military, the closest military scales have been merged into lower civil scales, why ?

In the comparison tables, a Captain has been shown against the Senior Time Scale (STS) in 3rd CPC and then against Junior Time Scale (clubbed with Lieut) in the 4th CPC. Who authorized this degradation ? Is there any order to the effect ? No, there is none. There is nothing in the 4th CPC report to suggest that a Capt is being downgraded from STS to JTS. Again 6th CPC’s fertile imagination at work !

4th CPC clearly states (admitted by 6th CPC too) that rank pay was carved out of basic pay. If that be so, how can they now say that rank pay is not a part of basic ?. When a continuous running pay band of Rs 2300-5100 was created for all ranks from 2/Lieut till Brig by the 4th CPC, rank pay was added into basic pay as a differentiating factor. If we say that rank pay is not a part of basic, it would amount to saying that all ranks from 2/Lieut till Brig have the same status since they were in the same scale of Rs 2300-5100.

Why this ‘kanjoosi’ with the Armed Forces only ? To take an example, in defence services with over 55000 officer cadre strength, there are just a little over 20 officers in the Apex Scale of Rs 80,000 fixed (Army Commander’s scale) and still there is opposition to granting the HAG+ scale to other Lt Generals. In comparison, the IAS with a cadre strength of about 4700 officers has about 215 officers in the Apex scale, the Indian Forest Service with a strength of about 2600 officers has about 30 officers in the Apex scale while the IPS with about 3900 officers also has 30 officers in the same scale.

The govt is well meaning, the political leadership is also not to be blamed but the senior bureaucracy, especially in the Ministry of Finance, should deal with the issue with an open mind and not depend on clerical notes put up by the lower echelons of governance. A desk officer or section officer has no right to comment on equivalence or relativities of the military with the civil services and senior civil officers also should put their grey matter into gear - it is not difficult, just forget the 6th CPC tables on Page 73 and start with a clean slate, unlocked attitude and new tables.

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125 comments:

Anonymous said...

i dont think the new pay scale has been implemented for the armed forces. there is hardly any difference between my september and october pay

Anonymous said...

@ Navdeep
An Eye-Opening Write-up of BARE FACTS, But who is listening? Except for the aggrieved ones I don't think any single soul who matters even bothers about going into such depths. Hats-Off Friend

samy said...

Navdeep pl tell us how appch Court with this

Anonymous said...

may god bless you
please keep up the yeoman service of fighting for those how have been given no voice
the coming generations (both to serve in the AF and the future common citizens will be indebted to you for preventing a catastrophe that is surely going to happen if resonable and logical voices are not heard

Vaishnav jan to tene kahiye je
PeeD paraayi jaaNe re

Anonymous said...

"Others abide our question. Thou art free. We ask and ask: Thou smilest and art still, Out-topping knowledge."
- Matthew Arnold

thank you Maj NAvdeep singh

KK said...

Maj Navdeep hats off to you.No one could have brought out what you have. I only hope that this reaches the GOM and they take the just and fair decision expeditiously so as to let the Foces feel they are getting what they deserve.

Anonymous said...

I still can't understand why the service chiefs when they met the PM on 13th Aug 2oo8,prior to publication of gazette,did not analyse all these old old facts and request PB4 for Lt Col along with COL and Brigadier.

This issue might have taken a different direction.

They just wanted PB4 for Col and Brigadier only, at that time.

Food for Thought.

rajan said...

Kindly clarify Mr Navdeep this website is meant for officers military benifits or indian military benifits . Any way I am not finding any issue you are discussing about PBOR. They have certain serious problems that purly connected with their survival -not the status. understood . have you ever discussed any of their matters in your website other than Lt col issue verses IAS.
LET me give an issue so serious, concerned with PBOR in AIR FORCE , NAVY AND ARMY. x GP - diplam qalified trades basic salary is starting from 5200 in 6CPC and their grade pay is 2000 where as civilian diploma candidates in pb2 ie. 9500 AND grade pay is 4200 . almost half the salary . SUch a huge injuctice played with pbor and they are not even acccess to Internet or media like officers or not allow to open their mouth other than through proper channel who will represent their issues , Evern chiefs are only worried about status issue of officers and not even not knowing the issue of PBOR , BECAUSE THEIR statements IN MEDIA SAYS THE SAME.
there are many issues such and is it not your moral resposibility disscuss in your net????

Anonymous said...

Annonymous 5.42

I completely support u. We need to do our best to uplift ur pay and status. I assure u that a majority of officers feel that way.

In general argument is given that civilans were inducted with diploma and u were given diploma after ur induction as part of ur trg at relatively lower age.

But u should at least move to the same scale after obtaining diploma. This point may be included as one of the anomalies after deliberations at appropriate level and be taken up with govt.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

Just a suggestion, can we have a compendium of all the blogposts made and delivered to the likes of tirkey, Sushma Nath and Mrs Pannu........ if need be you could add a donate link to cover the costs......... Maybe this issue would make some sense to the otherwise senseless people who are palying havoc with us.men and officers alike.....

Force1 said...

In case their pay has also been affected there is no reason why the forces should take it lying down.We should also stress the fact that a soldier is a soldier(policemen and paramilitary included) and cannot be equated with a class 3 or 4 employee.Maybe grades in between would be a solution

danny said...

@rajan
Please have your facts right. PB2 is starting from 9300 and not 9500. No Gp X PBOR will start with 5200. Further the qualification for X group is Maximum 10+2 and not diploma, though some persons with diploma join as PBOR. In all such cases the pay is determined by the min qualification. How can some one fight based on wrong facts. Look closely we are better off than all other services with similar entry qualifications.

Anonymous said...

2annony at 5:42...

the issue of pbor has already been taken up...regarding the grade pay..it is also one of the anomaly ..SO DONT GET DISHEARTENED..

rgkadam said...

thanks

rgkadam said...

If fraud pulled up by the pay commission is now known to every one, what is the hitch. Does it mean that lower beureaucracy continue projecting incorrect/fabricated facts and everyone else will just have to lump it. Now it is more of an self esteem issue rather than money. One feels like an incompetent sitting duck who can just watch injustice being done and not even be able to lift a finger. Does this country deserve only incompetent ( and helpless, which we are turned into ) defence forces.

Force1 said...

Why Cry Now?The forces have been slowly emasculated in the name of discipline!There was a time when no one dared to misbehave with Faujis,not only out of respect but also out of fear.Today you cannot even defend your honour.Incase you are harsh with someone who has misbehaved with you,You are at the mercy of a policeman who can barely hide his smile and your own superiors will not support you-taking you to be a troublemaker.So you are condemned even without a trial!So many times we have come across policemen or others asking bribes and it is our own colleagues who advice us to compromise in the name of maturity.How more helpless do You want to get? Anyone who cant save his own honour can certainly not save any body elses honour.It has denerated from being gentlemanly to being a coward!

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir

When and where did the degeneration start

Should we to beleive that it really was un-noticed till the 6th cpc gazette got issued?

I am sure it must have been a slow process over the years from 3rd cpc onwards.

One really need's to analyse this

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,
Your research work is astounding and indeed an eye opener. But these facts needs to be told to people who are going to decide about the pay bracket for Lt Col in near future. You are a man with contacts, is there are way by which this information reaches them so that at least their judgment is not based on color vision of some disgruntled babu.

Thanks and keep up the good work.

R S Dasila said...

Hats-off to Navdeep for welresearched article. What is the means and media thru which facts and figures could be brought to the notice of Chairman high level committee(Mr P Mukherjee)in the same fashion as brought out here. I am sure the case must have been projected in the similar manner to justify our core issues taken up for resolving with the Govt. I feel the chairman of 6 CPC has not given due attention to this vital issue hence this anomaly which was
further aggravated by another committee chaired by cabinet secretary. On top of that Fin Min
also didnot study properly and brought the same before the cabinet. The cabinet approved the same without realising the great injustice being done to the armed forces. I sincerely request these
facts and figures alongwith arguements/justification/comparison must be brought to the notice of Chairman High Level Committee and PM at the earliest possible before the matter is decided and approved by the Govt.

Anonymous said...

PB3 IMLEMENTED IN IAF FOR WG CDRS IN OCT PAY SLIP.....GOVT PRESSURE HAS WORKED.........STOP SPECULATIONS NOW.

Anonymous said...

Annonymous 8.15

in this forum everybody knows about. Either u were sleeping or just came back from some forward area where there is no eaccess to inter net.

Heretic said...

Thanks Navdeep for your unusual perseverance and pursuing this matter which has upset the faujis with rare intelligence and insight. You have singlehandedly done this research and brought out facts like no other atleast in public knowledge. I cannot congratulate you enough.
But I too am curious like so many other’s here, "Is anyone listening?" If they were, the matter should have been resolved by now. The delay has made me quite pessimistic about what is happening behind the curtains in the corridors of power.

benny said...

Dear Navdeep , I am at my wits end now after trying to leave this org for the last 4 years .. can i ask for some legal assistance from you ?
Blake

Anil IAS said...

Like everyone, I would like to commend Major Navdeep for well researched facts. However, is anyone other than "you" interested people reading such blog. Major Navdeep, there is an urgent need to bring all these facts to those who matter.GoM, PM, Sonia Gandhi, Indian Public, television, print media. I am not from Defence but I request all of you to use your means and bring out the facts to Indian Public. Otherwise it shall be a shame to be called a Defence Officer

IAF said...

good job, Major

Anonymous said...

@Navdeep / Maj Navdeep

"in defence services with over 55000 officer cadre strength, there are just a little over 20 officers in the Apex Scale of Rs 80,000 fixed (Army Commander’s scale) and still there is opposition to granting the HAG+ scale to other Lt Generals. In comparison, the IAS with a cadre strength of about 4700 officers has about 215 officers in the Apex scale, the Indian Forest Service with a strength of about 2600 officers has about 30 officers in the Apex scale while the IPS with about 3900 officers also has 30 officers in the same scale."

Total number of officers in GoI is about 400000 including about 70000 Gp A Offrs. It is not proper to compare service officers of all hues(IC(NDA/CDS/TE)/PC/SSC/SLC and what not) with IAS/IPS/IFS.

Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeep
Supelatives cannot convey the gratitude that we guys owe to you for making us heard. You are a real force multiplier to our cause. I am certain services would have been fooled by now had you not brought out the bare facts. The need of the hour is to bring out these facts to the public though I am sure our guys sitting in the pay commission cells must be refering to your research prior to preparing their responses to govt.

Thanks a ton and please keep it going.

Anonymous said...

Dear Major,
A good research and a commendable work of figures undertaken. But i am sure u are confused about the figures only without going into the merit of the facts.

(a) Considering the srength, one offr works out for every 20 PBOR, in civil set up for this figure only a mate is available and certainly not an officer.

(b) The goi has realised since begining the type of work, service conditions and related compensation for the duty discharged and ealy retirement and the qualification possessed.

(c) Since the nature of job is / was different, in order to attract talent, the monitory compensation was supposed to be higher than the civil servants.

(d) So u should not always get confused by the absolute figures.

(e) GOI and pay commissions have always tried to compensate the varying factors through mechanisms of higher pay and rank pay etc.

(f) now the same compensations are available in the form of different allowances specifically and accordingly the pay and grade pay have been devised by 6th CPC.

(g) In case a Lt Col is discharging the duties of STS officers of civil then why the pay should be equal to the Director level officer.

(h) the down gradation of Lt Col was accepted in 85 - 86 and now after AVSC Ph I. It is a well known fact that the cadre reviews always bring down gradation of the rank or dilution of authority, and as early this fact is understood & accpepted by the officers would be in good spirit and health of every body.

Anonymous said...

@ anon above November 4, 2008 9:53 PM

Please be aware that what ever work a Director is doing that is done by a clark also .. so lets treat them at par.. both of them are sitting over fiels and clearing them only once they get something under the table...

How can u people talk like uneducated buggers.. put u r arse on fire like a lt col in field area and then talk about kind of work or no of people under u .. till that time jus sit in u r AC houses, drink CSD ka liquor and eat govt money.. thats what u r good at

Anonymous said...

Ok
don't get distubued. Lt col shold be given HAG+. Director should be placed in SB1. All IAS/ IPS/ Grp A civilian Officers are uneducated etc etc.....
Happy Now.
Have a nice sleep.

Anonymous said...

@ANNONY AT 9:53...

1ST OF ALL U R FROM BRO..

2NDLY..FAUJIS R NOT MAJDOORS...BY THE CHEIF ENGINEER KE FARJI CERTIFICATE PER KI U R DPLY AHEAH OR ALONG WITH ARMY..RATION DRAW KAR RAHE HO NA..MAST RAST RAHO..AS SUCH U PEOPLE R NO LONGER REQD SINCE ALL WORK OF BORDER ROADS IS NOW DONE BY CONTRACTORS AND NOT PIONEERS AS IT USED TO BE EARLIER..AND EVERY BORDER ROADS OFFICER HAS JUST TWO CLERKS UNDER HIM..SO WHAT SHOULD BE UR STATUS..

i dont know from where u people bring funny funny logic ....i m amazed...

Anonymous said...

Has any officer put up ROG till date? Thats the Ans!

Anonymous said...

thanks for the good work major ....but seriously is there any way we can get this through to the people who matter...assuming their intent to be honest of course!! frankly some of us are begining to get over it and marking time for a second supercession. keep up the good work
regards
IAF

true soldier said...

Do we have someone called a Defence Minister in this country? What is he doing? Does he have any idea that the situation is leading to a sort of mutiny? Armed Forces have lost their faith in the MoD babus. They are taunting us to shame. What a pity.

Anonymous said...

heretic its nice to read u after a gap of long time. u have almost vanished. may be u did not have any internet connection at the new place of ur posting. get in touch be connected. expect good news shortly. buddy we would definately make it inspite of many in decision making process against moving us in pb4.

Force1 said...

Dear anonymous 9.34,
You have brought a very valid point regarding the no of people under your command.It is the nature of the job that is more important. You really cant lead 20 mates to war let alone make them even shovel stones.As regarding work, the Captain of a large Oil tanker has a crew of only 20 -22 men( I checked this ut recently),so ideally he should be equivalent to a platoon Commander.
Also even in large ministries Jt Sec/Sec/Spl sec level Officers do not even Command over 20 people(No,Not over their peon-try treating hom like a stick orderly for a min) and even in Districts you do not Command but administer over a large number of citizens as a public servant and not as an Officer though you maybe a Gazetted officer of the Central Government.By definition the Forces have the Only Officers who are commissioned and they are not designated as public servants in any communique or order. May the force be with you and regards,

Anonymous said...

@ Maj Navdeep
I am a serving Lt Col.
I wish to complain for sufferring loss of status at the hands of the PM and his cabinet.
How do I go about it?

Force1 said...

I have been posting these comments inspite of the fact that I have been subject any such adverse privations but have seen them around and maybe planning to quit and say goodbye in the next year or so,due to the bitter taste left in the mouth.But these are important aspects which need to be brought out Regards,

Anonymous said...

please note that every upgradation of post bring downgradation of authority.At the time of third pay commission co was LT col now col. the down gradation of Lt Col was accepted in 85 - 86 and now after AVSC Ph I. It is a well known fact that the cadre reviews always bring down gradation of the rank or dilution of authority, and as early this fact is understood & accpepted by the officers would be in good spirit and health of every body.DO not cry now every offr if joins army will retire as BRIG,EVERY ONE BECOME LT COL WITHOUT FASING ANY SELECTION BOARD

Force1 said...

Amendment to post at 9.35 am ,
It should be read as-I have NOT BEEN SUBJECT TO SUCH adverse PRIVATIONS

Anonymous said...

Can any one go back to second pay commission and scales of pay say 1n 1935 and 1945. What was the pay+perks comarision at that time? Can Maj Navdeep enlighten us to make the case stronger? Can aexel sheet be put here showing the scales of Army and ICS from the time services came in to being mentioning the Rule no etc for all to see?

Anonymous said...

The President of India DR. A. P. J. Abdul Kalam 's Speech in Hyderabad .

Why is the media here so negative?
Why are we in India so embarrassed to recognize our own strengths, our
achievements?
We are such a great nation. We have so many amazing success stories but
we refuse to acknowledge them. Why?
We are the first in milk production.
We are number one in Remote sensing satellites.
We are the second largest producer of wheat.
We are the second largest producer of rice.
Look at Dr. Sudarshan , he has transferred the tribal village into a
self-sustaining, self-driving unit. There are millions of such
achievements but our media is only obsessed in the bad news and failures
and disasters.
I was in Tel Aviv once and I was reading the Israeli newspaper. It was
the day after a lot of attacks and b! ombardments and deaths had taken
place. The Hamas had struck. But the front page of the newspaper had the
picture of a Jewish gentleman who in five years had transformed his
desert into an orchid and a granary. It was this inspiring picture that
everyone woke up to. The gory details of killings, bombardments, deaths,
were inside in the newspaper, buried among other news.

In India we only read about death, sickness, terrorism, crime.. Why are
we so NEGATIVE? Another question: Why are we, as a nation so obsessed
with foreign things? We want foreign T.Vs, we want foreign shirts. We
want foreign technology.



Why this obsession with everything imported. Do we not realize that
self-respect comes with self-reliance? I was in Hyderabad giving this
lecture, when a 14 year old girl asked me for my autograph. I asked her
what her goal in life is. She replied: I want to live in a developed
India . For her, you and I will have to build this developed India . You
must proclaim. India is not an under-developed nation; it is a highly
developed nation.


Do you have 10 minutes? Allow me to come back with a vengeance.

Got 10 minutes for your country? If yes, then read; otherwise, choice is
yours.
YOU say that our government is inefficient.
YOU say that our laws are too old.
YOU say that the municipality does not pick up the garbage.
YOU say that the phones don't work, the railways are a joke. The airline
is the worst in the world, mails never reach their destination.
YOU say that our country has been fed to the dogs and is the absolute
pits.

YOU say, say and say. What do YOU do about it?

Take a person on his way to Singapore. Give him a name - 'YOURS'. Give
him a face - 'YOURS'. YOU walk out of the airport and you are at your
International best. In Singapore you don't throw cigarette butts on the
roads or eat in the stores. YOU are as proud of their Underground links
as they are. You pay $5 (approx. Rs. 60) to drive through Orchard Road
(equivalent of Mahim Causeway or Pedder Road) between 5 PM and 8 PM. YOU
come back to the parking lot to punch your parking ticket if you have
over stayed in a restaurant or a shopping mall irrespective of your
status identity... In Singapore you don't say anything, DO YOU? YOU
wouldn't dare to eat in public during Ramadan, in Dubai . YOU would not
dare to go out without your head covered in Jeddah.
YOU would not dare to buy an employee of the telephone exchange in
London at 10 pounds (Rs.650) a month to, 'see ! to it that my STD and
ISD calls are billed to someone else.'YOU would not dare to speed beyond
55 mph (88 km/h) in Washington and then tell the traffic cop, 'Jaanta
hai main kaun hoon (Do you know who I am?). I am so and so's son. Take
your two bucks and get lost.' YOU wouldn't chuck an empty coconut shell
anywhere other than the garbage pail on the beaches in Australia and New
Zealand .
Why don't YOU spit Paan on the streets of Tokyo? Why don't YOU use
examination jockeys or buy fake certificates in Boston??? We are still
talking of the same YOU. YOU who can respect and conform to a foreign
system in other countries but cannot in your own. You who will throw
papers and cigarettes on the road the moment you touch Indian ground. If
you can be an involved and appreciative citizen in an alien country, why
cannot you be the same here in India?

Once in an interview, the famous Ex-municipal commissioner of Bombay,
Mr.. Tinaikar, had a point to make. 'Rich people's dogs are walked on
the streets to leave their affluent droppings all over the place,' he
said. 'And then the same people turn around to criticize and blame the
authorities for inefficiency and dirty pavements. What do they expect
the officers to do? Go down with a broom every time their dog feels the
pressure in his bowels?
In America every dog owner has to clean up after his pet has done the
job. Same in Japan.
Will the Indian citizen do that here?' He's right. We go to the polls to
choose a government and after that forfeit all responsibility.
We sit back wanting to be pampered and expect the governmen! t to do
everything for us whilst our contribution is totally negative. We expect
the government to clean up but we are not going to stop chucking garbage
all over the place nor are we going to stop to pick a up a stray piece
of paper and throw it in the bin. We expect the railways to provide
clean bathrooms but we are not going to learn the proper use of
bathrooms.
We want Indian Airlines and Air India to provide the best of food and
toiletries but we are not going to stop pilfering at the least
opportunity.
This applies even to the staff who is known not to pass on the service
to the public.

When it comes to burning social issues like those related to women,
dowry, girl child! and others, we make loud drawing room protestations
and continue to do the reverse at home. Our excuse? 'It's the whole
system which has to change, how will it matter if I alone forego my
sons' rights to a dowry.' So who's going to change the system?
What does a system consist of? Very conveniently for us it consists of
our neighbours, other households, other cities, other communities and
the government. But definitely not me and YOU. When it comes to us
actually making a positive contribution to the system we lock ourselves
along with our families into a safe cocoon and look into the distance at
countries far away and wait for a Mr.Clean to come along &a! mp; work
miracles for us with a majestic sweep of his hand or we leave the
country and run away.
Like lazy cowards hounded by our fears we run to America to bask in
their glory and praise their system. When New York becomes insecure we
run to England . When England experiences unemployment, we take the next
flight out to the Gulf. When the Gulf is war struck, we demand to be
rescued and brought home by the Indian government. Everybody is out to
abuse and rape the country. Nobody thinks of feeding the system. Our
conscience is mortgaged to money.

Dear Indians, The article is highly thought inductive, calls for a great
deal of introspection and pricks one's conscience too.... I am echoing
J. F. Kennedy's words to his fellow Americans to relate to Indians.....

'ASK WHAT WE CAN DO FOR INDIA AND DO WHAT HAS TO BE DONE TO MAKE INDIA
WHAT AMERICA AND OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES ARE TODAY'

Lets do what India needs from us.

Forward this mail to each Indian for a change .



Thank you,

Dr. Abdul Kalam

Anonymous said...

Dear All,

Well, Like you all I too have been cribbing about raising the status of our soldiers, airmen and Sailors of various categories and grades particularly with reference to the hue and cry that was raised about Shayak.

To my amazement I found that more than any one else, it the three Services which are culprit in this regard. I found the Fifth CPC tackling Armed Forces issue with some sense of understanding, perhaps because, I remember, the CPC had interacted quite a lot with Joint Pay Cell unlike this time. In the Fifth CPC the issue of Grades was dealt with and it was suggested that the three Services conduct proper Job Evaluations and carry out Job analysis of each Category. There has been constant efforts on the part of the Army and CPC to minimize the Categories and groups in the Armed Forces.

However, I as amazed and also amused that this function and task has been delegated by the Govt to the three Services ( AG/COP/AOP) vide item number 12 of the Govt of India, Min of Defence letter No MOD/IC/1027/32/AS(J)/6864/2006 dated 01 Sep 06. The AG/COP/AOP are the authorities for induction, review and rationalization of the trades of PBOR.

[http://cgda.nic.in/audit/order.html]

The basic process of up-gradation and then obtaining their equivalence to civilian trades and categories should have been done by them. I have seen the reports of the Pay Commissions of the US and UK Armies and found a marked similarities in the language used by our Babus and the language contained therein, particularly with respects to payment to the Armed Forces at least equivalent to the Civilians. Though that has not been implemented by our Bureaucracy in letter and spirit. On the contrary they understood it wrong and used the terminologies contained in UK / US Army Pay Commissions other way round to downgrade the Armed Forces. However the fact remains that the bench marks would continue to be civilian skills and qualifications. The proliferations of diplomas and skills in the Civil Society and their recognition undoubtedly has lifted the standard of the lives of many thousands. There is a voluminous UNESCO approach paper on the subject which HRD Ministry has implemented in India at Indian pace. The AG/COP/AOP need to look at this along with their Training Commands and move toward "Diplomisation of the kills of the Forces" to raise their service and post Service status. Adding skills and getting those recognized is a great Service to the Society and the Nation.

Can the sleeping AG/COP/AOP and Three training Comds of the Services kindly wake up and Commence the Job Analysis / Job Evaluations. But before that can the Skills be evaluated, categorized and diplomatised. Who says NDA degree is not a degree? who would say that a "Signal Havildar" can not have diploma in Communication. Who denies HAWS Hav instructor diplomas in "Hazard and Rescue Management" or a "Moutain Tour Operator and Manager", who would deny a Mess Havildar a diploma in "Catering and Event Mangement"...think ..think and one finds a solution. Can a Babu in Pay Commission say then that you command the mass of "semi skilled" serfs. Armed forces are full of vast and varied skills. First recognise those yourselves and then get the society recognise those. That is one way of the "Serf" Army marching into the modern India... Give that Mantra to your "skilled" soldiers.

If the Armed Forces who have been pioneer in innovation and management is being taught management by the Babus, the fault rests with our Generals, Marshals or Admirals.


Thanks
(One of U)

Anonymous said...

I am sure no commissioned officer worth his honour is going to be provoked with impunity.
The Chiefs have taken a stand. "Let's see how the delebrations go". Let's not jump the gun. Thats not to say that the provocation is not there - it's just that our governing machinery is not so cut and dried to justify an impulsive response from the Officer Corps.

bill said...

Ref PMs address in Cdr,s conf.
All Services Chiefs,particularly Army Chief,should have apprised the PM in clear terms about current state of unprecedented demoralisation in their respective Services & its immdt & long term implications/consequences on our national security.Anti Armed Forces stance/actions of Baboos has resulted in ALL Armed Forces officers & Men becoming staunch Anti buerocracy/civ administration which is now being openly expressed by them.It is a dangerous trend & a substntial threat to national security & integration.Possibility of "Foriegn Hand" at play(thru Moles/baboos) may also be there. The Chiefs must bring these issues to notice of the PM & the Parliament(for the people of the Nation to be apprised of the situation).

Anonymous said...

Dear IAS Brother above:

you said:

"It is a well known fact that the cadre reviews always bring down gradation of the rank or dilution of authority, and as early this fact is understood & accpepted by the officers would be in good spirit and health of every body."

Whereas it is true that every Cadre review has brought in dilution of Authority, it is also true that every Cadre Review for all All India and Class A services
resulted in increased numbers of higher posts, status, rank and pay / perks for majority of them. This is particularly true in case of IPS.

Why don't you ask what so many DIGs, IGs, Addls, Supts, Commissioners etc do? Sometimes they do not have five constables to command. So many IGs write only service manuals.For IAS, Instead of one Secretary there are six now in Finance Ministry. The job earlier being done by a director / JS is being done by a Secretary now. You have no problem with that and we have no problem either.

Why have you all problems with Fauzies? Let Lt Col command his 120men.

Let me tell you those 120 men are no longer the same and having same potential and output that was there ten years ago. Some of the LT Col will command ten Aircrafts worth billions of dollars, ten tanks worth millions or 14 missile units also worth millions .

Never ever show your stark ignorance and prejudices in a manner that the other here start doubting if you are really worth being an IAS.

B P SINGH said...

OVERKILL BY DEFENCE HQS
Probably the shout by Defence HQs is too loud and rough that it killed the whole issue.For further detail please read www.indiancpmf.blogspot.com

Anonymous said...

Indeed a commendable job done by Navdeep. I am sure some one sitting pretty in their AC rooms too taking cognisance of the fats which are out in the open now rather than sucking the blood of the hard hit soldier

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir

Am I to believe sir, that before Major Navdeep has now brought out these facts of 3rd cpc, none in the Three Arms of Services had ever thought of these issues for the past 25 years, particularly in the prior preparations done during the 4th 5th and present 6th cpc.

I am quite sure that much before every CPC, the Three Services,must be appointing dedicated Flag Officers to actually go into such issues.

I am a bit surprised and feel hard to gulp, that what Major Navdeep is now highlighting, went un-noticed all these 25 years by anyone in the three services.

Why eye openers now, I feel the eyes were never open earlier!

I do sincerely wish that things will get sorted out in a positive manner,and, in future cpc's there shall be no need for such eye- openers

Force1 said...

Anonymous @10.20 am has brought out a very pertinent point. I am presently giving an example of one of the topmost medical institutes of the country.The grading exams conducted for specialists are recognuzed at par with MD degrees (and equivalent)awarded by the UK and USA and the entire gulf countries, who in general do not recognise the MD degrees granted by other Universities.This essentially means that a graded Specialist in the Army is permitted to practice in these countries but an MD from AIIMS will have to clear their exams. There are a lot of foreign graduates who train here and have requested for the Grading certificate.However, the authorities that be, are reluctant to bestow a certificate for a course where they themselves have trained and found the candidates suitable to be graded. Needless to say, these Canddates do not find it difficult to clear other medical exams from foreign Universities!Granting a small certificate would go a long way in enhancing the image of the Army in foreign countries (Branding like IITs).Having seen acedemics from close quarters I can say for sure that other technical institutes also offer degrees of a high standard,and maybe permitting a few civilians to join these courses may remove the Ostrich like mentality of the Forces.

raju said...

i just want to comment on this note by mr s datta. well it has been proved in 1997 that this was a spurious note and the cabinet secretary issued a oddicial note that this is not to be taken recognised and now after so many years i see it resurfaced.

raju said...

what i want to say is that the there are enough facts to prove the status of lt cols but the main aim of the IAS is to downgrade you there fore all this english. dont for a second think that they dont know the real equation, the Service Chiefs did a big mistake when they agreed to implementing the 6 CPC on the advise of the PM and his assurance that the committee of ministers will solve all issues . and now what is happening again we are running after the joint secrateries . my view is that the Service chiefs are not there as indusuals they are there as the head of the Service and they shd have said you want to dismiss us go ahead but the 6 CPC in present stage is not accepted. surely the political class does not have the guts to dismiss all three and if they did then too we are taught service before self so if dismissed so what at least the prestige of the Services would have been intact. and finally i want say that we are the worst Armed forces why are we taking all this lying down , if we cannot fight for our own honor then surely we cant fight for anyone elses honor.

Ajith said...

"At times of crises, how do we expect lieutenant colonels to lead smooth joint operations with once subordinate civilian authorities who have suddenly been elevated in the order of precedence? This is a disaster in the making and the foreboding in the rank and file of the forces must not be underestimated. This is particularly important because of the immense dissatisfaction caused by the previous two pay commissions as well, the most public manifestation being the ugly protests by sections of the air force last time around..."

This is an extract of the 'Times of India' article. Read the full story here.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Editorial/LEADER_ARTICLE_Give_Them_Their_Due/articleshow/3674065.cms

pawan said...

Dear BP,
I do not know your credentials, but you speak out of sentiments rather than rationale. But for a moment let me except your view to be from a responsible and unbiased expert, then your statement that Defence should be equated with CPOs is not only false but totally absurd because then as per 5th CPC Defence Officers upto the rank of Maj Gen equivalent were NOT EQUAL but LOWER in status when compared with CPOs if you consider date of assuming substatantive ranks and Intersay Seniority rule. If you are incapable of knowing this fact then the assumption made by me above is proved wrong. Please feel free to ask me or explain my statement in that case. Days are not far when on corruption and selflessness scale we will be worse than IAS, IPS, Income Tax etc if people like you have such shameful thoughts.

pawan said...

Dear BP,
I do not know your credentials, but you speak out of sentiments rather than rationale. But for a moment let me except your view to be from a responsible and unbiased expert, then your statement that Defence should be equated with CPOs is not only false but totally absurd because then as per 5th CPC Defence Officers upto the rank of Maj Gen equivalent were NOT EQUAL but LOWER in status when compared with CPOs if you consider date of assuming substatantive ranks and Intersay Seniority rule. If you are incapable of knowing this fact then the assumption made by me above is proved wrong. Please feel free to ask me or explain my statement in that case. Days are not far when on corruption and selflessness scale we will be worse than IAS, IPS, Income Tax etc if people like you have such shameful thoughts.

banu said...

IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY:-

The revision of pay for the Government servants was supposed to bring cheers on their faces. But unwittingly the report of the Sixth Central Pay Commission has created history of a different kind. It seems to have antagonised the Indian Defence Forces so much that the Army has come to a standoff with the Government over the issue of pay. This is a dangerous precedence set by these forces and has exposed nothing the defence forces as undisciplined and untrustworthy. What they have done is but disobedience of orders of the superior authority, in this case the Central Government.

In the Army Act, disobedience is a serious offence which calls for strict punitive measures. One can easily imagine the damage such attitude can cause, especially when it comes from the top brass of our defence forces. I am forced to draw comparisons with the Pakistan Army and our Army fares better only to the extent that it hasn’t overthrown the Government, yet.

Indian Defence forces are smartly using the ubiquitous media to articulate their perceived dissatisfaction with the pay package offered and the media is playing to their tune. In fact the media cannot be blamed because it will be politically incorrect to take a stand against the Defence forces given the emotional quotient associated with the issue. But why do the media not challenge the retired service officers who are acting as the mouthpiece of the forces, with the stark reality of rampant corruption in the Army? Why, the Tehelka expose′ is not raked up. Why various other high profile cases of corruption and fake killings are not talked about? It is surprising that with such a tainted past the forces are showing the audacity to openly defy the Government.

The mouthpieces have been harping on the issue of fighting militancy in Kashmir and the North-East. True, perhaps they cannot talk of a war since there has not been any after 1971. And the possibility of one taking place also is negligible. And here is the Army demanding fat pay packages where as generations of their officers and soldiers will retire without seeing a war. On the other hand there are other Armed Forces like the BSF which has been fighting insurgency in Kashmir and North-East since the days it started. The sacrifices made by the BSF are no less than the Army. Its achievements are no lesser either. Stagnation in BSF is worse than in the Army, but the BSF has never complained about performing duties it is not originally raised for like the Army always bemoans about performing other roles at every available opportunity. Not only that, the BSF is always willing to take additional responsibilities like security during elections etc. The fact that BSF will actively participate in a hot war is never highlighted by any Army officer in public. This era is of multitasking. All organisations in the interest of the Nation must perform duties in times of emergencies which they might not be mandated for when they were raised.

At the Border too the BSF is on duty round the clock. When the Army sits cosy at a peace station a BSF jawan keeps vigil at the Border for more than 18 hours in a day 375 days in a year. Barring Siachin, BSF is deployed at equally inhospitable terrains. The misconception that the Army guards our Borders must be cleared. The media must make efforts to clear their obfuscated vision and enlighten the people. Yet there is a glaring and huge disparity in the pay of a BSF jawan and an Army Jawan even when they are deployed shoulder to shoulder. And then there are no film stars visiting BSF posts either.
2

No media coverage at all. Besides, the problem of family separation in BSF is perhaps biggest amongst all uniformed services. The wards of BSF personnel seldom do well in studies and in life. Compare this to the Miss India etc who are so often Army officers’ daughters. The Army officers own a house in almost all expensive localities in Delhi and other metros. Number of BSF or other paramilitary service officers with this kind of privilege is negligible. The Army runs good schools at all place where they get deployed, a facility, BSF can only dream of. They are showered with so many concessions, discounts, post retirement benefits etc but similar privileges are non existent in the life of BSF person. Compare the residential societies raised by the Army with those raised by the paramilitary services and one can easily judge that they have been only making merry. Even the gallantry medals earned by the paramilitary forces are accorded a lower status than those earned by the Army. This rampant discrimination has been going on for years but the BSF has never had any instance of collective disobedience or desertions like the one seen in the Army in the past. Yet they are pleading for more like spoilt children.

In Kashmir and North-East the role of the Army has always been under a shadow of human rights abuse. The have been killing innocent people and branding them as terrorists by planting weapons on them. How can the media forget such incidents so easily? Such incidents are much more in number and only a few high profile ones were reported in the National media. BSF on the contrary has a much better reputation in anti-insurgency operations.

There is a lot of hue and cry about the status of a Lt Col too. People must understand what Lt Cols in the Army do. They either officiate as Commanding Officers in the absence of the Colonel or perform duties of staff officers in the headquarters and surprisingly also command companies, a sub-unit of a battalion, a task which has to be performed by a Major/Captain. In BSF the 2IC (Lt Col) does similar duties but the rank has not been degraded like in the Army. The 2 IC does not perform the duties of a company commander. Wonder how they can equate a company commander with a director or a 2IC of BSF. If a Lt Col is upgraded to pay band 4, will the BSF 2IC also be extended the same courtesy he will have to resort to indiscipline to get that status.

Indian defence forces are a reflection of our secular status. There are numerous personnel from minority communities serving in these forces. They have been laying their lives for this country and when religious fanatics indulged in mob fury killing thousands of minority community people including women and children, no Chief serving or retired raised his voice to pressurise the Government to act tough lest the harmonious relations amongst all religions in the forces would be affected adversely. Those were the times when they should have been a little assertive. But when they raised their voice, they did it for a few pennies more. So the motivation factor is not patriotism but money and only money. The big question then is that whether the Nation is safe in the hands of a greedy Army ready to hold to ransom its own Government or there should be disciplinary proceedings initiated against the Generals to restore sanity and supremacy of the Government?

Anonymous said...

The CPMFs are a subordinate force. Their officers are not even organised as a group A service. Why are they harping on equality? What are they equal to? Youre just tools in the civil services hands. To be discarded after your utility is at an end.

So you should stop carping. This issue is not about the CPMFs. We dont care what you do or you dont.

Stay out of all this, sonnyboys. This isnt your fight. This isnt between the army and you.

This fight is for the grown ups. So stay out. Or youll get hurt.

Anonymous said...

Dear Major Sir,
The blog is interesting to read.
Hats off to u. But how long we will reading the blog ? Pl discuss something about PBOR pay & pension.
Can we get the revised pension atleast by Jan 2009 ?.

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,

I laud your motive and your request to the Secy, Expenditure (formerly Secretary to the 6 CPC).

But most IAS officers are brought up on a diet of notes put up by clerks, Section Officers and commented up the line till the file reaches their table. By then it needs both patience and intelligence to sift through what has been recorded. Secys' do not have the former and I will refrain from commenting on the latter.

But here the Secy Expenditure was involved in the discussions, recording the minutes and finally publishing the Report of the 6 CPC before she was appointed to her present post.

Therefore she did not need to check through the notes, sift the chalk from the cheese. But she unfortunately, either lacked the memory to recall what was discussed, or forgot that she could read the Report. In the final analysis, it does not appear unreasonable conclude that she lacked the moral courage to inform the Committee of Secretaries that they were exceeding their brief.

The MoD in the form of the Def Secy, being privy to the discussions in the CoS, must have decided that he needed to show that he indeed was powerful and put the Armed Forces on a lower rung that was envisaged by the 6 CPC.

So we have what we have - fretting, fuming and blogs will not redress the wrong.

Perhaps filing a case would be the answer as the GoM is busier pacifying CM of TN or propping up mutual funds or foolish greedy investments. Maj Dhanapalan won after some years.

Rohit said...

For all serving pers

There is no denying that all of us need to thank Navdeep for the yeoman service which he has been doing almost singlehandedly. God knows the effort and toil which goes into such indepth analysis.

I wonder if we can be of some assistance, wherever we are. However the fear of (don't know what) keeps us in the present anonymous mode.

I am sure we are doing no wrong in asking for a reasonable pay after putting in 24 years in service of the nation.

However, surprisingly, a large number of young officers, continue to stay in a state of denial about what is happening here.

Believe me, you, you do deserve the salary being asked for you. This I state with conviction of one who has partook in civil exams and rest assured, the average guy in govt department (90% go to the next rank) is no patch on the normal guy amongst you (only 30 % go to the next rank). Don't believe anyone who tells you otherwise.

I find a large no of thanks and Hats offs for Navdeep. Stay with him and stay educated about the things which are happening around you.

Spend money, speak to legal luminaries around you, read, discuss. Please for God's sake, don't listen to the hypocrite senior who tells you that you did not join service for the money. Of course you didn't and he needn't tell you that, but the money is important for your family, children education etc.And most importantly, the civilian whom you shall be dealing with in the course of your service will respect you for pay band and your grade pay in that.

Lastly, an aspect which cannot be understood by the civilians- if this anomaly is not resolved in favour of the Lt Cols/ eq, there shall be grave internal crisis in the armed forces resultant of dirty cut-throat rivalry which shall develop amongst officers and which shall take down the spirit of camaradarie and regimentation, only because the stakes are getting to be so high.
Remember only 30% to the next rank.

Don't say later that you were not warned.

deepak said...

dear banu..November 5, 2008 7:01 PM

please read what one of ur brothers has said.. its called maturity of thought.. LEARN SOMETHING
-----------------------------------
Suri said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 19:50

Dear Binu,
I accept your loyalties towards your service but next best thing when one is not sure is to keep quiet. Incidentally, my father is a retired CRPF officer and brother a serving Military officer (now PB-3, may join the gang of PB-4, if all goes well). Large number of good frieds of mine are in CRPF/BSF; so I can’t afford to cross their way. I said so in order to avoid the label of being anti-CRPF and such like other labels. I have highest regards for CPOs as well as our Defence Forces (for obvious reasons). Notwithstanding personal reasons, I feel a daughter (CPOs) can never be equated with the Mother (Defence Forces). Clear cut tasks of both, Military and CPOs, are laid out and apparently there is no debate on that. As persons from uniformed service, you should understand one thing that pitting CPOs against Defence Forces was a ploy by our BABOOZs community in order to dilute the stand taken by Defence Forces. In fact it is time that we all must realise the bigger game plan of IAS lobby. They are following the policy of “Divide and Rule” which they got in legacy from Britishers. You would recall that it is due to this policy CPOs don’t even have a cadre to call their OWN and hence are subjugated to IPS lobby (as respective DGs) despite having many competent CPO officers having faded to obliviun. Isn’t it the right time to demand a cadre for yourself so that you could have a chief to call as your own. I feel rather than falling prey to the pettty politics of Bureaucrates and ending up spoiling relations with Defence Forces, CPOs must concentrate on improving the internal management. Remember comparing Daughter/Daughter-in-law with Mother/Mother-in-law will end up lose-lose situation for CPOs. Analyse with a quiet mind.
Thanx

insider said...

anonymous 7.01pm, the unguided bsf spokesperson

May God help u to also understand others problems. Just because a clerical mistake u r in pb4.

Remain united with ur brother army officers. They are truly yours and they in future will only protect u from enemy fires or pull u back when u bleed with enemy bullets.

These baboos can only manipulate both of us sitting in airconditioned rooms.

2morrow if lt cols are not moved to pb4 due to some reasons. u would certainly be reverted back to pb3 to maintain parity. So pray for lt cols to move to pb4.

Such thing even a child understands. I dont expect u to be not in senses when the bar is not even open. u r definately poisioned by an ISI agent.

Jaihind

Anonymous said...

My dear readers, i have been watching the posts on this blog for quite some time. i feel maj navdeep is dong more harm than any good to our community by setimentally blackmailing all of us and provocating the IAS in particular and civilian officers in general by providing only one sided information rosy and suiting to us.
I checkedup and found that this site is owned by him and he is a legal expert working with TA. u all know legal persons are with no one except with their profession and money.
So, he is doing for his prosperity and certainly not for us so that he could get cases of service personnel.
Dear friends i pray to all of u that please donot get misguided and blackmailed sentimentally on the issue which really does not concern much and goi is also not in a mood to budge.
we should be happy that we have control over so many organisations which really should be belonging to civilians. pl imagine in case goi decides to demilitarise the organisations like DRDO, BRO, MES DGQA etc how much pressure would be generated on units and all the plum posts would be handed over to civilians which we have been right royally enjoynig them apart from posting to peace stations almost 90% of our carrer and enjoying all the facilities of an Armed forces as if we we are posted to field areas whereas we are acutally working like civilians but the pay and perks of a service personnel. so lets try to grab more number of civilian organisations under our control in the name of our discipline and dedication to the nation.
may God bless all of us.

Anonymous said...

Dear Friends,

I think Mr BP Singh does not deserve any reply as his mind is totally shut. Do not reply to his illogical arguments..

Secondly call CPOs as CPOs and not PMF which they never will be. It is a new trm coined by these guys and they have cheeks to call themselves military.... call they may but they want to be called so withour lending their.....??

Anonymous said...

Dear Major

(a) There is no denying the fact that the army life is very tough as compared to civilian life. Based on this logic army people shall be paid more. There is no doubt in minds of civilian officers in this regard. It can be easily seen that in organizations where both civilian and army officers are working shoulder to shoulder, an army officer is drawing substantially higher pay vis a vis his civilian counterpart. In harder areas more benefits are given to army based on the severity of the area. So, sufficient financial edge has been given to the army. In addition to this, there are innumerable intangible benefits given to the Army. To be more precise if the army is paid less, then it only at PBOR level and not at Officers level. The case would have gained public support if the present fight would have been for PBOR’s rather than Lt Cols.

(b) Based on reports of past pay commission, the sixth pay commission has correctly established the equivalency between armed forces and their civilian counterparts. As per Supreme Court, the Pay Commission is the right and the only authority to establish the equivalency. So your claim would not stand in the court of law. Prior to sixth pay commission, army officers were misusing the extra pay given to them in the form of rank pay and disturbance allowances etc, by forcing the senior civilian officers to work under junior army officers. A fight was always going on against this subordination. This was destroying the country from inside like termite destroys the wood. But successive pay commissions have not been able to sort out this issue. The sixth pay commission has removed all these anomalies in a single shot by introducing the concept of grade pay. It reminds me a old proverb “100 sunar ki 1 lohar ki”. Also if some body says that it is only the army who is running the country, then he is grossly mistaken. We should correct our thinking from the situation in Pakistani. i.e a country as old as India.

(c) From last two months you and your fellow beings have put lots of documentary evidences on this blog to put forth your claim. I have a great respect for you, because no other officer can devote so much time as you have devoted. But unfortunately u have not been able to put forth the truth. You has always highlighted only those documents (and that too in a shape) which suits you and your fellow beings. To be more precise you have not been able to put forth the things as per latest development in other departments. This has resulted in more damage to army persons than help to them. The documents and links put up by you and other army officers has become a ready made material available to civilian officers. The civilian officers, who has joined the Govt service after passing through the rigorous competitive exams, are intelligent enough to interpreter these documents in the right perspective. The contents on this blog are disclosing all your strategies, prior to their conception. I think we the civilian officers have been benefited more from this blog rather than the army officers.

(d) In the past it was the IAS lobby which has always helped the army in interoperating various rules position sympathetically in favor of army. But let me tell you, after reading derogatory remarks from certain officers on this site that advantage will no more be with u. More u will dig the issue, more the loser u will be. Being a civilian officer, more u will dig these issues; our grievances would be more easily resolved. So on one side I thank u for all the issues put forward by u, and on the other side I would request u to continue this fight till it reaches a conclusive end once for all.

(e) Lots of officers at Lt Col are challenging the Govt by threatening to resignation. But the fact is that in a country of more than 120 Crores there is no dearth of unemployed intelligent youth to take the vacant seats. A small training capsule to few deserving people would be sufficient to make them work at least with the efficiency with which the present officers are working with. More over with the present global crisis job scenario out side is nor more secure and charming. We are lucky enough that pay commission has been recommended prior to this global meltdown.

(f) At the end I acknowledge with thanks that it is only because of this fight that directors have been put in PB4. You try for Lt Cols and I am sure that Jt Dirs would be put in PB4 along with Lt Cols. And so on till no body will be in PB1 to PB3.

(g) The above comments are not my personal comments. These comments are of public at large including few army officers. Though the truth is always bitter, but I hope u will take these comments in right prospective.

With best wishes
Jai Shri Krishna

Anonymous said...

Ano@November 5, 2008 9:59 PM

Atleast exhibit a little bit of IQ in your putrefied writing and put your head to some average use. You are not an IAS as they have a scheming mind and yours is foolish. This website is for soldiers and not sissies like you who try to hide their identity. Go to hell and be damned. Dont be seen here again.
Jai Hind

Anonymous said...

Dear Honorable GoM on anomalies of Armed forces Pay,

The Bureaucracy is all set to grind the Armed Forces of the Country to dust as is evident from their treatment of MSP. The treatment of MSP as dispensed by the Pay commission is as follows.

page 14, para1.2.21

Performance of duties beyond the normal call should, in the revised Scheme of things, result in higher performance related incentive. The specific problems faced by defence forces personnel on account of rigours of military life are, however, proposed to be compensated by an additional element of pay termed Military Service Pay (MSP).

page 51, para 2.2.22 (vii)

An employee in higher grade pay will be senior to an employee in lower grade pay. In case of employee drawing the same grade pay, priority should be governed by total emoluments drawn, including NPA in the case of doctors and MSP in case of defense personnel.

page 52 para 2.3.13

Military service pay shall count as pay for all purposes except for computing the annual increments. However the status of the Defense Forces officers will be determined by the grade pay attached to their post as in the case with civilians.

page 76 para 2.3.11

Once the officer switches over to the CPMFs, MSP.........will be counted for fixation of pay....


What does the above mean:

MSP is pay for all purposes except for calculating increments. This is wrong stipulation as on promotion to Maj gen MSP becomes part of pay and thereafter is part of being taken into account for calculating future increment. If it is treated so for Maj gens why not for people below them. Similarly it was stipulated by the Pay Commission that once the officer switches over to CPMFs, his MSP will be taken into account for fixation of his pay. It means subsequent to that Rs 6000 of his erstwhile MSP becomes eligible for all things including for calculation of annual increment. Why then this treatment to Army officers up to Brigs that their MSP is Chui Mui (untouchable) for calculation annual increment.

Second part that emerges is that, MSP is pay for all purposes including rates of DA, HRA< Transfer Grants, travel intilement and for the purposes of determination of seniority within the same grade.

The definition which The MoD gazette has provided is misleading and does not cover all the above elements of MSP as provided for by the Pay Commission.

MSP is eligible for calculation of annual increments in all other cases but for officers up to Brigadiers it is untouchable. That is simply application of double standards on one element of pay within the same organization and under the same govt.

Kindly set it Right. MSP should be made part of pay for all purposes including for calculation of annual increment as in the case of Maj Gen and above.

@Maj Navdeep...may include thas as part of new anomalies.

In all cases the MSP becomes part of Pay and hence entiled for calculation of increments. Why then not for ranks upto Brigadiers...

Anonymous said...

@ annony 1132 pm 05 nov

Well said but u need to bring little refinement in u. It is not necessory to always abuse any individual to make him understand his mistake.

officers moving to sister organisation are always side tracked from main stream. Had to work hard to undrstand the basics of new organisation, loose chances of further promotion etc. There appears to be a general resentment in these officers. On the contrary both civilian and armed forces officers feel otherwise. Na ghar ke rahe na ghat ke. bad luck.

Anonymous said...

@My dear respected civilian Officer as Ano at 11.17 above

If Armed Forces Officers have an ounce or even a peanut size self respect left in them, every son of the mother must accept your challanges....

It is better to be raised to the dust as many threaten rather than be IAS slaves... Armed Forces are Forces of this Country which may or may not include IAS... But your sustained efforts of enslaving the Armed Forces are exposed and well known...

I for refuse to be a slave in this free country for two "Roties" which you are threatening to take away..

It is better to die hungry as self respect human rather than die as rich IAS slaves...

Keep your ill meaning and badly worded counsel to yourself...

Anonymous said...

Honorable Ex Defence Minister and now the Foreign Minister has amply outlined biggest threats to India which all have Military ramifications..he has not hesitaed to define the "C" word as China...

Our Honorable PM is deeply worried about the futuristic reasons of war..probably the water (may be Tibet) when China will divert the water of Tsang Po (Brahmaputra) to main land China to fulfil its vast water requirements.

Obama wants to trade Kashmir for Osama who is confirmed to be in Pakistani safe house.Obama made a promise and why should he not trade Kashmir..it is not his Country...Pakies will give Osama to Obama for Kashmir..

At this juncture, the unfaithful IAS Mir Qasims and Jaychands are busy destroying what ever remains of ill budgeted and ill paid enslaved Armed Forces .. they have not left any trick unused so far.. they are busy playing someones game.. they have done that earlier too..

Armed Forces generation of Brigs, Cols, Lt Cols, Maj and above, equivalants are all Kashmir, Assam, Srilanka and Kargil products.. They have seen the worst of time in their lives..they have suffred quite enough and met national commitments..

Here comes a points writing pontificating Babu, threatens all the Armed Forces guys and promises to raise them to dust..

God save this country and these self loving Babus...they are only fit to be slapped by the Politicians..that is going to happen in a big way the more democracy travels down from notings to orders in farts..IAS will pay back for the signatures of Ministers on dotted lines..they will be used as peons by the clever politicians as cleverness is not only the preserve of this so called Cometetive Exams Babu..

Armed Forces Guys, Stand up like the true warriors..you all and do voice your rightful and legal grievances.. Have Faith on your leadership and never allow them to feel alone or weak...


Transperency, truthfulnes, honesty and just tratment is what the Armed Forces are asking for ..Let them know your arguments, stategy and facts..truh and justice has No stategy and decietfulness... Jusice is always with waht you are doing... remember that.. Have faith in yourselves..

Jai Hind...

Anonymous said...

Dear Major Navdeep,

My sources inform me that the GoM has referred the pay anomalies to the Expenditure Secretary for advice.

Expenditure Secretary, it appears, has in turn advised the GoM that a separate sub-pay band (to be called 3a) may be created to accommodate the Lt Cols in a scale slightly above the minimum of Pay band 3 but below upper limit of Payband 4.

Pay equivalence of Lt Gen and DGP has not been considered.

Look at the systematic devaluation of a Pay Commission headed by a former Justice of the Supreme Court! Soon the report notified in the Gazette of India may as well be discarded!!

And, finally that Adm Sureesh Mehta has declined to accept both and offered to resign over the issues if it is not correctly and quickly resolved. Would Navy Day be the occasion? After all Gen Vij announced the AVSC I on Army Day!!

Bash on Regardless

Jai Hind

Anonymous said...

Dear Anony Jai Sri Krishna, Bureaucrat

Supreme Court ruled that the Pay Commission is supreme to decide equivalence? When? But the Report of the 6 CPC has been overturned by the CoS? Is that a contempt of Court? Or is there another ruling that CoS has more authority than the Pay Commission?

There may be 120 crore youth who can fill up the posts of Lt Cols, but why are they not doing so? Do you know as per Times of India on 4th October, there are approx 12000 vacancies for officers in the Army, 1500 in the Navy and 2000 in the Air Force? Where are those 120 crores? Are you hiding them?

Like it has taken you all that coaching at some illegal institute (UPSC does not recognise any IAS coaching institutes) and some years (and political kowtowing and bags of money??) to get where you are, it takes experience but not the bags of money to become a Lt Col.

It takes courage to fight people who do not wear uniforms. You obviously do not have that courage or you too would have joined the Armed Force to serve the nation.

Come on, public at large (sic)is not having your opinion and those Army officers must be creatures of your imagination.

Jai Jawan Jai Hind

Anonymous said...

@5 nov 9.59 appears to be a passimistic but practical approach.

It appears IAS is no longer our enemy, rather it is civilians of mixed organisations who have been opposing our moves.

why our generals do not move aproposal where in the officers in mixed organisations are sent on permanent basis and paid at par to them.

officers in active service are paid differently and there is no heart burn. i feel this is better solution rather than trying on the present lines and ultimately loosing everything apart from antagonising IAS.

Indian army officer? The group B officer. said...

@annoy at 05 nov 11.17

what ever you have written reminds me only of one thing is that MIGHT IS RIGHT today netas and baboos are powerfull position so that is why you are writing like the way you have written about an army officer. and also you peoples are rest assured that the netas and baboos have allowed only those offices to rise who have no guts.
But beware of the day when all these events of today will lead to the situation of anarchy where enemy will have upper hand i would like see you that day.it has become really frustrating.

Anonymous said...

Jai Shri Krishna as he writes is not an IAS but some stupid CSO of AFHCS. For being last in the competition, he boast of being a Civilian officer.

Joint Director in PB-4 is his new dream. For being in the Services HQ or so called Joint Organization, he takes all benefits of Services and collects bag full of items from CSD for his entire Muhalla in Meerut or Palval in Haryana. He comes to the office at 11 O Clock, shouts slogans at 1300 hours and boards the returning train at 1500. He has no idea whatsoever about service conditions but deals and makes stupid notings on files dealing with service affairs. He would not mind Court Marshalling every uniformed man with every single drop of the hat.

Jai Sri Krishna, there are thousands like you there in the Service HQ who have spoilt the entire atmosphere and brought in corruption and indiscipline. That is why there is a proposal to remove you all from that HQ and bring in Services Officers through parallel induction of SS Officers.


Luhar and Sunar every thing will be made out of you if the officers working with you know a little CCS Rules and make you earn your bread a little seriously. CSOs like you are the most frustrated lots and have effected the good service organization.

Jai Shri Krishna Ji do not pose well wisher here...As it is the Services have enough of it..

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep, i have given certain comments earlier which were removed as soon as posted, from this blog. This is the problem with Generals that they want to hear music to ears and nothing else. Please remember that by feeding wrong info to officers, you are doing biggest harm to Army only. The order of precedence you have put has to be seen in perspective. In 1935 the minimum service specified for Lt Col selection grade was 25 years and at that age he was equated with 18 years class I service officers of GOI. The Col scale was given in 30 years. lease Remember that problem is that army has downgraded itself at middle level by 3 ranks and asked more Lt Col as a deceit route to get scale 10 years ahead than was done 70 years ago, the equivalency to which time is asked now. This has not happened in any other service. The qualification difference in Class I and fact that they are pre-trained and comes through difficult selection process cannot be ignored. Even at the time of 1937 precedence the 7 years seniority edge was granted to civil services as is indicated in your own data. Survey of India and Indian medical service which were the only two services that had both Military and civil officers on regular basis had given an edge of 6 years to Class I civil Service. Above all you join a service by choice and cannot DRASTICALLY change rules of pay to the advantage of any one service. May we be slightly truthful and put matters in correct perspective-Thanks

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir,
First of all the anomaly was created not by the 6pc but by the committee of secretaries who all took their ball and ran except the Defence secretary.Another pertinent point is regarding the civil authority which surprisingly is fast fading.
The armed forces are supposed to serve under the elected representatives of the people and not the civil beauracracy.
The justification is as under-
1.The political boss is elected by the people and subject to change every 5 years depending on the will of the people.
2. The civil bearacracy and the Military are both selected through various exams and are career officers who will retire on reaching superannuation-so they run parallel.So ,there is no reason why one should serve under the other.
3.However, if a choice requires to be made ,it should be the army as it is secular,representative of the entire country and extremely disciplined,rather than an organisation which is corrupt,lazy,partial and not representative of the people.Arent they generally the people who forsake a tougher life for an easier lfe which includes slippers,a pot belly and pan chewing disgruntled individual(stress on the word individual),regards

Rohit said...

@Anonymous at 9.59 PM / 05 Nov.

I can bet my bottom rupee that you are not a army officer but a civilian offr of one of the mixed orgs. Most particularly IDSE.

You are as obvious as a skunk.

Anonymous said...

Dear GoM.

and
Dear Madame Shushma Nath, IAS, Secretary Expenditure, Ministry of Finance, Former Member Secretary, the 6th CPC,


I believe the file of GoM on Armed Forces Pay Anomalies is lying with you. The GoM have wisely and rightly done so. If they have not done so they should do it. Any one who starts the problem must end it. There is a saying in Punjabi "Jo Bole wo Buwa Khole" (the one who replies, then will open the door). Since the all the problems have emanated from your end, You are the best person to solve those now.

Madame, the entire problem has emanated by you not having taken the rank pay into account while preparing the Table given on page 73. Rank pay has been part of basic pay componant since 4th CPC and there is no point eliminating that in 2008 and thereby correct History by degrading eaxch and every rank one step down.

Madame, let us put that aside if it is Controversial. Then Correct the history by going back to the equations of the third CPC. Let that be the bench mark if Rank Pay has become so problematic.

Madame, If you feel Armed Forces made hay after 4th CPC due to Rank pay componant and the injustice needs to be put in order, then please go back and put the things as they were in 1952, just after we gained Independence as per ranks of Precedence in 1952 which was amanded then.

Madame, lots of Cadres including IAS, IPS and other services have made lots of hay under the Sunshine of their own influences and powers, Cadre reviews, and proximity to power. Lots of imbalance have occurred and it is not my case at all to correct history every where and at every step. But why single out rank pay which originated by the desire of Pay Commssions not agreeing to Service proposals. This time around you have not been magnemoious even to consider Service Proposals.

Madame, hence I submit, why have you chosen only the dumb and deaf Armed Forces to be the target for punishment. They have crated least opportunities and avenues under the Sun Shine of Independence. If at all, there has been any progress for them, it was snatched by the greedy competing Bureaucracies right from CCS ti IPS and Upwards.

Madame, please be fare and do not get stuck with IAS phobia of obtaining six years seniority at each and every Armed Forces rank. That ICS phobia earlier needed redressal as Army and ICS worked together upto district levels of administration to maintain "Colony". It has no meaning now as Army has only MoD IAS to interact with. So the young Army lad bossing over an aged Civil Servant is no longer the real issue any where as it used to be. It has no longer any socio-psychological ramifications needing assidious balance. Armed forces have emerged as the real Armed Forces of the Country no longer officered by the Gora sahib needed to be despised by Kalu Ram, ICS. Do not play Colonial games madame.

Madame, I am well aware, and it is evident how IAS wants to be senior to Lt Col at least by six years at director level. Agreed but his desire has gone a little beyond as he wants to stand above an old Colonel and even older Brigadier of 30 years of Service. Some one rightly observed that IAS have become too Greedy..to attain balance.

Madame, it is high Time, IAS pays respect to Uniformed men older than them in age and Service and not lesser in status, historically or otherwise. The situation now is reverse. The Ganges has started flowing back to Goumukh. Request restore balance as what Consideration Kalu Ram, ICS, needed earlier now is the requirement of Sena Naik, General, of your country.

Madame, balance is the name of game I suppose. Director gets two increments at 13 years of service so he becomes two years senior. His one years training is Service, so he is three years senior. Give him an advantage of one more year. Put Lt Col of 14 years if not 13 years in PB-4. So director remains senior to Lt Cols as per same age profiles. That would bring Director to somewhat Col level. just for three years.

However, give this advantage back to Armed Forces at Brig and Maj Gen level. Grant Maj Gen NFSG to selected officers at 22 years service, which IAS is getting at 16years. Balance must be overall and not only at Director level.


Regarding MSP, if it becomes part of Pay at Maj Gen level for all purpose including future increments, why deny the same privilege to lesser folks who actually deserve it more.MSP becomes part of Basic Pay fixation on induction into CPMF and thereby entiled to every thing but is nothing while in fauzi service. That is not logical and justifiable.

You have been granted a historical opportunity by the GoM. I am sanguine an IAS of your stature will make best use of it to restore confidence in IAS and bring in inter services amity. A human being comes to live to contribute and not for destruction.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous 7:10am,
main culprit is justice sri krishna.FOR giving a report ,without any logic ,reason ,justification , a irrational report.
pay commission has kept LT.COL, COL, BRIG .IN PB3 . COS HAS kept COL ,BRIG in PB4.
GOVERNAMENT has right to accept or reject or modify recommendations made by pay commission .NO court can give directions on this matter.

Anonymous said...

Why nobody is discussiong indifferent role played RM in all this issue. RM should have stood by the Armed forces demand and taken a strong stance on case as briefed by chiefs. He could easily get all this issue resolved if he wanted to.

Harry said...

@ All Non Services Bloggers

If U all feel forces are doing it for just money and nothing else, well... I have a simple solution, just revert back all non services' civilian officers who were drawing equal or less pay to Lt Cols as per 5th PC to PB3, then there is NO issue left. Yes, Grade Pay from Capt to Brig still needs to be stepped up, but that is hardly gonna cost much to the exchequer. Revert DGPs from HAG+ to HAG and their status equation gets solved vis a vis Lt Gens. But still, haul up Babooze responsible for these wilfull "BLUNDERS", how about starting with the BIGGEST BABU going by the name of Shri KM Chandershekher, who headed CoS? As also Smt sushma Nath, who proved to be "flagrant culprit" despite being member secy of SPC in first place. And yes don't forget to undo the damage done by babooz to grab 4 increments on the sly whereas the so called edge (for working at "small" places in early part of career......come on Sri Krishna saab, cudn't u think of any other plausible reason.. this one makes for pathetic argument!) was in the form of 2 increments only (and that too NOT for life, as is the case now!). And yes 70% pension weitage for jawans is irrefutable demand!

And honorable RM Saab, hopefully, will "atleast" ensure that beauracratic deceit played by MoD babooz by subverting Rank pay and MSP definitions to the disadvantage of Forces, be rectified forthwith!!

Anonymous said...

Ladies and gentlemen,

Please take this good news is good spirit.

Ms Sushama Nath has decided to join the Armed Forces as a Lt Col and is appointed Chief of Oncology at the R & R Hospital in PB-3 by DGAFMS.

She will henceforth remove the cancer of pay commission anomalies in the Armed Forces. She will also induct people like Shri Jai Krishan to be her surgical assistant. He will bring the 120 crore youth with him and you and I can go home on 50% commutation, 10 lakhs gratuity and 8 lakhs leave encashment and let Ms Nath and the IAS live happily ever after.

She will also decide that we need not eliminate the LeT or the JeM because it is a waste buying bullets and artillery rounds - like Diwali crackers - they make noise, do damage to the environment.

Jai Hind. Jai Nath

Naren said...

Dear Navdeep,
1st of all hats off to U!!!!!!!
As brought out by you,The 6th CPC recommendations are based on wrong facts,hence does it not make their recommendations legally void abinitio? And hence liable to be set aside as they patently wrong on record?
All this because the services did not have any member representing their case.
If a Writ is filed in the HC or Supreme court this injustice could be set aside as it is a glaring case of negligence on the part of all concerned members of the 6CPC.
Apparently they have not applied their mind and caused such blunders which are fraught with the gravest consequences to our Nation.We cannot afford to demoralise our armed forces any further.
Since U are a competent lawyer,having done your home-work meticulously, I sincerely request your help in filing a writ in the SC.I am a retired Naval officer,and willing to bear the expenses.Let the case be filed as a PIL on behalf of retired officers,we can mobilise as many numbers as required.
regrds and best wishes
Cdr(Retd) N S Chauhan

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 2:43 reminds me - what happened to the LeT kills, guys?
All's quiet. ..before the storm?
Pressure off?

Anonymous said...

No use killing the LeT and JeM sods and losing our boys. The enemy is within.

Anonymous said...

There has been much written about this issue but I must admit that there is truth in the contention that the PMFs especially the BSF has an equally hard life and deserve a better deal. However, one of the bloggers,(banu, I think) apparently from the BSF, has written a large amount of un-necessary stuff. Banu, first off, let us dispense with this bureaucratic word-play and get real. You, the 'babus' and the whole wide world knows that what the three Service Chiefs did was not 'disobedience', 'indiscipline' or any such crap; these are tactics to basically muddy the waters. Was any statement made by any of the three Chiefs saying that the Committee of Secretaries are dishonourable, opportunistic, imperialist buggers?(That they ARE is beside the point). All that they have said is that there are issues whihc are being taken up with the concerned authorities. Fair enough, I say. Get this misconception out of your head that the Armed Forces are manned by automatons who blindly obey orders. Gone are the times when the soldiers were lesser educated and were deeply in awe of their officers. They are much better educated and aware now. HOWEVER, on the battle-field, you will never find a SINGLE guy who refuses to fight, even knowing fully well that he will most probably die. He will not refuse an order to assault a heavily defended post, even though he knows that the job is well-nigh impossible. BECAUSE he is taught from the day he joins that it is HIS job to defend, even at the cost of his life. THAT is what and when it matters. "The end for which a soldier is recruited, clothed, armed and trained,
the whole object of his sleeping, eating, drinking and marching is
simply that he should fight at the right place and the right time
- Carl von Clausewitz"
About the signals to their respective men, I think it is only a blind, biased and malicious mind which can read something sinister into a routine communication from a Service Chief to his demoralised men.
'Jai Sri Krishna' says "Lots of officers at Lt Col are challenging the Govt by threatening to resignation." Where has he got this info from ? Have they come and told him that this is what they have in mind ? I am sitting in a place where every application for PR drops in and I have NOT seen any such trend. So, Mister, stop talking nonsense and don't spread ugly rumours and malicious gossip.
And this crap about PBORs being given a raw deal. Why do you people open certain orifices without any knowledge of the subject you are talking about ?? Except for the MSP, which the Services wanted enhanced to 3000 but the same babudom you represent shot down, which anomaly are you talking about ??
I have a strong feeling that, on a rotation basis, these IAS free-loaders need to be sent to places like Siachen, on board small Naval missile ships in monsoon, the Thar Desert with the camel-mounted BSF guys and strapped into an aging MiG, all in succession so that when they come back, they have a first-hand experience of what it feels like out there - where there is no AC, no flunkies, no car for him and memsahib's shopping. But what they will never experience is the helpless feeling you get when you are torn out of a place you have JUST settled in and transferred across the country, your child loses all his friends and your entire world has to be rebuilt from scratch. And this crap happens every 2 to 3 years ! You guys stay in the same house for your entire bleeding career and after retirement too, in some cases. And YOU have the audacity to question whether the Forces have their demans correct or not ??
As far as the IAS mafia and their flunkies go, a saying comes to mind "Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."
A country that does not respect its soldiers is condemned to find itself under the enemy's jackboots.

Anonymous said...

Well said.
Now, lets get back to killing some LeT.

Anonymous said...

Dear bp,
If you need some more blogs to spread your ideas I will help you out,Tell me what you get out of it.
You are a Commandant and in PB-4,let LTCols also get some more money and some status
Well I have gone and read your blog on CPMF/CPOs, it will be year before you can come to this blog. We are not having with PMF it is with babus you need not to worry

ABCD of things said...

There is a new terrorist organisation - IAS

The BSF!!See how well and truly they fought and maintained the sanctity of India's border in the attacks by the BDR (Bangladesh Rifles)! Those who were caught sleeping did so eternally and those who were awake were found miles away from their BoPs.

How come the BDR never tries its tricks with the Army??

B P SINGH said...

Dear Pawan,
I wish your thoughts are as clean as your name. However I must agree that atleast your language was not faulty . With full regards to our Defence services , WHAT Iam fighting is for my young officers in CPOs.
And my dear ANOY yes I in PB-4, but on the same time wants Second-in-Command/Commandt(Junior Grade) should also get into PB-4 along with LTCols, what is wrong in that.

Anonymous said...

BP Singh Ji,
What is this faulty language you keep harping on in all your posts?
What exactly you want to say?
Don't try to put a facade of being polished.
You look quite elderly from your photograph on your blog that is why I am leaving at that else I would have explained you what is a faulty language.
Fight your battle on your blog,we have No problems but for heaven's sake don't put light to the safety fuze unless you want to hear some real harsh words.
Take leave from here.

Harry said...

@ abcd Bro

Lets NOT reopen those raw wounds of MOST HEINOUS actions of BDR. We all knw BSF can't be compared with ARMY even in wildest dreams!! We knw there standards of trg, eqpt, ethos,culture... Wen they are under command Army, they are assigned the least threatened approach and given the relatively softer job..So lets not bother to reply to pinpricks/barbs of CPOs (And NOT repeat NOT CPMFs, 'cos only two CPMFs are Assam Rifles and NSG, remember by definition CPMFs are those which r officered by Military Officers).

js said...

check out the following link to see who else has overtaken the Lt Cols:http://kvsangathan.nic.in/homepage.aspx

Anonymous said...

Hello every body
Please save this organisationfrom destruction.It will not be possible to build this organisation and bring to present glory and standard.The amount of effort that goes in training an officer is humongous.This army if broken by such turmoil will be fatal for the country.There is debacle waiting to happen.Till date for all problems army is the last solution .So for the COUNTRY sake not for GODS sake save this organisation.
There is tremendous simmering and bubble of frustration disgustion brewing at the mid and lower level.
there is slow n steady exodus from Army .name another organisation in this country or any where in world where 2000 officers OF CLASS ONE GAZZETED GRADE have asked for premature retirement. There has to be some thing wrong.save this organisatio to save this country.
The simple solution is ask all class one officers all india serviceS to serve in army for 2-4 years and let them go back to their parent organisations after their stint . this will solve officer shortage in army
and we will have friends in all organisation and such problems will not arise.
GOD save the organiastion to save the COUNTRY.
All senior Army officers IAS officers Politicians listen to the call of the nation before the nation perishes.Then there will be no one to fight or subjugate it will be like the British or Mughal raj
jai hind
from a serving soldier

Anonymous said...

The only solution left is now for the Government to upgrade 12k as well as Lt Col to PB4 immediately.

This will save the country from turmoil.

Izzat will also come back to one and all.

Hope it gets implemented soon.

All the best to all concerned

Harry said...

@ BP Singh Saab

Maj Navdeep has given enough logic and justification as to why Second-in-Command/Comdt(JG) can not be compared with Lt Col. If you have any valid rebuttal, pls shoot lest your talk abt PB4 for CPO 2IC/Comdt(JG) is all wishful thinking!

Harry said...

@ Anony at 8:31 PM

Dont Forget Majors starting Pay is also more than 12K. So if all 12K types are pushed up then Majors and equivalent from Armed Forces can't be left behind !!Hopefully, in solving 1, they dont end up creating yet another anomaly!!

Anonymous said...

The Army will never agree to move a major to pb4.

Pl be reasonable while giving solutions

There will not be another anamoly if 12k and Lt Col both go to PB4

Izzat will be saved

Anonymous said...

O BP Sir, tussi ki gallan kar rahe ho? Saadi service ik jaisi hi haingi, assi dono desh di vardi pehente hain...

Dono ik duje naal jaan watan de naam kar dende hain...

To ik naukarshah di gallan de waste ik bhai apne hi bhai ko gaali galot de, ae galat haiga...

Sir. Aap ki gal maan bhi li, koi ni. Saadi ladayi aap de naal nahi hai.

Anonymous said...

The letter to Ms Sushma Nath requires that one understand the development of ICS( and after that IAS). It also calls for thorough knowledge of the relationship between the Royal Indian Armed Forces and the ICS.

ICS was largely Indianised wherein many Indian Oxans or barristers or Stephenians from rich families would be taken to administer the Colony largely as Babbons what the British would call them. However, British did not part with the Command of the Armed Forces.

Hence, the British Army officer always remained superior "Gora" always Competed, hated and despised by the Indianised ICS, for status, seniority, pay, bungalow and authority.

The sudden independence brought the ICS to fore and leadership to fall on them. But in the Army not many Indians were available to take over. That was good enough for ICS to commence dessimation of the institution which represented "Gora" sahib.

That historical baggage is being carried by ICS and now IAS and they are hell bent on destroying that image which tormented their forefathers (ICS) before independence..Earlier it was for psychological satisfaction and later it bacame a spychopathetic compulsion..Mutiny being the buzz word..as was occuring in post colonial era in the third world...

Not some studies but many of those do exist to establish institututional memories and institutional genetics..taraditions, cultures and ethos. Most marked being in beahavioural Sciences and amangement studies..IAS is just carrying on with that..They finished the task long ago but now they are indulging in sadistic pleasure...without realising they themselves are but a faint shadow of their past ICS....

In the process they are hell bent on destroying another Institution called Indian Armed Forces..without realizing there is no more a "Gora" there...but their own sibling...their own countrymen...

It is unfortunate but it is true... There are problems of balance , equity, adjustments and meeting requirenets of the day but not so acute as to force the IAS to flex their muslces to destroy or what they call as raising to dust...

Such are strange "Games People Play".... "I am OK you are not OK"...

Alas !!

Anonymous said...

http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/2008/02/06/indian-army-image-reality/#comment-10561

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir,

The ideal solution to the present problem would be to move all armed forces officers including all Gp A civilian officers to PB4

JCO's and Gp B Gazetted Civilian officers to PB3

All supervisory personnel in other ranks of the Services and civilians staff of class 3 to PB2

The rest of the remaining employees in the Services as well as in the central government to PB1

No problems on IZZAT and money also

Everyone will be happy for ever

Country will be saved from turmoil

Anonymous said...

@ all, courtesy Gconnect comment, by menon, at 22:24, 06 Nov

In accordance with the recommendations of the IV Pay commission, officers of the Army, Navy, &Air Force were granted Rank pay in addition to the basic pay in the integrated pay scale of Rs 2300-100-3900-150-4200-EB-150-5100. CDA(O) while fixing the pay in the integrated scale created a ‘faux paus’ by deducting ‘rank pay’ from the total emoluments and then doing the pay fixation resulting in huge financial loss to the officers with cumulative effect on pay, DA, Pension, gratuity, commutation etc.

In the case of Maj AK Dhanapalan Vs Union of India in OP 2448/96, The Hon’ble High Court of Kerela allowed the plea of the officer and held that the deduction of the rank pay was not correct and directed to re fix the basic pay of the officer from 1.1.1986. Appeal filed by the Union of India before the larger bench of the High Court & SLP in the Hon’ble Supreme Court against the judgment was dismissed. Although Govt sanction to pay arrears to Maj AK Dhanapalan were issued, the benefit was not extended to similarly placed officers of the three Services. This is injustice to the affected officers.

Since pay fixation of the IV pay commission was wrong, the consequential pay fixation of V pay commission is also wrong, so also pension, commutation, leave encashment, gratuity, etc

Latest on the case as of 3 Nov 2008: 4 CPC rank pay anomaly case, came up for hearing in Supreme Court on 03 Nov 2008. UPON hearing the counsel for the parties the Court made the following Order:-

” Learned counsel for the parties submit that the matter which are ready for hearing may be taken up for hearing ……………. Two weeks time is granted for filing rejoinder. Put up for final disposal thereafter.”

Anonymous said...

Address of Lt Gen(Retd)SK Sinha
Former Vice Chief and Governor of Assam and J&K.
At a press conference at
New Delhi, 05 Nov 2008

I feel privileged to be invited to address this conference on two important issues, with which I have a very long association. These are emoluments of Army officers and the violence in Assam.
Emoluments of Army Officers
In his address to West Point, President Eisenhower said, "When diplomats fail to maintain peace the soldier is called out to restore peace. When the civil administration fails to maintain order the soldier is called out to restore order. As the Nation's final safeguard, the Army cannot afford a failure in either circumstance. Failure of the Army can lead to national catastrophe, endangering the survival of the Nation." I would urge our decision-makers to ponder over this statement of Eisenhower.
As one who served in the Indian Army both before and after Independence, I would like to apprise you how the emoluments and status of Army officers have been persistently lowered since Independence. Before Independence, the Army got emoluments at par with the ICS and at some points higher than the latter. After Independence the Government brought down the salary of Army officers to the level of IPS officers, with a slight edge for the former. This resulted in our salaries getting considerably slashed. At the time of Independence, I was drawing a salary of Rs 1300 a month which overnight got reduced to Rs 770. Never before or after, have salaries of serving personnel been reduced so arbitrarily. The old salaries of our contemporaries in the ICS and IP were duly protected. No one from the Army went to court or launched any agitation. We accepted this blatant injustice with a stiff upper lip and enthusiastically went to war in Kashmir in which many of my colleagues got martyred. That was in 1947. We must accept that India of today is very different.
The pay equation between Army and Police officers was maintained till the Fourth Pay Commission, when this started being altered to the disadvantage of Army officers. I compliment the three Service Chiefs for doing their bounden duty in taking up the case of the emoluments of Lt Cols and Lt Gens at the highest level. I am surprised that some journalists, ignorant of facts have been critical of the Army and the Chiefs on this score.
I do not wish to bother you with details. I understand that to scuttle the case of Lt Cols, a red herring of comparing them with Deputy Commandants of Para Military Forces, has been raised. The latter till recently were Class 2 officers and even today are not at par with IPS officers. Moreover, the role and responsibility of the Army is different from that of the Para Military. As for Lt Gens, they got higher emoluments and held higher status than the Chief of Police of a State. That equation is also now sought to be altered to the disadvantage of the Army.
In 1973 Manekshaw was appointed Field Marshal. As Adjutant General I took up the case of the salary of Field Marshal with the Government. It took the Babus 33 years to take a decision and finally Manekshaw got his arrears of Rs 1.2 crores in 2007. The Defence Secretary handed over a cheque for that amount to him. Soon after, I met Manekshaw in the hospital, when he was on a ventilator. I congratulated him. He smiled and in his imitable way said that a Babu had given him a cheque but he was not sure if that cheque would be honoured.
Not only in terms of emoluments but also protocol, the position of Army officers has been persistently lowered after Independence. This applies to the Army Chief downwards and often this has been done afterr the Army has fought a war successfully. The protocol status of a Field Marshal has not yet been fixed in the Table of Precedence because Babudom wants to preserve the higher status of the Bara Babu, the Cabinet Secretary. When our first Field Marshal passed away recently, only a Minister of State attended the funeral. When the first British Field Marshal, the Duke of Wellington, passed away, Heads of States , Ambassadors, Prime Minister and Ministers attended his funeral. Such a cavalier approach of our rulers to the Army, aptly described by Eisenhower as the Nattion's ultimate weapon, is not in our national interest.
Assam
The shocking serial bomb blasts in Assam, the other day, in which over 81 innocent people got killed is a sad reflection on the functioning of the Government which has reduced India to a very soft State. Terrorists have been attacking city after city and our rulers issue only inane statements. In the case of Assam, the Nation is being made to suffer self-inflicted wounds. Way back in the Sixties, forty years ago the then Governor of Assam, B K Nehru, and his Chief Minister B P Chaliha wanted to take measures against the influx of illegal migrants and took up the matter with the Centre. They were told to stop the nonsense. B K Nehru was from the dynasty, a cousin of Indira Gandhi. In his autobiography, Nice Guys Finish Second, he wrote that Chaliha belonged to an earlier generation of Congressmen that had a different set of values. They considered national interest above party interests which was now not so with the present generation of Congressmen. This was a clear indictment of vote bank politics. Thirty years later, as Governor of Assam, I also took up this issue. I submitted a 42 page report to the President of India. I made 15 specific recommendations to check the danger posed by the unabated influx of illegal migrants from Assam not only to the demography of Assam but also to the Nation's security. These recommendations included the repeal of IMDT Act, border fencing, introducing photo identity cards at least in the border districts and updating national register of citizens. My recommendations were ignored. Congress legislators in Assam appealed to the President calling for my recall. Ultimately, the IMDT Act was struck down by the Supreme Court quoting extensively from my report but the Government brought it back through the backdoor, by amending the Foreigner's Act. The fencing of the 260 kilometer land border in Assam supposed to have started in 1985, is not yet fully complete. While I was Governor of J & K, the Army completed a much more sophisticated fencing of 750 kilometers of the border, in far more difficult terrain. As for photo identity cards and national registere of citizens, no action whatsoever has been taken.
There has been total lack of political will to take any action to stop the demographic aggression in Assam due to vote bank considerations. On 10 April 1992, Hiteshwar Saikia the then Chief Minister of Assam stated in the State Assembly that there were 3 million illegal immigrants in Assam. Two days later he was pressurized to say to the Press that there were no illegal immigrants in Assam. On 6 May 1997 the then Union Home Minister, Indrajit Gupta, told the Parliament that there were 1 crore illegal Bangladeshi immigrants in India. On 15 July 2004 K P Jaiswal the Minister of State for Home told the Parliament that there were 1.2 crore illegal immigrants in the country. The following day Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was in Guwahati. Obviously under the influence of local Congressmen, he stated that the figures mentioned by his junior Minister in the Parliament were not authentic. A week later Jaiswal told the Parliament that he had quoted figures on the basis of hearsay.
The root cause of militancy and Jehadi violence in Assam has been illegal migration from Bangladesh. For the sake of votes, the ruling party has not only been turning a Nelson's eye to the problem but has been encouraging it.
The influx of illegal migrants from Bangladesh into Assam continues unabated. The demographic contour of all the border districts, particularly in Lower Assam has changed radically. In many of these districts Bangladeshis are now in a majority. The district of Dhubri which abuts the sensitive Siliguri corridor, called the Chicken Neck,has a 70% Bangladeshi Muslim population. The consequence of this for the entire land mass of the North East can be most serious. It vitally affects not only the people of Assam but the entire Nation. Apart from the Government required totake stringent measures against Jehadi terrorism all the country, it must take prompt concrete measures on a war footing, to counter the unabated influx of illegal migrants from Bangladesh into Assam.

Lt Gen SK Sinha (Retd)

Anonymous said...

Poor Gen Sinha.
He is afraid that if he lives long, he will ignominiously and painfully bear witness to the disintegration of his beloveds - army and country.

Anonymous said...

The fact is that the top IAS functionaries squander all their energy and leverage with the political executive for turf protection. That the army is the last bastion doesn't mean it is the only bastion of the country. But unfortunately the All India Services(IAS & IPS)have abdicated as if the Army is the 'First Bastion'.
Even this pay fracas was the result of 'lets garner for ourselves, the army can always look after itself'. Little realising that the remaining vestiges of trust between the forces and bureaucracy stand completely shattered.What an utterly irresponsible thing to do!

Anonymous said...

It is always a treat to read or listen to what Gen Sinha has been writing and saying....

Thinking General and understating soldier do not fit into the scheme of things of the elites as was abundantly clear from the nasty article Ms Arundhatti Ghosh had written in the Tribune. The elites and politicians live in expediency either farting or firefighting. They have deliberately not allowed institutions, academia, and standing mechanism who could think about national problems and suggest something beyond routine administrative measure. Our bureaucracy have assumed that mantle which is not theirs and failed miserably to administer which is forte. They have divided the entire country into "we" and "they" wherein there is no place for thinking and dissent in the frame called "we"..


This is high time for Indian Polity to decide whoes country is this anyway..? the present monolith of "we" has been broadbased on caste and social justice lines but not on the functional lines. Broadbasing the "we" on functional lines is equally important for the health of the Country and society

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous November 7, 2008 9:58 AM

Please don't be sarcastic towards those whose heart bleed for country and their men. You cannot be expected to understand this bond because people like you have NEVER thought beyond 'I, me and myself'. Grow up. And have the grace to accord the due respect to a retired soldier who has shed his blood for the nation.

Anonymous said...

hi,
good news.
isssues of 6pc WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED by govt. as per usual style, the directions are to delay the issue so that it tires out. this is the dictum given 2 services HQs and it is to be followed in letter and spirit.
.....only the issues of jawans penison may be accepted.
.....the lt col issue is that if lt col gets the PB4 then there will be issues with PMF so govt WILL NOT accept it. ya to please lt col there will be a mid way PB where they will get some thing more ie very small changes 2 show to them that the services did its bid. but not materialist change in pay.
......the Lt gen isssue .. no change.
....as for the grade pay. status quo to be maintened as this does not merit any change.
so guys all the best.. keep harping till 7PC...

Anonymous said...

source of good news pl

Anonymous said...

Well all the services people stand up and be counted .
all the news of chiefs ,HQs, etc are issues which r 2 pass time.
next time services should say the same and form a committee to say if a thing is 2 b done or not.
why should we :-
1. go down a bore well 2 save a child where a GENERAL SHAIB can show to the world HE HAS DONE IT.
2. DO all the dirty task of flood relief. Fisrt let Govt use babus, (who run away) then PMF and then only ARMY and let the GOVT say IT IS INCOMPETENT TO HANDLE ISSUE and IT IS SOS by govt. and give all the power in writing before ARMY accepts the same.
3. Now with elections due in J&K and NE. ARMY should say it has NO ROLE let the civilans do that/ and ARMY equipment is meant for FIGHTING and not to ferry reporters and people to all the hinterlands.
4.. the Army should NOT ACCEPT ANY ROLE IN ELECTIONs .
let the NATION, babus..politicians...PUblic..MEDIA say that they have failed then only army should move out .
5. ARMy gets 2 yr of peace satation 2 be with OUR CHILDREN and family and to rest and recoup before 3 yr of fd area. so give them the rest and NOT SUNDRY DUTIES WHOCH ThE BABUs DOES NOT WANT to do.\
USE PMF if required after all they are in PB4....
and if the HQs will not listen time is not far away when the officers will refuse their Sr and say STAND UP FOR THE RIGHT ....

Anonymous said...

For Armed Forces Pay Cell

NEGOTIATION

Any good negotiation should result in
Win Lose –The loser
feels cheated
Results in the winner’s ego
Is reluctant to risk it again
Wants revenge.
Lose Lose : both parties
Feel let down/frustrated
Lose goodwill for one another
Are reluctant to repeat the experience.


Four forces of negotiation
Leverage
Information
Timing
Approach

Leverage
Things other want:
-Motivation
Benefits to them
Rewards/ punishments
Formal
Power
Titles and status
Situation
Information
Your own position
The other party
Common interests
Conflict
Influencing factors
Processes
Getting Information
Timing
Pressure 80 : 20
Timing for impact
Readjustment
Approach
Set high, positive goals
- the self-fulfilling prophecy
Visible objective
- avoid tangents
Open attitude
-Confident of mutual success
- Listen
Vocabulary and pharaseology
- positive
- authoritative

Stages of negotiating
Preparation
Scene setting
Stating goals
Exchanging information :
- facts - needs
- responses - desires
- feelings

Stages of negotiating
Exploring conflict and compromises
Establishing Alternatives
Offers and compromises
Agreements
Administration
Establish BATNA-(Best Alternative to a negotiated Agreement)
Invent a list of action possible if no agreement
Essential to know whether to accept alternative arrived at through negotiation versus ending negotiation.
Must consider other side’s BATNA as well as your own.
Improve some of the ideas from the list of negotiation - create practical alternatives.
Select the alternatives that seem best.


Planning for negotiation
Negotiating is a process not just a single meeting.
Do your homework. Start by writing down your objective in three categories
Need to
Want to
Nice to


Strategies
Fait accompli strategy:
One side does whatever it wants and expects the other sides to accept the terms and the outcome.

Standard practice strategy:
What is being suggested is acceptable because it is “standard practice”.

Deadline strategy:
Time can be a powerful weapon



Five 'don'ts'
Don't accept the first offer – at least not immediately
Don't be the first
- to name a price
- to offer to split the difference
Don't get seduced so you can't walk away
Don't admit you're under time pressure
Don't leave a single issue outstanding
It leaves you with confrontation and yes/no decision



MORAL STORY : PREPARE FOR TWO YEARS NEGOTIATION, HAVE NO FALSE EXPECTATIONS AND HIGH HOPES.KEEP RAISING ANONALIES ONE AFTER THE OTHER LIKE THEY CREATING. HIRE SERVICE PROFESSIONAL HEPL TO SEE ENIRE PAY REPORT

CREATE A LARGE JOINT ANOMALIES CELL, SUBSEQUEVTLY TO BE CONVERTED INTO ANOMALIES DEPTT. UNDER PRESENT DEPSENSATION IT IS INESCABLE

ALL THE BEST

Anonymous said...

The above is the best writeup since the pay commission submitted the report.

Anonymous said...

One Army Col in jail, ATS is asking details of 3 more serving officers.
True colours are now out
What these Ltcols say on this.
Govt should shift even cols/Brigs back to PB3

Anonymous said...

***FLASH***

Veterans to meet with GoM on anomalies issue on Tuesday, 11th. Theyre also meeting with S. Yechury. This is as per Shiv Aroor.

Anonymous said...

And as for this bugger purveying the "Good News", bugger off. The government is too shit scared to announce this verdict, because it knows that if it does, it will be refused flat out.

Anonymous said...

"One Army Col in jail, ATS is asking details of 3 more serving officers.
True colours are now out
What these Ltcols say on this."

As a commissioned officer, I feel ashamed of Purohit's alleged complicity in murder of the defenceless. If it is true as being made out in the media, then, it is not his politics but the shameless betrayal of the Warrior's Code of Conduct that makes his crime far graver than you realise, my friend.
I am sure the police will ensure that Purohit will suffer the consequences. A Court Martial, of course, would dispense quicker and far more exemplary justice.

Anonymous said...

Mr Anonymous @November 7, 2008 3:26 PM

"One Shower does not a monsoon make". Just because one guy has been a bad apple, does not make everyone the same. By the same yardstick, umpteen IAS officials have been caught taking bribes and indulging in corrupt practices. So should ALL the IAS be locked up i prison or walk around wearing a placard saying "I am a Thief; Kick me" ??

Besides, this has the smack of a frame up - the timing is just too convenient. Maybe a stick to beat the Forces into submission, eh?

danny said...

anno @ 1.39 PM

Pura Business Commn ka MBA subject kara diya yaar. keepin an eye. don't worry.

Anonymous said...

Dear anon 3,26 pm 07 nov,
Wow what a logic one bad apple one payband down. Agreed , now follow same for others too - entire basket of rotten / spoilt apples & eggs ( it is derogatory for spoilt / rotten apples and eggs - sorry apples and eggs )--- which pay band should they be in , if atall they should they should have all have been behind bars .

pawan said...

Dear anonymous,
If the officer is actually guilty then better chance is that defence punish him or else with the quality of Judiciary, Executive and Legislature on the whole he may get scot free. I you dare to apply the same template to IAS & IPS then you know it very well OVER 80% of IAS & IPS will be behind bars. IT is not a matter of happiness for ANYONE, but a MATTER OF GREAT CONCERN and Ananlysis/Introspection as to the reasons for a Defence Officer to Even think of such DRASTIC ACTION.
I would request all True and Genuine Defence personnels to maintain the high standards for which they are truly loved, respected and known, during blogging.

Anonymous said...

I do not think that comparing Army pay with IAS or IPS is of any use. I am of the firm opinion that, irrespective of the quantum of pay or pension, army officers will never be able to afford the life standards of IAS or IPS officers or the life style of SDOs, Chief Engineers or even DSPs. Some how or the other, even is some of them may not be well off before joining the service they manage to come out very rich. I think they learn to manage their funds better (Sic!)
So let us get the best we can and relax.

kushal said...

Friends, here is another goof by our MOD. The rank pay when it was first introduced it was carved out of the basic pay. This point has been even dabated in courts and supreme court has finally held that the arrears of rank pay of the offr till his date of service be paid and they have since been paid to the offr who had contested the case. The benefit of this court decision has not been given to all the other similarly placed offrs of the three sevices. The arrears work out to be a huge amount. So guys, some of you who are settled in Delhi should take up the matter in the supreme court for extension of similar benefits to all such affected offr who were in service as on 01.01.1986. For full story read this case of Maj A K Dhanapaln(Retd) on site http://www.afakarnataka.org/pension/pension.php

Anonymous said...

Shoot the bastard babus, all problems will be solved.