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Friday, October 24, 2008

In these times of chaos, this seems to be the perfect dose. (Yes, I’m being sarcastic !)

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Look at the definition of Rank Pay in Special Army Instruction (SAI) 2/S/98 :

2 (b)
: “RANK PAY” means the pay admissible to an officer appropriate to the rank actually held, either in acting or substantive capacity, in addition to the pay in the revised scale. Rank Pay forms part of the basic pay.

And the definition in the recently issued SAI 2/S/08 :

3 (b) : “RANK PAY” means the Rank Pay admissible to Commissioned Officers of the three services.

Can you spot the difference ?

Now read this from ‘The Tribune’ this morning.

FRESH ROW OVER PAY ORDERS

MoD delinks rank pay from basic pay

Vijay Mohan

Tribune News Service
Chandigarh, October 23


A fresh controversy appears to have erupted over orders issued by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) on revision of the pay scales of armed forces personnel consequent to the implementation of the Sixth Pay Commission recommendations.

In new special army instructions (SAIs) issued in the past week, the MoD has modified the definition of rank pay earlier admissible to commissioned officers and has de-linked it from the basic pay despite the fact that SAIs issued after the fourth and the fifth pay commissions define rank pay as “part of basic pay”.

Legal experts say that the fresh move of the MoD to de-link rank pay is not only in contravention of approved recommendations of the Union Cabinet, but also against the spirit of the MoD’s own earlier SAIs and court orders. The revised definition, sources claim, would adversely impact the status of armed forces officers.

Para 3 (b) of the SAI 2/S/08 issued on October 11, 2008, terms rank pay only as “rank pay admissible to commissioned officers of the three services”. Earlier, SAI 2/S/87 and SAI 2/S/98 also mentioned that rank pay forms a part of the basic pay. It is learnt that the service headquarters are taking up the issue with the MoD.

The new “disparity” has come to light even as a high-level committee comprising three Cabinet ministers constituted to look into pay-related issues raised by the armed forces is yet to submit its report. According to officers, rank pay was carved out of basic pay of military officers by the Fourth Pay Commission, when a common scale was introduced for all ranks from second Lieutenant till Brigadier. The rank pay was added into the basic pay as a differentiating factor. The addition of rank pay as a part of basic pay was approved by the Union Cabinet and also notified in SAIs issued by the MoD.

Sources claimed that there were still instances wherein civilian officers posted to the MoD, by their own interpretation, refused to add rank pay into basic pay for status comparison purposes, despite the fact that courts of law had also ruled rank pay to be an integral part of basic pay.

While the tussle over the status of Lieutenant Colonel and Colonel vis-à-vis equivalent civilian officers continues, the Jodhpur and Chennai Benches of the Central Administrative Tribunal have, in a case filed by MES officers, already held that directors and superintending engineers of the Central Engineering Services are junior to full Colonels and are equivalent to Lieutenant Colonels.

In the meantime, the Central government has started implementing pay progression parity for all Group A organised civilian officers with the IAS but the defence services have been kept outside the purview of the new scheme. The pay achieved by 100 per cent civil officers in 16 years is achievable by less than one per cent military officers and that too after 33 years of service, sources said.


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77 comments:

Anonymous said...

the only way to resolve this issue is to ensure our relatives and all of the mens relative vote and ensure that the congress govt is broiught down. High time we all get together and sensitise the men of the problems happening and ensure they relay it to their villages, cities and town. With our strenght in numbers and our relatives and friends it is not very difficult to let people know about the scheming bureaucrats and crude politicians

Anonymous said...

@anon at 8:14AM,
Hone lagi hai jism mein jumbish tau dekhiye,
is par kate parind ki koshis tau dekhiye,

Goonge nikal padey hain zubaan ki talash mein ,
Sarkar ke khilaaf yeh sazish tau dekhiye.
_Dushyant kumar(in book titled 'Saaye mein dhoop)

Anonymous said...

My humble request to Defence Minister and MoD. Don't play with the morale of individuals. Disband Defence Forces, in a similar way the Airlines had done it to their employees. Then the Finance Minister will have ample money to induct in airlines and Sharemarket.I think it would be better for this govt to disband the armed forces. they would save lot of expenditure as under:

(a)Annual budget expenditure on defence forces
(b) Expenditure creation of infrastructre for def forces.
(c) Constr of strategic roads on borders and link roads
(d) Constr of accn for defence forces in peace loc and their maintenance
(e) With this stop production of def related DRDO
(f) Expenditure on Survey of India can be reduced
(g) MES Expenditre which runs in thousands of crores can be saved and with that lot of corruption also can be saved.
I remember the quote of Supreme Court Judge. "Even GOD cannot save this Nation. To fir apni aukat kya hai bhai?

Anonymous said...

Hum to na Ghar k rahey na Ghat k.
PMR papers are returned giving no reasons. In parliament Defence Minister says there is no resentment. And you can't quote resentment over SCPC as reason. Yeh to bhayya Bhandua mazdooron se bhi Bhura haal hai.
Appch Labour Commission May get some help there.

Anonymous said...

This is another proof of their maligned intent to downgrade the Fauzi

Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeep,

There is a rumour that starting basic for Cols is 40890/- which is equivalent to 17100 starting basic in S 24 scale for civilian officers as per the new SAI 2/S/2008. I thought Cols and Lt Cols were in S 25 scale. Actually the starting basic should be 42120 for Cols as per S 25 scale (equivalent to 17100 erstwhile basic in S 25 scale) as was also the equivalence drawn in the original recommendations of SCPC by the Commission. All this while We thought that we are fighting for Lt Cols equivalence in S25. May I request you to clarify please.

Anonymous said...

Navdeep,
We have seen clearly that this pay commission was a cospiracy against Armed Forces.
Now tell us whether all this can be challenged in a court of law?
If yes,I am sending you the vakalatnama alongwith a DD of
Rs 80,000/ (Amount I got as adhoc arrears to make my Diwali colorful,sic)
Please file a writ and obtain a stay on implementation of this.
Now we have No trust on anyone except Judiciary.

Anonymous said...

The V CPC had envisaged that some party would be maintained between between Armed Forces and Class A Civil Services. The commission established Parity as follows:

1. At Entry Leval . Between Lt and JTS with edge being provided to Lt in starting scale and No rank pay.

2. Seven years between pay scales of Dy Sec and Major (rank pay included)

3. At 17 years butween pay scales of Dir and Lt Col.

4. Maj Gen Level between pays of Jt Secy and Maj Gen.

The problem envisaged was regarding acting ranks. The IAS refused to what they called "Extending the scale backwards" as that would amount to making Services Officers senior to IAS counterparts in some cases as also disturb batch seniority. Hence a portion of the pay was designated as rank pay and awarded to the acting rank.

However, when an officer reached Substantive ranks at 7 years (Maj) and 17 years (Lt Col) their pay (basic plis rank pay was somewhat equivalant to IAS Dy Secy and Director. Rank pay was carved out to distinguish between rank and to cater for acting rank.

How are they now saying rank pay is not part of Basic pay??

This is too much and IAS is "eating and manipulating their own words" and schemes of subjugation of Army.

This much for the honesty and integrity fo IAS steel frame. Are we Armed Forces of IAS?

yogesh said...

Really good fight! Lot of mischief and lies! High level of sophistry!Where does it land?
Have you ever thought?

Anonymous said...

My Dear (Dushyant wala) Ano Above:

I appreciate that. Army is being forced into "you have nothing to loos but your chains" situation by the Govt and IAS Goons. I was shocked to read how many of them are history sheeters, Mafia lords and criminals. Scamesters they all are.

I am absolutely dismayed and feel utterly helpless and cheated. God also seems to have deserted us. GoM is sitting over the issue. The emerging situation is going to be bad for the Country.

BAAR KI SAMBHAWANAYEN SAMANE HAIN
AUR NADAYIN KE KINARE GHAR BASE HAIN
CHEER VAN MEN SAANCHYON KI BAAT MAT KAR
IN VRIKSHON KE BAHUT NAZUK TANE HAIN

The Beauracracy is launching final assault on the Nation. They are really "instigating" the Armed Forces. Armed Forces should fall back to the Gods of Democracy...The People..politicians, media and acedemai....

Fall back to the people...Fall abck to "Bharat Bhagya Vidhata" rather than accept the Bureacracy and Police to be "Bharat Bhagya Vidhata"... Let them decide equations between Bureacracy and the Armed Forces once for all. Bureaucracy has proved to be the enemies of Armed Forces. Let Courts intevene if Political Class is unable to decide.

Lt Cols...it seems the battle now is long drawn....so do not nurse short term hopes... Be realisic...

Jai Hind

Anonymous said...

Gentlemen,
Lt Cols in PB3.
You may observe 2 minutes silence.
The duration may be extended your discretion!
Hahahaha.

Anonymous said...

I want to thoko someone.

S K said...

Dear Navdeep Sir,
There was a letter also on the subject of "Rank Pay",issued by MOD during Jan/Feb 2000, when I was in service. May I request the serving lots to go through the old policy files of that era. I shall also try and revert back only on Monday i.e. 27-10-08.
Regards
Major SK Jain (Retd.)

Anonymous said...

If Rank Pay is not part of Basic pay, then how can an officer in higher rank acting capacity be considered senior to another officer holding the same substantative rank with higher basic pay of substantive rank?

Say a maj was promoted to acting rank of Lt Col at 14 years of service. He will get basic pay of Maj plus rank pay of Lt Col. A maj of 16 years will be treated junior to him due to diffrences in the total of Basic Pay and rank Pay. Hence, Rank pay is part of Basic Pay. How can MoD (Tirkey and his Boss) play these childish pranks? Are they answerable to someone?? Can the the three Service chiefs please ask the honourable RM is Tirkey has taken over as RRM and Def Sec over the RM???

Tell the MoD they are giving prejudiced and self made logic to scuttle Services HQ case of Lt Col at this stage and hence they can never be trusted. They have lost out on their claim of "Coordination" and have always been an interested and enemical party.

They are running an IAS Assocoation in MoD...and hence have forefieted all moral rights to be in that multi cadre Ministry.

They should leave the Ministry before their IAS Association activites destroys it completely.

Anonymous said...

In view of there being No protectors of the Armed Forces, the three Services should approach the Parliment and Supreme Court to restore their Fundamantal Rights of forming association and freedom of speech.

Abrogation of those rights is not one sided afffair. Those rights are abrogated on the premise that someone else will ensure that Armed Forces interets are not hampered and compromised with.

Since the Grievance machnisism itself is harming and eating into the vitals of the Armed forces, there is no justification for those abridgements to continue. If Armed Forces have been forced to Voice their concerns, there is no use keeping those abrogation as IAS lobby have brought to a stage of failure.

Can any one file a PIL to this effect in the Supreme Court.

If Cheifs want to get justice, it is futile and foolish to expect it from the IAS Bureaucracy. History supports this assertion and it seems to gone beyond reconciliations.

Can some honorable MP move an amandement to the Services Acts in the Parliment?

Can this be included in the demands of Ex servicemen??

Act , do not reamin confined to threats? Enough of posturing.

This opne of the options to get out of this mess...

Rohit said...

@anon at 8.14 AM

Sir,
I've not seen a more apt description of this imbroglio since the past month.

Allow me to send a standard McDonald :)

wind_swept said...

they create a desolation and call it peace.


In Tacitus' Agricola, a Caledonian rebel named Calgacus, addressing "a close-packed multitude" preparing to fight, declares that Rome has overrun so much of the world that "there are no more nations beyond us; nothing is there but waves and rocks, and the Romans, more deadly still than these—for in them is an arrogance which no submission or good behavior can escape." Certain habits of speech, he adds, abet the ferocity and arrogance of the empire by infecting even the enemies of Rome with Roman self-deception:

A rich enemy excites their cupidity; a poor one, their lust for power. East and West alike have failed to satisfy them.... To robbery, butchery, and rapine, they give the lying name of "government"; they create a desolation and call it peace.


The frightening thing about such acts of renaming or euphemism, Tacitus implies, is their power to efface the memory of actual cruelties. Behind the façade of a history falsified by language, the painful particulars of war are lost. Maybe the most disturbing implication of the famous sentence "They create a desolation and call it peace" is that apologists for violence, by means of euphemism, come to believe what they hear themselves say.

Anonymous said...

@ Annon October 24, 2008 12:25 PM
GHISSA PITA JOKE.

Anonymous said...

Repeated from above

" Maj Navdeep,

There is a rumour that starting basic for Cols is 40890/- which is equivalent to 17100 starting basic in S 24 scale for civilian officers as per the new SAI 2/S/2008. I thought Cols and Lt Cols were in S 25 scale. Actually the starting basic should be 42120 for Cols as per S 25 scale (equivalent to 17100 erstwhile basic in S 25 scale) as was also the equivalence drawn in the original recommendations of SCPC by the Commission. All this while We thought that we are fighting for Lt Cols equivalence in S25. May I request you to clarify please.

October 24, 2008 9:34 AM "

Can somebody look into the anomalies of SAI 2/S/08 at this stage itself before it is implemented by CDA

Aditya said...

Wonderful. Meanwhile, the parliamentary panel (With Maj. Manvendra Singh on it), is insisting that the DEFENCE SECRETARY be raised in rank above the SERVICE CHIEFS!

rajiv said...

The Donkey Story


One day a farmer's donkey fell down into a
well. The animal cried piteously for hours as
the farmer tried to figure out what to do.

Finally, he decided the animal was old, and the
well needed to be covered up anyway;
it just wasn't worth it to retrieve the donkey.

He invited all his neighbors to come over and
help him. They all grabbed a shovel and began
to shovel dirt into the well. At first, the donkey
realized what was happening and cried horribly.
Then, to everyone's amazement he quieted down.

A few shovel loads later, the farmer finally
looked down the well. He was astonished at what
he saw. With each shovel of dirt that hit his
back, the donkey was doing something amazing.
He would shake it off and take a step up.

As the farmer's neighbors continued to shovel
dirt on top of the animal, he would shake it
off and take a step up.

Pretty soon, everyone was amazed as the donkey
stepped up over the edge of the well and
happily trotted off!

Life is going to shovel dirt on you, all kinds
of dirt. The trick to getting out of the well
is to shake it off and take a step up. Each of
our troubles is a stepping stone. We can get out
of the deepest wells just by not stopping,
never giving up! Shake it off and take a step up.

Remember the five simple rules to be happy:

Free your heart from hatred - Forgive.

Free your mind from worries - Most never happen.

Live simply and appreciate what you have.

Give more.

Expect less

NOW ...........

Enough of that crap . The donkey later came back,
and bit the farmer who had tried to bury him.
The gash from the bite got infected and
the farmer eventually died in agony from septic shock.
MORAL FROM TODAY'S LESSON:

When you do something wrong, and try to cover
your ass, it always comes back to bite you.

NO PRICE 4 GUESSING WHO'S WHO...

bill said...

At least 10000 of us should seek premature retirement (PMR)giving the undermentioned reasons
1 Not satisfied with 6CPC.
2 Want my fundamental rights restored to form & be member of Armed Forces Officers Union.

If not accepted go to courts

Anonymous said...

i do not think you have courage to quite! Be happy with PB3 my freind!

Anonymous said...

GENTLEMAN READ IT YOURSELF AND UNDERSTAND WHAT THE GOVT IS UPTO...DONT EXPECT JUSTICE...AS I SEE

source : http://epaper.indianexpress.com/IE/IEH/2008/10/24/ArticleHtmls/24_10_2008_010_003.shtml?Mode=0

GoM decision likely by end of the month

HECTIC consultations are on between the Government and the Armed Forces to resolve the pay hike issue even as paramilitary forces have stepped in and questioned some of the demands put forward by defence services.
The Group of Ministers has in principle agreed to the demand for restoring the pension given to Personnel Below Officers Rank (PBOR). The forces had objected to the lowering of the ‘penisonary weightage’ given to PBORs from 70 per cent to 50 per cent by the Pay panel. The earlier weightage of 70 per cent is likely to be restored by the GoM.

After the paramilitary forces stepped in, expressing anger at some of the demands for lowering the status of paramilitary officers, several formulae are being worked out to resolve the issues amicably.

While the PBOR issue is likely to be resolved, consultations are on to tackle the demand of moving Lt Gen and equivalent officers to the HAG plus pay band. The Armed Forces had demanded that all officers of these ranks be moved to the newly created pay band.

However, after Government negotiators indicated that moving all Lt Gen officers to the pay band would not be possible, formulae are being worked out to sort out the issue. Further categorisa tion of the officers to accommodate a proportion of them in the pay band is one of the formulae being mulled over by the government.

The deadlock is over the Armed Forces demand to move Lt Col level officers to Pay Band 3 to give them parity with their civilian counterparts continues. While the Armed Forces have dug in deep with the demand of moving Lieutenant Colonels and their equivalents in Pay Band 4 (Rs 37,400-67,000) instead of the present Pay Band 3 (Rs 15,600-39,100), paramilitary forces and the MEA are insisting that changes will result in administrative problems.

The GoM is expected to give its decision on the pay review by the end of the month.

S K said...

Dear Anonymous 4.49 P.M.
You might be aware that pre-mature retirement from services is not so easy. Even the cases, recommended by service hqrs, are rejected by MOD. A number of offrs and PBORs are not being allowed to quit.Govt should certainly simplify the procedure of pre-mature retirement from the services so that whosoever is not satisfied can leave with dignity. Govt should not treat service personnel as bonded laboureres.

Anonymous said...

@ SK...

WHO SAYS TAKE PREMATURE..JUST RESIGN...THAT CANT BE DENIED..JUST WRITE U DONT WANT TO DO THIS JOB..FRIEND THE RIGHT TO DO A WORK OF UR CHOICE IS STILL UR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT WHICH IS INTACT

Anonymous said...

Pullock mukerjee, sec , who looked after the main affairs of pm & reported to mrs gandhi ,going to world bank, two secretaries from pm office deserting him , when the ship is sinking the rats leave the ship first ,otherwise the wiseman pullock after so much service to akaasn should be sticking closer. no one has to do any effort , the are at the end but the BABOOS will remain do something U guys if not here let it be assam or nagaland or maybe j&k---ak ak ak

Anonymous said...

for SK...

LET ME PUT U WISE ON UR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT...

READ THIS DEFINATION....(LAST PARA)
Right to freedom
The Constitution of India contains the right to freedom, given in articles 19, 20, 21 and 22, with the view of guaranteeing individual rights that were considered vital by the framers of the constitution. The right to freedom in Article 19 guarantees the following six freedoms:[20]

Freedom of speech and expression, which enable an individual to participate in public activities. The phrase, "freedom of press" has not been used in Article 19, but freedom of expression includes freedom of press. Reasonable restrictions can be imposed in the interest of public order, security of State, decency or morality.
Freedom to assemble peacefully without arms, on which the State can impose reasonable restrictions in the interest of public order and the sovereignty and integrity of India.
Freedom to form associations or unions on which the State can impose reasonable restrictions on this freedom in the interest of public order, morality and the sovereignty and integrity of India.
Freedom to move freely throughout the territory of India though reasonable restrictions can be imposed on this right in the interest of the general public, for example, restrictions may be imposed on movement and travelling, so as to control epidemics.
Freedom to reside and settle in any part of the territory of India which is also subject to reasonable restrictions by the State in the interest of the general public or for the protection of the scheduled tribes because certain safeguards as are envisaged here seem to be justified to protect indigenous and tribal peoples from exploitation and coercion.[21]


Freedom to practice any profession or to carry on any occupation, trade or business on which the State may impose reasonable restrictions in the interest of the general public. Thus, there is no right to carry on a business which is dangerous or immoral. Also, professional or technical qualifications may be prescribed for practicing any profession or carrying on any trade.

Anonymous said...

THIS IS WHAT THE NATION WAITS FOR...
This is one proposal of the 6th Central Pay Commission which is really a consolation to the ruing armed forces personnel. The government has accepted a CPC recommendation that the state exchequer bear the travel cost of deceased personnel's family members from the place of death to his village or funeral ...

Anonymous said...

Soldier doesn't gets respect when he is alive and they have given you respite to your dead body.

But If you remember the words of Maj Kuldeep Singh " Mar ke bhi koi ladai jeeti jaati hai kya"

Anonymous said...

The 6th CPC never spoke of the down-gradation of the Lt Cols and equivalent, as also, two more of the anomalies thrown up by the Group of Secretaries.

All of us have fallen for this 'red herring' drawn across the trail by the bureaucrats -- almost certainly, at the behest of their political masters!

What has thus been achieved that NONE of us are even looking at the less-than-peanuts being given by the 6th CPC!! This would result in the 6th CPC going through like a hot knife through butter, when it ultimately comes up after the four anomalies chucked up by the GoS get waived off!

The wily politicians are too practised in their art of deception to not be able to keep the great majority of the servicemen -- as also, the ex-Servicemen! -- at bay forever and never really give ANYTHING!

Every move that they have used after the release of the 6th CPC -- GoS, formation of a GoM, lead articles and editorials in most of the Indian press -- all these were just to keep you looking the other way and not examine the details of the 6th CPC!

This present move is also of a piece with the long term strategy of the politician/ bureaucrat nexus, have no doubts on that!

Anonymous said...

Courtsy-whispers
In U.S. they invented a machine that catches thieves; they took it out
to different countries for a test.

In U.S.A, in 30 minutes, it caught 20 thieves;

In UK , in 30 minutes it caught 50 thieves;

Spain , in 30 minutes it caught 65 thieves;

Ghana , in 30 minutes it caught 600 thieves;

India , in 5 minutes the machine was stolen.

you got the answer

Anonymous said...

SOME FACTS FOR INFORMATION FOR THE BLOGGERS WHO RESPECT TRUTH

1. the Govt. vide Gazette Notification No.D.L.-33004/99 of 2007 had Notified the equivalence between army and civilian officers in case of Boarder Roads Organisation wherein Maj Gen has been equated with Chief Engineer , Colonel with (SE)Director and Lt Col with Joint Director. This was done after the state lost the case in favour of SE of BRO in CAT Guwahati.

2.Equivalence for MES is yet to be issued. Hence please do not issue equivalence at your own.

3.In previous blogs someone has posted equivalence issued by govt in respect of DRDO, SURVEY OF INDIA, DGQA, IDS, AFHQ etc. and as per these orders LT. Col is equal to civilian officers of Dy Sec level .

4.Pl go through the judgement of Hon'ble Tribunal Jodhpur Br carefully before drawing your own conclusions.Judgement does not speak about equivalence at all .As per Judgement if an officer is working under the similar status or even junior officer in that case ACR of the officer will be written by the officer to whom he has reported during the Year inspite of being similar status or even senior to the officer writing the ACR

5. MOD has all along maitained that rankpay will not be counted for determining status,pl read MOD's ID as below

MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
D(MS)
Subject : Status Equivalency between Service Officers and Scientist in DRDO
***
1. Reference minutes of the meeting held on 3-6-99 circulated vide MOD I.D. note No. 10417/RD/Pers-6/1115/D(MS)/99 dared 15-6-99
2. The matter with respect to status of Rank pay has since been resolved and it has been decided by the Government that the rank pay will be taken into account for determining the entitlement of the commissioned officers of the three services to financial benefits concessions etc including retirement benefits. However, the rank pay will not be taken into account for determining the status. Further action in the matter may be taken in accordingly.
Sd——
(A.K. Sethi)
Under Secretary (MS)
Chairman PPDC
FOR DRDO
Mod ID. No. 19(19)/99-D(MS), dated 4-5-2000

6.As regards MOD's stand in quoted case at CAT Jodhpur let me correct you MOD in its ID on the subject has clearly brought that SE is equivalent to col.Therefore pl donot misquote MOD

7. Is it not a fact that Brigadiers are going as Directors in DGQA,IDS which is a post teneble by civilian officer of scale 14300-18300.

8.Equavalency published by Govt of India between Army Officers and civilian officers in DAD has been quoted in outlook magzine recently.

9.All the equavalencies issued by Govt of India have been accepted by the armed forces for last 20-30 years so now why so halla gulla.

10.Warrent of precedence being quoted is for ceremonial purpose only and not for day to day functioning of government.

God bless and may people from armed forces keep their cool and not fall victim to propoganda based on twisted facts which is designed to malign the image of armed forces whom people of india love most

jai hind

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony 7.43 PM

Oh that was quite an info blast.
Allow me to answer you one by one :

1. Why don’t you also tell us that the CAT decision concerning BRO is already under Challenge in the High Court ? You thought we did not know it, right ?.

2. This blog is not competent to issue any kind of equivalence. The equivalence vis-à-vis MES officers IS in place my friend since long and I think you know it well. And according to that equivalence, an SE is listed with a Lt Col.

3. ON the contrary, I can post equivalence tables in other organizations which equate Majors and Lt Cols with Selection Grade/NFSG (14300-18300), would you like to see them ?. Well search the archives of this blog.

4. This blogger has very meticulously perused both ju’ments of CAT (Jodhpur as well as Chennai) and my friend your bubble would burst if these in their entirety are placed on this blog. Do you want this blog to be enlightened with the complete text of the ju’ments ?. And why on earth did MES officers not challenge these in the Hon’ble High Court ?

5. An Under Secretary dealing with DRDO sitting in a non-descript dark office somewhere has NO right to comment on validly promulgated recommendations of the pay commission approved by the Cabinet. And much water has flown down the bridge since these illegal letters. The MoD in another letter (2007) has confirmed that Rank Pay is to be added into basic for status purposes. Even Hon’ble Courts and CAT have held that Rank Pay is a part of basic pay. This Under Secretary is netiher above the Cabinet, nor above Hon’ble Courts.

6. Kindly post this non-existent MoD letter for the benefit of readers.

7. Is it not a fact that SAG officers (18400-22400) too are being empanelled as Directors in GoI ?

8. The said letter has been confirmed to be a non-existent fake. It’s existence has already been denied by the Cabinet Secretariat.

9. Such equivalence has never been accepted by the Armed Forces.

10. I agree with you but pray tell me then why has the WoP been accepted for the Jt Secy GoI – Maj Gen parity ?

God bless you too.
Thank You

Anonymous said...

@annony at 7:43...

u count ur % y r u getting involved in all this..BRO brother..i guess u r posted in DGBR..I M RIGHT NA..

Kaps said...

Dear anony at 7:43 PM. Maj Navdeep has already countered all your points very logically. How can a Undie Sec in DRDO decide and issue fatwa on rank pay? As far as Armed Forces are concerned, they have to go by MOD instructions and here is such excerpt

Merger of Rank Pay with the Pay Scales.
Keeping in view the difficulties being faced by the officers with regard to interpretation of Rank Pay, it is defined as follows:-

"Rank Pay is admissible to the Commissioned Officers of the three Services, holding their rank either in a substantive or acting capacity. It is that element of their pay identified with their Rank, which, in turn, has a relationship with their scale of pay. It is granted separately in recognition of the specific needs of their conditions of service and command structure. It will consequently be taken into account for determining their entitlement to such of those financial benefits, concessions, etc, including retirement benefits, as are directly related to the basic pay or their pay scales."

Auth :- Govt. of India MoD letter No 1(26)/97/I/D(Pay/Services) dated 29 Feb 2000.

This should clear all your and Mr Tirkey's doubt regarding rank pay.

Penmil said...

@anony October 24, 2008 2:55 PM.
There may be three ways of arguing this. The 5th CPC Scales were.... Lt. Colonel/ equ.13500-400-17100 +Rank Pay of 1600,Colonel/ equ. 15100-450-17350+Rank Pay of 2000 and Brigadier/ equ. 16700-450-18050+Rank Pay of 2400.
Now the 6th CPC PB4 with Grade Pay, Rs.8700 starts from the pre-revised pay scale of Rs.14300-18300.
There could be one line of argument that the Rank Pay is not to be counted as part of the Pay Scale, since it is always shown separately. In that case even the Brigadiers would be in PB3!
The second argument could be that the Rank Pay is an inseparable part and parcel of the Pay Scale, since it had been already promulgated twice, in the Special Army Instructions up to 2/S/98.In that case Lt Cols along with Cols and Brigs would be in PB4.
The third argument could be that the Rank Pay would be considered as a part of the Pay for deciding as to which Pay Band one fits into but will be subsumed( a term some times used in the government notifications) into the Grade Pay later on. In plain language that would mean the point at which Pay will be fitted will depend upon the 5th CPC Basic Pay alone multiplied by 1.86,and the Rank Pay element will disappear into the newly introduced Grade Pay. Again in this case the Lt Col will be in PB4, but all officers will lose an amount equal to their Rank Pay while being transfered from 5th CPC scales to 6th CPC.
I think it is the third kind of argument that was employed to deny arrears of Rank Pay, when Rank Pay was first carved out of the Revised Pay at the time of introduction the 4th CPC.

The government notification for Civil Services has illustrations for working out the new pay. But the notification for defence services does not have any.
What does SAI 2/S/08 say on how to work out the new pay?

Anonymous said...

@ all

read this to become wise...

link is : http://persmin.nic.in/dopt/4.1.html

4.5 In general, appointment of officers to a functional grade is by Selection as it involves promotion to a higher level of responsibility. On the other hand, appointment to the Non-Functional Selection Grade is by seniority subject of fitness. This is so because the purpose of introducing a non-functional Selection Grade is to mitigate the hardships caused to officers due to stagnation and no change of command is involved

IF THIS IS THE DEFINATION OF NFSG AS PER DOPT..THEN HOW COME THEY HAVE DENIED IT TO LT COL AND HOW COME THEY HAVE PLACE COLONELS THERE WHO R SELECTION GRADE...

Anonymous said...

As per fifth pay commission also Brigadier is equivalent to civilian Additional Chief Engineer
of MES.
(Please refer para 50.113 of fifth pay commission report.)

Sixth pay commission has given same status to both by giving same grade pay which the fifth pay commission has also held

Do anybody want to say that both the fifth and sixth pay commissions were fools?

Rohit said...

IMHO this statement/ definition/ clarification about Rank Pay is to make sure that Service officers use the existing basic pay less the rank pay to get to the figure to which the factor of 1.86 is to be multiplied with.

There should be no other implication as Rank Pay per se, no longer is a consideration in the 6CPC.

However can't put anything past our friends in the IAS ;)

Anonymous said...

SE is equivalent to Lt Col in MES??

500 Lt Cols are working as GE and DCWE and are reporting to civilian SE who is their boss as CWE

good way of twisting the facts for own's false satisfaction

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony 10.20PM

Yes, Lt Cols are working as DCWEs. But tell me can an SE write their ACRs ? You know the answer don't you.

Why are they working as DCWEs ?
You can get you answer from http://indianmilitarybenefits.blogspot.com/2008/09/lt-colonels-and-superintending.html

Though I personally feel that Lt Cols should never be posted as GEs or DCWEs since this gives IDSE offrs some additional masala to underline self created equivalence. If not satisfied with how the MoD or Army places you and if not satisfied with CAT orders, why don't you simply approach the High Court against CAT decision ?

Uday said...

@Maj navdeep reply to annony 7.43PM
Let me put certain facts for u to ponder upon maj navdeep
(1)Which CAT decision u r talking about ,BRO matter was heard and judged by Hon'ble High court Gauhati in the matter of WP(CIVIL)4989/2006 in the matter of SHEO BALAK SINGH Vs UOI and Ors ,not in any CAT ,u may see the judgement by refering the site of Hon;ble High court and update yourself withe Judgement.
EXTRACT OF THE JUDGEMENT
"In view of parity established for all purposes and not only for army act vide Gazette Notification no D L 33004/99T 12 FEB 2008 WP stands closed"

AS PER THIS GAZETTE NOTIFICATION PARITY IS AS UNDER
CE Maj Gen
SE(Functional Scale) Col
EE(NFSG) Lt Col
EE Maj
AEE CAP


For non implementation of the gazette and non compliance of Hon'ble High court order ,CP is being heard at Gauhati high court, Judgement is likely to be delivered soon.

2.Pl cite the existing Govt authority which lays parity bet MES offrs vis-à-vis Service offrs.On the contrary there are empteen no of equivalences issued by various ministries laying parity.In those Col has at the most been equated to Dir in some cases and in majority cases to Jt Dir. Col happily reporting to Dir in the scale of earlier 14300-18300.U may see the DGQA,Survey of India,AFHQCS,IDS,RAW,CGDA,Indian embassey etc
3.Pl quote org where Maj/Lt col equated to SG(14300-18300)sclae.Pl quote extant parity ,do not draw conclusions from deputation posts.
4.It will be worth culling info for all bloggers from CAT Jodhpur and Chennai orders .Pl put on the net and let it be read thread bare by all .Nevertheless an extract of Hon'ble CAT jodhpur is subjoined
"In this OA , a question is involved as to whether in the scheme of writing of ACRs, an officer working in a particular pay scale or grade , can act as a Reporting officer, of an officer working in the same or higher pay scale or grade".
Soon I will put the MoD's affidavit in the matter of Jodhpur CAT.

5.MoD has not issued any letter which lays Rank pay to added to BP for determining status.Only letter which is in force and lays down "that rank pay is not to be counted for determining status" uptill implementation of VICPC was Mod ID. No. 19(19)/99-D(MS), dated 4-5-2000.To conter pl produce auth
6.Empanelling of SAG offrs as Dir is happening in those cases of All India Services (IAS,IPS),who while working in state attain the SAG scale much earlier to stipulated period of 16 yrs.On empanelling to centre all offrs of All India Services are brought at Par.
7 (a)WoP is only for cermonial purposes not for day to day functioning of Govt offices.
(b) All SAG level offrs and Maj Gens have the same color of the pass issued by MoD.
8.Last but not the least Hon'ble Supreme Court has held in No of Judgements that appropriate auth to drcide Equivalence bet various cadres is experts like Pay commission ,none else.Which has been already decided in previous commissions and the current one as well.

Clarifications,if any, are welcome

Anonymous said...

I hope the fellows posted at IHQ are reading all this.

Anonymous said...

@Navdeep
I personally know at least 50 Lt Col who have served in MES and whose ACRs have been written by SEs. Do you want their names to be put on this Blog? Please dont try to mislead readers and carry forward utterly false propaganda in the hope of becoming mouthpiece of disgruntled Lt Cols who have missed their promotional boards.

Lt Col AM Khan the GRINDER said...

Those of you fighting within BSF /Army/Police need to read this:

By Abhinav Kumar
The writer is SP crime/law & order, Uttarakhand abhikr73@rediffmail.com

This year a cloud hung over Civil Services Day on April 21. The report of the 6th Pay Commission leading to an outcry across the spectrum of civil and military services at its IAS-centric world view has on the one hand raised a question mark over the role of the IAS as disinterested custodian of the Indian state, and on the other hand shown how far behind the times the civil services of India are.

Consider a simple statistic. In 1981, out of a total of 60-odd secretary-level posts in the Government of India, about 25 were occupied by non-IAS civil services. Now when the total number of such posts has gone up to about 250, (so much for liberalisation and getting the Government off our backs), the total number of such posts occupied by those not privileged to be the Brahmins of Bureaucracy has remained about the same. This tells us two things, the first that despite economic liberalisation, and the supposed deepening of grassroots politics through Panchayati Raj Institutions, the state continues to be the growing Big Brother in our political and economic life. And second, that the IAS has deftly used its proximity to the political bosses and monopoly of key posts in vital institutions to ruthlessly cement its position at the apex of the public services.

It remains a telling commentary on the quality of our public life that other than the uniformed services, the armed forces and the police, who for a change have shed their usual diffidence and misplaced sense of propriety and openly criticised the motives and method of the 6th CPC, there appears to be little discussion about the significance of the 6th CPC to the quality of India’s governance at a critical juncture. India today is poised on the verge of a social and economic transformation that if managed properly would propel it to the rank of great powers in the lifespan of a single generation. In the worldview of the 6th CPC, the IAS and the IAS alone has the wherewithal to take India to its tryst with destiny, never mind the fact that 60 years of the history of independent India suggest otherwise.

In its initial years, the IAS presented itself as the custodian of a nascent democracy. As the socialist experiment of Nehru gathered steam, it positioned itself as the instrument of planned development. With the coming of liberalisation in 1991, it has reinvented itself as the facilitator and regulator of the free economy. It seems that no matter what the needs of the times and irrespective of its patchy performance, the IAS is indispensable to the well being of the Indian nation.

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This is not to belittle the important contribution made by successive generations of IAS officers to the idea of India. But the 6th CPC has gone overboard in assessing the relative importance of this contribution. The fact remains that two of the most crucial failures of the state that have led to maximum violence and social unrest especially in rural India, namely the failure of our land records and land revenue administration and the delivery of welfare and developmental schemes, have been well protected turfs of the IAS.

Recently the Central IPS Association held an extraordinary meeting in New Delhi. Usually these are dreary affairs that attract scant attendance and little outside interest. This meeting was unusual. The usual sense of fortitude and forbearance that are perhaps the defining characteristics of the IPS were replaced by a sense of defiance and daring. There was talk of protest marches, en masse return of medals and decorations, civil and criminal action against individual members of the 6th CPC for their partisan working in leaking their deliberations in advance to benefit the IAS, but for the moment cooler counsel prevailed. Acknowledging the primacy of the political executive, the IPS officers resolved to request the government to set up a group of ministers to examine these recommendations afresh and restore the constitutional parity accorded to the All India Services in its original form. The government has responded by creating a Committee of Secretaries to look into these grievances. Given the overwhelming representation of one service in the composition of this committee — eight out of 13 belong to the IAS — the outcome of its disinterested deliberations would be anybody’s guess.

The debate over the 6th CPC is in a wider sense a debate over the direction and shape of the idea of India in the 21st century. Is India going to continue to entrust its future to a class of generalists whose primary and proven concern is ensuring their own primacy even at the cost of the national interest? Or will India recognise the need to broad base the talent utilised for policymaking? The British, whose blueprint we emulated at the time of Independence, have already moved far away from according primacy to a generalist civil service.

The Constitution of India was drafted by a group of well-educated, articulate men and women who had a keen sense of history, a deep appreciation of the grassroots realities and an innate sense of justice and fair play. They envisaged the civil services in general and the All India Services in particular, without any stratification and differentiation, as the primary custodians of their vision and the values underpinning it. The IAS and the IPS, as well as the other services, have fallen well short of these expectations.

By appropriating the Indian state as the plaything of the IAS, the 6th CPC seeks to undermine the very letter and spirit of the Constitution. If not corrected substantially, its recommendations are sure to weaken the fading sense of esprit de corps that must now more than ever bind all of India’s public servants together in a common purpose if we are to fulfil our destiny in the 21st century.

Anonymous said...

Tahnak You Grinder...

thank you very much for bringing to the notice of this well Meaning Community that there are still like minded people existing in this country... Alas No IAS has had courage to say something..Foreign Service has been very negetive...as expected.

"Gunge Nikal Pare Hain Juban Ki talsh men"...

By the way are you the good old Dhana type Grinder...then I am your Murid...from ff..

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony 11.24 PM 24th Oct

Such personal comments are not welcome on this blog. If you want to disagree, disagree with facts and logic like Uday @ 10.56.

This blog would remain independent in its views, even if it rubs civil or even military officers the wrong way.

If you do not desist from such personal comments, your posts shall be deleted.

It is funny though that it is only the officers serving in allied organizations who do not want military officers to be conferred their rightful dues.

Thank You.

Anonymous said...

I will request all non-service bloggers, specially, bloggers from mixed organisations to avoid commenting on this blog. You should learn something from the way IAS fraternity is behaving..not commenting at all...
Fortunately, either side knows the truth and more than them, the GOM.It is for them to adminiter justice. By giving vent to well placed/mis-placed feeling, we are doing no good to the cause.
More over if govt decides something not so convenient, do we have any choice but to accept it gracefully. Silver-lining is, atleast age-old confusion will be removed and then, we can co-exist peacefully in the presence of clear ruling on the subject....
BTW, SEs were given functional scale of director by fifth pay commission, they agree or not, this was a clear upgradation by govt. If similar upgradation is given to other side, we have to accept/lump it....
with best wishes...

A thoughtful man said...

I refer to the last para ie.."what 100% civ offrs get at 16yrs of service, only 1% offrs of defence officers get at 33 yrs of service". Who is to be blamed? The service chiefs only. Why can't we abolish all our ranks except the equivalents of IAS? Armed forces should then just say that give what IAS gets at every stage of service plus 10% ie..the difference that exists at the start of military career. So dismantle different promotion policy, proposals for pay commissions etc etc. As regards working level effect of restructuring of ranks vis-a-vis IAS; when bureaucrats can work with this arrangement then why cant armed forces? The service chiefs cant digest this proposal. So where fault lies? Forget the above, Armed forces deny their offrs even broadband telephone facility (except in Delhi area) even when govt sanction for this exists(I can say of Air Force for sure). so aren't service chiefs responsible for self demeaning decisions? My advice "just follow the Babus in pay and promotions". Keep intra-service ego aside.

Anonymous said...

thought ful man has very well said about the intra services ego. i would like to post the lastv paragraph of an article written by Adm AK Singh in IE a few days ago, I quote "The three wise ministers reviewing the armed forces' pay, may like to remember this letter written in 320 BC by Kautilya (author of Arthasashtra) to Emperor Chandra Gupta Maurya: "... My Lord, the day the Mauryan soldier has to demand his dues, or worse, plead for them, would neither have arrived overnight nor in vain. It will also bode ill for Magadha. For then, on that day, you my Lord, will have lost all moral sanction to be king! It will also be the beginning of the end of the Mauryan Empire!!"" So the three wise men, I pray, should remember history.

yogesh said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@ ALL

Personal comments are now being deleted.

Thank You.

Ajith said...

Another voice of support
From Mr Jaswant Singh, the leader of the opposition in Rajya Sabha as reported in 'The Hindu' on 24 Oct.

Special Correspondent
NewDelhi: Leader of the opposition in the Rajya Sabha Jaswant Singh on Thursday sought the Prime Minister's intervention to resolve the "great discontent" by the armed forces which was reflected in the services chiefs voicing their discontent in public.
"It is an unusual step," he said of the action by the service chiefs but felt the "unusual circumstances" compelled them to do so. "One of the most difficult questions to address honestly is why does a soldier, a sailor or an airman agree to die? Please, believe me, that the principal motivation is izzat(respect), and if you do not give izzat to the uniformed community, then you are robbing them of the central impulse of military morale," he cautioned.

Anonymous said...

Services has taken MES officer for a ride for more than 50 years.Thanks God pay commission has put exploitation of civilian engineers to an end by defining equivalancy based on GRADE PAY.Other wise equivalancy with different department was different.No protest were made by army against Audit because they know audit can squeeze ? Number of Govt letter refered above make thing crystel clear accept them with dignity other make your self liable to public scrutiny on topic like sahayak,sale of booz etc.Any way enjoy DIWALI

Anonymous said...

This is the recommendation of one of doctor who is recommending to see a movie to his freinds for what reason, please read

Dear Friends

First, a Happy Diwali to you all and also to
your loved ones !!

I saw 'Heroes' yesterday and liked it so much

that i guess it is worth recommending to even

those of us who don't frequent movie theatres

often.

The movie is about two Film-making students who choose

to make a film on 'Why one should not join the

Armed Forces' and unwinds beautifully .....

It is on what 'Garv' means to the Afsars and

Jawans and above them to their families...

A nice tribute to the Forces..

My Salutations to all our friends batchmates in

the 'Forces' .....

and in the end i would like to repeat what fauji

Vijaish would say - "Jai Hind" and "Vande

mataram"

and what's up guys ? What's the news ?

-mukesh bavishi

ahmedabad

Anonymous said...

Major navdeep you have done more harm to services as all Govt letter which were not available to many person are available now,and lot of public scuritiny is taking place.this is not in the intrest of services

Anonymous said...

IS CREATING AWARENESS MEANS HARM...THEN LET IT BE

Lt Col AM Khan the GRINDER said...

@ The Thoughful Man

While I sympathise with the anguish of Thoughtful Man and others, I cannot but forcefully denounce his spiteful approach. Whose cause are we espousing? Ours? Is it not on the common Indian citizen’s behalf that we take all our cudgels and even kill? Have we not found succour in this glorious mandate when distraught with seeing our comrades fall everyday?
Let’s be very clear on this – our organisational requirements (such as rank hierarchy) are unique. And the parity with non uniformed govt employees will be maintained.
It is a given that the Indian Armed Forces shall remain proud of being obedient to the govt of the day. But, but that does not absolve us from being accountable to the Indian People.
So, lets not think of cutting our nose to spite our face!

Anonymous said...

ARE THEY RECTIFYING THE ANNAMOLIES OR BARGAINGING WITH ARMED FORCES...THINK.....

To a query on the armed forces' grievances over the 6th Central Pay Commission (CPC) report, Antony said the three-member ministerial committee under his senior colleague Pranab Mukherjee was examining all issues raised by the tri-services and a solution would be found for them.

"The committee is under my senior colleague Pranab Mukherjee. We are trying to find and work out a solution. I am sure there will be a solution. Meanwhile, the services personnel would get their new packages," he said, referring to the armed forces agreeing to accept the new CPC scales "temporarily" till the pay issues were resolved.

Anonymous said...

@ thoughtfulman....

what r u recommending..lt col who was equal to NFSG till 5th CPC...

their promotion timings were made same..it was to ve parity and avoid stangnation...the same logic because of which NFSG exsists in IAS...look what have they done...

in the light of above i can just say...here the LOGIC HAS FAILED ONLY ONE POINT AGENDA IS THERE...PUT THE SERVICES DOWN...

SO IN THIS CASE UR SOLN IS ACTUALLY NO SOLUTION

prakash said...

Aesop's Fables
The Horse And His Rider
A HORSE SOLDIER took the utmost pains with his charger. As long as the war lasted, he looked upon him as his fellow-helper in all emergencies and fed him carefully with hay and corn. But when the war was over, he only allowed him chaff to eat and made him carry heavy loads of wood, subjecting him to much slavish drudgery and ill-treatment. War was again proclaimed, however, and when the trumpet summoned him to his standard, the Soldier put on his charger its military trappings, and mounted, being clad in his heavy coat of mail. The Horse fell down straightway under the weight, no longer equal to the burden, and said to his master, "You must now go to the war on foot, for you have transformed me from a Horse into a Donkey; and how can you expect that I can again turn in a moment from a Donkey to a Horse?'

prakash said...

Aesop's Fables
The Wolf And The Lamb
A wolf met a lamb that had walked away from the other sheep in the fold. He told the lamb that he wouldn't hurt him. Secretly though, he planned to eat the lamb! But first he needed to find a good reason for eating the lamb.

So he said to the lamb, "Sir, last year you rudely insulted me."

"I don't think that's possible," bleated the lamb in a sad voice, "I was not even born then."

So the wolf then said, "You eat the grass in my field."

"No, good sir," replied the lamb, "I have not yet tasted grass."

The wolf tried again. "You drink the water in my well," he growled.

"No!" exclaimed the lamb,"I never drank your water because my mother's milk is both food and drink to me."

Suddenly the wolf jumped on the lamb and ate him up, saying, "Well! I won't be hungry even though you argue against every one of my reasons for eating you."

Moral: The tyrant will always find a reason for his tyranny.


NO PRIZE FOR GUESSING THIGS RIGHT

devendra said...

Maj navdeep ,Please reply the point raised by uday
a)whether a gazette notification of bro exist or not
b)whether it is true or not that a cntempt of court has beenfiled or not
c)If gazette notification is not honoured by Army then it is challange to govt or not
d) who is heading the BRO why he has not obeyed the gazette notification

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Devendra

Neither you are an RTI Applicant nor am I a Public Authority that I'm bound to answer you.
Nevertheless, this is my opinion on your 'queries' :-

a) The gazette notification for BRO is only limited to powers under the Army Act. Read Section 4 of the AA and you'll get your answer.

b) How am I supposed to know ? Am I supposed to know about every single contempt case filed in the country ?

c) That may be your perception but unfortunately the govt does not work on your perception Devendra.

d) I'm not here to answer GK queries. Go to Seema Sadak Bhawan and find out :-)

Thanks

Anonymous said...

@Navdeep

Sir that is why we love you so much. That was too good (Rolling in laughter)

@Devendra

Go suck an egg now.

wind_swept said...

@ navdeep
wonderful to see your posts (replies) for the day...

please also comment on this :-

pl read this article onwebsite"

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0507/050307b2.htm

"Lawmaker backs pay parity, 3.5 percent raise for 2008"

By Brittany R. Ballenstedt

The ranking Republican on the House Oversight and government Reform Committee on Thursday urged House appropriators to ensure parity in 2008 pay adjustments for civilian federal workers and members of the military.
In a letter to leaders of the House Appropriations Committee, Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., argued that the military services and the government's civilian employees work hard to provide protection to Americans, warranting an equal pay increase for the coming year.
The move comes a day after a House Armed Services subcommittee approved a 3.5 percent pay increase for military personnel as part of the fiscal 2008 Defense authorization bill. "I believe it is critical civilian personnel receive a similar increase," Davis said.
He noted that the Bush administration's 2008 budget proposal marks the second consecutive year the president has recognized the importance of pay parity between military and civilian employees. In nearly every year over the last two decades, Congress has provided identical pay adjustments to the two groups, he said.
"I firmly believe it is imperative to continue this tradition," Davis said, "not only to ensure pay parity between military and civilian employees, but to address, to the extent we can, the vast gap between public and private sector wages."
He cited Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that private sector employees earn at least 30 percent more than their public sector civilian counterparts and 10 percent more than their counterparts in the military.
Davis noted that ensuring competitive pay for both military and civilian personnel will give the government an edge in recruiting and retaining top talent. "The federal government may never be able to compete with the private sector, dollar for dollar," he said, "but we must ensure that we do not fall further behind in the battle for talent.""


now look at ourselves


regards

wind_Swept said...

pl read this article on website
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0507/050307b2.htm

wind_swept said...

DGBR

Lieutenant General

AK Nanda

from here http://www.bro.nic.in/dgmessage.asp

manoj said...

1. one blogger with name wind_swept has recently put US link “Lawmaker backs pay parity, 3.5 percent raise for 2008”

2. Even our lawmakers have given parity to armed forces vis-a-vis civilians through sixth pay commission . Highest law protecting institution of our country that is Hon. Supreme Court of India in case of J P CHAURASIA & OTHERS VS Govt ( date of judgement 27 sep 1988),Pradip kr Dey vs union of india ( date of judgement 9 nov 2000), Indulal & others vs union of India (date of judgement 29 april 2002) has held that

"The equation of posts or equation of pay must be determined by expert bodies like PAY COMMISSION. They would be best judge to evaluate the nature of duties and responsibilities of posts. The pay commission ,which goes into the problem at great depth and happens to have a full picture before it, is the proper authority to decide upon this issue."

3. As per para 2.3.13 on page no. 77 of sixth pay commission report Defence forces have demanded parity with civilian posts and grant of MSP.
Sixth pay commiission has accepted their demand of MSP and also has clearly defined the parity with civilian on grade pay basis. The pay commission in para 2.3.13 has clearly written that "Status of the Defence forces officers would be determined by the grade pay attached to their post as is the case with civilian. GOVT HAS ALSO ACCEPTED BOTH THESE RECOMMENDATIONS OF PAY COMMISSION WITHOUT ANY CHANGE.

4. Defence forces have declined to accept the cabinet decision which in turn may amount to declining to accept even Hon Supreme Court rulings.

5. Not a healthy trend for the country.

Anonymous said...

Mr Manoj Thanks
1. Now read the fundamental right " Equal work equal pay". And cases related to it.
2. Read 12 report of Parliament committee on defence avilable on Loksabha net
3.Read the Cabinet Comittee decisions para 12 about doctors
4. Once agian read the Sixth pay comission report particluraly edge in defence forces
Now answer
Was there edge to the doctors in fifth pay comissio?
Is the same edge continued?
When CGHS doctor reach grade Pay 7600, 8700, 10000/- When the AFMS doctor reach corrosponding grade.
Fundamental right of Equal work Equalpay is more important my dear!

devendra said...

MajNavdeep It is very difficult to answer specific question because you can not fool around.The equivalancy is well set. let me tell you even Hon supreme cort in one of judgement has stated that Pay commission is right authority to decide equvalancy.Now the pay commission has decided,so accept it gracefully

Anonymous said...

Why do I still serve India ?
By
An anonymous soldier
______________________
This poem has been composed by a fourth generation, 24-year old career officer in the Indian Armed Forces, spurred by the report of the Sixth Pay Commission and an insensitive article written by a 'respectable' denizen of the country in a national daily on the armed forces and the pertinence of the Sixth Pay Commission therein. This free-flowing verse has not been edited; it's to ensure that the originality of the angst is maintained. After all, when you are in pain, the language of expression is the last thing in your mind “How you play with us, did you ever see?
At Seven, I had decided what I wanted to be;
I would serve you to the end,
All these boundaries I would defend. Now you make me look like a fool,
When at Seventeen and just out of school;
Went to the place where they made "men out of boys"
Lived a tough life …sacrificed a few joys… In those days, I would see my 'civilian' friends,
Living a life with the fashion trends;
Enjoying their so called "College Days"
While I sweated and bled in the sun and haze…
But I never thought twice about what where or why
All I knew was when the time came, I'd be ready to do or die.At 21 and with my commission in hand,
Under the glory of the parade and the band,
I took the oath to protect you over land, air or sea,
And make the supreme sacrifice when the need came to be.I stood there with a sense of recognition,
But on that day I never had the premonition,
that when the time came to give me my due,
You'd just say," What is so great that you do?"Long back you promised a well to do life;
And when I'm away, take care of my wife.
You came and saw the hardships I live through,
And I saw you make a note or two,
And I hoped you would realise the worth of me;
but now I know you'll never be able to see,
Because you only see the glorified life of mine,
Did you see the place where death looms all the time?
Did you meet the man standing guard in the snow?
The name of his newborn he does not know...
Did you meet the man whose father breathed his last?
While the sailor patrolled our seas so vast?You still know I'll not be the one to raise my voice
I will stand tall and protect you in Punjab Himachal and Thois. But that's just me you have in the sun and rain,
For now at Twenty Four, you make me think again;
About the decision I made, Seven years back;
Should I have chosen another life, some other track? Will I tell my son to follow my lead?
Will I tell my son, you'll get all that you need?
This is the country you will serve
This country will give you all that you deserve? I heard you tell the world " India is shining"
I told my men, that's a reason for us to be smiling
This is the India you and I will defend!
But tell me how long will you be able to pretend?
You go on promise all that you may,
But it's the souls of your own men you betray.Did you read how some of our eminent citizens
Write about me and ridicule my very existence?
I ask you to please come and see what I do,
Come and have a look at what I go through
Live my life just for a day
Maybe you'll have something else to say?I will still risk my life without a sigh
To keep your flag flying high
but today I ask myself a question or two…
Oh India …. Why do I still serve you?

Anonymous said...

@Devendra

Maj Navdeep has all rights to accept your views or not

But I have all objections to your contentions .

Pay Commission decides on equivalency for "pay" and not Precedences. That is decided by Presidents Secretariat and Ministry responsible for laying down the Precedences is Home Ministry as per Conduct of business rules and Table of Division of Work of the Govt of India.

You must understand that payment to the Govt servant is made based on many principles and not necessarily equivalence. It also includes Cadre management constraints and welfare measure such as need for progression and pensionary benefits.

An IAS officer being paid by Govt of India equivalent to JS / SAG but posted a Leather Factory or Sugar Mills is not JS and eligible for Standing next to Maj Gen.

Maj Gen is a State Symbol and so is IAS officers appointed as JS. SAG is is a payment grade and not a Symbol for Govt of India not being an appointment.

Preindepence Order of Precedences were bench marked on Military Ranks being the State Symbols of the highest Order and First Class Civilian Officers of 28 years years of Service Could stand next to Maj Gen. Not now as it has been been altered wef 1952 in favor of IAS appointments and State Symbols bearing officers are Second Class citizens. That is the meaning the Nehruvian Bureacracy derives out of "civilian Suprmacy" where some "sarvants" are higher than the peoples representatives without bearing or being State Symbols.

SAG sahab maan bhi jao..SAG is a pay grade and not appointment. Sag may be appointed as a director but director have no precedence. For any function SAG is not appointment and even a peon can stand next to him. He he can not object to it.

If pay was important then Ambani would stand over the President.


But I agree with your contention partially and feel that precedence need to be decided legislatively and by Parliament rather then by IAS. That is only way IAS will be under the District Panchayat President. He has no business lording over the Districts. I have decided to contest that lower level election and start hitting from there upward. Bureaucrats are never the State Symbols and benchmarks for any Country. They are servants. Army service is not considered as "Servants" in any country or society except for India. This lordship of "Servants" needs to be done away with in a Democratic Society.

Anonymous said...

Okay, People. First, I'd like to congratulate Major Navdeep for this excellent forum. Second, guys, please lay off personal commentsa nd sniping. Third, the solution is not to hide information but to make it available so that when a jackass tries to pull a fast one, you are prepared. It also warns the other chap that this is public info and cannot be swept under the carpet. Next, I really do not think that forming an Armed Forces Officers' Association is either feasible or desirable. After all, the only thing that distinguishes us from the rabble(including, unfortunately, our 'masters' - the IAS) is our lack of polarization on political/religious/regional grounds. An association will introduce the same filth in our rank and file. At the risk of sounding like a wooly-headed, 'head-in-the-clouds' kind of idealist, I still feel that the Armed Forces should continue to serve the nation and its elected Government impartially. Notwithstanding the fact that a large majority of them are criminals or, at best, hooligans whom i wouldn't trust as far as I could throw a whale by the tail.
As far as the IAS mafia is concerned, I am surprised at your surprise. When was it not so? Don't you guys read history? The IAS has had a fear indoctrinated into them from the first - if you don't control them and keep them under hard-hold, they'll carry out a coup and take over the country. We can thank that miserable philanderer Nehru and that certifiable moron Krishna Menon for raising this bogey. this pair, to gloss over their ill-thought misadventures during the Chinese debacle, threw up this googly. Not that it would be a very bad thing, mind you - compared to this bunch of self-seekers, the Armed Forces would be able to do a better job - but in the short-term ONLY. (Let the brick-bats FLY!!!)
No! Seriously, the Armed Forces are designed to win a war and not to rule. And this was adequately demonstrated by General Raina when he was asked by Mrs. Gandhi to take over the country (1977). He refused!! Not because he was incapable or not competent but his reasons were two-fold : First, please clean up with your own hands the shit you have created and Second, the Armed Forces will lose focus doing their primary job. So, all these ball-less wonders can stop being scared that their jobs will be taken up by the Armed Forces. Thank you, but no thanks - I already have a dirty job and don't require any more crap!
That said, I will blame ourselves for this confusion - why are we going on screaming the place down for pay and parity ? Instead, as I read on one of the blogs here by a senior retired officer, let us push for our own representatives in Parliament. When an MP tell an IAS officer to do something, he bloody well will! So let us start thinking along those lines.
Second, let us work out and get approved a workable and convenient scheme for exercising our franchise. After all, just because I have donned a uniform, doesn't mean I cease to be a member of society. If there are rules against Armed Forces officers forming associations and unions, should not the same model code be applied to the IAS and the IPS? Are they the down-trodden that they need the confort of numbers? Or is it their sense of inadequacy ?
So, guys, keep cool - once we have accepted PB3, we are left at the mercy of a rapacious bureaucracy and an indifferent polity . Whether they implement PB4 or not, one thing is clear - that the rules, regulations and restrictions are for the Armed Forces since we are bound by honour - a concept which is alien to those who profess to rule us.
Jai Hind!

Anonymous said...

I think the country remembers its armed forces only during a war or floods.Lets fight with someone.anyone,to remind these bureaucrats and especially the Politicians that we exist and u exist because of us.Stop this now or else this country will have a pay a heavy price in the long run.Bureaucrats are not answerable to anyone - a system they have made for themselves- but Politicians -come on get up - u r answerable to the nation.

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous @October 28, 2008 1:34 PM

I'm sorry I didi not read this poem earlier. It's a beautiful piece of work. Not only does it highlight the angst, for me, it also higlights why we bleed for this nation of ours. Notwithstanding a malicious burueacracy and an indifferent and callous polity, I still feel proud to shed blood - mine and the enemy's - for the people who make up this country. The simple man-on-the-street who just wants peace to live his life is the reason why you and I put ourselves first in harm's way. Let's hope the people who take decisions on our future can get their collective head out of their collective ass, wake up and smell the coffee. The time for this skulduggery is over and it is time you realised it. Do not place the Armed Forces in an unteneable situation - they are all that stand between you and an implacable enemy - one who hates your very existence. Just remember 1962 - it was this low, shady mentality which sacrificed thousands of soldiers (incidentally, they also were someone's sons, brothers, husbands and father - like you) to the hare-brained schemes of a coward. None of those doomed men refused to fight - THAT is discipline and committment. If they are standing up now, it should be amply clear that the limit has been crossed - be warned.
jai Hind