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Monday, December 21, 2009

The elusive solution !!! Where is it ?

When I wrote about the new stipulation for promotion to SAG and HAG on the civil side, as recently conveyed to all Ministries by the DoPT, many had rued that all civil servants would now reach the grade pay of Maj Gen in 17 years of service. This is a misconception. The service postulated by the DoPT is the minimum required service for promotion to these grades and does not mean that officers would be automatically placed in the SAG on completing 17 years in their respective services. On a similar note, the defence services also have minimum prescribed limits for military ranks which are 15, 23, 25 and 28 years for Cols, Brigs, Maj Gens, Lt Gens / Army Cdrs respectively and 12, 20 and 25 years for Acting Brigs, Maj Gens and Lt Gens. But this of course does not translate into promotions on reaching such prescribed service limits. Have you heard of an officer becoming a Brig in 12 years ?. Same would remain the case with the civil services. Any blind emulation of the civil system of rank progression as it is cannot be implemented in the defence services. We cannot have all defence officers promoted as Maj Generals after 17 years of service, can we ? In my humble opinion, though many readers of this blog differ with me on this, the rank of Time Scale Col @ 18 years of service is also not a desirable option. One just cannot have all officers with 18 years behind them sporting red georgette (gorget) patches on their collars. This does not go with the command and control scheme of any defence service and neither has been implemented in any part of the world. Reducing the current time-frame of 26 years to about 21-23 years for officers who are not able to make it to the selection grade of Col may be a more practical solution.

However, again I would say that the best way out of this would be to de-link pay progression from military ranks. Readers may like to view this earlier post on the issue. And this one too.

48 comments:

ANUPAM said...

Remember the Pre AV Singh commission time and the immediate post AV Singh implementation time when few senior lot used to crib,the younger lot used to cherish.....and see the time today after a considerable gap of implementation....things have settled for good fortunately..no one minds that shuffle....but it will not be the same when you play or shuffle with the Red tab ranks...few REDs will grrrrr!!!!.....does any one know abt other countries...what follows there?

Anonymous said...

MAJ NAVDEEP,

I THINK U HAVE LOST IT THERE.. UR COMMENT THAT TOO MANY RED TABS .....IS AN UNFORTUNATE COMMENT BECAUSE IT IS THAT INWARD LOOKING ATTITUDE OF OURS THAT IS BEING EXPLOITED BY THE POWER AND RANK HUNGRY CIVILIAN LOT.
WE ARE AT AN IMPASSE BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE FAUJI BRASS WILL AGREE TO EARLIER PROMOTIONS AND NO WAY THAT THE BEAUREUCRAT WILL ACCEPT THE DE-LINKING OF RANK AND PAY FOR FAUJIS. THAT IS THE VERY LINK THAT ENABLES A JT SECY TO BE EQUATED WITH A MAJ GEN.
DO THINK AGAIN.
YOU, ARE AFTER ALL, OUR ONLY HOPE IN THESE MATTERS

Kaushal said...

The issue of parity in pay and status between the armed forces and the civilian services is far more complex and nuanced and even the present suggestion by Navdeep actually has a lot going against it. Would it be fair to pay two officer the same based on number of years of service irrespective of the responsibilities?

As it is, let us accept, a large number of aalowances that were job related have been converted into cadre related. Otherwise why should a pilot, flying a desk, get the flying pay or a submariner the subamrine pay!! Or Admirals and Air Marshalls and Generals getting these allowances when they are never doing the job even for a week in a year for which they are ensuring they get paid!!!I for one do not see any justification. It is time that the armed forces do a introspection and try to get the senior ranks out of the way. Another concession that needs to be looked at rations for Generals and above in the three servcies. If I recall right, the rations for officers were started because it was found that a number of accidents could be trace to inadequate food the officers were able to buy from their salaries. The rations, as were flying/submarine pay etc. were limited to the offciers at the levels of Brigs and below in the three services because these the were the highest ranks at which guys who were actually serving in units and performing missions. Somewhere down the line, the senior ranks were ablr to appropriate these for themselves as well aided and abetted by civil services and politicians to make senior guys a little more 'realistic'.

I am convinced that the way is not equal pay for equal years of service but for compensation to be worked out in a manner that services do not get left out of the way they are presently.

One of the ways could be to provide them higher pensions and severance package. Equal pay for unequal work is a bad concept to agree by any administration and hopefully the Babus do not hijack it for their own purposes as they have done with everything for the past 60 odd years.

Kaps said...

I agree that Col @18 is not a practical and viable option. At the same time, time gap from 13-26 is too long. This needs to be shortened in a practical manner. Defence Officers spend four or five years between two consecutive ranks. There is no reason why similar period should not be in force after the LtCol and equivalent rank. Select list being moved to 18-19 yrs is a good idea and the rest must be brought at par at 21 maximum.

ranjit said...

Yes I could not agree more on the issue. The correct service for TS Col should not be less than 22 yrs in any case. It would otherwise have a detrimental effect on motivation of younger officers to work hard and may be study for courses like DSSC, and to take up high pressure appointments like BM/AQ etc.

Anonymous said...

Well the point is if any single indl makes it in 17 years for whatever peculiar reason,won't it open the floodgates of SAG grade pay in 19 yrs service for all organised Gp A employees under the non functional financial upgradation scheme even though it may be non-functional entitling them to all perks and privileges applicable to that grade pay. Not a happy situation for defence services to be in.

Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeep,

IS ANYONE WHO MATTER LISTENING TO WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN SUGGESTING?????????WHAT U HAVE SUGGESTED IS THE RIGHT WAY OUT......BUT UNLESS SOMEONE DOES SOMETHING WHAT TO DO?

SATTY'S CORNER said...

We need to take a holoistic approach to our rank based promotion structure.Even if we wish we cannot get rid of it.Nor is worth comparing with any civil service.You can't expect bns to be commanded by Maj Gen's at 17 yrs service.The rank based hierarchy has to stay.Every officer must be able to reach a certain rank before retirement. Could be by selection or by grant of NFFU during the last 10 months so that he gets the pension of BRIG at least. Brigs unable to become Maj Gen should be given NFFU and pension of Maj Gen.Something can be worked on these lines.
Coming to the issue of too many red tabs!Start red tabs from Brig onwards and for Col only when commanding the Bn. Any takers?

MM said...

A minor quibble you will permit, i hope :-
gorget ,not georgette , please.

The former is derived from gorget = throat ;the latter is a light silk -like fabric.

Anonymous said...

@Kaushal.

The only sensible post thus far. It is unrealistic to expect equal pay for equal years of service without any consideration for type of work. At the same time, higher compenastory severance package and higher pensions, whilst completely valid and having my whole hearted support, go only that far in addressing the problem. Thus I feel that the following may also be considered

1. Graded compensation for fatalities suffered in service-highest for the young.
2. Allowances to be much higher but for jobs actually performed and not for-as Kaushal puts it-flying/sailing a desk to not only provide a higher compensation to personnel on riskier assignments but also to reduce the gap in the overall compensation package.
3. Much higher militray service pay that rises with rank upto Brigadier and then stagnates for reasons that have already been adequately addressed elsewhere in this thread.

Finally, it must be admitted that abobe does not claim to be THE SOLUTION but is only a suggestion in recognition of the fact that the military service in this country is inadequately rewarded, economically and in socially meaningful manner and that most other solutions on the blog are regrettably unworkable and therefore remain useless.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@MM

Sir, actually it is Georgette patch.

It refers to the red fabric on which oak leaves are placed. And that is the correct technical name for our red collars.

However, the 'throat' bit is nice, in pun of course. :-)

Doctor said...

Dear Navdeep,
I think MM is correct. The correct terminology appears to be Gorget. I must admit I always thought they were called "Collar tabs". However after MM's comments and your reply I did some "googling".Wikipedia has a page on Gorget which pretty much seems to confirm what MM is saying.
Of course, it is possible that both terminologies are correct.
Pardon my quibbling.
Regards.

Maj Arjun said...

at Maj Navdeep,the collar tabs are actually Gorget patches(as derived from throat covering armour of the same name).Georgette has nothing to do with military uniforms.

Mangusta said...

@Navdeep

I'm afraid MM is spot on.
Gorget was that part of personal armour that protected the neck. The gorget patch is thus the vestigeal representation of that medieval piece of personal armour. The colourful throats of some birds are also referred to as gorget.

And, its a overwhelmingly common mistake to mispronounce it with a 'j' rather than the correct 'g'.

Now, georgette is something you give to the wife. She would be happy with the gorget patch too, you know.
Gorge on that!
Just quibling.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@MM & Others

Absolutely right. Wiki calls it gorget patch - this has to be right then.

The Punjab Police Rules, 1937, refer to these as georgette patches, don't know how they goofed up.

Anonymous said...

i ve heard that the CSD would stop supplying cars wef 15 JAN...is there any substance in this rumour?????

Rajababu said...

Navdeep'

probably i am not reading all ur earlier blogs avidly thats the reason for me not being aware of the pay scales elucidated by you and BC. but i feel that knowing the pyramidal structure of the armed forces a 18 yr col will be advt as well as disadvt. advt cos of career progression, only carrer offrs getting command of a unit/formations etc. disadvt is that there will be too many wearing the red tabs(georgette or gorget how does it matter as long as the matter is conveyed) but dont u feel that people will gradually get used to it?

by the way one rank differential pay structure is defnitely viable this would be akin to MACPS for civilian staff.

i dont know why the fellow bloggers are not enthusiastic about this scheme

pawan said...

My dear friends,
None of what each one of you has suggested will ever be a happy solution since it is bound to get compared with the civil grades and status.
We all know very well the criteria or the way at least 50% of all officers both in military or civil get their promotions.
The whole system has been badly poluted. Any efforts to stifle the officers of armed forces promotions or pay may not be a very good idea in the long run.

Anonymous said...

NOTWITHSTANDING ALL THE ABOVE COMMENTS I THINK THAT THE CORE ISSUE IS THE LOW PROMOTION PERCENTAGE IN THE ARMED FORCES.
IT IS THIS FACTOR THAT AFFECTS US ALL AND CAUSES STAGNATION.

IF WE CANT GET ASSURED CAREER PROGRESSION TILL 60 YRS OF AGE THEN WE MUST SEEK (AND GET) COL TS AT 20, BRIG TS AT 27.

Anonymous said...

It is strange that in contemplating our rank structures we are following the dictum of "Tail wagging the Dog". It is not only the fat pay but people have started demanding gorgets without being fit to get into that tight spot.

It is also strange that in spite of all of us entering the service with an aspiration to put on red tabs call names to "red tab wallas" while sweating to become one.

Most strangest thing is that instead of espousing professionalism, competitive spirit, excellence in work and pride, we seem to be falling in that false logic of IAS superiority which claims life long excellence and progression upto secretary based on one examination only.

Can we do that? Can all of us claim to be chief simply because one is commissioned in the Armed Forces ? We have different conditions of service and others have theirs.

Financial well being, motivation, necessities of retention in service and Pay progression should not be equated with competence and organisational requirements. Therefore, Pay progression should be the key issue and not proliferation of rank structures beyond acceptable levels, that is AVS-II.

What we need now is young Brigadiers and long tenure Maj Gens.

Anonymous said...

Sir,
I consider the issue as one between rank performers and non-rank performers. And our selection boards result in officers being empanelled/non-empanalled to the available vacancies. It is also a fact that there are no Unfit officers.
Factually true is that merit is relative to the vacancies available and not across boards/years. Therefore the unstated argument that meritorious officers get empanelled and the rest have insufficient merit is incorrect.
Not to state the obvious, it is suggested that Lt col and Brig be treated as NFSG ranks and the Selection boards award empanelled, and in addition, fit for NFSG rank for officers fitting the acceptable merit, which can be uniform across boards/years.

Anonymous said...

all

We seem to be too good in getting entangled in our own myopic thinking. Ranks have to be de-linked from the pay. This is the very basis through which equivalence in pay and grade pay can be achieved. Ranks are mandatory in army and therefore special compensation needs to be given to higher ranks. Rest all should follow the civilian group A officers. Why can not we also relate our NFSG to civ IAS. once for all, all problems will be over. In addn, ranks can continue as hithertofore.

FIGHTER said...

yes delinking pay progression from
ranks shall be most suitable solution, though not an ideal one .

if in the civil it can be implemented then why not in army .

but problem is that first army will ask higher pay , then pay parity with civil on the basis of higher pay .

u can not eat it and the same time
have it .

my sincere suggestion is that let a separate pay commission for army decide the issue .
till then let us engage in productive works and not waste time reading and writing blogs .

ha ah

Anonymous said...

LOOK WITH OPEN-MINDED APPROACH AND THE WAY THINGS ARE IN THE COUNTRY ;OTHER GP A/CL-1 services. ARMED FORCES CANNOT (indian citizens) BE TREATED IN DIFFERENT WAY.THEREFORE-
1.delink pay from rank.
2.what is so great about gorgets/ tabs?????? every one in some foreign armies wears them.
3.in USA a sgt gets higher pay than an officer.thus an officer with more svc can get higher pay than an officer of higher rk with less svc.
4.NFFG has to be in AF,otherwise the AF and the country has to live with deficiencies and poor quality intake.
5.retaining officers with no avenues of progression ,keep using them as bonded labour is inhuman and crime.release them with an offer of a reasonable package ; yes they were duly inducted with all those high QRs and they maintain profile of fitness and efficiancy.they should not be used as rk fodder to service the rank structure.

Pawan said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,

TOO MANY RED TABS is definitely sad but it must be viewed and evaluated based on the dynamics around you to realize that it is necessary.
The rules of the game have been set by the Politicians and the IAS.
The has to be played and must be played as per the new rules framed.
NO ONE SHOULD GRUDGE THE INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF RED TABS NOW.

KRoy said...

Compare the increase of so called collar tabs -just verify with Coast Guard ,now even Commandant puts it with GP Rs 8700.If history is checked Commandants were junior by one increment till 4 th Pay commission with Lt Cdr of Navy basic pay (Rs 3600 +Rs 600=Rs 4200) and Commandants basic was Rs 4100.In 5th Pay Commission Commandants basic was Rs 14300 and was compared with Cdr whose basic was Rs 13500+Rs 1600 Rank pay=Rs 15100.Now in 6th pay commission Commandants Grade Pay has become Rs 8700 and now equated with Capt in Navy with Grade Pay Rs 8700.
Such glaring disparity will definitely effect operations where various inter services joint operations are conducted.
Solution is to bring back parity even if that means more collar tabs officer in services.We should not only see intra organizaion fall out etc,we need to take holistic view as well -what is external environment vis a vis where we are placed.If today this cadre review correction is not done than in future will come Mag Gen and higher ups may be equated with say Commandant etc as the trend going. We should not live in well only,need to study macro environment as well to be in high morale .We need to be open and ready for changes as todays buzz word is innovation and managing changes.

SK said...

If we want to remain combat ready, let's not have anymore upgradation of ranks. In fact, in a few years, we will possibly have to accept reducing the flab gathering on top. If you havn't made it, just go out and be happy. There is enough opportunity for the brave to do so.
Brig SK Chatterji

kopterkojak said...

Damm good wk navdip.got yrs thru col HS"Harry "Ahuja.The yard stick for parity must be fine tuned.I understand my old schoolmate(Cottons)Gen"Timmy" never bent on this issue.(Read also spies in the mountains).In my dads ww2 time, rapid acting ranks were done when req.in 1991-92 when on the faculty of the NDC i saw an amazing thing.The seniormost was a 28 yrs Air Cmde.next Brig with 25 or 24 yrs.next commodore 21 yrs.ALL OTHERS were max 18 yrs incl me as a faculty wg cdr.Ifs, Ias, ips and obscure audit etc services, rly board lady etc.Angle for parity at the NDC.regards kojak(Wg Cdr KJ"Kojak"Bhatt(Visit at Youtube.com/kopterkojak for my music incl soldier.)

kopterkojak said...

email comments.kojak

Anonymous said...

IT IS INCREDIBLE TO SEE THAT THERE ARE OPPONENTS TO THE "PARITY SEEKERS". AND THAT INCLUDES MAJ NAVDEEP. AS BROUGHT OUT BY kroy, THE COAST GUARD COMMANDANTS WHO WERE EARLIER BELOW MAJORS IN PAY ARE NOW ON PARITY WITH FULL COLS IN GRADE PAY OF 8700.

THERE IS NO WAY THAT RANK WILL BE DE-LINKED FROM PAY / GRADE PAY AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO LOSE OUT TO EVERY SERVICE WITH EVERY PAY COMMISSION.

THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE BUT TO PROMOTE OFFICERS TO COLONEL AND BRIGADIER ON A REDUCED TIME BASIS LIKE 18-19 AND 24-25 FOR BRIGADIER. SELECTION CAN BE DONE FROM THESE COLONELS AND BRIGS FOR OPERATIONAL APPOINTMENTS / COURSES WHICH WILL CLEAR THEIR WAY FOR FURTHER PROMOTIONS.

WE MUST QUICKLY SHED THIS TIGHT ASSED APPROACH OF CLAIMING TO BE THE PRESERVERS OF GORGET PURITY. NO CIVILIAN CARES ABOUT THE GARNISHES ON YOUR UNIFORM AND BRAIDS ON UR CAPS. THEY ARE QUICK TO CLAIM THAT THEY'RE GP IS HIGHER AND HENCE THEY ARE SENIOR. THIS IS AN EVERYDAY HAPPENING. ONE LOOK AT THE ESTATES POLICY OF ALLOTMENT OF HOUSE TELLS ALL.
ONLY A MAJ GEN AND ABOVE (GP OF Rs 10,000/) CAN GET TYPE VI ACCOMODATION WHICH A LT COL OF BASIC PAY OF 18,000 AND ABOVE USED TO GET.

Anonymous said...

KRoy said

"Now in 6th pay commission Commandants Grade Pay has become Rs 8700 and now equated with Capt in Navy with Grade Pay Rs 8700."

We can actually rejoice now that CG intake is higher than the Naval intake. 78 guys in the last batch. Nation's youth knows where the money, pride and honor lies.

Anonymous said...

Dear All,

We all join the Services for reasons including for the glamour of the Uniform and that of Gorgets.

Alas, The Police forces have reduced the glamour of uniform and Tabs to rubbles. They jeliously and unmindfully put the tabs, stars and Georgets (silk) on every ones throat.

The condition of status by the Pay was thrust on the systems by IAS as they had very fast grade / appontment progression. That led the Police services also to achive similar rank / grade progression and equate themselves with Generals.

These two so called elite services (IAS and IPS) have pushed every other down in their blind elitist competition with IAS emerging as winner, IPS running behind and all others after them.

It becomes essential for the second runger IPS and IFS (Foreign Service)to stay at second postion for which they per force need to push Armed Forces much down and satisfy their "staus needs" and enjoy the sadistic pleasure.

In this elitist competition, essentially "Indian" in nature and essence, Armed Forces have lost out as the Armed Forces are not Political Instruments like IAS and IPS. They are not Finacial instrument. And alas! who cares for the populace, the country and security. The permanent institutions (IAS, IFS and IPS) are busy pulling down their own Armed Forces in blind rage to satisfy their hunger for status by "putting the general in his place" (the famous MoD liner used even by a peon there).

Hence The question of status and Pay progression needs to be delinked completely from the civilians and police. Status of Armed Forces should be restored to post indepence postion. Pay fixation and grade Pay to be reasonably higher than civilians and same progression.

The status must continue to remain based on ranks as existing before First Pay Commission.

That is what USA and other western democracies are following.

We need to be national "Armed Forces" that belong to the people and their leaders rather than being equated with the irresponsible and anti-people bearuacrates and colonial style Police Forces. Armed Forces can not afford to be seen and get discreditted like them.

That is the only way Armed Forces can maintain their "Izzat and Iqbal". Otherwise these competing elites in their blind rat race will so demoralise the Armed Forces that there would be no requirement for external agression to defeat Indian Armed Forces and demoralise them.

Let us go "out of the box" and allow them to box each other rather than the winners and losers boxing the Armed Forces in frustration.

Anonymous said...

This remark on why get touchy about red tabs is right on. If a Security agency were to give their Guards red tabs - imagine how the red tabs would feel when they pass by.
AND no one in the Army HQ will even raise a peep to ensure that such degardation is stopped.
W.r.t CG officers we are to blame.We use such organisations as dumping grounds and choice postings. Hence neither the offr on deputation nor the organisation is bothered about parity.

Anonymous said...

When armed forces lost miserably on parity issue in pay commission, why cry foul over the "Consolation Prize" the Govt is contemplating to Lt Cols? Only because there is going to be too much red? Its nothing more than a mental block which was manifested when full-sleeves of OG uniform were shortened or majors were made lt cols at 13 years. good thing is its only a matter of time we get over it.
18 years, today, may seem too early today. But five years down the lane, we may repent having it extended to 20, 21, 22 or 23 years wen we may have to knock ministry's doors to reduce it back to 18 years owing to growing displeasure over parity issue.
If we don't have strength enough to fight for what we want, at least we should have humility enough to accept what we get

kds khurana said...

dear navdeep ,
the time of col(ts) should be at 20/21 yrs.

Pied Piper said...

I wonder why every officer should aspire to be the COAS and place himself in that stupid pyramid? Why should a creative genius who may be lacking the qualities of a commander ever want to be part of such a race? Would he not be more satisfied and happy with a job which is more to his liking? Is it success that is key to happiness, or vice versa?

If promotion is still a big issue, why can’t we have several pyramids – the gradient will be much less steep. Each pyramid catering to different categories (aptitudes) of officers. We may need to expand the no of specialist fields.

Anonymous said...

After having gone through this very interesting debate on the subject very dear to all of us one aspect which is precipitating for sure is the lack of mutual respect and hence indifference to mutual progression. Every one up the ladder misses no chance to prove that he is different. The worst is when most of the people up the ladder start dissociating with the peers. It is evidently clear from above comments that we are all with still minds. We are far too vigorously contending the progression of our on cadre instead of challenging the degradation inflicted on us. All those part of Paramilitary forces and GP 'A' services have been pushed up by one grade and hence effectively we have been pushed down by one grade. If by their up gradation the world did not collapse than why are so many outcries against only a thought/preposition pertaining to our own growth. It only reflects our constipated and confined attitude. The states have so many DGPs but none of their cadre officers are displaying our type of thinking to say the least. It’s high time that we find ways and means to change ourselves and ensure every one gets adequately compensated in terms of his status too. The outside world doesn’t care two hoots about us since the ranks of our's are really of no consequence to them. However this obsession of ours with Rum, Ribbons and Ranks have been nicely used against us by the beurocrats and hence proved that we ourselves are our best enemies. Rightly said it is we who are regressive and rightfully responsible for our own state of affairs. Dear Navdeep Sir, I know you to be of a very progressive mind set however after these arguments put fwd by you I can only remind you of a good old historical reality…….. “You too Brutus”. Pardon me for my words.

With Regards
Raj

Satish said...

YES I FULLY AGREE WITH RAJ AND IT IS ALSO BECOMING CLEAR THAT MAJOR NAVDEEP WHO TILL NOW WAS ON OUR SIDE,SEEMS TO BE SHIFTING TO THE OTHER SIDE. I DON'T KNOW THE REASON. 18 YEARS IS REASONABLE AND GOI IS GIVING IT TO YOU I DON'T KNOW WHY OUR SVC HQS ARE NOT TAKING IT. DEFENCE OFFICERS STATUS HAS TO BE RESTORED AND CONCERTED EFFORTS ARE REQUIRED FROM ALL OF US TOWARDS THIS CAUSE. LETS NOT PUT OBSTACLES AND SET ASIDE NARROW MINDED NESS. PAY AND STATUS IS IMPORTANT TO EVERY INDIVIDUAL AND WE IN DEF FORCES ARE no DIFFERENT AND MOREOVER WHAT WE ARE ASKING IS OUR RIGHT ONLY & NOTHING ELSE.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Satish

Neither has the govt offered the rk of full Col in 18 yrs and resultantly nor have the service HQrs rejected any such demand. This rumour is an off-shoot of some fertile minds. Please go through the scribd document in the post in depth before commenting on the 'side' I am on.

Newkid said...

Dear Maj Navdeep
I have no doubt that you were are and will remain in our side
In fact service never have a better voice with you
However I strongly feel that root cause to solve the problem is to have some sort of parity with organised Group A services
We all know services cant live and work wothout a rank structure
As such we have to have a solution more or less based on your earlier post but with a rank progression to COL in 18 yrs
We can have selection garde but should ensure that almost all rech this level by 18 /19 yrs as the case is presently with other GP A services
Similarly BRIG rank selection should be made with an aim to ensure that every one retires atleast at BRIG rank as already stipulated in AVSC Report
pAY SHOULD IN CASE BE PROTECTED AND SHOULD BE GIVEN AT PAR WITH gP A Services
Rajiv

Satish said...

Every other Gp 'A' services has gone ahead much more than Defence Services. This Pay commission is the biggest damager. The anamolies which were pointed out last year are not even talked about any more. I still feel that it is the MSP which which has not gone down the gullet of so called decision makers. Lets give back the MSP but should be given back the same status, Pay and promotional avenues. It's just the recession which has given false scenario that people are again getting attracted toward Def Forces. Selection In SSB's has not really gone up because only the quantity has increased not the quality. Maj Navdeep no doubt has done tremendous job for the cause of Def Services and we sincerely want him to continue this fight till logical conclusion.
Amen

mukesh said...

I THINK THE debate has going useless. the thinking among many defence officers that gp A services are way ahead from them is factually not correct .
i my self in EE NFSG post even after about 20 years whers as lt col is granted in 13 years . this is the posn in majority of gp A services. every where the promotion r vacancy based . only in very select GP A sevices such as IAS , IFS , IPS etc the promotions r faster than defence services .
things can not improve by comparing with civil , but the solution has to come from with in defence services .

like AVSE report provided much relief .

Anonymous said...

Happy New year to all. Hope to get some good NEWS exclusively for Armed Forces.

Anonymous said...

I do not think the 18 yr time scale rank for promotion to Col i going to materialise. What has happened after implementation of AVS Phase 2 is that most of the addl vac in the army at full col level have gone to the fighting arms: next to none to the services.The result is that result is that sucess rate of services in No 3 board is coming down to 30 percent or therebouts.This fig can be maint only if boards for fighting arms and servuices are held 5 yrs apart for the same batch. If the diff has to be maint at 3 yrs then sucess rates will have to come down to the region of 22 percent.Assuming that the org would like to maint the sucess rate of services in no 3 board at 30 percent , this would result in services officers facing their first boards with abt 20 yrs of service. If this is the case, the prospect of picking up Col (TS) with 18 yrs of service would result in the absurd situation of services officers picking up TS rank even before facing No 3 board. So , as I see it we can have Col (TS) at 18 yrs coming in only if there is concensus on bringing down success rates of services to 22 percent. The other option, of course is to redistribute some of the AVS Phase 2 vac to services as well, which in turn means that results for fighting arms which are now in the region of 55-60 percent will come down. Its a difficult choice to make at the top: lets see how the cookie will crumble.

Anonymous said...

Anony dec 31/0857 pm has analyzed the situation very well and similar thing has happened in IAF also.

Not with standing col ts must be reduced to 21 yrs so that after a few years offrs of services branch(considred at 18) after missing three boards would automatically be picking up col ts.

as for as the officers of presently having =>21 yrs and not permanently passed over would be col s if selected by the board otherwise in any case they would RETIRE AS COL TS ONLY.

it is fair deal for all after reducing col substantive rank from 20 to 15.

Anonymous said...

In Army Medical Corps, the Col board is presently at 21-22 yrs vis-a vis 15 yrs for Infantry.Col TS at 18 yrs will atleast help AMC tremendously, as DACP is a distant dream now.

SS said...

Some headway seen , COL TS in 21
yrs
SS

Anonymous said...

there is sheet with revised grade pay being circulated. Any truth to the contents??? 13 yrs - 8700, 14-17 yrs 8900, 18 yrs 10000.????