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Friday, April 3, 2009

An even simpler way-out :

Regular visitors on this blog should be familiar with BeeCee, a senior retired naval officer who has earlier contributed through his guest posts and comments, most popular being :

6th CPC : Less than honest brokers

And

Not so pragmatic : God save us from ourselves

Now with reference to the earlier post on the blog, BeeCee has a simpler solution in mind. He has suggested that instead of delinking rank progression from grade pay progression, we can simply configure our military ranks with civil grades and the length of service required to achieve them. For example, instead of promoting officers to the ranks of Capt and Major at 2 and 6 years of service, we can simply promote them at 4 and 9 years as is done in the civil services for Senior Time Scale (STS) and Junior Administrative Grade (JAG). Lt Col and NFSG are already on a similar footing @ 13 years. Hence while civil servants shall be promoted to STS, JAG and NFSG in 4, 9 and 13 years, military officers could also be promoted to the same grades in 4 (Capt), 9 (Maj) and 13 (Lt Col) years with exactly the same pay and status parity. Though this would involve rolling back of some of the benefits of the AV committee report, it would ultimately be in the fitness of things. Moreover, wherever we feel the requirement of an early promotion, we always have the ‘acting rank’ route to ameliorate any such problem. All promotions in the future can aptly be linked to any cadre upgradation on the civil side.

Maybe we need to put up all these suggestions to the High Power Committee as and when it is set up.

21 comments:

Anonymous said...

Oh yes
I am always saying so
let us have parity
Rajiv

colramesh said...

for the purpose of getting out of the present mess,it looks ok.but not implementable,as the'Selection process and standards","Service conditions", and the "service requirements"in the Defence services are totally different...

Anonymous said...

"All promotions in the future can aptly be linked to any cadre upgradation on the civil side."

The demand of Armed Forces for separate pay commision had already been accepted by GOI which shall consider their pay and cadre as appropriate to efficient functioning of heirarchy instead of linking to civil side as judged by Military Experts. The status of JCO and NCOs should also be discussed here.

A B Mehta said...

I think this would be the simplest solution. MSP could give us the military edge and we would not have to everytime be at the mercy of babus.
I am also of the opinion that free ration in peace station has given us a a bad name as some of our collegues have been selling a few items. Instead we can get a substantial ration allownce.
The disparity between old and post Jan 06 pensioners also requires sorting out. THe pension amount is satisfactory as many did not have even 10% as basic pay. The difference at senior levels is considerable.

Kiran said...

I think that was the most logical thing to do... but given the fact that The JS has been equated to a Maj Gen... it appears that, that equivalence is the root problem. If we equate a JS to a Lt Col / Col , then the entire problem gets sorted out on its own. The root problem has been upgradation of this equivalence.
Considering that the IAS would not downgrade themselves, this appears to be a No-go situation.
I think we should stop demanding parity but demand a faster promotion scale. Demanding upgradation of Grade Pay every 3.5
years till 17.5 years of service would automatically ensure that financially we would not lose out. As regards to the equivalence, that too can be sorted out if we have Lt Col / Col attending meetings with the JS and equivalents. This has to be implemented by the higher commanders to ensure that we maintain respect.
The Star Generals must only interact with Additional Sec and above.
They must demand introduction of Additional Sec and Secretary for each of the services above the JS in the MoD. Right now the IAS controls the services through a JS ( JS - G/ Air etc ). By demanding these two additional vacancies, we would have ensured that Brig and Maj Gen would interact with Additional Sec and the Lt Gen with the Secretary Army / AF / Mav.

Rather than have just two Civil servants being the nodal officers at present between the Service HQ and the MoD, demand more lateral nodal points between the Service HQs and the MoD. Thus a DS would have to interact with a Maj / Lt Col in connection to a Couple of Dtes only and a JS would interact with a Col of 5 Dtes...

The structure would be :
For Each Service... One Secretary, 2 Additional Sec, 6 JS and 12 DS...
this would ensure that lateral interaction would exist at more levels rather than create more bureaucracy by centralising control in the hands of one JS who thus automatically interacts only with Maj Gen and above.

Anonymous said...

In my opinion service officers will get parity only when they are promoted and given pay/grade similar to civilan officers six years earlier as most of them retire at 54.

Additionally Govt should absorb all officers in defence PSUs/ Paramilitary/State Police till 60 yrs after retiring from defence at 54 due missing ranks.

Else retirement age of service officers be made uniform (60 Yrs)like civilians including paramilitary.

Anonymous said...

One is enticed into armed forces by attraction of few rupees more at the start of the carrier. However, later the truth dawns as to how one was short sighted. Our colleagues in other services overtake us in no time. The principle of natural justice entails that every armed force officer is paid more at all levels (ie..a 15 year armed forces officer draws what other service officer gets; 20 year vs 20 yrs and so on. At every level the seniority and parity with initial edge is maintained. This will absolve the armed forces HQs from projecting seperate pay proposals in pay commissions. They shall have to project proposals for special allowances only. Pay etc shall be as projected by other services plus that initial edge. As regards the Rank Structure, Armed forces may keep the rank structure for internal administration. Interse seniority between services may continue as of now ie.. on pay comparison.

Anonymous said...

GUYS, I THINK NAVDEEP HAS LOST HIS MARBLES... WHY ON EARTH WOULD WE WANT TO TAKE A STEP BACKWARDS. HE RECOMMENDS THAT WE DELAY PROMOTIONS OF CAPT AND MAJOR TO LET THE DREGS OF THE IAS CATCH UP; THAT TOO THE CLERICAL PROMOTEES.
HIS ARGUMENT THAT IT IS THE FIRST STEP IN PARITY DOES NOT HOLD WATER AT ALL.
THE RIGHT THING FOR THE STUPID FAUJI LOT WOULD BE TO REMOVE RANKS LIKE LT, LT COL AND BRIG. THAT WOULD PUT US ON A MORE LEVEL FOOTING AS FAR AS THE IAS / IPS ARE CONCERNED. STUPIDLY WE ARE LETTING TOP HEAVY BEUREAUCRATS ENSURE THAT WE ARE BOTTOM HEAVY AND THAT THE MAJORITY OF US DONT GET BEYOND LT COL.

Anonymous said...

In my opinion , it is not the personal/individual duty of army/navy/airforce officers to try and make the armed forces an option of choice for the young men of today .The role of other democratic institutions is equal if not more . In this case , The country has decided the money and the status it wants to accord the armed forces ,keeping fully in mind its implications and the future strategic interests of the nation . If the powers that be have decided to pay the IAS/IPS etc more then so be it , since they would have already foreseen the implications !! namely , a future shortage of military leaders to lead the country's armed forces. We as a nation have a tendency , as seen throughout our history of neglecting our armed forces and then paying for it at a later stage !! I think we are headed in same direction again . It is in our genes !!

digvijay said...

Brother you have hit the nail on the head -just go ahead with it -when in Rome do as the Romans do .Link with them & they will do your dirty work without any choice

Anonymous said...

Uncle disgusting Anonymous at 1039

I think it is you who have lost your marbles my friend. BTW these were not Navdeep's thoughts but Bee Cee's.

See what Digvijay writes after you. That is the way to go.

Once you link your promotions and progressions with them, they will not have the excuse of differential in rank and time span of rank attainment and will per force have to give us whatever they take for themselves. It's a brilliant idea and the work of two intelligent minds. And in anycase the things we got from AV have already been negated with downgrading of rank, pay and status. Once we link ourselves with them, in each cadre review, whatever benefits they give to themselves would automatically accrue to us. Navdeep has also pointed out that when we need accelerated promotions, we can use the acting rank route which means we can still stay ahead of the game. So practically you can continue to promote officers as Capts in 2 years and Majors at 6 (or even 3) years. Did you now get it Mr 'Marbles'.

PS- Navdeep, why the hell do you let such people post comments with objectionable language ?

Anonymous said...

Remember Grade pay has nothing to do with Inter departmental Seniority as per the SCPC which means that we are the ones harping on Maj Gens being equivalent to JS. Service HQs should send Lt Cols where Deputation of a DIG is asked for and Cols for IG vacancies. If this is not accepted withdraw the deputationist and let them climb the nearest gum tree. If the Babus apply PMO pressure then ensure the best Pangataker is sent. Ask him to be at his worst best.
It can happen - only WE must make it happen

Rajababu said...

Agree with Kiran, but we should let the babus vcreate additional posts at our expense. we should deal firmly with the persons matching the seniority by no yrs of service than by rank in case of babus.

Some wishful thinking down below !!!

Second most important aspect i would reccommend is the removal of babus from our service directorates. Na rahega Baas na rahegi Baasuri!!!

A word of caution though. we should ensure that no on gets dismissed from service while taking panga!!!

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

This kind of suggestion will send a message to the babu community that we are actual not thinking while implementing any proposals. We would become a laughing stock for implementing and then removing them. Now we should try to have an edge at least at younger level due to hardship involved, which gets equated at Lt Col level.

Food for thought.

cheers

Anonymous said...

Yeah,good enough. the problem is resolved.
let this idea go to those people who are holding the issue for want of satisfactory solution.

Harry said...

@ Maj Navdeep and others

The proposal seems pretty neat and will pay dividends in future too ! But I wanna refine it further by making following suggestions:-

1. Incl trg pd in service and ask for Trainee 2 Lt or 2 Lt(Trainee) with grade pay 5400 during trg at IMA/OTA. Accordingly Grade pay gets stepped up for every rk by one rung. Now make substantive Capt in 4 years (incl trg period of 18/12/9 months for DE/NDA/OTA entry respectively)and accordingly substantive Maj and Lt Col in 9 and 13 years respectively should be fine. By including trg period we are not loosing much in real terms.

2. Ask for service offrs' induction in MoD at DS and above levels, even if it means creating more vacs and filling them with service offrs (as suggested above by anony). Open AFHQ Civ Service Cadre entry for our SS offrs.

3. Upgrade Brig to Brig Gen and endeavour to achieve this rk in under 20 years and equate with JS. (Equating Col with JS will remain a pipedream, pls be realistic!!).

4. Maj Gen be equated with Addl Secy.

5. Lt Gen = Spl Secy and DGP.

6. Army Cdrs and PSOs be redesignated as Col Gens and equated with Secy to GoI.

Further suggestions are welcome to effect realistic and meaningful improvements.

jpadmanabh said...

navdeep,
khudos to u 4 the unprecidented thought process but alas as i said even our own kith and kin who belive in having class within the class will not like the idea as u can see form the reactions. i hope someday they will wake up to the fact and realise the difference between dream and reality. the growth which is not sustainable whether given by rank or otherwise is not growth at all. let us grow together as a service and bring glory to the organisation that we represent.

supra_n35 said...

Trg Period should be included in counting No of Years of service suggestd. This would solve the problem and keep an edge to a little extent.

Anonymous said...

1. this is not a permanent solution right! once you establish parity between say 6 military ranks versus 6 IAS ranks, what prevents the IAS from creating couple of new rungs in the ladder and re-initiate equating ranks but beginning from below, thus giving a clear edge to the top two IAS ranks. they have done so in the past.

2. i still think that the grade pay must be linked with years of service, instead of rank. nobody respects his superiors because he gets a higher grade pay, at least not in the armed forces. so why should ranks be in sync with monetary enhancements in grade pay at all.

3. suppose on this blog, we do come up with a very good strategy which if followed would mean a panacea for all fauji troubles. what then? what is the follow up? maybe Major Navdeep would like to enlighten me. who in the existing chain of army commands wants to know the solutions to these problems? and secondly how are they ever going to get such radical ideas, obviously detrimental to the IAS cadre per se, through the bureaucrats in the first place.

regards
blue

Anonymous said...

Lot of things have been written on this blog about PARITY with civil servises,same has been talked by non other than chairman chiefs of staff commitee Admiral Mehta, But unfortunately very few people are aware that there is no parity between the three services. Navy has not implemented promotion to the rank of Captain TS(equavelent to Col TS) on complition of 26 yaers of service to the officers of commanders TS(equavelent LT Col TS)where as same has been implimented by two services,So what are We talking about PARITY ?

Anonymous said...

Sir, How about this small consideration for the PBOR:
1.TYPE I : For Fighting Arms, Arty, Engrs (which employ GD soldiers in section/ Pl/ Coy/ Bn level groups under fire and observation as a single entity in a task).
a.Sepoy (+8 yrs) – Hav (+8 yrs) – Sub (+8 yrs) – *Hony Lt/ Hony Capt (to be promoted as RC officers Capt and Maj, and retire at 32 years service. * Sub Maj to be select appointment for regiments.
b.Sepoy not selected for promotion to Hav to be transfer to services and imparted conversion to service trades. Sepoys unwilling to transfer to retire at 16 yrs one month with second ACP. Havs not selected for Sub to retire at 24 yrs one month with third ACP.
c.RC officers can serve in select appointments in Trg / staff tenures.
2.TYPE II : For other Arms/ Services and Non-GD soldiers (under Type I) :
a.After conversion trg – Nk (+8 yrs) – Hav (+8 yrs) – Nb/Sub (+4 yrs) – Sub (+4 yrs)* and retire at 32 yrs service. * Sub Maj to be selected appointment for regiments.
b.Selection for All Clks/ SKTs in any Arm/ Service will be taken from this pool.
Notes:
1.a.Sub (holding rank for 4 yrs) and Sub Maj to form entry group for RC SSB. Earliest selected RC officers will retire at 32 yrs service at rank of Maj.
b.Sub non-empanelled for RC/ Sub Maj to retire at 24 yrs service.
c.Sub (holding rank for 4 yrs in Type I and 2 years in Type II) will be considered for appointment as Sub Maj.
d.Sub Maj appointment to be held for 4 yrs as existing.
e.No change to ACC entry service bracket.
f.SL/SCO service bracket from 10 – 15 years for all PBOR.
g.Selection of personnel for transfer out of parent Arm suitably by respective corps/ central mechanism.
h.Transfer to CPO’s only at Hav/ Sub - Command appointments only.
j.Arms/Arty/Engrs too, to follow Air Force system of SNCO Club and permit entry to JCO’s Club.
2.Scales.
a.Sepoy(Entry)
b.Nk (NFSG under ACP)
c.Hav (Selection Grade)
d.Nb/Sub (NFSG under ACP)
e.Sub (Selection Grade)
f.Sub Maj (Appointment Grade(Apex))
g.RC Lt to be RC Capt after selection through SSB draws same scales as direct entry officer.
h.RC Capt to be RC Maj after passing Criteria Exam Part B and draws same scales as direct entry officer.