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Saturday, May 2, 2009

Was the previous post a justification of degradation of status of Lt Generals ? No, not at all !!! (Plus some good news for newly promoted Colonels)

First some good news for newly promoted full Colonels. The govt has notified the reduction in the length of service requirement for full Colonels by 5 years. The minimum service required for substantive rank of selection grade Col would now be 15 years and not 20 years as earlier. A separate post shall be put up on the modalities of the same later.

All those who thought that the previous post on upgradation of Lt Generals to HAG+ was a justification for accepting the overall depression of status of the military, especially Lt Generals, are not on the intended grid.

The post was to clear the mist on the modalities of the issue and in no way a justification of the downgradation of status over the years. The blog post was to throw light on the fact that non-acceptance of the new dispensation would have given credence to our tacit approval of Lt Generals remaining in HAG and below DsGP. We must realise that 62 years of constant downfall cannot be curtailed by such rash actions but would require a series of corrective measures in a mutually acceptable environment.

My personal feeling is that acceptance of HAG+ is a progressive step and a move in the right direction and all credit goes to the current leadership and our pay cells. The overall picture as earlier stated by me in this post on our ‘slip from the ladder’ and this one on ‘tradition and history of police ranks’ must not be lost sight of, but the present also cannot be ignored. Let us not be inflexible by saying things like – “all Lt Gens or none in HAG+”. Let us make a beginning and move forward and not get caught in a logjam of sorts. What needs to be ultimately addressed is this by portraying it the following way :

Prior to 1937, the senior most police officer in a State was equal to a Colonel,

At the time of independence in 1947, the said officer was equivalent to a Brigadier,

In 1973, equal to a Major General,

In 1986, equivalent to a Lt General,

In 1996, senior to a Lt General (but junior to a Lt General placed as an Army Commander), and,

In 2006, the same police officer is at par with the Vice Chief of the Army Staff.

Forget about HAG or HAG+ or Apex and what not, let us concentrate on equation of functional appointments, take what we get and bash on !!!


BC said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,
Recently saw a news on the Zee News portal that Govt has taken decision to lower the service requirement for becoming full colonel to 15 years.
" Govt fixes 15 yrs of service to become Colonel

New Delhi, May 01: In a major decision impacting the age profile of Army, Navy and Air Force commanding officers, government on Friday fixed 15 years of commissioned service for substantive promotion to the rank of Colonel instead of the existing 20 years.

"The government today fixed 15 years of commissioned service as the minimum qualifying service for substantive promotion to the rank of Colonel in the Army, Captain in the Navy and Group Captain in the Air Force. The decision of the government has been received at the Service headquarters," sources said here.

Until now, Lieutenant Colonels in the Army, Commanders in the Navy and Wing Commanders in the Air Force had to put in a cumulative qualifying service of 20 years after commissioning for promotion to substantive Colonel and equivalent ranks.

However, they became unit commanding officers even with just 16 years of service, as per the cadre management policies of the tri-services, but had to wait for another four years to be confirmed as substantive Colonels and to receive the salary of a Colonel.

In effect, it would mean that there would be no more "acting" ranks of Colonel, Captain and Group Captain in the services.

Bureau Report"

Can you amplify on the subject please.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...


The news is already on the blog post on which you have commented


BC said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,
Thanks for the quick reply. Does this mean that boards for colonel would be prior to or on 15 years of service?

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...


No it does not mean that.

Lt Cols would get promoted to Col at the same pace. However the offr concerned would not be an Acting Colonel till 20 yrs but would pick up the substantive rank in 15 yrs.

It does not speed up rank progression.

In certain areas such as the Accounts Branch of the IAF, the promotions are so slow that offrs are reaching Gp Capt by time scale @ 26 yrs prior to being considered for the Selection Grade. While the 20 to 15 yrs decrease may just be symbolic, we need to rev up our cadre mgt system and provide quicker promotions.

Col VT Venkatesh(Retd) said...

Unless there is a way found to give golden handshake for the senior officers ,there is going to be lot of disgruntlment in the senior ranks since the services will become top heavy with out worthwhile appoitments.This is the reason we have DGP(Stationery),DGP(Police Manual) etc in the Police.

bobby said...

is it applicable to amc?

Prasad said...

1. By accepting this we will be legalising the downgradation of the Lt Col by 6 CPC.

2. will brig promotion still remain at 33 yrs or will be reduced by 5 yrs.

3. What happens to subsequent ranks

oliveslime said...

Navdeep, correct me if i am wrong but my understanding of this is as under..

I Think the it will mean that firstly in csse of those cols who picked up their rank as acting Col in Jan 2007 and became COs will get their basic pay arrears as Subs Col from the day they assumed command (Jan 2007 in this case)@ PB 4 scale, also those who have completed say 19 and a half years of servive can pub their PII with imdt effect. It would also have an implication the cols with 19and half or so of service will get placed in a higher pay scale within PB4 as against LT Cols who will be in the same pay band.

pls clearify....

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep

Why crib about parity when we can't seem to accept officers with more brass occupying what are perceived to be 'fundy' appointments.

How does it matter if Police have DGP Stationery etc ? We can also have these kind of billets to adjust more of higher ranks. (Since pay is associated with ranks in the fauj!)

We should get over the phobia of getting 'overwhelmed' with large numbers of Cols etc. How this will 'degrade' the rank is beyond me!

Yeah, we NEED to revv up our cadre management system and provide quicker promotions.

Anonymous said...

It is high time all Lt Col having 21 yrs of service may be promoted to Col TS since substantive Col is reduced by 5 yrs.

Anonymous said...

My Dear Friends,

The govt approval simply menas that:-

@ qualifying service for promotion to the rank of colonel (Substantive) by selection is 15 yeras.

@ When, how and at what years of service your selection is made is upto cadre structure, Cadre management and cadre Controlling authorities (aka MS Babus or Babus in Pers Brs)

@ Since AF are not a civil service or PMF and they have to cater for combat and operations, AF has to have acting ranks.

@Conditions for acting ranks will have to be laid down seperately.

for the time being, in PMF an officer joins at Asstt Comdt level after simple graduation, gets Senior Time Scale after four years, gets promotion as Dy Comdt after six years, as 2nd-in-Command after 11 years and as Commandant after 15 years. He becomes eligible for promotion as DIG after 20 years of service and then as IG after 24 years of service. In IPS things are different.

Minimum 15 years of service for Col (GP 8700 eqivallant to IAS Dir 13 years ) means that at completion of 15 years of service if one is promoted as colonel, a service officer is pushed down to be 4 years junior. an IAS officer at 13 years of service will be GP 8700 with an additional increment. That will neutralise all increment in PB-4, the AF officers would have drawn in 12, 13 and 14 years of service.

So the basic agenda of IAS officers to make up for good times they have had in JNU or otherwise remains intact. Their late entry loss is made up.

Sinister ideas and designs and obstination of highest order. They have degraded the AF and put them below PMF....

Anonymous said...

This does not mean anything at all,people will still get promoted as usual,,,,,,,,,one more trick by the govt.maj navdeep,,,,,,,,,am i wrong???????

Anonymous said...

If it would take not less than 15 years to pick up the rank of full Colonel then the rank that is attained by AF officers in 13 years should invariably be equal to Director to Central Government in GP 8700.

There are serious disparities within the services which need to be resolved in house first. If All India Services have succeeded in devising and puting in place fool proof mechanisms to ensure uniformity and parity for themselves, why can't the three Sister Services?????

Anonymous said...

AF officers is col in 15 +1 (Trg) +16 yeras.

IAS is col equivalant in 12 +1 (trg) yeras in effect 12 yers
He gets an additional increment at the time of promotion, so gain of one year effective 11 yeras...

Hence AF officers is pushed 4 years backward as compared to IAS..

Three years backwards as compared to IPS

Two years backwards as compared to Class A service officer (due to pay progression linked to IAS)

Col is also pushed back one year as compared to Comdt PMF as his trg period is taken into account in service.

Why this...??? Are Services really in such a rotten state...

what next....??

For the time being... one year of trg in IMA and nine month in OTA to be straight away taken as part of service... that should not be an issue...

Secondly..the Grade pay issue of Lt Col, Col, Brig and Maj Gen needs resolution as per the known and accepted equivalance / parity with IPS as enshrined in all CPC prior to the 6th CPC..

otherwise remain below PMF..for ever...

samy said...

Whatever one may say this what you were looking for to go up they have put it down by adding just one line that it would be selection after fifteen yrs and directly empaneled offrs would be substantive cols and again loose on time and perks b'coz they will not become col before sixteen to seventeen yrs of service.
Requirement is everyone gets to the rank of col at fifteen and then there is selection for empeneling offrs to command.

This definitely has brought down the Col rank equal to Comdt of CPMF

Vasundhra said...

Simple, please take a step further. Apply-Pay progression parity with the IAS ordered for ALL organised Group-A Civil Services-Say batch of 1995 seniority of Cols(Sel) is granted substantive simultaneously Lt Cols of 1993 batch be granted Col(T) as is being done for Group-A Services.There should be no objections from the civies side and it will ensure Cols (T) at 17 years. If I am off mark please correct me.

Anonymous said...

Let us promote our all officer full Col with grade pay of lt col at 15yrs.

Approved no. of select Col vacancies be given GP of Col.

I D Sharma said...

Dear Sirs,
Why do we waiste time in futile discusions. Till Lt cols were placed in P B 4. A Col commanding a majore unit for two years was getting Pay of Lt col in P B 3 and his arreas were paid to him less than 100000/= than a substantive Col.Now one would become Col substantive on promotion. When you promote him depends on the concerned Brach not the Govt. Sort out your own home first. All those who are cribing about parity out side should sort it out within.
Put your own house in order, so that selection grade Col is promoted on completion of 15 years of service. Good luck. Jai Hind I D

Penmil said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,
You had written in your post, Table-of-Appointments (http://www.scribd.com/doc/14617746/Table-of-Appointments),"Lt Gen(HAG+):33% Lt Gens by seniority..(equal to).....Special Secretaries to Govt.India when appointed".

However, a reader at Anonymous, May 1, 2009 5:48 PM in response to your Lt Gen in HAG+ ...................(http://www.indianmilitary.info/2009/04/lieutenant-generals-in-hag-myth-and.html) wrote,"SPECIAL SECRETARIES TO GOI ARE IN APEX SCALE AND NOT IN HAG PLUS".
The amendment to IPS (Pay)Rules, Sep ,2009 also clubs Secretaries and Special Secretaries to Govt. of Ind. in the same Apex scale.

Is Spl.Secy to Govt. of Ind. in Apex scale?

Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeep,

Kindly give us latest gen on Col TS. When 21 yrs is likely to be imlemented?

May I request u to also address the anomaly in retirement age of Col S and Col TS. Post SPC the retirement age should be same for both as there is no difference in GP. Earlier col TS was retiring at Lt Col age due same rank pay.

Also both select and TS be called Col only and not differentiated while addressing/ communicating.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

Please clarify the following... Does this apply only to the guys selected to be Cols... What about the ones left behind and still wearing the rank of Lt Cols... What happens to them.... they are still waiting for their third board to be missed in the IAF even after 22 years of service...

chatoo said...

Yes now the Cols(TS) will be doing the job of so2, so3 etc unless sufficent openings are kept for them. Too many red tabs floating around in Station HQ etc

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep and Readers,

There is no way out of the present system and structure of AF cadres to meet the genuine aspiration of better and faster career progressions.

The only possible way out is making the AF as the feeder organizations for CPOs and PMF. That is the only way of managing the "Pension Bomb" as also making these rag tag forces professionals. PBOR and Officers should be invariably screened at seven years service and then transferred to the CPOs / PMF.

This looks simple but has many hurdles, namely,

* Any recruitment to CPOs and PMF will have to be stopped.

* The social Justice agenda of reservations in these organizations which is so rampant today and has sucked vitality out of good outfits like AR or ITBP, has to stop (that means many DGs will be less by many crores).

* Officers intake has to be through CDSA and SSB without any distinction who serve the AF till 7 years. AF then carry out another selection on completion of seven years service. Opportunities to get into all india services and GP A services is also provided at this stage.

*thus AF will be the recruiter, trainer and builder. CPOs and PMF to have only bare minimum trg facilities.

* No one will retire from AF as a Lt Col and Naik or equivalent. Those will all retire fron CPOs and PMF at sixty with pension to be paid by MHA.

* AF then will have Hav and COls and above and their equivalents as the permanent cadre.

* Middle and higher leadership cadre of CPOs and PMF should be half from the AF and a half from their own cadres (those who were shifted out of AF).

* IAS and IPS will have to concede this territory of internal security. That would be minor adjustment physically but major adjustment psychologically.

This sorts out many huge problems:

* Professionalization of CPOs.

* Huge reduction in pensionary burden.

* enhanced satisfaction of the PBOR and Officer cadre.

* Availability of huge military trained reserves for futuristic inevitability of onflicts in the Himalayas.

* Tackle Naxalism professionally and not in encounter specialist IPS style.

Do not forget that India will have to fight wars on borders, in Mumbay and Gaya/ Buxar simultaneously and concurrently and none of those will be so trivial as to be within the capacity of present day CPOs.

This model is well known and workable.

lt lokendra said...

Dear maj navdeep thanks for enlighting YO's like me .

will continue to read your blog.

Lt Lokendra

kartik said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,
In IAF,AVSC phase II is being implemented in 5 yrs time wef 2009,i.e Gp Capt in flying branch and Tech branch(with antedate) at 20yrs & ground duty at 22yrs.After 5yrs, boards will be done for all branches at 18yrs(unless flying guys have some other ideas to promote themselves at 16 yrs to gain superiority over other branches). How does this 15 yrs of Gp Capt(colonel)would come thru for IAF officers? Further,pl clarify if in Army or navy, does any branch gets promoted ahead of others by few years? How to remove such anomolies within ones own service or services? Please comment.

- Chandu

pawan said...

Dear bloggers and Maj Navdeep,
I am shocked at the foresight and capability to read the future by being able to read the finer prints.
Down slide started from the time we gained independence. After every degradation people made similar statements.
Worse is yet to come. Rejoice we must before next degradation happens.
Even FOOLS know that degradation of AF ultimately to demise of a NATION STATE.
In the worst case of degradation senior Lt Gen (other than Army Commanders) can be equated with DGs of BSF, CRPF etc and DGP in Chief of a State be equated with a Corp Cdr.
AF like fools always accepted a degradation after some stupid justification by IAS and assurance that new equation is only an internal arrangement and will not disturb the status of AF.
what has followed year after year is there for all so called intellectuals to see.
AF are are third rate force has been QED time and again.
If anyone disagrees with above reasons then please do respond BUT with reasons. I know there are many ( Holding HIGH Offices in AF ) people who LIVE in FOOLS PARADISE
and would love to believe that there status has not been changing for quite some time now.

chatoo said...

Am I missing some thing here. If col substatntive at 15 years, a normal Army Bn will be flooded with red tabs.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep and others,

What will be the effects of Lt Cols being placed in PB-4 on pay fixation of all other PB-4 category (Cols, Brigs, Maj Gens).

With the provisio of one increment for every two yers, now their fixation will have to be worked out from 38700 upwards??

say the pay fixation of a colonel of 27 years will entail grant of seven increments over 38700/- or so?

Does it entail refixation??

May throw some light on it >


Anonymous said...

I do not agree that as far as the Lt Gens are concerned we should take what we are offered and then fight for the rest. i think that is a escapist idea mooted by the powers-that-be in exchange for the middle of the road formula they have given. I smell somehting foul in what Navdeep is advocating so hard for. Why are you doing so Navdeep? I hope there are not any skeletons in the closet. Indeed. why are you defending the indefensible? Is there an agenda behind your writings on this subject?

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony at 11.44

Yes, there is an agenda behind what I write on this subject, the agenda of sanity.

Fine, leave HAG+ and lag behind DsGP in pay and keep fighting for 100% upgradation to HAG+ which is not prevalent in any other service !!!

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

And Anony, it would be worthwhile if you could just lift your veil and approach the issue with your real identity through email if you actually want to discuss it as a debate. No fun hiding behind anonymous tags and then alleging an 'agenda' on a regular in-your-face personal opinion.


Anonymous said...

Till we sort out promotion criteria within AF (various arms & services) this has no meaning. Let us resolve this anomaly inhouse prior to taking it outside.
This order will serve to cause a bigger divide within the AF.
Point to ponder

RKSINGH said...





Sudhir Verma said...

Dear Maj. Navdeep

You have equated DsGP of a state with Vice Chiefs of Armed forces. I beg to differ for the following reasons

The Vice Chiefs are senior to Secy, GOI in WOP and as such senior to Chief Secy. (CS) of a state. The DsGP takes order from Additional CS/Home Secy. of a state and both these appointments are equal to Principal Secy. in the State Government. Even the post of president board of revenue is equivalent to the CS.

The Advocate General ranks equivalent to the CS and he is senior to the DsGP's. The DsGP's on promotion join the GoI as directors of IB/CBI/RAW.

Just because the maximum of the scale of pay of DsGP reaches Rs. 80,000/- cannot be placed in the same bracket as Rs.80,000/- fixed (pay of Secy. GOI.

There will be large no. officer in GOI, whose maximum of the pay reached Rs. 80,000/-. e.g the pay of Dir. Gen of Medical Services has been fixed at Rs. 85,000/-. There may be large no. of Scientist, Technocrats, and Engineers who must be in this pay sacle.

Kindly educate

With Regards

Wg Cdr S.K Verma

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

Wg Cdr Sharma.

This blog does not publish incorrect information.

Unfortunately, you may not be knowing but select DsGP are now in the Apex scale of Rs 80000 fixed equal to Secy to Govt of India.

Almost all DsG of CPOs and one DGP per State are now in Apex Grade.

Anonymous said...

Many officers would like to know what a highly regarded soldier of our times thinks about the issue of Lt Gens degradation. These are the views of Gen Kala.

'I agree with all my seniors and colleagues that upgradation of 33 per cent Lt Gens to HAG Plus scale will only further aggrevate the problem. Besides other repurcussions, its implementation will pose functional problems. As I understand, if accepted by the Service Chiefs, each arm and service is likely to be allotted a fixed number of vacancies which will be further sub-allocated to the individuals on the basis of seniority. It means that almost all the corps commanders will be denied this upgradation, being the junior most in the rank. Consequently, a DGP police will 'continue' to remain senior to the Corps Commander, an equation that defeats the very purpose of the new dispensation.

It is also not necessary that every Lt Gen would retire in the HAG Plus scale. Officers, with barely two years residual service at the time of promotion, may discover that they do not make it to the privileged 33 per cent upper crust at the time of their retirement.

Obviously, our bureaucrats continue to remain ignorant about the finer aspects of our functioning. They have only compounded the problem further.
Hira Kala
(Lt Gen HB Kala, Former Army Commander, Western Command)

Brig Jasbeer (Retd) said...

Dear Major,

Your blog have a lot of regular readers. Kindly visit, http://mnscorps.blogspot.com/ and educate the armed forces about the Army Nurse Corps of other nations and the need to foram a Nurse Corps in Indian Army to manage the Nursing Services effectively.

Prsently, the nursing services are managed by the AMC doctors. The Nursing Officers who are required to supervise the work of Nursing Assistants have no authority to control them (they are not superior officers as being members of an auxiliary force). What is required here is formation of a Nurse Corps.

As the Armed Forces have oppened up almost every branch to women, we should now open up the last frontier (nursing officer) to the men also. That is allow men as Commissioned Nursing Officer. The Nursing services were the first arm of the services to have Indian women (since 1927). Why don't we now stary selecting women Nurses as JCOs in such a Nurse Corps. As this is the norm World over.

Kindly educate yourself on these matter. All links about ANC US, UK, Canada, etc are provided in my blog.

With regards Brig Jasbeer (Retd).