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Monday, March 23, 2009

Slip from the ladder

Sample these historic equations :

Highest Police Rank in a State : Colonel
Second Highest Police Rank in a State : Lt Colonel

Highest Police Rank in a State : Brigadier
Second Highest Police Rank in a State : Approximately equated with a Lt Col

Highest Police Rank in a State : Brigadier
Second Highest Police Rank in a State : Approximately equated with a Lt Col

Highest Police Rank in a State : Maj Gen
Second Highest Police Rank in a State : Brig

Highest Police Rank in a State : Lt Gen
Second Highest Police Rank in a State : Maj Gen

Highest Police Rank in a State : Lt Gen (Army Commander / VCOAS Grade)
Second Highest Police Rank in a State : Lt Gen

For determining the grades for the defence services, the 6th CPC has drawn a parallel with the Indian Police Service. In fact, for the first time, this pay commission has linked military salaries to Police grades using the latter as the backdrop. The police nomenclature of appointments has changed over the years. If indeed a comparison was to be made, it should have been made with the position in the hierarchy and not with the mere name of the appointment, which after umpteen number of redesignations and upgradations, has lost its inherent relevance. Hence if the highest police rank of a state was equated with a Col initially, what made the military rank go down on the status and pay ladder – is there any explanation in any pay panel report ? No, not at all. If thereafter, for a long period of time, an IGP was the apex police officer looking after the policing of an entire state and was equated with a Maj General, why is now a Maj Gen placed fourth from the top as far as comparison with the police is concerned. In fact changes in nomenclature and upgradations on the civil side without any actual functional effect on civil services have resulted in an indirect mess in the defence services. The same happened in case of police and also in Secretarial appointments under Govt of India as is clarified in this earlier post on this blog. For example, when the initial Secretarial hierarchy of Asst Secy to Govt of India / Under Secy / Addl Dy Secy / Dy Secy / Joint Secy / Addl Secy / Secy to Govt of India was over the years redesignated and changed to Under Secy to Govt of India / Dy Secy / Director / Joint Secy / Addl Secy / Secy / Cabinet Secy, the powers that be stuck on with the Major General = Joint Secy to GoI equivalence from the old hierarchy and simply pasted it in the new hierarchy not realising that the old Joint Secy (with about 30 years of service) which was the Fifth Secretarial rank initially had now been redesignated and replaced on the fifth step by the Addl Secy to GoI. In fact, many would not know that the old Dy Secy to GoI is now known as the (present) Joint Secy to GoI, both on the fourth step of the ladder. Hence, the linkage of the rank of Maj Gen should have ideally been with the fifth step of the hierarchy and not with the mere nomenclature of the appointment.

The solution hence would be to link military ranks with functional equations and position in hierarchy of civil grades and not with nomenclature or in some cases the exaggerated redesignated name of a post. This can only happen if there is a formulation of a committee to look into the effect on the military structure each time there is a cadre restructuring or upgradation on the civil side. For example, if a Maj Gen was equated with the highest police rank, then irrespective of change of the name of designation on the police side, the said rank should have remained equated with the corresponding highest police rank, whatever it may have been named, unless there was a proper redefining of roles and status by a lawfully constituted body. If a Maj Gen was equated with the fifth step Secretarial rank under the Govt of India hierarchy earlier, then the same should have been the equation irrespective of change in nomenclature and re-designation on the civil side. The police example has been highlighted by our regular visitor Aditya on the blog time and again and I thought it would be interesting to roughly highlight how police ranks have compared with the Army down the ages.


Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep Singh,

Are we talking of A Presidensy when we talk of Pre independence ?



Anonymous said...

well...i agree to what you say. however arn't we ourselves to be blamed for it. "The lies that win army promotions" by gen kadyan is horrific example that goes onto expose the kind of bitter actions that take place at army headquarters.
to the contrary on the subject... we have made our TOP heavy by having so many posts of Lt gen/maj gen/ brig etc and worse mostly at delhi. this is bound to tumble someday. though there is no denying that a maj gen cannot be a camp comdt... however one must have meaningful appointment and if not then we should not look over our shoulders to the other side of the fence where a IG or some other higher ranking official is 'in charge' of a housing project and the sole purpose there is to have monetary benefit.
having said that take a recourse to the ones sitting with claws and teeth who would not like to perhaps share and be rather more self centric. at least the clear understanding of "contentment" does exist when a housing project is alloted as a retirement gartutity to the person on the other side of the fence. the only disagreement is we don't have so many housing projects to take care.

kmpods said...

Dear Maj Navdeep
Refer the post on change in ranks of police services and the linkage by Pay Commision of Army scales to Police officers.
Firstly it was an anomaly that they linked it to the police services. We are doing different jobs. We are not equipped to do the jobs of the police services and they are not fit for the work being done by the army. So why do we compare ourselves and then rant and rave. It is for all of us to think.
As for the cadre review which the police got thereby uprading their ranks the Army has woken up late. Maybe now there will be some thought on the issue.
The other day I was seeing the DGP of a state putting on the rank badges equivalent to that of the Chief of Army Staff. Does that mean the Chief starts becoming equal to DGP of State ? No, he still remains the Chief of Indian Army.
By reacting to every such small issue we are opening ourselves to criticism and attacks. it is a fact that the ethos and organisational strength that we have cannot be emulated by the police or any central services for that matter.
Since a separate pay commission has been established hopefully after ten years these issues will be suiably addressed.
i wish to thank you for the wonderfull blog that you have and the efforts taken by you to educate us.

Anonymous said...

Thanks Maj Navdeep for the valuable inputs over the issue. I hope Govt of India and those responsible for Pay Commissions also see it.
I don't know what Govt/MOD is doing over PB4 to Lt Cols. It is getting dragged quite a bit now. One only hopes the issue is not lost in election heat.

Harry said...

@ Kmpods

Sir, You are way 'OFF THE MARK', I must say this. What you wear on shoulders is certainly IMPORTANT. Any comman man (even our own Jawan for that matter) sees the ranks worn. The other day a paramilitary DIG came to our unit in combat dress, and the sentry telephones the adjt saying a Brig saab wants to meet CO!! What do you say to this? Because of indifferent attitude shown by our elders in the past, police have brazenly not only copied our ranks but also devalued/degraded them. Imagine a 14 year service wala DIG getting compared to a weather beaten Brig with 28 + 1.5 year service behind him.

Sorry Sir, U have got it all wrong !! It DAMN WELL MATTERS to 90% of US. You seem to be in 10% minority.

digvijay said...

@ kmpods , where have you seen any police officer wearing chiefs ranks?they never reach the four star stage even if they are whatever they are ,unless & until you are sure dont put it on the blog please

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep, please also write an article of degradation of rank in Army. The Lt Col as CO with 25 years service in 1937, now a Col with 16 years service. A capatain was BEG commandant in 1937 with 8-12 years service today Brig with 22+ years. An GOC was Maj Gen in 1937 today also Maj Gen. Why such distortions. I am sure therse are self inflictinted injuries. Nothing to do with pay commissions or IAS.It will help clear the doubts of many Services officers under the impressions that IAS etc have harmed them. And what about the 10th pass becoming today Col through SL route. Is it not loering the prestige of Army. You cannot make quality just by inhouse selection and training.Alot of soul serching is over - over due. U cannot expect an individual to perform and change himself from Jawan to Brig?. Regards

Anonymous said...

well...many of us keep saying how can a maj gen be a camp comdt.i too feel the same but on the practical side i feel we need to change our thinkings. in this regard i would like to mention about a svy of india unit ( a technical unit like a sig coy/regt in the army)which was being commanded by a brig having five more brigs under him. these brigs were performing all duties akin to 2 i/c as well as coy commander of any unit.none of the brigs would ever complain for serving under a brig being a brig. now most of them all are serving maj gens in svy of india.no staff college, no ndmc/ldmc, no commanding even a coy level combat unit by most of them, age of retirement 60 yrs for all, posting 99% in metros throughout, tenure 6 to 7 years. only qualification being permanently seconded to svy of india which is civillian org.so had they cribbed how can we perform the duties of maj being brig then org would have told them to go back to army and retire as lt col . but they were sensible and shrewd and will now retire as maj gens compared to their course mates who with their qualification have retired as lt cols.
so i think it is high time we change our thinking and at least start thinking brigs as unit commanders to start with and may also do away with the rank of capt as well as lt. Let every one be commisioned as maj. we must understand that in our country it will do no good if you are a gentleman but you must be a shrewd gentleman.


Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...


A DGP of a State does not wear the rank badges of a General.

Only the Director of Intelligence Bureau (DIB)is supposed to wear the ranks of a full General when in uniform, but he/she rarely does.

In status however, the DIB is listed even below a Lt Gen.

Hope this clarifies.

Anonymous said...


I just want to say u wermust ve been watching a movie where u saw a dgp wearing COAS badges. because in india no dgp wears COAS badges which r ASHOKA,A STAR AND CROSS SOWARDS.

YES director ib has these badges, but he is too ashamed to wear uniform and mostly in civil dress

Anonymous said...

@annony...at 12:55

1. so what do u suggest v adhere to the old promotion rates and let others keep getting promotions at flying rates...
2. friend if IAS is becoming director today at 13yrs of service, r u trying to suggest going by the old times we should continue to be lt col at 21 yrs.
3. can u assure that govt of india will pay a major with 13 yrs of service the pay equal to a director, when they r unwilling to do it for lt col today.
4. the only soln is TO de-link rank and grade pays and make it time bound. the ranks can stay for internal functioning of army.
5. when in unified command the cpo/pmf has to come under the local army man..irrespective of his rank.


Anonymous said...

the day is not far away when our chiefs will be equated with the director of IB... in fact a BSF officer was telling me sometime that he/ she is the seniourmost IPS and equal to our chief.. and wont listen otherwise

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous

....there is no denying that a maj gen cannot be a camp comdt...

Who knows? With 80 men, once upon a time the Camp Comdt was a Lt/Capt. Now a full Col does the same job, albiet of the TS variety.

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous

there is no denying that a maj gen cannot be a camp comdt...

Who knows?!! There were times when a Camp Comdt with 80 men placed under him, was a Lt/Capt. Now the same job is performed by a Full Col albiet of the 'TS' variety. And mind you, he is still not the OC Troops which is performed by Dy Cdr of the 'Selected' variety.

Degradation has been all around!

Anonymous said...

Read this and make your own conclusions.EC commissioned officers were required to go through SSB once again after 5 years service in order to get permanant commission.Those who were "selected" served as regular officers and retired mostly as Majors at the age of 50 years.Only a miniscule No made it to Colonels rank.Those who Were "rejected" were luckier indeed.Many from among those rejected by Army joined BSF and rose to the ranks of IG/DIG. Higher appoints in BSF were offered to army before these being given to IPS officers.Army brass for reasons best known to them did not accept the offer.

Anonymous said...


1. we all crying degradation-degradation of ranks.
2. this is bcoz pay has been directly linked with rank.
3. delink the two after that even a major with 16 yrs of service drawing grade pay of 10000/- can be camp comdt.
4. after this the rank obssessed INDIAN ARMY OFFRs WILL NOT VE ANY PROBLEM.

there is no need for babus to degrade us , v capable to doing it our self, as v ve done in past.

i remember a senior offr once said col at 26yrs should not be allowed to wear collar dogs or be given the blue ones to wear.!!!! this is our basic problem and many senior who happen to be decision makers suffer from such incurable diseases.

TOP GUN said...

@Harry and Digvijay,
i am in total support of KMPods your deeds speaks more then what you are putting on your shoulders... if you compare these things than what about the private security chap who is standing on gate and checking people is putting on the rank badges equalent to capt or maj what do you think that we degraded capt or maj.
It is infact that they are always aspining to be in that rank which they can never achieve that rank in life time... so they are feeling happy by putting these ranks .. simiarly police alway have infiriority complex so let them what s ever they wear.... " Deads always speek louder then Dikhawa"

Harry said...


Sir, we are NOT talking about private security here. What they wear is irrelevant, some of them even wear crossed baton and sword!! its for the Govt to pass legislation in this regard i.e to prevent misuse of uniform and badges of rank by private security agencies! I am only talking of other Central Govt agencies like State Police, CPOs etc. That still remains a sore point, you may ignore it at your own peril (some of our seniors did and the results are before us now) !!

I rest my case.

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep Sir,

With due regards to the utterly selfless and yeoman service you are rendering to the OG fraternity, someone smelling of arrogance and unfathomable jealousy against his own meritorious Jawans has, out of his shallow head, salted wounds and unknown pains, gone on to the extent of commenting elsewhere in this blog that tenth pass jawans are being allowed to rise to the rank of Brigadier. He also felt as to how a jawan could transform himself to behave like and discharge the functions of a Brigadier. In fact he is either unaware or stayed short of disseminating to the readers that worthy jawans have risen, are rising and will rise from the ranks even to Generals/Admirals/Air Mshls let alone Brigs, Cols et al. As for their educational qualifications, he must be aware by now that innumerable strength of Jawans (sailors and airmen included) are today better qualified than most officers in the forces with MBA, LLM, LLB, MCA, MPhil and such other degrees and Graduate jawans are again countless like stars in the sky - all at their own expense and initiative. He may be aware that until not very long ago NDA entry was meant for 10th pass and many of general officers still in service hold that basic qualification insofar as civil qualification is concerned. It is a different matter altogether that they were awarded B.Sc NDA on passing out. Most jawans have been joining after passing Intermediate with high percentage, if not graduation. They also undergo various training courses later that are affiliated to and recognised by various prestigious universities. We all know that many great men have studied under street lights and done wonders in their lives. Let us not start axing our own legs.

With high regards and apologies. xyz

Rajababu said...

dear all including Navdeep

Pse do not compare other services and degarde ourselves. we should silently work behind the scenes like the IAS and IPS and get the required benefits without much public outcry. the more we cry in public domain, the more we are regarded as weak kneed/helpless and branded cribbers. I hope sense prevails.

By the way Harry welcome to blogging!!

Anonymous said...

Dear Sirs,

I have full respect for top brass of IAS and IPS cadres for what they have achieved...Over last 60 years plus they have been able to elevate themselves that shows their vision...everyone has the right to grow, isn'tit.... it is our poor leadership who can not think beyond 365 days... and the worst is, most of them still dont seem to have learnt...
Young Officer

Anonymous said...

I definitely agree with Mr XYZ. How many of us have work profile that matches with our eduction background. I dont think more than 25%. Balance 75% have work profile totally different from what they studied. Its what you have gained from your experience , helps you in performing higher duties. So even if a jawan with 10th as educational qualification has gained enough from his experiece to handle work of higher caliber, there is no harm in taking him to any heights. Those who dont agree with me are probably the one who feel experience comes with number of years. ( and not what u gained in those years)

Anonymous said...

Thanks to NAVDEEP for the relevent info.
So,instead getting into wasteful activity of self inflicting and internal criticism , do look fwd in the direction to correct and rectify the slip.
This has to be done by diverse methods and acts/activities by everybody effected.You dont expect some body to do every thing and give it in your hand ;like....


Exercise your mental faculties in the right direction and some action individually and in larger numbers.Mere pleading/seeking/crying....etc would not yield. YOU HAVE TO SUPPLEMENT BY MORE ACTIVE WAYS.
If the persons effected say they dont know ;what to do ? ;then you dont deserve.
Therefore,do act/action. Many comments are ....bbb.....

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,
Every where we have been seeing IAS/IPS bashing by most of us .One point which we seem to forget is that 6cpc had recommended pb3 upto Brig.But it was the shrewdness of IAS only that to get better benifits they changed the recommendations of 6cpc and brought in pb4 for their cadre for which pb3 was recommended. The overflow of this is that now lt col to brigs wheteher serving or retd also will get get the benifit of pb4. Can you imagine had these people accepted the recommendations of 6cpc then pb4 for lt col and beyond would have been a dream , to become reality in 7cpc or the new AF pay commission.
so as gentlemen let us not forget that they also have contributed to our cause though un-intentionally.

Thanks and regards

Anonymous said...

maj navdeep if we are compairing ourself with police we are degrading our self but for comparision we must see how many generalin1937,47,67andsoon .similarly allother post also

Anonymous said...

Very well said. I think we need to be very careful in expressing our views. This forum must not be allowed for sowing discontent amongst the armed fraternity. Please remember, this is not a close forum. So please take care of sensibilities of all specially our own comrades in arms

Anonymous said...



Anonymous said...

And what about you people creating mess with promotion and equivalency aspects of poor GREF cadre of Border Roads Organisaion. Kindly give up your pre-independance selfish mentality.

Anonymous said...

Son to Dad:-

Oh ! It is about grabbing of cake(NATIONAL)by IAS,IPS & politicians and not giving to mil.
*s-The MIL with all that takat and guns cannot grab their share of cake?
*d-You see,they have to stand at the borders and protect the (NATIONAL) cake from Pakistanis,Chinese,Bangladeshis &terrorists .Besides they are far away at borders on snow mountins and cake is cut at Delhi.

*s-bechera jawan & kisan do not get cake and ice cream ?

*d-they get dal:roti.

*s-Then I will go to IAS or IPS .

That is kahani of two steps slide on the ladder.

kmpods said...

Dear All
Firstly apologies. I was wrong regarding the rank badges. it was a poor photograph in a news paper in which I wrongly interpreted an additional star after the Ashoka.
Secondly the point still remains. If the fact excites such violent outbursts then we need to introspect. We as a group are very status and rank conscious. In any one to one meeting it is quite amusing to see the discomfort between two officers till the relative seniority is established. Some of my hot headed colleagues are missing the woods for the trees. What I had said was that by comparing ourselves with everybody we are only degrading ourselves. Cant we exhibit more maturity ?
Incidentally, Harry, it was the Jawan who said Brig sahab wants to meet the CO.
And Also the Paramilitary DIG has equal no of troops (even if PMF) under him if not more. And his financial powers etc are generally at the same scale. ....... I too seem to be joining the game.

The initial issue was what Abhinav had said and the debate on the difference in Services and the work done by them. Somehow we have this great ability to look at every issue in a partisan manner.
I would also like to higlight one sentence written by Abhinav " For all of us in uniform, pride in our respective institutions is essential for organizational effectiveness, but it cannot be based on contempt for other institutions that are just as essential to a healthy nation".
We neeed to develop the healthy attitude that he is talking about. While I may not be in complete agreement with everything that Abhinav has said, We must appreciate the depth of his observations. And also if someone has chosen to comment adversely some amount of introspection is reqd.
Incidentally the previous blog was the first for me. I was pleased to see the response it has evoked. And now you have me hooked.
Regards to all

Anonymous said...

I wonder what’s wrong and most fauji’s seem to be the crying lot..

Pals, i saw your latest ‘join the army’ ad on TV. You guys seem to be having a ball of life inside your all hidden cantonments !! golfing, horse riding, shooting, yachting, swimming, billiards… wow!! and yeah… also the great non-stop booooze and 5 star partying (i am told you get paid to get drunk and smoke off your lungs – Sh.. Shhh… Ramdos might be listening).

These ias n ips don’t ever get even close to that kind of royale life style. Now come on!! you all chose this royal lifestyle over better pay packets. You can’t have the cake and eat it too. You joined because you had it in you… I wonder where it’s gone now?

Anonymous said...

A kisan posed a Q to sarpanch-
eh mil walon ka sarcar se kya zagada hai ?
@ unka thanka aur penson sarkari babu se kam milta hai.

@ is HINUSTAN me unko , kuch spesal darja nahi diya ? jaise -minority religion ,SC ,ST, BC...
@ NAHI !
@ eh log jhenda nahi uthate?
@ Ab tak nahi uthaye.
@ ye bat hai.!

Anonymous said...

Dear kmpods,
Was the DGP in OGs then probably it WAS the COAS n not the DGP of the state.


Anonymous said...

The slip is well demonstrated. even a per of below ave vis can see
Now,having seen (ths to NAV);Yeah! Fauji has been down graded,at every stage &time by diverse app and methods.In the past this sort of analysis and comparision was not printed or presented or talked about.Many were ignorent/sleeping/indiifferent/passive/neglegent.....etc.
Now people are realising/awakening ..... of their RIGHTS.

Anonymous said...

i agree with chatterjee...

sometimes i realise the army is trying to hoodwink everyone while getting them in. It shows only the good ways of life but dosen't tell that offrs will be in field half the time...it tells u that ranks till Lt Col are assured and higher promotions are selection grade( like IAS/IPS)..but wont tell that how much percentage will make it to higher ranks....will tell u how much lve u r entitled to.. but wont tell that the lve is a priviledge and not something u can demand..

Understood any joining advertisement will contain only the good and never the bad parts.. but no other organisation disallows the person from quitting after he comes to know of the real facts after joining... also their is no way to protest as you are already under army act.....

I think , had this been a private company , someone would have sued these malpractises.... you cannot just give a rosy picture and then after recrutement tell that it was just a campaign and real life is different and after that dont allow to protest or quit........

I am not against the army. But the tendencies of malpractices in the army must be curbed. I request Maj Navdeep to give his views in this regard.

Rajababu said...

Every body can see what i said earlier. few guys like chaterjee and company have already started thinking negative about services as we go overboard in criticising others rather than introspecting.

Anonymous said...

I'm neither in Army nor in IPS, but regarding the reduction in rank, I'd like to put forth some points. Pre-independence, Colonel level officer headed the police force of a whole state/province, but post-2006 Lt. General level officer is doing the same job. Since independence, population steadily increased so as the no. of police personnel in the state. I've read somewhere that there is a standard created by UN that no. of police personnel to be deployed in a state depends on its population. Also no. of laws/rules to be implemented/enforced has increased post-independence. Could it be the reason of the degradation of army rank OR up-gradation of police rank OR an effort to bring parity in workload of a Lt. General and a DGP. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
Thank you

Unknown said...

I had discharge 4rm job after completing 10 yrs 11 month.can i applied for csd card and echs card.if yes how can i gain it & can i eligible for ex servicemen.my joining date 22nd jan 2004 and date of discharge 31st dec 2014.plz suggest me.i worried about it.