Feel free to contribute on burning issues concerning the armed forces. Contributions would be acknowledged - Use the 'Comments' tab or email navdeepsingh.india[at]gmail.com. No operational/business/commercial matters to be discussed please. Legal advice/litigation related issues would strictly NOT be published or discussed or entertained. Information on this blog is opinion based and is neither official nor in the form of an advice. This is a pro bono online journal in public service related to issues, policies and benefits, and the idea behind it is to educate and not to create controversy or to incite. Be soft in your language, respect Copyrights.

Sunday, September 21, 2008

We've hit 1,50,000 and perhaps good news for Lt Colonels in the offing !!

-

This blog has hit the 1,50,000 mark. Thank You.

And there may be good news for Lt Colonels in the offing in September itself. The issue of upgradation of Lt Cols/ Wg Cdrs / Cdrs to Pay Band-4 may be resolved by the end of this month. Keep your fingers crossed and thank your Chiefs for their efforts. The Defence Minister thankfully has already taken up the following core issues with the Finance Ministry :-

a) Upgradation of Lt Colonels to Pay Band-4
b) Upgradation of Grade Pays of officers till the rank of Brigadier
c) Placing Lt Generals in the newly created Higher Administrative Grade Plus
d) Improving the pensionary benefits of PBOR

In the meanwhile, have a look at this from 'Indian Express' today.
Also see this from 'The Hindu'.

-

60 comments:

KD said...

Congrats, Navdeep ! Keep it up, we have just rolled up our sleeves. The best is yet to come...

Anonymous said...

Your blog has been the information life line for many of us. You kept our hopes alive when others were trying to burry them. Please continue this blog for betterment of services

Good job

Anonymous said...

i m sure, out of 1.5 lacs hits, hits fm Lt Cols alone wud b 80 %..wht say u guys..

Anonymous said...

RS
congrats! navdeep for keeping us updated on recent updates. Keep the armed forces flying high.

Lt Col G Kameswara Rao (retd) said...

Well Done, Navdeep-- Please keep it up. Very informative and up-to-date news given in the blog is of utmost use to all of us.The implementation of MOD notification should be kept in abeyance by the service HQs till the Lt Col's issue is favorably settled.There is no hurry to get the revised pay / pension and it can wait beyond 1st oct. till the anomaly is satisfactorily settled.

asyt said...

ozxxftWell now everybody knows the fact that the anomaly in the armed forces pay fixation was actually an error. Since accepting the error also meant taking responsibility for it, everybody propagated it as factually correct. Govt should forgive the people behind this blunder and correct is as soon as possible as is expected out of a mature democracy. This will go a long way in strengthening the country as a whole. The govt has tried to put smile in faces of farmers by the loan waiver, now its turn of the soldiers. It takes decades to built the trust between people and a silly mistake to snap it in a second.

Anonymous said...

This issue has further lowered the already non existant credibility of the secretaries (IAS), be it Defence Secretary or any other.This attempt on backstabbing armed forces shows their capability of drilling a hole in the plate from which they eat!!! As Navdeep said just keep UR fingers crossed as they wouldn't let it happen without RIDERS.

ToTheDeath said...

Well done, Navdeep. Keep our flag flying high. Another feather in your many-feathered cap!
Yes, Lt Col GK Rao, we should wait until the issue is resolved. Always strike when the iron is hot and keep on hitting till you hammer down the opposition. This letter from MOD is another attempt by babooze to fix us. At present the pressure is on MOD to break our resolute stand for PB-4. Once we retract from our 'unwillingness' to implement PB-3 then we can all kiss goodbye to PB-4. Indian Ambush Service babooze is at it again but there is always a faster gun in the next town!

DEEPAKRAICHOWDHARY said...

Dear Maj Navdeep Singh

It,s Goog News. Bravo!Chiefs are requested to stick to the guns/not to implement notification for defence till disparity removed and MoD should pressurise the Govt to clear all the anomalies well in time to implement 6 cpc notification for all defence personnel to be paid on 01 Oct 08.

Anonymous said...

So far well Done by taking a stand Not To Implement CPC by our Chiefs but at this CRITICAL juncture when there is tremendus pressure on them to imlement, WE (ALL OFFICERs) need to reassure our Chiefs that entire Defence Forces are united and standing behind them. They should not accept any shrewed proposal undermining our status. Let these Babooze be warned they dare not even think of settling scores by initiating any action against our Chiefs, else there mey be CATASTROPHE for these GADAARS.!!!

Anonymous said...

DEFENCE NOTIFICATION SHOULD NOT BE IMPLEMENTED TILL THE TIME DEFENCE ANAMOLIES ARE NOT REMOVED

Col_30 said...

Hello all! I fully subscribe to this opinion that our chiefs should now cow down with the latest Memo of UPA. As has been rightly understood this is a ploy to let the things start moving once again and there after they will have all the time for conferences and meeting at leisure. The point will then be lost forever or we will be told that the same will be rectified by the Seventh Pay Com in 2018. Therefore our chiefs have to stand firmly on the ground till our just demands are met. If at all any action against our chiefs is contemplated and we come to know of it, my request to all my ESMs incl Ex Offrs would be to court arrest in Delhi on one particular day. We are lacs in numbers. So let us see how many of us react to this proposal.This blog and media has brought all of us together on one platform. Let us use it.

Anonymous said...

I am sure the Chiefs will not accept this love letter. After taking such a strong stand they will not buckle down. They must have factored in such a scenario. If we do give in then we become a laughing stock for the nation.

Anonymous said...

These 2 days r very crucial. must not give up now at this stage.

Anonymous said...

services now should understand that united stand alone can bear fruit . we stood together and could be noticed otherwise this also could have gone down as petty fight between army/navy and airforce.it is high time that we talk of association amongst service officers and between pbor within the democratic framework , after all we have to have some forum to voice opinion and take up our issues outside the organised and stereo type ,rank conscience welfare associations

Anonymous said...

This blog site has done a wonderful job....Thanks a ton, Maj Navdeep...Am sure that, but for your informative & timely updates we would not have known about the intricacies of the CPC and the back stabbing that the Babus had planned on us....Now that we have taken the fight this far, we should not give up...All for one and one for all!!!! All the best guys.....and Navdeep ...keep up the good work!!!!

Venkat said...

Congratulations Navdeep.

So far there has been no proper forum through which the issues of defence forces could be voiced. Absence of employees associations for the personnel in uniform has resulted in degradation of their status by successive pay commissions. The sixth pay commission has just hit another nail in the coffin.

It is more than ten years since the last pay commission is implemented. Each and every stage of sixth pay commission workings has taken its own time. There is no need hurry in implementing the report by the defence forces (atleast for officers). We are with the Chiefs and would stand by them in their endeavour to bring justice to the armed forces. Let us not give into the delay tactics of the bureacracy. It is high time the armed forces assert themselves. This is the correct time for this to happen. Let us not buckle under the pressure. What if, it takes a couple of more months. Never mind. Let us get our due.

LtCols are not equivalent to Director(IAS), SE etc. In fact it is they who are equivalent to LtCols. A grievous mistake has been committed by not placing LtCols in proper band. Let this be corrected. In fact the Govt should stop implementation of Pay Commission in the country until this blunder is corrected.

We fully support the Chiefs. Please fight till you win.

Anonymous said...

What if the MOD pressurises the forces to implement the recommendation as it exist now. I would repeat my appeal to all Lt Cols,Wing Cdrs and Commanders to stand firm behind our chiefs and decline to accept the salary in the revised band of PB-3.

Anonymous said...

Astrologers have predicted political turmoil in the country.
Are we moving in a direction which will prove their prediction correct.

Anonymous said...

All this drama of degradation of Armed Forces is being played with the approval of PM.Do not go on face value.Do not mistake him for your well wisher.PM abd FM in conivance with Babus,Media and other political parties are cutting you to size.This is being done deliberately.
At times I tend to believe whether our Chiefs are also party to it.I pray that I am wrong.

Anonymous said...

@ All
Do not forget, our PM was "Baboo" too and so was our "FM", both were baboos, rest all is self explanatory

Anonymous said...

this is probably first time when opposition has been totally silent on the issue of degradation of Defence Forces.Howcome they have't criticised the 6 CPC/Govt decision / the raw deal given to the Defence. No comment /article has appeared any where.

kartikey said...

not only political parties in opposition even media is totally quite on this issue. naturally it may not give them desired parity or may they also believe in licking only IAS and netas

Anonymous said...

Sadly none of the MP's,seem to be bothered about the plight of the Armed Forces.However one MP atleast seems to have atleast his heart and head in the right place.

Mr Rajeev Chandrasekhar has quoted Kautilya in his article in the Bussinessworld dated 19-25Aug 08.
Kautilya,the great political strategist,said to Chandragupta Maurya centuries ago:"The day the soldier has to demand his dues,it will be a sad day for Magadha.For then on that day,you willhave lost all moral sanction to the King. "

Anonymous said...

ITis nice tohear that mod /DM has sent a letter to FM . but the stumbling block will be FM/ PC AND his officers, only PM CAN resolve the issues of services.LET US HOPE FOR THE BEST.ASfor as political parties are concerened ,the less said ,itis better, all are same .

Anonymous said...

MEDIA wants sensational news only. political parties/ MP WANTS vote bank politics. WE MAY be large in number ,but scattered. HENCE they are not concerned.

Anonymous said...

Indian Express is again at dirty game.
Some article on page3 regarding PBORS not happy regarding holding notification.
Gupta ji has shut his grocery shop and is after Army.
Why not someone allot him a contract for supply of fresh to forward posts to keep him quiet for sometime.
(NO offence meant to the Gupta community).

Anonymous said...

WE HAVE EX-SERVICEMEN AS a CM OF a state, he is also not bothered.THATis politics.

Anonymous said...

we must continue to back up our chiefs for whatever they have done/doing

Anonymous said...

THE PARTY WHICH bounced back to power on the sentiment of KARGIL and 100s of youngesters sacrifices isalso silent on all issues of defence personal.BARKA who shouts with her mouth wide open at all non issues is also, silent.sad state of affairs.

kranti said...

Nice to read the sentiments on this blog. But believe me, what the chiefs are doing is unexpectedly great. We have been brought up in a manner that we don't have the strength in our knees to get up, words in our mouth to speak up and the courage to voice dissent.(We can only be good at our op task). In this background their action is worth a ton of salutes.
What if they are forced to retract their stand. Will our soldiers back them up. Will we all march to delhi, to their homes and at least show our solidarity. Do we have the conscience to ensure that no force could force them down.
Or are we all waiting for the Chiefs to bat for our side. If the side wins we benefit. If the decision is delayed and Pay recommendations forced down the throat as it is then the Chiefs lose. And we just discuss it on this blog.
Youngsters-Rise. Its time.

Anonymous said...

@ kranti

You have missed out a deafening silence from the Ex-servicemen based in the capital. Is it because they do not have anything to gain?

Anonymous said...

Soul Curry
My soldier
A bout of separation from her fiancé brings home the value of the brave, Indian soldier for Charushilla Narula
TIMES NEWS NETWORK

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high, into that heaven of freedom my father, let my country awake.
— Rabindranath Tagore THIS is the story of my soldier. The above lines have been my r e f e r e n c e point to patriotism and quite naturally, I have always harboured deep regard for the armed forces. However, I can easily say that my first true understanding of their world developed when I got engaged to an Army officer. Totally oblivious of the trials and tribulations of an Army lifestyle, I was happy dreaming of the laurels of heroism, courage and discipline that were indeed second nature to my man — my soldier.
Last year, he went for a year’s UN mission to Africa. It was a moment of great pride and celebration as he became one of the few chosen. No sooner did he reach there, I began to understand the pain of distance that every wife, child and mother must be experiencing as her loved one fulfils his duty at the borders, at distant postings and at places where sometimes even basic communication was wanting. As he shared with me scenes from this Land of the Rising Sun — civil feuds, people slaughtering each other over food, shelter, oil fields, hidden political agendas, lack of basic amenities, child soldiers and complete hooliganism — I could only conclude that he was fighting someone else’s battle. I was constantly hassled by questions, like why he was there and not with his family and what was the point of it all… couldn’t someone else do it?
I searched the TV channels for a glimpse of him or his mission, only to realise that it did not really matter whether my soldier was living a life that was worse than being alive; what mattered was that Kareena was getting married to Saif Ali Khan and Angelina Jolie was having twins. I became particularly irritable with the average Indian addicted to the cosmopolitan life, who takes everyday and everything for granted. The complete hollowness of our urban life disturbed me.
I realised that I was guilty of this too, till someone of my own was affected. But, then, isn’t every soldier our very own? Have we become so self-consumed that we are immune to the sacrifice that he has made by choosing this profession so that we stay protected? No one really tries to dwell into what makes a soldier guard that peak at Siachen or brave the enemy at LoC. Please note, the soldier moves because his heart moves. However, his heart beats only when he knows that his family is happy and provided for. Sadly enough, the pay commission has made him a negotiator and pushed him to demand what is rightfully his.
I asked my soldier, “Doesn’t all this agitate you? Make you want to quit?” And, he replied, “You know what? If tomorrow, someone falls in front of me on a busy street, I will go and pick him up. I will not think of why others didn’t come to his rescue.” I stand corrected. He is not fighting someone else’s battle. He is acting upon things that really matter to someo n e, somewhere. He does not care why his friend or his brother is not doing the same. He has made this choice for his country, for his people, for himself. Let us respect his choice, salute it, for they make the world and our country a better place to live in.

Anonymous said...

@ All
It is totally beyond any ordinary and educated person's imagination, as to what exactly brewing in the Indian Armed Forces
JaiHind

Anonymous said...

Are you guys aware that a blog by name of "pragmatic.nationalinterest.in" is running an anti Forces compaign.
Request all brother officers to have a look on what rubbish he is writing and give him a befitting reply in the language he understands.
He is part of an "Anti Forces compaign" launched by vested interest, who want to destablise the country by demolishing the last pillar.

kranti said...

Just for a while think that the Chief, one of them, decides to resign over the poor response of the govt that be. What will the rest of the soldier clan do. Are we prepared to take any action. Have we thought of any plans. Do you think something can be done. Or we wait for the exservicemen do the voicing.
Next -do you know that the battle is towards the immediate benefit of Lt Cols, later to the officers who would one day be Lt Cols. The rest of the soldier clan doesnot stand to gain anything. Only lose the little dole that would have come to them before the festival season. This is the popular feeling till now.
Is there an awareness campaign to make every soldier understand the core of the dispute. Has anything been done to make them understand that this battle is not about a few bucks for the officers? Why this curtain over the information on what is happening. There are anamolies in the Hav pay too. Have we made any attempt to tell everyone that this issue is also under considertion. The media is only talking about Lt Cols and Lt Gens.
Think youngsters. Where do we need to improve?

Anonymous said...

Dear All,
Join Hands to deal with this pragmatic guy at the thread below.He should not be allowed to get awy!

pragmatic.nationalinterest.in

Ajith said...

1. Defence services is right in taking up the glaring anomaly that has come to exist in the new pay structure after the CoS revised the recommendation of VI CPC with the highest political leadership. The honourable Finance Minister is duty bound to explain to the public in general and the affected defence personnel in particular how such an anomaly has creeped in to the pay structure even after the matter has been dealt with by the CoS.
The clarifications offered by the Finance Ministry is nothing more than a farce. Its more like the reply ‘Onion is ten a Kg when asked how much potato cost’.
Is it Finance Ministries case that the much publicised MSP exclusively introduced as a new pay (and hence no arrears are paid) to supposedly compensate the hardships faced by defence personnel was only to compensate a lowerly placed basic pay band? Or is it that the civilian officers are placed in a higher pay band to compensate for their not getting the MSP. What a beautiful concept is this MSP then? Is it the case of Finance Ministry that the civilian officers should be compensated by placing them in a higher pay band for their not getting posted to high altitudes like Siachen Glacier and Submarines which and only that entitle any one to get those special allowances for those limited period?
Is it the case of Finance Ministry that a Lt Col who was getting a gross pay of Rs 28086 if after VI CPC gets a gross of Rs 45000 should keep his mouth shut even if his equivalent in civil and paramilitary who was getting a gross of less than Rs 28086 now after VI CPC stands to get more than Rs 50000?
Finance Ministry has added all sort of allowances that possibly could a defence person get in their attempt to show that defence officers can take perceived fatter pay packet and portray defence personnel as greedy for money. It is surprising that various other allowances like Family Planning Allowance etc are found missing from the list which was intended to show that we ultimately get a fatter pay.
Honourable Finance Minister may note that it is not the fatter pay that defence officers are demanding. On the contrary they are demanding restoration of status and parity with their equivalents in civil and paramilitary services. If it means abolishion of the so called MSP and restoartion of basic scale parity, then be it. At least the Finance Ministry would not have to boast of having given something special exclusively to defence personnel to compensate for their hardships.
We do not want you to compensate for our hardships because the hardships that we go through are beyond fathomable for people like you and no amount of monetary benefits can compensate the family life missed by us, good education missed by our children, best medical facility missed by us and the well settled peaceful life that you all get to enjoy and missed by us. Yes we get special compensation for serving in Siachen Glacier. We welcome you all to Glacier to enjoy our hospitality and warmth and take home the same allowances if you choose. And for the fatter pay packet that we take home, we appeal to all of you to encourage and motivate your sons and daughters to join the forces and take similar fat pay packets to your homes as well.
To my beloved fiends in the forces, it will take more than a battle to correct this anomaly. The forceful nature of the Finance Ministries rejection of our genuine grievances goes to show that the anomaly is not an error rather it is deliberate. You can only wake up a sleeping man and it is next to impossible to wake up one who is pretending.
Is our Political leadership sleeping? I wish they are.

Anonymous said...

dear navdeep
i have gone through Hindu news article .it defies all Army ethos when we have to take help of balatant lies like SEs working under Ltcols ,to get few hundred rupees benefit.every one knows that Ltcol GEs and DCWEs are working under SEs .our service chiefs ,first stop this unhealthy truth.sooner or later this truth will come in front of media and public .how will then we keep our head high ?

Anonymous said...

Look at this

News article in Delhi Edition of Times of India

FIGHT OVER PAY PARITY
Forces want new pay scale to be held back
TIMES NEWS NETWORK

New Delhi: Even as civilian government employees await October 1 to get their new pay scales and 40% arrears under the 6th Pay Commission, the armed forces are holding firm they would like the pay notification for them to ‘‘be kept in abeyance’’ till the ‘‘four core issues’’ are resolved. The armed forces, of course, are keeping their fingers crossed that the flurry of meetings their chiefs have had with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, defence minister A K Antony and finance minister P Chidambaram in recent days will soon lead to ‘‘corrective measures’’ by the Cabinet.
‘‘We are hoping for a positive response from the political leadership after being shortchanged by the bureaucracy. In the meetings, the Prime Minister and the ministers conveyed they understood our concerns,’’ said a top officer. There are four main grouses of the forces. One, they are upset that the ‘‘extant parity’’ of Lt-Colonel rank officers has been lowered by retaining them in Pay Band-3 (Rs 15,600-39,100), while raising similarly placed civilian and paramilitary officers to PB-4 (Rs 37,400-67,000).
Two, they are seeking ‘‘status quo ante’’ in the pension of PBOR (personnel below officer rank) since their proposed lateral entry into paramilitary and central police organizations after retirement is yet to materialize.
Three, the forces have also sought restoration of parity in grade pay for lower and middle rung Service officers with their civilian counterparts, who are going to get more as per the new pay scales. And four, they are also angry at the fact that all directors-general of police and their equivalents have been placed over Lt-Generals by the creation of a new ‘‘higher administrative grade-plus’’.

Anonymous said...

Are the National leadership waiting for something drastic to happen.Why this dead silence.

Anonymous said...

hi i m also in defence but on the other means lower cast of defence
PBOR
everybody is behind Officer how is getting cake and also want the basket also.

first we segregated with the MSP means we r doing 1/3 of hardship than officer what is that when all in same force and also we r getting less than nurses why???????????
second in Navy (arti/ diploma entry- iii/ II/I as per NI are chief rating ) r given by the raw deal , they given the 3400 grade where thier counter part are given higher grade pay.
third , in govt gezette as per old pay scale those who is getting 5000 and above r placed in higher group of 4200 grade where in navy these Art/ diploma? mechnisium who is supervisor and man behind all the sucessful operation completion havinf basic pay 5120 are given with 3400 grade pay and all previlage given to grade pay 4200 are seized.
fourth officer who is availing all facility are want more and more

Anonymous said...

This ba***** anonymous @9.10 AM is a fake.Our jawans write better English.

Col_30 said...

This man Anonymous at 0910 hrs has a valid point but he should write his views in Roman Hindi instead. He must also remember that there is a shortage of 12000 officers not PBOR that is why this blog is mainly talking of officers. If there are such glaring anomolies in respect of PBORs then their case also should be discussed.

Anonymous said...

DRDO- SC B (8000-13500)=CAPT9600+400 SC C(10000-15200)=MAJOR11600+800 SCD(12000-16500)=LT.COL 13500+1600 SCE(14300-18300)=COL-15100+2000 SCF (164OO-20000=BRIG16400+2400 SC G(18400-22400)=MAJ.GEN (18400-22400) DISTINGUISHED scientist 22400-22500. SURVEY OF INDIA DSS(8000-13500) =CAPT SUPTD.SURVEYER(10000-15200)=MAJOR DY.DIRECTOR(12000-16500)=LT.COL(13500+1600) DIRECTOR/SR.DIRECTOR(14300-18300)=COL/BRIG(15100+2000/ 16400+2400) Addl.surveyer .Gen(18400-22400)=MAJ.GEN.(18400-22400). SURVEYER GEN.22400-24000=LT.GEN. THESE are the equivalent ranks in these dept for past 40years or more.Armed forces are given higher pay because ofthere nature of duties,these has been made clear in letters addressed to all formations by MOD. THESEcan byseen by all officers if they go through old corrspondance ,if available in the units. MAJ.NAVADEEP YOUR views .

Anonymous said...

WHY NOT WE have parity in promotions with civilian counterparts. MAJOR-4YEARS LT.COL-9YEARS COL-13YEARS BRIG--16YEARS MAJ.GEN-20YEARS. THERE after by selection to higher posts

Anonymous said...

@9.53AM LETS NOT COMMENT on any person he has expressed his views ,if his grivenance is genuine, as officers lets take up the issue.LETS have healthy discussion.IT our moral responsibility to look after our troops.

bill said...

DearAll Serving & ESM,
Just addressing the so called "Core Isssues"will not resolve scores of major & minor Annomalies(delibrately created by Babus)in the CPC eg not making MSP applicable from 1.1.06 &thus denying huge arrears,lower Grade Pay of various trades in PBOR etc.More annomalies are going to crop up once Babus of MOD(on orders of IAS cartel) draft implementation instructions,particularly in fixing salary of various ranks,with differing seniority, within same Pay Bands.The 6CPC(& COS,Review commettee,Anomalies commettee etc)has delibrately created such a mess of Armed Forces issues that they cannot be sorted out piecemeal.There is an inescbable need to have a seperate Pay Commission for Armed Forces & PMF as thier nature of work & functioning(24x7) cannot be understood by chairborne IAS Babus.For the present mess we must insist on a fresh & full time bound review of all issues by another Review Committee consisting of prominent non IAS persons with reps from Armed Forces as also ESMs.All of us must be prepared to accept the resultant delay in getting our revised salaries.We must resolutely support our Chiefs,no matter what happens. Remember we are at war with the Babus,initiated by them.

Anonymous said...

All civilian doctors will be promoted to SAG (GP 10000) what about the military doctors. Surprisingly doctors in civil cloths employed by DGAFMS will be SAG after 20 yrs of service!

Anonymous said...

who stopping us also. If we are promoted ,then MAJ.GEN WILL be sitting in MI room,have heart.

Anonymous said...

@5.42PM GOOD JOKE. KEEP IT UP. IT WILL BE ONE MAN ARMY.

Anonymous said...

poor civilian doctors, 5th pay commission recommendation s are not yet been implemented by DGAFMS .LETS us wish them good luck.LETSus not envy about our cousins.

Anonymous said...

@5.42pm,then we willbe keeping two stars to our two wheelers or our four wheelers.THEN GENs will racing out from MH/FD.AMB,MIROOM.at1.30pm.

Anonymous said...

grvv@440 &5.42,wah ! kya scene.I must pack my baggage before that happens. 20 years SAG IS like the saying ,no wife ,no daughter ,son -in -lawS name is BANTA SINGH.FOR civilian doctors under DGAFMS ,5th pay recommendations ,dyanamic assured career progression has not been implemented by BABUS IN UNIFORM AT L,BLOCK SO FAR .SO DELHI IS TOO FAR.SO BABU IS A BABU, WEATHER a civilian or a babu in uniform. IF L BLOCK , brings down number of years of COL. SELECTION to to that of other arms ,it will be a BONUS.

Anonymous said...

@4.40PM, CAPT/ MAJOR/LT.COL/COL/BRIG/MAJ.GEN. WILLBE ADVISOR to CO (COL) THEN ADMS will be LT.GEN. DDMS-CORE-????????? . DDMS-COMMAND--??????? .AHQ-????????? .LETS us not imagine that situation.lets not compare with civilians.

Anonymous said...

Ther is no need to put on ranks of Maj Gen, but pay band of 10000 should be implemented as for cghs doctors. army should broaden its views and should not put obstacles in the way of any individuals / corps aspirations. Infact all Lt Col / Col /Brigs with more than 20 yrs service should approach court at the earliest as DGAFMS and COAS is very likely not going to implement it. If not, they should allow all desiring doctors to leave the services at their will / after completion of bond. I am sure they will get lot more and better doctors waiting to join such elite services and treat patients with only few available drugs.

Anonymous said...

This is what army is best at.pull others down.they will never allow doctors this benefit .they have already taken away a 2 yr advantage from doctors

RDS said...

@ Maj Navdeep

Despite several requests from you some of the commentators on this blog have been crossing limits of decency and are indulging in mudslinging and calling names/abuses. It is my earnest request to all to learn respecting the views of others. As mentioned by you in some other blog “ every single service is playing its part in the system and the discussion should be kept dignified. Abusive or derogatory comments on any service do not reflect correctly on the system as a whole.
Nevertheless, I must appreciate your dedication in pursuing the cause for taking Lt Cols to PB-4. Unfortunately your analysis is based on emotions and not the hard facts. The following analysis presented by me is a presentation of logic and hard facts. You and other commentators are entitled to differ being part of democracy but please maintain decency.
The issue in question has two dimensions, firstly - higher pay for service officers for difficult working conditions, short service career etc. etc. and secondly - status parity.

There is no denying that the people in services deserve better compensation compared to their counterparts in civil employment for reasons known to all and discussed in length on this blog site. Successive pay commissions have accordingly maintained the edge in pay scales for defence personnel. Certain other allowances and facilities are also granted to armed forces on account of special and unique service conditions ( The amount of these compensations may be a matter of debate) . It is also simultaneously true that their can be no direct one to one comparison between the two categories based on pay drawn/pay scales. Both categories have distinct responsibilities/ duties and no direct comparison based on pay drawn is possible and should therefore not be attempted. The pay scales of armed forces therefore cannot be and should not be determinants for the responsibility levels in an organisation.
A functional parity, however could be drawn for organisations where both the service officers and civilian officers work together (viz. MoD/ Integerated HQs of MoD(Army/Navy/AF) , BRO, CDA, DGQA, Naval Armt Service, MES, Survey of India, Coast Guards etc.

Having said that, a few comments on the genesis of your analysis based on your following statement in another blog on the same site:-
"While the MoD, for organizations such as MES, DRDO and DGQA has never maintained a clear stand on equivalence, the equation becomes clear and evident by perusing rules of deputation in various other establishments."
Firstly - You have talked of historical precedence somewhere on this blog site. For your information and all others following this blog, there is one order of MoD on functional parity between the two streams. This letter issued by MoD in 1948 defines the level of officers for manning various posts by service officers and civilian officers. According to this letter, following equation was established by the Govt. :
AGE- Capt - AEE (JTS)
GE/OC ESD - Major - EE (STS)
CWE - Lt Col - SE (JAG)

Your argument placing Captains in parity with STS and Major in parity with JAG therefore does not hold ground. Now coming to Lt Cols who were being placed as CWE. Yes, it is true that Lt Cols were at functional parity with civilian SEs but only till the time SEs were in JAG grade. A lot of water has flown down Jhelum since then. You will appreciate that Army started posting Cols as CWEs (Please don't repeat the same argument that that it is internal matter of army and should not be an argument to draw parity), AVSC implementation that had the effect of lowering the working levels for Army officers and a new grade for SEs was introduced. The new grade of SEs was in NFSG (i.e equivalent of Director in civil parlance). With sound logic it translates into functional parity between Lt Col/SE/JAG and Col/SE(SG)/NFSG. BRO headed by a service officer realized this equation and issued functional parity orders accordingly as long back as in 1980. Post 5th CPC the grade erstwhile SEs has been converted to the grade for EE SG which is a promotional post for EEs(STS) and SE (SG)granted to those SEs only who fulfil the criteria equivalent to posts in NFSG in Gp 'A' services. Here again the simple logic translates into functional parity between Col/ SE/ NFSG and Lt Col/ EESG/ JAG.

This was about the historical perspective. Now a few instances of present functional parity:-
As per services own orders (AO 8/85) Cols are working in posts tenable by Dirs and Lt Cols in posts tenable by Jt Dirs. Similarly as per Air HQ orders Air Commodores are working as Principal directors and Gp capt (equivalent of Col) are working as Directors. Same is the status of officers working in NHQ as per orders issued by naval HQs. And remember, this status in not forced upon by IAS but ordered by our own bosses in forces.

I hope I have clarified the functional parity as it exists based on historical as well as present orders.

Secondly - You have raised the issue of rules of deputation followed by various organisations. For your kind information the deputation level in most cases is one level higher and in some cases even more than one level higher) than the post one holds in his/her parent department. It is, therefore perfectly fine if Lt Cols are eligible for deputation to posts equivalent to NFSG or even higher in other departments of GoI. Regarding PSUs/Banks no parallels should be drawn as they have their own functional requirements and are governed by different set of rules.

Thirdly - The main issue of grant of PB4 to Lt Cols. The wide difference between PB3 and PB4 which existed between SAG (Jt Secy) and other officers down the chain according to original recommendations of 6CPC has now descended to NFSG and JAG levels. Without passing my value judgement on applicability of NFSG or JAG to Col/Lt Col rank officers the same wide gap which is justifiably unpalatable now exists between these levels. I also agree with the anomaly pointed out by you and other commentators on this blog that Lt Cols were drawing more pay compared to officers in JAG and even NFSG in the pre-revised scales. Whereas the Lt Cols will still be drawing more pay compared to JAG officers but will be drawing less compared to NFSG officers (Read Directors). This is certainly an anamoly but only with respect to pay drawn and not repeat not in status as already explained in my previous analysis. I also agree that this anamoly can not be removed within the existing framework of rules where if an officer who was drawing more pay in pre-revised scales now draws less pay then his pay is stepped up to the extent of shortfall because this rule can only be applied to officers within the same cadre/service.

Now what is the solution?

I have a few suggestions:-

1) The main culprit for this anomaly is the wide gap between PB3 and PB4. Therefore introduce a new pay band PB-3A for JAG/Lt Cols with such a span which removes this anomaly and also reduces this unpalatable wide gap between PB3 and PB4.

2) If creation of new pay band does not find favour with the powers that be, remove the anomaly by stepping up pay of Lt Cols to the extent of shortfall by grant of personal pay by extending the jurisdiction of anomaly rule to between two different cadres/services.

Again let me point out that the above are my personal views without offence to anyone and everyone is entitled to differ.

Anonymous said...

Iy is totally absurd and baseless and is a blatant distortion of facts.
Pay Scales of Civilian directors and Lt Cols prior to SCPC were:
Civilian Directors: Rs 14300-18300
Lt Cols : Rs 13500-17100
Lt Cols can never be designated as Directors in any organisation.
Rank Pay can never be added to compare seniority.
After AVS committee report,a newly commissioned Army officer can become Lt Col in 13 Years same almost as EE(NFSG)in Civil Services whereas it takes 18-20 years for civilian officers to become Director, which clarifies the things.

Anonymous said...

Top brass of the Armed forces have ganged-up together in Trade union like manner and are clearly defying the authority of the govt.
Armed forces have conveniently concealed the fact that there is special allowance for every act they do besides hefty Military service Pay and Rank pay.