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Saturday, September 19, 2009

Cool ! Teachers in Centrally Funded Technical Institutions (CFTIs) to move into Pay Band-4 after three years of service

Firstly, do not get me wrong. In my (personal and humble) opinion, teachers, and more so teachers of our world-renowned institutes deserve the finest.

The Ministry of HRD, after ‘careful consideration’ of representations (read protests) received from teachers of CFTIs in pursuance of notification of their new scales on 18 August 2009, has decided the following on 16 September 2009 :-

“Assistant Professors in IITs, IISc Bangalore, IIMs, NlTlE Mumbai and IISERs on completion of 3 vears of service shall move to Pay Band of Rs 37400-67000 (PB 4) with an Academic Grade Pay (AGP) of Rs 9000”

So where does this leave the others ? The following is the progression into Pay Band-4 for other services usually in the limelight :

The Defence Services : 13 Years

The Indian Administrative and other All India Services : 13 Years

University Teachers : 12-14 years depending upon qualification

Central Govt Doctors under the Dynamic Assured Progression Scheme (DACP) : 13 Years

Central Govt Medical Specialists under the Dynamic Assured Progression Scheme (DACP) : 06 Years

Teachers of CFTIs : 03 Years

Needless to say, we need the best for the best such as the IITs and IIMs, but would it be fair to allow them to leave behind their other University counterparts by 9 to 11 Years on the basis of ‘protests’ ? A better way out would have been to completely de-link the pay of CFTI staff from the regular scales of others. Hence, instead of Pay Bands on the Central pattern (which naturally encourage comparison with other services), there could have been a totally separate pay-structure, the best in the market and probably corporatised.

Less than a month is what it took the govt to re-notify these revised scales. The notification can be viewed and downloaded by clicking here.

38 comments:

Deepak said...

We have to keep in mind the "Academic Qualification needed".A lot of time is spent to reach the levels of an Assistant Professor and I am sure you have to complete a Phd to join the ranks of Assistant Professor.It is a long process.

arunachalam said...

OMG i wish Kapil Sibal was Raksha Mantri and PBOR would have got 70% letter issued 2 months back b4 COS minutes were released. Earlier i used to think if PC was RM, we would have got better deal than IPS and Para military. Sorry we have to live with want we have. Anthony is too clean,honest and simple and the bureaucrats take him for a ride.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Deepak

Asst Professor is now the entry level appointment for teachers.

In fact, even in the Universities (and Colleges), the post of 'Lecturer' has been abolished and the nomeclature has been changed to 'Asst Prof'.

Anonymous said...

we cann't call him as a teacher,they are highly expert in their field, and highly talented persons.i think they are deserve what they get.because they teach in world's best technical/management campus where everyone dream to reach it. So it is not appropriate to comparison oneself service to these institute.

dbt said...

i think de-linking is the key to most of the problems, in most of the cases

Anonymous said...

joining iit iim require min phd compared to other univ where one can join after post grad
so this is justified
also the people joing r actually the best avail

Regular said...

what if it is a typo, for 3 read 13 ;)

MANISHOJHA said...

Sir,I feel that they are the best talents of the country who have voluntarily sacrificed a plum job to teach the top brains of our nation and foregone a hefty pay package which could have been exponentially higher than what they have been getting uptill now, so I fully support the move.For once, and quite refreshingly, the beneficiaries of the govt magnanimity do not happen to be politicians or IAS officers.

VNatarajan said...

My views are a bit different. I am myself an alumni of one of the earliest IITs. It is the "students" who make the teachers there- This happened many a time when we were students. Students were capable of teaching themselves!- because the cream had been selected to join. In fact very sportive teachers used to say-" we may not be able to answer some of your "searching" questions (our way of ragging the teachers)- but we are here to put you in the proper groove- so that you go up and up on merit!". Today situations are diffrent. Both the merit system of admissions have been diluted- as well as the calibre of teaching has deteriorated. In my opinion, 3 years stipulation is "ridiculous" and even in advanced countries it does not happen that quickly!. What many of us (Scientists in National Surveys/ Organisations- in Govt service have achieved after 30 yrs- to come into PB4 (5 yrs before retirement), our grand-children will reach in 7 yrs (4yrs for ph d after PG and 3 yrs service)!. Good luck to them! Time for me to fight for my Modified Parity in pension with Maj. Generals!Good night!

Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeepji any idea, about the delay in implementation of DACP for Armed Forces Doctors, who incidentally are Central Govt Doctors only?

Anonymous said...

please see this

http://paycommissionupdate.blogspot.com/2009/09/in-cost-cut-timesbureaucrats-hike-their.html

rajaraman said...

I don't grudge the PB 4 pay out for the CFTI Asst Professors with just three years in service as Asst professors. I don't even grudge the so called Academic Grade Pay of Rs. 9000/- for them.

As someone , who has done M Tech from one of the IITs and seen them in close quarters during the fag end of my service in the Army, I reserve my comments about their talents. Not all of them can be even termed average, though most of them are. But that is not the point.

How is it the HRD Ministry which as compared to Defence Ministry is much smaller, is able to pull this off and dole out such a package on their own ,even surpassing the IAS/IPS types (13 years vs 3 years) in such a short time apparently without Cabinet committee sanctions is what is surprising.

When it comes to defence Service personnel, there has to be a high level committee of Ministers, or a high level committee of Secretaries
(with mandatory inclusion of KM chandrasekars & Sushma Naths for adding more anomolies than to solve) and finally we end up with some specially silly doles like Grade Pay of Rs.8000/- for Lt Cols for example. Even after more than a year has passed since 6th Pay commission announced its award, Defence personnel and particularly Jawans ( I don't like to term them PBORs) are not getting even their announced entitlements. Why is it the defence Ministry affairs alone are getting entangled in such a bureaucratic mess, when all others like Judiciary, academicians are having their way in a relatively much shorter time. . what is at fault? is it with the Service HQ , or with IAS ruling the Defence Ministry, or the defence minister himself ? I have no answers. Can anybody enlighten me on this ?

Col Rajaraman

rajaraman said...

Further to my earleir comments.

See this.

http://paycommissionupdate.blogspot.com

The pay hike is that easy when it comes to IAS.

Col Rajaraman

Anonymous said...

sir, a large number Army Educational corps PBORs are post graduate and some are doctorate but they are serving in PB-2 and pb-3 but on demands no one is ready to here them. This is due to a wrong system.

Deepak said...

@Navdeep:

Overall not a bad deal.Also include the Consultancy Fees they receive from Corporates/Govt. , foreign travel/teaching allowances,royalities on paper and books publication etc.

BV Rao said...

I request Mr. Navdeep to provide Comparative statement to reach PB-4 Scale with addl pay of Rs.9000/-.

Harry said...

@ Maj Navdeep

Sir,

Why I got "moderated"?

:(

VNatarajan said...

I wrote some comments- as the one who had studied in the oldest of IITs for 5 years (1956-61)- who has had a close interaction after joining my Govt. service also- and as one acquainted with the the ground truths that matter. I had not made out anything drastically against the system - but certainly the present out-of- turn MOTIVATION for teachers in CFTIs appears to be uncalled for. At best the equity must settle at reasonable levels so that one SEGMENT is not pitched against another! My view is all SEGMENTs which form the vital links for the development,progres, growth, management, sustenance, security etc of the Nation must be treated at near-par and without undue pampering of a few!. Weightage for extra- exceptional talents must be provided but not beyond the limit. WHEN YOU INDUCT THE STUDENTS INTO IITs & IIMs, it was being done in such a fool-proof manner, and so the teachers- good or moderate- did not matter during our/ next generation (my son's times - 1980s - also IITian) times. But in recent years, the dilution of standards may bring in new dimensions and results could be unpredictable. So where was the need to spoecially REWARD the TEACHERS of CFTIs much out of the way! (why my earlier post got moderated is a mystery????)

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@VNatarajan

Which post of yours was moderated ?

@Harry


You know why :-)

Harry said...

@Maj Navdeep

Well Sir its your blog and so you are fully justified in blanking out my comments but I stand by what I wrote and you know it well!!
BTW I wrote nothing unparliamentary.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Harry

I have nothing at all against your comment in question and fully agree with what you say. But as the owner of the blog, I have to look at the larger picture. Calling a particular person pusillanimous, spineless or cowardly would not be a great thing to do in a public domain. Personal opinions are fine, we all have them but placing them in a public arena amounts to slandering an individual who probably has no means of replying back or creating a defence. Would we do this in a newspaper or on TV ? Perhaps not, and hence I have to ensure that these delicate rights of individuals are protected on my blog. It is absolutely open for you to use this medium in any manner that you may like, just avoid harsh adjectives for particular individuals – whether by appointment or by name.

I hope you would understand my predicament.

Anonymous said...

dear navdeep why are we not mentioning about the pbors 70 percent pensionary banifits . if is no where in black and white then what went wrong with the media reports published in all major dailies,

Anonymous said...

Natrajan Sahab and Harry, i don't know whether you would ultimately understand or not but i think this is what made the c box go off air. it was a wonderful medium but the sanctity got lost with only one sided talk - ANTI IAS. think about it - was there anything worthwhile happening on c-box ? only -ve comments about system and no exchange of positive energy. i agree with navdeep's decision to close c-box and strictly moderate other comments.

please do not moderate this.

v_nattu said...

Dear Major Navdeep,
Thanks. There was no omission of my posts. At the same time, I am a bit worried about the "perennial" need for you to maintain a balance or moderate the messages. In the current case also , since the debate is being carried out mostly by bloggers - who in all probability are not "such teachers" themselves, apparently one may wonder why there should be any need for strict moderation!. But then, every opportunity is taken bt every "Aggrieved" blogger to attack his/her target!. Anonymous said chat box is closed only because of the tirade against the IAS clan!. If they "SOW"- they will also "REAP" the harvest! Only difference is whether they do good or bad, they always "REAP" the harvest! I hope the chat box opoens up quickly so that the "average, sensitive, over-zealous, deeply aggrieved" blogger has an avenue to "vent" out his/her emotions! NAVDEEP's chat-box- has to be the "VENT" and needs to be BLOGGED and not BLOCKED. (In hind-sight: Teachers of CFTIs may spare me- in any case you can not be as bad as the SINNERS who always are the WINNERS in this country- No need to moderate this time!).

force1 said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,here is another point
Doctors in AMC are not even getting DACP.
Most of us are getting promoted atleast 4-7 years after the other services.
After nearly 17 years of service in the armed forces and being post doctoral(MD is equal to Doctorate and DM is post doctoral), most of us are just Asst professors and in a lower grade pay
You really think people are being fair?
Everyones gonna start cribbing about AMC now, but let just remind the all the other organisations are the ones taht are running your medical services and other public undertakings.
Unfortunately, in AMC most are bonded labourers with no say in their postings or exit from the service even after 24 - 25 years of service regards

beant said...

If a person does not show courage or spine in public what do you call him on this blog sir. If the IPS officers show cowardice and lead from the rear and do not bother about this being known in public;what would we call them sir?? It is good to be polite and balanced. But let truth be articulated on the blog

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Beant

You cannot broad-brush a community or an organisation. Secondly, pin-pointing a person and calling him or her spineless would not be allowed here. You may disagree with people but you do not have to call names to prove a point. Be soft in your language and your comments shall be respected. I also have no way of editing comments, either the complete comment gets posted or it does not.

Anonymous said...

Dear Beant, Harry and Nattu.
I from my own experience would like to say that in my one year on this blog have never seen any of my comments not being posted, why ? because I am not militant in my approach and I select my words wisely. Beant you talk of spineless IPS officers, how would you take it if one of your batchmates from the army is called spineless rightly or wrongly by a civilian in a public forum ? Such a commentator can even be sued for defamation. How can we be so immature that we burden Navdeep with such silly posts asking him to let us abuse and vent our anger on his blog. I think he created a frankenstien. Please remember that it is 'HIS BLOG' and not ours, he has to share the bouquets and brickbats not you who casually and anonymously spit out any and everything as comments or as chat bits. I feel sorry for all of you but I respect Navdeep's decision, though I would also be one of the people who would miss the chatting. There was nothing meaningful that could be seen on the chat box except bashing of the so called 'boos', 'netas', etc. Such a sad state of affairs and rather than improving yourselves you go on and tell the owner of the blog that he is being strict with you. Ulta chor kotwal ko daante.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

Are anno above comments for Harry Nattu etc in good taste that you publish it but not other comments?

It is such selection by you which are baised and nagate the morals you pretend to preach.

It is now openly IAS / IPS defenders blog. I am afraid participation in the blog may compromise Armed Forces officers position. So good buy for ever...

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony


You do not have a mortgage on my thoughts, fortunately.

You are welcome not to visit as you are to visit.

Your call, totally !!!

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous
From Another Anonymous

"It is now openly IAS / IPS defenders blog. I am afraid participation in the blog may compromise Armed Forces officers position. So good buy for ever..."

I REALLY LIKE THIS JOKE.

Anonymous said...

Jingoisn doesnt pay but silent work pays. services need to take note, dont go about town crying foul it will only stump u. instead adopt what the teachers did.

beant said...

anno@ 8:59!! A batchmate who shows no spine will be called spineless ;what else. What is the softer adjective for that. And what are adjectives meant for. And I never called anyone any names. There is no doubt the blog requirs moderation and the owner who is doing a great job has obviously the right. But too much of such sophistry will kill this blog.
A balance is required which I am sure the blog owner will ensure. I would however like to know acceptable adjectives for rampant instances of inefficiency, deciet, spinelessness and sheer disloyality to the nation and society in some organisations. Here we are labouring over the right words and they do not even bother what the soceity thinks of them.

Anonymous said...

My Dear Bloggers (Specially the one Liking the Jokes)

I have No doubt about the sincererity and good intentions of Navdeep. However, a few brief comments before I take a final call as Navdeep said.

A powerfull man, organisation, Institution (such as IAS or IPS) would always like to retain and ensure the power by hook or crook.

Secondly, participation on the blog is NO guarantee of Annonimity but a sure shot way of revealing identity. I am sure all understand that along with implications.

Navdeep is not beyond and above law. This may be his blog but if required, your identity would be revealed. In fact it can be done without Navdeep.

The propensity of IAS / IPS to go to any extent to maintain their power position is well known.

That is why the moderate caution of "exposure" was sounded.

Well, Lt Col Purohit's case is not very old. Though Lt Gen Sinha's case may not be so recent but the way Admiral Mehta was harrassed is well known to you all.

Excersising caution as it is required from any officer even in the normal course. More than that is the requirement to exhibit your standards and class which can not go down to "filth" in the name of "annonimity".

Howevr my rue is that many comments where words "IAS or IPS" appears is prompty deleted even if they are logical or of high class. Navdeep knows the reality and utility of those guys better than all of us.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

Well Anonymous at 9.43,

You must be dreaming is all I can say. I have never deleted comments other than those which broad-brush an entire community / service or those where particular personalities are named.

I peacefully run my profession and maintain a blog squeezing out minutes every day at the cost of professional time just to keep you guys informed, I have neither any 'utility' nor inclination towards bureaucrats. I do not have to warm up to anyone since fortunately I am not in a govt service.

Your contention is incorrect and highly disrespectful. You are not at all doing me or yourself a favour by visiting these pages, it is a free country, think whatever you like, do whatver you want, but I am under no obligation to agree with your thought process or to let garbage posted on the blog.

Harry said...

@ All

And we thought teachers in CFTIs have got a SUPERLATIVE deal (even the blogpost conveys it like that)

..but pls read this link and get real
http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/21/pay-anomaly-iit-professors-to-go-on-hunger-strike.htm

IndianACE said...

"What I don't know can't hurt me!"

Blessed are the service pers who profess ignorance about the treatment meted out to the armed forces by the 6th pay commission and its aftermath. Sitting on a distant ship/ in a field location, getting to read 4 days old news, it is easy to ignore the ignominy being harped upon the forces.

However it is more likely that we come back in limb to a family station and come across the non functional (weren’t they always so) officers of the group/ class ‘A’ services of this great nation, who have carried out a coup upon us, with active support from the elected representatives. He will look at your shoulder stripes, snicker and will try to show you losers down at the first instance. If only he could put the amount of his NF Grade pay on the plate in front of his staff car!!

And now the hallowed teachers, too. I've done my post grad from an IIT and well...

Anyway, as any psychologist will tell you, the first time is the hardest. So it has been difficult for the armed forces (at least for some of us, who can put value on the caliber of our counterparts on the civil side) to accept the blatant injustice and so we react through this blog. But in course of time we will learn to accept injustices as they come along. In due course, injustices from ______will also be taken in our stride.

I pray not.

Rahul said...

Dear Navdeep, Is there any way one can find out the special family pension for widows. And do the circulars for payment of arrrears which are acessible from your blog also apply to them.

Sorry I am using a shortcut.