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Monday, May 4, 2009

Rank mis-match : we need to keep our eyes open

We really do need to keep our eyes open.

Our regular visitor, Aditya, points out something strange in this advertisement issued by the Central Industrial Security Force (CISF) for veterans.

In the ibid advertisement, ex-defence personnel of the rank of Naib Subedar (Grade Pay 4200) have been sought for appointment as Assistant Sub-Inspectors (Grade Pay 2800), Havaldars (Grade Pay 2800) have been sought to be appointed as Head Constables (Grade Pay 2400) while only Sepoys (Grade Pay 2000) have been correctly equated with Constables (Grade Pay 2000). Naiks do not find a mention anywhere.

Hence, while emulation of Rank Badges merely started off as an ‘internal requirement of police organisations’ with a promise of ‘no bearing on actual status’ by the Ministry of Home Affairs back in the 1950s and 60s, these organisations are today comparing military and police appointments purely on the basis of stripes and rank badges.

Clear cut hierarchy on the basis of Grade Pay promulgated by the 6th CPC also has had no effect on how CPOs are recruiting veterans. In fact, in case implementation of lateral induction of defence personnel into CPOs as recommended by the 6th CPC (which in my opinion seems to be an unworkable vision) actually takes place, then Sepoys / Lance Naiks are supposed to move in as Constables, Naiks as Head Constables, Havaldars as ASIs and Naib Subedars as SIs.

This should make us realise the need of a separate section in the services headquarters which should look into equation, deputation and absorption issues with a sharp hawk eye so that the correct situation can be conveyed to organisations seeking senior military ranks for incommensurate appointments. And the said section should be manned by officers who have experience in such matters and who are provided with some stability as far as their tenures are concerned.

Readers may also like to go through this related post on rank confusion.

26 comments:

Anonymous said...

Navdeep and Friends,

Let us change a little bit:

Hav Let him have one star
Nb sub Two satars
Sub Three stars
Sub Maj Ashoka

There is nothing wrong in the above sheme of things..

KB said...

There is a dire need to officially send the WoP to all the para military organisations & the CPOs.

There is no point in all the armed forces guys telling each other about stars, stripes, ashokas et al. Its like being in a well of frogs, all telling all about the wordly affairs..

WE know these already..it is time that THEY should know it too & offer us the respect that we deserve.

"Those who serve, deserve."

We have served for more than 60 years, MUTELY. High time that we get what we deserve, nothing more nothing less.

Anonymous said...

Army HQ AGs Br(CW)should take note of this and issue a press release to give the correct equation and also info MoH to prevent such arbitrary equations in future.
If this is not nipped in the bud you will soon see this being accepted as the norm.
Earlier Cols used to be deputed as DIGs to PMF/CPOs, but when look alike ranks were taken to be the equation Brigs were asked for deputation as DIGs.
The Chalta hain attitude of the Army HQ vindiicated this.
Even the IAS when itr sends people on deputation to tates appoints them one step up i.e a Dy Secretary goes to a State as a Jt Secretary.
Pointless crying hoarse after the damage has been done. better to take corrective action on time.
Any AHQ man listening?

Anonymous said...

we must object to it, though i dont know how and who will object, but object v must and seek a correction in it

Anonymous said...

u don't want to post unsavoury comments.Atleast for the moment it seems so. I had commented on the futility of this comparison b/w various rks of army and it's eqvivalence with Police and so on.And I had termed it a joke .Kindly post it so that other bloggers can read some hard truth also ,other than trying to glorify self.We must realise,the sooner it is better it is,the hard truth so that we may start developing Ideas to counter it.(the degradation I mean)

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

Anony at 4.04

If you really want to let us know the hard truth, please be mild in your personal slants.

Secondly, if you do consider yourself a true crusader as you have implied in your post, then please come forth with your identity rather than passing foolish comments like "Kindly post it so that other bloggers can read some hard truth also, other than trying to glorify self".

Very unfortunate indeed Sir !

Harry said...

@ Maj Navdeep

Sir, with due respect to you, I have following to submit:-

1. My arguement about degradation of 67% Lt Gens still holds, 'cos as per your own admission Lt Gens were Senior to DsGP not-so-long-ago! And yes Corps Cdr (new promotee Lt Gen) will be two rungs junior to state DGP(Article 24 of WoP notwithstanding!)And your arguement about grant of Army Cdr/Vice Chief grade to select Corpe Cdrs on Non Functional Basis is only for salary (in any case by then he has already finished his tenure as Corps Cdr). So Unified Comd concept gets nixed !!

2. If organised Gp A services (many services are not even well known!!) have now been granted near parity with AIS, what stops Govt from doing it for us? Surely AF are NOT that WORTHLESS as are being treated.

3. You seem to be born optimist but surely things could have been handled better by the Govt, be it for Servicemen or ESM. High powered committee is yet to take shape forget about any of its deliberations so far :-( Only thing known at this hour is that its going to be headed by Def Secy. At this rate, not only will there be disappointment as regards its reccomendations and final acceptance but also avoidable delay !!( Don't expect anything in 2009 atleast.)

4. If there is a positive and favourable verdict from Supreme Court regarding incorrect fixation of pay during 4th CPC ( Maj Dhanpalan case) then will our pay fixation be done AFRESH? I understand the case may take years, but nevertheless won't it force the Govt to refix correct pay for all of us? Imagine the implication, a present Lt Cols pay may become equivalent to something like that of a IPS DIG !! Will Govt relent so easily?


PS: Sir, I will appreciate if you could reply to my points. Thanks in advance

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Harry

Your observations may be correct from one viewpoint but the story is not yet over !!!

On point 2 of your post. Such upgradation even if granted to faujis would in effect mean nothing since firstly it has nothing to do with status. Secondly, while under such upgradation, civil officers of the org gp A services would be upgraded to PB-4 in about 16 years, our officers would already be in PB-4 from 13th year onwards. It only makes a difference at the 10,000 GP level and that too only in respect of GP and not of pay scale. Even otherwise, even if those offrs would be in GP 10000, their functional GP and status would remain fixed at 7600 or 8700 as the case may be.

Harry said...

@ Maj Navdeep

Sir, firstly thanks for your prompt reply :-)

Also you said,"Your observations may be correct from one viewpoint but the story is not yet over !!!"Your three exclamation marks at the end are indeed very reassuring :-) And pls respond to my 4th point too, thats sure to stir up Hornet's Nest!

Harry said...

@ All

Yes we need to change our rank badges too and tell MHA( if at all reqd) thats its for our internal functioning !!

Hav - one star with cloth strip (Let him be Senior NCO only though and not JCO. If needed call him by another name).

Nb Sub - two stars with cloth strip.

Sub - Three stars with cloth strip.

SM - Ashoka with cloth strip (status quo)

2Lt - During training (and count training period and call him Trainee Lt if you will!)

Lt - Three stars( upon passing out, like IPS pass outs)

Capt - 4 year service( incl training) with Ashoka.(Equivalent to STS of civ service)

Maj - 9 year service (incl training) with Ashoka and star (akin to JAG Grade). Its minor loss of 1.5 year, as its 6 + 1.5 year presently.

Lt Col - 13 years (incl training) Ashoka with two stars and red collar tabs ( Incidently in Nepalese Army every officer wears red collar tabs, so much for the presumed importance of red collar tabs!!) Equate with Dir to GoI and CPO Comdts.

Col - 15 years service (incl training), equate with DIGs with similar rank badges and let them have one star on vehicles. Those who miss promotion to Col should get this rank automatically in 20 years

Brig - 20 year service, upgrade rank to Brig Gen and equate with IG Police and SAG of IAS. Rank badges be : One Star with cross sword n baton and two stars on vehicles.

Maj Gen - 25 year service, equate with HAG, Rank Badges: Ashoka with cross sword n baton with three stars on vehicles.

Lt Gens - 30 year service, equate with HAG+ Rank Badges: Ashoka with cross sword n baton with another "visibly distinguishing embellishment" and 4 stars on vehicles.

Army Cdr/ Vice Chief - PSOs also to be given this Grade alongwith Army Cdrs/Vice Chief, they be called Col Gens and rank badges be suitably defined with 5 stars on vehicles.

Gen - No change, but Ashoka on vehicle.

Field Marshal - Sword n baton on vehicle.

Anonymous said...

Dear All, Sat Shree Akaal.

Apart from parity of armed forces personnel below officer rank with police personnel below officer rank clearly established by sixth central pay commission, it may be seen from the Acts and Regulations promulgated by the government for some of the paramilitary organisations that Subedar has been referred to as Inspector and Naib Subedar as Sub Inspector. With that equation in view, an ASI can by no means be equated to a JCO of the rank of Nb Sub. Even within PMFs/CPOs/State Police ASI does not form part of the class and cadre of Subordinate Officers which includes only Sub Inspectors(Naib Subedars), Inspectors(Subedars) and Subedar Majors. Inspectors are a feeder post for promotion to Subedar Major wherever the latter rank exists. Prior to Sixth Pay Commission the pay scale of Inspector and Subedar Major was the same but Subedar Majors used to receive a Special Allowance of Rs.200/- for holding that higher rank/appointment. The Sixth CPC observed this anomaly and upgraded Subedar Majors of PMFs/CPOs to Grade Pay of 4800 equal to Subedar Majors of Army. And Inspectors (Subedars) have been rightly granted grade pay of Rs 4600/-.

Ironically, as claimed by many, if grade pay has no bearing on status, then why is the system hesitant in granting 8700 as GP to LT COLS???? Some of our powerful friends have perfected themselves in applying double standards depending on which one suits and serves their selfish ends better. Any further silence and delay in taking up such issues promptly as they occur will definitely amount to agreeing with such self styled equations drawn by our brethren. Maj Navdeep Sir has surely become the RAY OF HOPE. Hope this clarifies the mist to some extent. Kindly excuse for spelling and grammatical errors, if any.

MAY GOD AND WAHE GURUJI BLESS MAJ NAVDEEP SIR AND HIS KITH AND KIN FOR HIS SELFLESS PHILANTHROPHIC WORK!

Anonymous said...

hi navdeep
can you plx guide me where commandant CISf stands with respect to military personnel.

Ramani said...

Dear Navdeep,
While I agree that equivlent status should be based on a common yadstick like Grade Pay and or badges of rank, in reality the equation gets skewed.
Col Wahi became the CMD of ONGC.similarly a large number of officers after retirement(some even before) got jobs far above the eqvlt status.
Similarly retd Genls(be he a full Gen or a Lt Gen or a Maj Gen) have been made governor/Lt governor.
Also I have seen retd jcos in very senior jobs in the civil set up.
So what it boils down to is ,basically, merit, academic qualification,skillset and experience(especially speciality ones).
And I am not counting the innumeable entrepauners(forget the spelling) like Capt Gopinath of Air Deccan.
so if you have luck,are meritorious and hardworking none can stop you equivalence notwithstanding.

Anonymous said...

@ maj navdeep
though the difference in grade pay is small but it makes a lot of difference with regards to the allowance
why should one stay in a smaller house, stay in a smaller hotel / get less money for food
today it might look a small thing but later it may have more ramifications
so we must ask for time based grade pay to get parity with ias and also that the trg period of 1 yr be counted for service

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

This has reference to you observation:

"In fact, in case implementation of lateral induction of defence personnel into CPOs as recommended by the 6th CPC (which in my opinion seems to be an unworkable vision)" Yes, I agree with you but it must be discussed and explored. It shoild not be rejected outrightly. If National interests is kept in view , this is workable.

The proposal is workable from AF point of View.Where are the hurdles:

Hurdle One The CPOs in that case can not and should not remain under command of IPS. If CPOs are to be militarised, then those must be militarised fully like AR and Coast Guard.

Hurdle Two. Will our Political bosses and the Bureaucracy ever accept militarisation and control of CPO by Forces? Even in national interest they will not.

Hurdle Three. CPOS are all India and 50 percent resevation force. In waht manner Army / Navy will take them and then transfer them to CPO after seven years. That would be an end to Regimentation in the Army.

Hurdle Four This would amount to AF accepting a status of CPOs. That would be a final nail in the stataus demand of AF as conspired by the IPS / IAS.

In spite of all these, if the country has a political will, it still can be implemented after surmounting avobe problems.IPS, however, will have to totally out of it even to begin with. Or it is an IAS ? IPS ploy to permently degrade us.
Can This be debated.???

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony at 3.52PM

Well, that was just my 'personal opinion' you see :-)

But your comment proves my point.

:-)

mp said...

Dear Brother Officers,
BP has woken up from his deep slumber. Lekin rassi jal gayi par bal nahin gaya!!! See the venom he is spitting on his blog.

Rahul Sharma, IPS said...

The armed forces personnel seem to have practically no job in peacetime. Lot of your Officers are just cribbing about money, rank, status etc. Probably they do not have much to do other than harping on such frivolous issues. What is the basis for asking equality with IAS/IPS for your various Officers Cadres like Regimental Commission, Special List, General Service etc who are mere matriculates? The AVSC phase-I removed most of the differences between these inferior class of officers and the General Cadre. The Services should ask parity for the fighting arms NDA/IMA/OTA pass out direct entry officers with IAS/IPS. It is more meaningful and acceptable to all. Because we in Civil Service do not promote any Clerk or Constable as IAS/IPS Officers. Just be more rational in your thoughts!

Anonymous said...

Dear MP,
Can you give blog address of BP

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Rahul Sharma

Your fake IPS tag does not give you any credibility my dear.

And the fact that you are in fact associated with the defence (and not the civil) services can be seen through your comment.

Get a life and wake up.

Anonymous said...

Dear ALL
Blog of B P Singh is www.indiancpmf.blogspot.com.Any how those are views of him and let us not forget what so ever he has written is having some amount of truth that we had agreed to various downgradtion of ranks.

Anonymous said...

u have accepted my comments but still not published my views.now what does this prove?my frustration was justified or I am still being FOOLISH as u had commented and published.
After all it is ur blog!!!!

rks said...

DEAR NAVDEEP,
U HAVE PUT THE FAKE IPS MAN IN HIS PLACE.
BUT DOES HE HAVE A POINT ABT NON-GRADS GETTING COMMISSIONS.

ALSO WHAT IS THE REAL MEANING OF UR WORDS THAT THE 15 YR COLONEL THING IS ONLY SYMBOLIC

mp said...

For Annony at 10:47 PM 05 May,
www.indiancpmf.blogspot.com

Aditya said...

@Rahul Sharma/RKS/Navdeep:

Non graduates can technically get appointed to the IPS also.

Please reference from Union Home Ministry's IPS civil list 2009:

1. Yap Tshering Bhutia
(SPS), HS
Sikkim
19992067

High school is the highest level of this officers quals. Nothing wrong with it. He was promoted through the State Civil Service. Which is through the ranks like SL, etc. In fact, army's rankers are usually put through ACC and receive a proper degree, or are already graduates from universities, so what is wrong with that?

There are other officers too, of this sort.

144 Chukhu Apa
(SPS), -

20022219

145 G K Chetia
(SPS), -
20022220
AGMU ( 2002 )


146 Tusar Taba
(SPS), -
20022221
AGMU ( 2002 )


So let noone throw stones at another.

Anonymous said...

DEAR SIR, @RAHUL SHARMA,DO YOU THINK PROMOTION THROUGH SL,RC,SCO,ECT.ARE TIME BOUND AND COMES NATURALLY?PLEASE UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE.IT IS ALL THROUGH HARD WRITTEN EXAMS AND TOUGH SCREENING OF SSB .IAM THANKFUL TO ALMIGHTY THAT YOU HAVE NOT BORN TO UNITED STATES TO OBJECT MR.ABRAHM LINCON ,CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT POST AND NOT BORN WITH A SILVER SPOON IN HIS MOUTHH.ARMY THINKS BIG AS PER HER SIZE.THINK BIG,THINK DIFFERENTLY,TO GROW.GOD BLESS YOU!