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Sunday, March 15, 2009

Stretching Abhinav’s argument further : history speaks otherwise

While Abhinav Kumar had harped on the fact that Lt Cols who no longer command Battalions should not be granted a higher protocol than district administrative and police heads and that IAS and IPS officers preside over and manage more employees than military officers and hence deserve more pay and higher protocol than the defence services, it would be worthwhile to take a look as to how status equations were placed by the govt at the time of independence vis-à-vis sheer numbers as Abhinav would have wanted readers to believe. Also it is an established administrative norm that status and pay equations are never determined by number of employees presided over but are a resultant of a multiplicity of factors such as established relativity, functionality, duties performed, handling of human lives, equipment and importance to community. Stretching Abhinav’s logic, let’s analyse this blast from the past circa 1947 which would show that status and pay equations were never contingent upon the number of employees under supervision :

Brigadiers commanding about 3ooo men were equated with an IG Police – the highest police rank in charge of an entire state.

Lt Cols of the erstwhile Indian Medical Service (now AMC) commanding none were senior to the then second highest rank in the police hierarchy – the DIG.

Colonels who used to hold staff appointments with zero troops under command were equated with the highest rank in forest hierarchy – the Chief Conservator of Forests.

Lieutenant Colonels commanding less than 1000 troops were equated with the head of the entire excise machinery – the excise commissioner.

Majors who rarely commanded more than 100 men were always equated with Imperial Police officers with 15 to 20 years of service who used to head districts which were larger than some states of today.

So how is it that the status and pay were brought down ?. There is nothing in the successive pay commission reports which remotely suggests the depression of status of military ranks. In fact, pay commissions have made us believe that a status quo was always maintained between the pay of military and civil officers. Fine, but then how is it that a civil officer in the 3rd CPC grade of Rs 1650-1800 was granted Pay Band-4 with a Grade Pay of Rs 8700 by the 6th CPC while a Lt Col who was placed at Rs 1750-1950 was granted Pay Band-3 with a Grade Pay of Rs 7600 by the same Pay Commission ? How is it that a Capt is shown against Senior Time Scale under the 3rd CPC comparative table on Page 73 of the 6th CPC and suddenly is shown degraded and clubbed with 2nd Lieut and Lieut against the Junior Time Scale in the table representing 4th CPC – three military ranks equated with one civil grade and that too the lowest one !. There is nothing in the 4th CPC that suggests the downgradation of a Capt from STS to JTS level so how is it represented as such ?. Magic wand ?, No, but a crafty mind the execution of which escapes the untrained eye of not just the military but even the highest echelons of the bureaucracy and the cabinet. Again I would say that it’s those innocuous looking notes of the lower bureaucracy which hurt the most than anything else.

As stated by me earlier, the pitfalls of accepting Abhinav’s arguments are many. Every single Group-A officer starts with the same salary under the Govt of India, if the ‘number of employees presided over’ argument is taken into consideration, then we’ll see most Group-A civil servants being placed below thanedaars or even havaldars. Within the defence forces, we’ll have officers from arms seeking superiority in pay and protocol over officers from the services. Professors of Universities and senior govt doctors and scientists would be down in the dumps because of the absence of those numerical attributes so much considered cardinal and vital by our friend Abhinav.


Anonymous said...

No comments on this issue, but.. how come u r up and writing at 6:00 AM on a sunday.:)

Anonymous said...

Dear navdeep you have very effectively counterd the childish arguments of abhinav's but the point remains that a serving IPS officer can get away easily with publishing such articles in a national daily. do the armed forces have nonelse than navdeep to defend them. imagine a AF'S officer making such public comments about other arms of the govt like civil services, railways etc. you are doing a good job. may god give you strength.(olddoc)

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep

Such nuances will be understood only by a clear mind like yours and untrained minds will be dupes like they were during 6CPC deliberations.

A bit away from the topic, can you do a post on Rank Vs. Title debate that raged on another blog? It will be worthwhile to know position of Law, if any, on this matter. To my untrained mind, it is nothing but a play of words that should start this debate. However, it will be nice to get a professional's perspective.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

Thanks for highlighting the anomaly which has crept in during last few pay commissions. And I think our predecessors are to be blamed for this. Who always felt that it was below their dignity to talk about pay and allowances. Even discussion on this subject was forbidden in unit messes.
And now the same lot is crying hoarse over the spilled milk on issues like "One rank and one pension".
What an irony.
Now what is the way out to set things straight?
Best Wishes

Beniwal said...

It is time to put comparative tables in news papers(i am sure they will not publish), regarding the status/precedence/pay viz babus stating from 1947 and the damage done/down grading done by each CPC, for public at large to know the mindset of babus and polititions aganist the faujis. There is nothing done to counter what is published by anti media. The nation must be reminded regularly that on D day, when IAS/IPS fails it is fauj who comes to the rescue. It is fauj who makes the national borders secure for these babus/ police to act freely. But they should not take faujis for granted, just because faujis in uniform do not have unions to speak like babus. I hope, Sooner then later some one should tell them in a faujis language. Beniwal

Anonymous said...

It's understandable for a young officer like Abhinav to show a bit of prejudice for his own brethren. But what about the experienced editor of a national newspaper? Don't they check their facts before publishing anything??

Anonymous said...

Dear Navtej,
Once again you have greatly dissapointed not only me but all those also who understand the organisation. Your sincererity and credibility I would not like to doubt but would like to add that all this discussion regarding status and justification mean “very little” ( I may be accused of exageration) to IAS & IPS. If IAS is Right Hand of Politicians then IPS is there Left Hand. Together they will do any thing to ensure that there status remains at the top, only then can they be in successfull in getting what they want. Following are some points for reality check :--

# Politicians, IAS & IPS practice dictatorship over civil population tactfully using undemocratic tools and methods ( Change of Status of Armed Forces witout proper debate or consultation is a classic case where Dictatorship was clearly evident). Armed forces remain to be the most trusted, respected and loyal to the constitution of India and are by any means far more democratic, caring and just towards there subordinates.

# Indian Armed Forces are the true representatives and custodians of democratic values of indians as they continue to remain non political and NOT hungry for power, which I am afraid cannot be said of the politicians, IAS & IPS ( one only has to see their functioning in states to find out the truth ).

# National Interests when under military threat ( The Last Resort ) are protected by Our Brave Soldiers at the cost of their lives, it is armed forces which maintains gives physical shape to the country and also maintains its integrity and sanctity. All other activities follow thereafter. It is sad that politicians, IAS & IAS are so obsessed with power, are very short sighted and self centered that they can't even give to our soldiers which is rightfully due to them i.e. Status/Izzat in society which actually is a major factor when motivating troops for fighting the enemy.

# Point to be remembered, people who work for money (black/white) think that troops too think the same way. If that was correct then our enemies have enough money to buy every soldier many times over.

# Armed forces are organised and structured keeping WAR scenario in mind and not peace. Tough training over prolonged duration requires very high motivation levels which comes through finest of leadership built on the love, affection, concern, well being and sense of belongingness and Izzat and status bestowed by Nation. Degradation of Status and Izzat is definitely NOT going to help our military leaders when they have to ask troops to follow them in war for national cause when they know that they are actually being insulted and fooled.

# Point about command ----- major in war will definitely command much more than 100 tps ( could be upto 200 or even more ) since it would include many attachments and detachments. Currently Units are being Commanded by Substantive Lt Cols and equivalents in all the three services. In army the strength thus commanded in war will invariably be much above 1000 ( incl attachments and detachments, PMFs etc) which will be under his command. Similarly a Brigadier may command upto or even more than 5000 tps. Dear Navtej, your use of term “less than” as prefix does not project the true picture and hence could be damaging for armed forces.

# Armed forces officers exercise judicial powers under Army Act and can even pronounce death punishments (under certain conditions) within their command unlike any ther force or organisation.

# Jurisdiction of IPS & IAS (except PMFs or Central Govt Org like NSG, RAW, IFS etc) is limited to state level ) whereas armed forces has no such limits and not only cuts across entire nation but goes much beyond the borders of the nation in protecting and projecting national interest.

# I have heard some people say that armed forces commissions its officers at very early age where as civil services people are older. To that I can only say that Minimum qualification for civil services like armed forces is Graduate. If people can't qualify for armed forces or get through civil services exams at the right age, the Army cannot be faulted or penalised for that. A seniority may count by Length of Service but certainly NOT based on AGE.

# It is a matter of happiness that service conditions of PMFs is improved BUT will definately become a sensitive issue if Armed Forces status instead of improving is degraded. I favour grant of 2Lt rank to cadets in IMA & OTA and equivalent in Navy and Air Force.

# Last but NOT THE LEAST may I request Maj Navdeep to oversee publishing of suitable articles in News Papers and Magzines projecting armed forces perspective to the people in general and our civil leadership in particular.

$#$ A one line acknowledgement or comment if any will be appreciated from bloggers ( Even from people from civil services) since I express my views for the best interest of the nation which they proudly administer on behalf of the people. I Love Civil Services But Certainly NOT At the Cost of Armed Forces of Our NATION.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...


Firstly I'm not 'Navtej' but were you referring to me at all ?

Secondly, I fail to comprehend from your post as to how have I 'disappointed' you ? More so in light of the fact that you have merely reinforced in length what I had stated in the two rejoinders to Abhinav in brief.

Could you elaborate please ?


Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,
Yeas I was reacting to certain lines in your writeup. My sincere appologies to you for the error.
"My reference was with respect to the troop level mentioned under command and prefix of "less than"

Anonymous said...

"Lt Cols of the erstwhile Indian Medical Service (now AMC) commanding none were senior to the then second highest rank in the police hierarchy – the DIG." Thanks to SPC recommondations for doctors (DACP) which is not impliented for doctors of Armed Forces! after nine years of service all CGHS / central govt doctors will reach GP 7600 and 14th yrs GP 8700 and 20th yrs 10000; while doctors in army uniform will get gp 8000 after 12th yr and GP 8700 (selection 21 yr 40% will get it)or 24 yrs of service and only 5% will reach GP 10000 after 27-29 yrs of service. In severnth pay commission we will debate how doctors satus has been lowered a topic for you and other people for Hot.... discussion. And reason ..... few so called think tank of higher echelons of Army headquarters do not want DACP to be implimenmted for doctors of AMC in SPC.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@anoany at 8.58

But I thought that the office of DGAFMS was directly under the MoD and has nothing to do with the Army as can be seen from the comments on my earlier post : http://www.indianmilitary.info/2009/02/misinterpreters-at-office-of-dgafms.html

Just kidding :-)

DACP would come through but on a non-functional basis I think.

Anonymous said...

Dear bloggers,
The Terrible Mess created in 6th CPC by our Elite IAS and Visionary Politicians is matchless in the world. No wonder THEY deserve the BEST. What better proof one requires that this is an era of KALYUG.

Anonymous said...

The writeup and comments are fine.
with many thanks to NAVDEEP for doing so much for the FAUJ and the NATION ,it would be my endevour to add and strenghten these efforts.
I would urge fellow bloggers also to purse in their own ways to further the cause without getting into controversies over minor points .
Let us give support and strength to individuals ,groups and organisations .

Anonymous said...

I totally agree with the comment that most of top brass that were associated with past pay comms ,perticularly those ADJ GENs and his staff were responisible for the disparities and down gradation. Obviously they did not project and protect the intersts of Fauji.They were passive and cared more of self-intersts .
At this let me say that NAVDEEP is true ADJUTANT GENERAL of Faujis.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep, your cases are ok but you hide info like a true lawyer but what officers need to know is real fact. Rest is for all to analyse. It will then ensure that the benefits come to defence forces. Do not be afraid to tell full truth. The Lt Col time scale was granted in 23 years and substantative in 25 years and then he was in a scale less then DIG. DIG was higher. The col scale was given in 30 years.The pay of Army officers were always much less then ICS and slightly less then IPS in same length of service. However the ICS/IPS officers were granted sacles earlier then Army officers generally by 2-3 years.You may post superior services rules on your blog. It will be quite educative to both Army officers and others. We must fight for equity and not for inequality.Regards to boyh sides to reminder that coin should not be forgetten while siting on it to claim sides and slices.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony at 1.34 PM

Why don't you take the lead in lifting the veil and enlightening us on the rules instead of pointing out holes in the theory.

And for your kind information, an Acting Lt Col (with only 6 1/2 years of service - yes you read it right, six and a half years of service) was also placed almost along a DIG in status.

Anonymous said...

navdeep sir
kindly tell us with facts of who can put on red riders on top of veh and on wat conditions and appts.only armed forces

Anonymous said...

The issue is disparity and down gradation since 1st pay com to 6th pay com .The earlier anny comment of comparing status at a point of time during the period 1947-2006 does not give true picture .
Besides, the rk of sub Lt Col by time scale bet 13-25yrs of svc.
In 1950s it was 24yrs,1970s 25yrs,1980s 23yrs...etc and now 13yrs.
so do compare the p&a of IPS and AF(less Mil Ser pay) with length of ser;that gives true picture with rks/appts .
Navdeep has given true comparision. there is no substence in the comment of saying that he has sup certain details.

Maneesh Joshi said...

Hi Navdeep'
Yes, I read that article too and yes again, apropos Anon(15 Mar/7.55am) not a single voice from the brass with a rebuttal. Abhinav's article irked me for three reasons - the rant over the numbers managed/commanded, the messes-and-clubs axe and the crap about Karkare and his lot. But strangely and most humiliatingly, a large number of Service officers too seem to have an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the IAS. Why so, only they know. The IAS HAS made it one of its KRAs to keep its boot on the Services and grind it into submission. Our top brass, subservient and obsequious, literally drooling to get the next rank, are the real reasons for this state of affairs. Nothing and nothing will change till the entire methodology of selection to these high ranks undergoes a radical transformation.

Anonymous said...

Dear Friends, what i have said is The Truth. I am sure the correct officers will know it. The Military officers held the various posts in ICS/IPS/IES/IAS/CMC/IFS as their cadre posts and were posted at an appointment based on their length of service as per Superior Civil Services rules applicable since 1924. At that time the Captain had service up to 12 years and Major upto 23 years. Minimum service for Lt Col was 23 years. No wonder they were suitably placed in appointments etc. However what is important is that ICS officers had 6 years advantage vis a vis Mil officers, and IPS of 2 years. The Army should look inward for irrationally down grading their ranks. It will be batter Army officers ask parity vis a vis length of service in pay. At that time the pay was same whether u r in Army or civil for same job.Of course there were no allowance if u are in civil appointments.There were no facilities like now which are costly to exchequre. Regarding status it is obvious that a status of Lt Col of 23 years minimum service can not be given same status as the status of 11 years service Lt Col. But yes the status of a Army oficer with 23 years service should be same as then. The advantage to ICS etc shouldbe more or less same as then. However officers may be aware that status of Army officers is better in India than many democracies like UK, US, France etc. In UK there are 22 Civil officers higher in rank than Chief. Thanks WITH REGARDS.

Anonymous said...





IndianACE said...

Here, I would raise a query which was brought to my notice by a JCO as I tried to inculcate amongst a group of other ranks, the necessity of jointmanship amongst service personnel (officers and other ranks) on the issue of voting and how it shall benefit us all in that we shall not be taken on a ride this easily in the future.

The JCO, a Sub Maj of MES (Draughtsmen) cadre, stood up and stated that a SM gets a grade pay of Rs 4800/- and on being promoted he is appointed as a Chief Draughtsman up from a Sr Dtmn (subedar (GP-4200/-))

As against this, a MES civilian draughtsman, who reaches a GP of 4200/- is appointed to the rank of an AAD (Asst Arch Dir).

Now this civilian AAD dines in the officers' mess with us while the Sub Maj cannot. (The AAD is equallant to an AE (Asst Engr)).The AAD lines up along with the other officers to recieve a VIP, sits for offrs' conferences and attends the weekly offrs tea in the office.

What is even more irritating for the Sub Maj is that while the fauji draughtman is a college diploma holder, the civilian counterpart is taken in from the ITI (Industrial Trg Institute).

This situation has been on for donkeys years in an organisation headed by a fauji and as the wizened JCO smirked, saab, you all shall soon get over the indignity about the izzat and enjoy the pay pack.

The responses to your posts on VOTING vis a vis those on the PAY are pointing that some thing is clearly amiss.

Can I request you to respond on the JCO issue, Navdeep?

Anonymous said...

That anny comm is confused and mixed-up,his intentions seems to be in gen aggrement with NAVDEEP but his expressions are contrary.

If a Lt Col with 13 yrs is in that stage of down gradation with IPS, that also means the Lt Col upto 31 yrs of svc is inflicted with forther down gradation. So, the example illustrated by NAVDEEP is at the lowest level of svc of Lt Col,which is more appealing.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

I really apreciate your concern for getting higher status to the Service officers. But, please do ask by keeping your hand on your heart, do they really deserve? Dont give anything to a person who cannot maintain its dignity. Similar is the case of Army officers. They 'Sir' any tom dick and harry, in civil services, degrading the status they wear on their shoulders! They are utilised for arranging parties in mess, getting pidly jobs which a class 'C' employee of the Govt too hesitate to do. What a shame!! They never deserve to have any status. Please visit Sena Bhawan Area in the evening at 1730hrs. You can see it your self. I dont think I Have to give any examples to you. But please try to educate this service officers on this issue.

Anonymous said...

Dear bloggers,
nobody becomes small by showing respect to others. You become small by your deeds. If at all armed forces (AFs)have been humiliated it is because they lacked character to stand up and project their case strongly. AFs generally habitual of addressing the issues in a rather fair, simple and straight forward manner where as IAS & IPS are masters at dealing cunning and difficult characters. While AFs trusts them on face value, they play there games with AFs like expert chess player.

Anonymous said...

my dear anony...
@17 mar 1:03 pm

Firstly -- minimum service required for Lt Col is 13 years + 1.5 years training i.e. 14.5 years and NOT 11 years as stated by you.

Secondly -- before I refute your stand would you please let me know the minimum service of SP of a district at the time of 1st pay commission.

Thirdly -- IPS already enjoys 2 year edge since its training period is counted towards service.

Anonymous said...

Officers always lament just for their problems and not even talk about PBORs who have got similar problems.Here are some examples which shows that PBORs too have been given less grade pay and placed in lower pay bands as compared with their civilain counterparts:

1. LAC Group X, old scale 4025-60-4925 Grade pay 2000.
Corporal Group X, old scale 4150-70-5200 Grade pay 2400.
Station Officer in Fire fighting staff old scale 4000-100-6000 grade pay 2800.

2. Sergeant Group X (Diploma Scale), old scale 5000-100-6500 Grade pay 2800.
Head Clerk/Assistant Gr II/Steno/Primary Teacher Gr III old scale 4500-7000 Grade pay 4200 (PB2).

3. JWO Group X, old scale 5770-140-8290 Grade pay 4200.
Primary Teacher Gr II old scale 5500-9000 Grade pay 4600.

4. Warrant Officer Group X old scale 6750-190-9790 grade pay 4600.
Primary Teacher Gr I old scale 6500-10500 Grade pay 4800.

5. MWO Group X old scale 7400-200-10200 Grade pay 4800.
Section Officer/PS in Secretariat old scale 6500-10500 Grade pay 4800 on completion of 4 years 5400 (upgraded to PB3).

These are just some examples more can be seen at http://india.gov.in/govt/studies/revised.pdf. I know Grade pay have been determined by taking the higher limit of old scale, but this rule itself is at fault and increases the disparity between soldiers and civilians. In Vth pay CPC increments of PBORs were lesser as compared to civilians, making the higher limit of scale less. The structure old scales of PBORs were different when compared with civilianian counterparts. So they cannot be compared with higer scale of old pay. If some comaprison is to be made it must be on the basis of task they undertake. (A Technician doing the maintenance & servicing on highly sofisticated aircrafts cannot be kept below fire station officer or primary teacher.)SO OFFICERS PLEASE DON’T EXPRESS THE PROBLEM OF GRADE PAY ONLY AS YOURS, BEACAUSE IT IS THE PROBLEM OF WHOLE SERVICE. JUST TRY TO LOOK INTO THE PROBLEMS OF YOUR SUBORDINATES IN TURN YOU WILL GAIN SOMETHING.

Anonymous said...

I am not a doctor, but I fully support your cause. "That is not for you", is an unacceptable answer. What the devil does it mean? When the 6th CPC has proposed, why should DGAFMS dispose?

Ridiculous. Just shows why the army is getting degraded. The government prefers "boneless" sorts, who are easier to digest!

You dont even need to lean on these people to degrade the military. They trip over each other in their eagerness to do it on their own.

I hope military doctors raise these points forcefully, and achieve DACP.

Parity for doctors, may eventually end by meaning parity for all, since the false logic of Civil/Military disparity can be reduced to rubble.

After all, article 14 of the constitution of India guarantees equality before law, and Military officers, as government servants should certainly not be discriminated against

Anonymous said...

I had met the DGAFMS at an update and had asked hime DIRECTLY about the DACP.

He stated that he had taken up the case and it was being processed.

There was some rumour that the COAS had some reservations.

Only thing all army docs would get stuck at 85000 basic.

As of now difference between DG & senior Col is only 5000.

Anonymous said...

If DACP implemented in fauj,the crises of specilest like anesthesia,surgery,gyne,medicene
can be shortened as many doctor ready to join army,by giving SSC to them be useful thing otherwise the condition become worst

Unknown said...

Dear Navdeep,

There are srong rumours that COL (TS) rank will be attained on completion of 20 Years of service.It has been cleared by the air force for their GP CAPT (TS).Please give some research on the issue