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Monday, November 24, 2008

Pleasant news in the offing, Relax and wait :-) Please don’t read too much into the Cabinet Secretary’s interview

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Papers yesterday blew out of proportion some off-the-cuff comments by India’s Cabinet Secretary, Mr KM Chandrasekhar, on the military pay anomalies issue. There was indeed an over-interpretation of his remarks.

The difficulty of maintenance of a balance in equities and parities he was referring to was in fact of the pre-GoM days. He was referring to the Committee of Secretaries and not to the Group of Ministers, which of course is a higher apex body. The GoM is currently examining the accepted recommendations of the Committee of Secretaries headed by Mr Chandrasekhar. The GoM would soon be recommending to the Cabinet the improved amendments.

The following (complete) remarks bring more clarity on what he was trying to convey :-

“The Cabinet Secretary said when the armed forces raised the issue of pay parity, the Committee of Secretaries took up it immediately and deliberated on how to find a solution to it for the satisfaction of the defence personnel. ‘When the armed forces raised the issue, we sat together at the official level with Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister (P M Nair) and decided that the best thing would be to request the higher level. So we requested the external affairs minister because he was both defence and finance minister earlier and could consult defence minister and finance Minister and give his views,’ he said.”


I however do hope that the Cab Secretary was not referring to the below mentioned good work by the CoS when he talked of ‘balance’ and ‘parity’ in his remarks :-) (uh hmm !!)


Click here to see the Comparison of difference / lag in pay and status progression between the civil and defence services.

Click here to see a Comparison of Military & Civil Pay Scales : 5th Vs 6th CPC

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33 comments:

Anonymous said...

Mr Chnadrashekhar is a pipe smoking,heavy drinking man.A very nice guy and a nicer Officer,he is sympathetic towards our needs.His remarks should not be taken offensively

Anonymous said...

Chandra Shekhar is the head of indian state and ManMohan is his PA.Instead of complaining to GoM we should complain to Cabinet Secy

Anonymous said...

dear navdeep the pbor pre-2006 pensioners condition is not good but pbor thought after sixth pay commission their condition will be improved but nothig has been increased pension for pre-2006 pensioners . they thoght that after sixth pay commission they will get full pension becoz they are not able to complete 33 years .
post 2006 pbor wil get full pension after 15 years of service but pre-2006 pbor will get full pension after 33 years of service.
so pls give me answer why govt took this decision and will this be anomaly removed?pls give me the ans thanksssss

Anonymous said...

We are rather shocked to read the above statement of Cabinet Secretary KM Chandersekhar. Instead of appreciating the genuine demands put up by the three Chiefs and Ex Servicemen, he has chosen to throw a red herring in the case. A Committee of Group of three Ministers ordered by the PM to go into the complete gamut of the anomalies for which the Defence Forces have been agitated since the submission of the 6th CPC has not adhered to the schedule of submitting the report by 31 Oct 08; the selective leak to the press by the Cabinet Secretary is unjustified. The reasons for non compliance of the PMs instructions are not understood. Have we reached such low levels of Governance? What is difficult, in giving pay parity to the forces has not been substantiated by Cabinet Secretary. What can be so glaring anomalous than the one projected by the three Chiefs and Ex servicemen? How can an officer who was drawing Rs 800 per month more than the civil servants has been placed to get Rs 14000/-less per month in the 6th CPC award? Similarly, how can a Lt Gen who was ahead of DG Police till now could draw less pay and have a lower status? What is difficult in this? The Govt has to just correct these anomalies. In fact what the Defence Forces must get is the restoration of Status and Emoluments that existed in 1947 brought to update. This is the clear cut genuine demand of Defence Forces.

3. The pension orders issued on 14 Nov 2008 are no where near their demands. Instead of granting One Rank One Pension (OROP), the Govt has ordered One Rank Many Pensions. It has created many classes in One Class which is violating the provisions of Article 14 of the constitution as observed by Supreme Court in a ruling given on 09 Sep 2008 in the case of Major Generals. The Govt left to its ineptness has created for itself a very difficult situation, a Havildar will get less pension than a Sepoy and Lt Gen will get less pension than a Colonel. What a joke?

4. Will the Govt act fast and correct all these serious anomalies immediately, lest it be too late, as the time is running out.

source: report my signal

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony at 9.18

PBOR who retired prior to 1-1-2006 would get the following benefit in pension :

Sepoy would get an addl benefit of 10 years as weightage, hence a Sepoy with 15 years of service shall receive a pension @ 25 years.

Nk would receive 8 yrs and Hav 6 yrs weightage.

Anonymous said...

dear navdeep sir i know this hav addissional weightage 6 year but why govt did not approve ful pension after 15 years of service for pre-2006 pbor . i have calculated my pension nothing has been increased in my pension. will govt approve one rank one pension? pls give me the ans thanks

Anonymous said...

The issue is about parity with status which existed in the V pay commission,it is not about pay,it is unbecomng of the Cabinet Secretary to delierately confuse it with pay and make it appear to the public at large that the demands of the Army are something more than they deserve or had prior to VI PC.

What was the need to have the VI pay commission,if the DA had gone to 100%or 500%,so be it,the computers would have calculated it.At least the parity would have been maintained.

Replacing pay scale with pay band is all hogwash,you still have different grade pay which serves the purpose of the erstwhile pay scale. The only purpose the VI pay commission has achieved is to lower the status of the Armed forces. You could have easily had one pay band each for each group A,B,or C. Why should there be two pay bands for Group A.

yourstrulyOG said...

I feel that if the IAS or anybody is playing games Of the sort we have seen, in the past few months then we should play the game smarter.Firstly with respect to the cadre management I think few things have to be rectified. I think fair way to make more offrs reach the higher ranks is restricting the entry of offrs proportionate to the no of exits with a fair competitive ratio of 1:3. this may be done by
1. Increasing the intake of SSC offrs lets say 60% of the vac.
2. 40% through IMA (counting the trg period in the service as the IAS does).
3. Thus a fair no of offrs will have the option to leave at a young age and may be absorbed in the PSU / Private sector depending upon their caliber and choice.
4. Reintroduce the rank of 2 Lt. I feel the abolishing of this rank may have led to the disparity in grade pay as the civ have compared the lowest existing rank with the corresponding lowest civ rank.
5. An option may also be given for exits at lets say 10 and again at 15 years of service with or without pension(pension may be given on a sliding scale depending upon the no years of service).
6. To a great extent the army needs to reconsider the appointments and the QR for some of them. In todays world logistics is a very specialized subject and we post offrs with little or no knowledge of the same(beg your pardon but I have considered the working experience which may brought certain amount of knowledge with it to the offr)We post off as QM,DQ who may not be a expert on the sub , he no doubt learns over a period of time but i feel the org sufferers as by the time he is an expert , he is posted out(hence no doubt the offr gains in experience the org looses out)Hence lot of funds alloted go underutilized or may not efficiently utilised. Secondly the accounts departments have to be more professional hence we may have to adopt the procedures and org setup of the air force with respect to the accounts dept. This will no doubt ease out a lot of pain.
7. Promote offrs to the rank of
Col 15-16 yrs
Brig 20-21 yrs
Maj Gen 25-26 yrs and so on
They may choose to leave at a relatively young age of 45 with adequate pension and still good for the corporate world.
Create more posts at the senior level and please let the time scales ranks leave service and abolish the re-employment concept... I don't think it does anything good for the org

8. Offer study leave for a variety of courses so that the intellectual development of the individual and the environment improves. Only MBA and PGDCA may not be adequate.

Hence I feel there is a problem and has to be understood and solved holistically. A knee jerk here and there wont solve the problem. The babus are not going to change hence we should try to outsmart them in the own game. ... May be raising a separate corps to tackle them, may be required by the next pay commission.
I think we were caught unawares this time by an enemy within. I know we can tackle them and beat them but may be we have think not with our hearts as most of us do.....

pawan said...

yours truly OG
The solution suggested by you has long term ramifications and are not so simple as envisaged by you. suggestions at serial 1,2 & 4 are good and necessary however other suggestions and options need not have desired impact and may prove counter productive.
Most of were aware of the pitfalls of the recommendations made. e.g. It was very well known that abolition of 2Lt rank will lead to Lt getting equated with the junior most officer of other services and will have cascading effect on rest of the ranks. Any one who pleads ignorance does not have right to wear the brass on the OGs.
Army particularly is shy of projecting its COs as Substantive Lt Col firmly and thereby seeking parity with commandant/SSP. Making Unit Cdrs Substantive Cols will definitely make them junior to their counterparts as they would be assuming this rank much earlier.
I hope better sense prevails

Patriot said...

The maximum noise/Arguments made by other organisations is about LT Col not being a SELECT rank. One fails to understand, if these organisations can have mock selection process to name their posts in funny ways like NFSG etc, what stops us from having a promotion/selection board for the rank of Capt, Maj and Lt Col. Lay down QRs as:-

a) Pass in Prom Exam.
b) Min AR Grading of 5 for Capt/Maj.
c) Min AR Grading of 6 for Lt Col.

And we shall have SELECTION GRADE officers from Capt onwards. Despite 100% promotion to next higher rank Babus call it select grades. Think Army Think........and act fast....start preparing for CPC VII...

danny said...

Is the Cab Secy creating a face saving ground for himself in his community as the ligitimmate demands of armed forces will have to be met. Is he distancing himself from the likely dis/credit flowing from the inevitable political decision?

Anonymous said...

Dear All,
The ramblings of the Cab Secy are not without menaing.
The key to the whole problem is "balance" which IAS has created for all class A services favoring IAS but the Armed forces stand fully disbalanced vis-s-vis the Civil services.
The IAS paranoia of "balance" of age is all right for civil services which they are applying on Armed Forces Officers without realising that younger profile for responsible and key Ranks like Lt Col is functional and organisational requirement.

Lt Col should not be pushed back simply because now he would be of 35 yers of age (age of average STS). The Blalnce is overall from the entry upto the highest rank where IAS and Class A services have advantages through out. What if an Army officers becomes equivalanent to a director in 13 yeras. within next three years he would be JS. The balance and equaltions need to be seen in the overall context.

Lt Col being a key functional rank, it is but obvious for the Chiefs to put their foot down. IAS lobby getting stuck at one rank rather than looking at overall balance which favours them throughout, is but psychological block and arrogance.

Mr Chandrasekhar must look at Macro balance rather than play to the demands of Directors only. The cab secy can not get stuck at one Micro problem and disbalance the Armed forces.

I hope some wisdom prevails while advising the GoM. The loss of face for Mr Chandrasekhar was thrust on him by CPO loving Sushma Nath and IAS Association. He should, however assert himself as Cab Secy to tide over such minor obstacles. That is what is expected of him rather than he playing the IAS tune.

Harry said...

@yourstruly OG

Sir, all your points are well taken but my observation is regarding abolition of 2/Lt rank. Here I hold a different view. I would even go further by saying that abolish Lt as well as Lt Col rank as well (Ahrite, Lt Col rank b retained for promoting majs who miss direct selection to Col rank.)
And cadre management should be such planned that all PC officers should reach Col rank either by selection (in around 14-15 years, mind u this is incl training) and those who miss out shd get Col (TS) rank in abt 18-19 years. Similarly service for Brig Gen( upgrade Brigs to Brig Gen and equate with JS)and Maj Gen (equate with Addl Secy) ranks should be brought down to 18-19 and 23-24 years respectively.

By abolishing Lt rank and commissioning officers directly as capts it would hv even rank badge parity with IPS/CPMFs as they put on three stars directly. If we say that our 2/Lt is equivalent to IPS ACP (wearing 3 stars),though we are right technically, but how many actually buy that? Even our jawans would feel that IPS guy with three stars is senior, so rank badges do matter esp if you consider Army and Police, where we are at tremendous disadvantage. Wanna hear this, 93 batch IPS officers have already been empanelled as DIGs, surprised?!!!! And as per 6PC (watever we may say) DIG is Brig equivalent!! Our 93 batch officers have not even been made COs (who are in any case only acting Cols and Substantive Lt Cols). So lets go with the world and not plough our lone furrow in isolation and end up cribbing in frustration because "duniya hamare hisaab se nahin chalti"...time for some outta box thinking blokes!!

Anonymous said...

@ harry when will defence pensioners get arrear pls give me the ans thanks

Harry said...

@ Maj Navdeep

Sir, one slight observation in the comparision chart linked by you. Even though it very clearly brings out inter service (Armed Forces and Civ Service) grade/rank equations, but my point is that 100% officers don't become Lt Cols, we are forgetting those who have NOT cleared Part D and also those those who are NOT qualified on JC Course! Surely their No are not totally insignificant (though admittedly I don't have any official figures but in reasonable estimates they could be around 2 % of cadre strength).

Am I wrong Sir?

Harry said...

@ Annonymous 11.19 AM

Sir, even though I have NO authentic input on the pension arrears but it would be very reasonable to assume that since Govt(despite its claim) could NOT ensure "HAPPY DIWALI" for our veterans, atleast now they should expect a "HAPPY NEW
YEAR".. :)..LOL

Harry said...

@ Patriot

Bro, U r spot on.. I second ur opinion!! This can easily be implemented. Very good suggestion dear!!

yourstrulyOG said...

Dear Maj Navdeep

Can the detailed noting of the spc be sought by RTI

Anonymous said...

dear sir

One may call for and see any notings one likes, that still does not stop the Government, I mean the Elected Reps, to take any decision, which they will always say ,that it was in Public Interest.

All Public Interest Cases need not be what the Armed Forces desire.

Thanks

ranjit said...

Sir,
The problem lies here, as per you, I quote, "The GoM is currently examining the accepted recommendations of the Committee of Secretaries headed by Mr Chandrasekhar".
It seems to be one sided affair again. If GoM has to go through the recommendations of CoS only, which was bias in any case without any input from Armed Forces, then the result cannot be in defence forces favour. Its going to be garbage in garbage out.

Anonymous said...

Remember this guys,We need to vote and tell our family members to vote.We the ESM have decided to come together in Kerala and support BJP as the other two parties are useless.The families of serving soldiers also would be convinced in due course of time.UPA shall not win too many here

Col VT Venkatesh(Rets) said...

@Harry
AS per my bank(Canara bank) the pension arrears will be paid with in 2 to 3 weeks & hence I expect it by 10 Dec 2008

Anonymous said...

http://persmin.nic.in/ersheet/MultipleERS.asp?HiddenStr=01KL008600

Anonymous said...

I going to commit suicide. U will see in the newspapers shortly

Ajith said...

The announcement may get delayed beyond 24 Dec, thanks to ECs model code of conduct.

KK said...

DEAR PATRIOT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.IN FACT ALL PROMOTIONS IN DEFENCE ARE SELECTION BASED.ONE HAS TO CLEAR EXAMS LIKE PART-B,PART-D,JC ETC.IN ADDITION TECH CORPS HAVE THEIR OWN COURSES WHICH THE OFFRS HAVE TO CLEAR.FURTHER U CAN'T BE PROMOTED IN CASE U HAVE DISCIPLINARY CASE/DV BAN,MEDICAL CATEGORY,BELOW AVG ACRS(SSC OFFRS ARE AFFECTED BY THIS AS THEY WILL NOT BE RETAINED).WE STILL CALL PROMOTION UPTO LT COL AS NON SELECTION.DOES ANY OTHER CIVIL ORG HAS ALL THESE.OUT THERE THERE IS NO SUCH THING IN MOST OF THE PLACES AND EVEN IF THEY HAVE ANY SUCH THING ALL MAKE IT TO THE NEXT RANK.IS IT POSSIBLE.ARE THEY EINSTIENS/SUPERHUMANS OR IS THEIR SO CALLED SELECTION PROCESS NICELY RIGGED/DESIGNED TO GIVE 100% PROMOTION.EITHER WAY IT IS A STRONG ENOUGH CASE FOR STUDY AND ANALYSIS.WE MUST ALSO HAVE SIMILAR SYSTEM, LET EVERYTHING ELSE BE DAMNED.IF THE ENTIRE COUNTRY CAN BE RUN BY PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT PROMOTED ON MERIT WHY SHOULD DEFENCE FORCES CONTINUE TO BEHAVE FOOLISHLY AND THINK ABOUT SO CALLED MERIT,WHICH NO SELECTION BOARD CAN ASSURE IN ANY CASE.TIME FOR DEFENCE FORCES TO WAKE UP TO THE REALITY.BUT WILL THEY???? WELL IF THEY STILL DON'T BABUS WILL KEEP EATING AWAY THEIR SALARIES STATUS QUICKLY AND STEADILY.WE MAY ONE DAY END UP LIKE "DWARPALS" TO THESE CUNNING SHAKUNI BABUS.

Anonymous said...

the govt and public are fooling the services by all this saying tehy want to delay it and later say that election is declaredand model code of conduct tehn new govt an dyr gone and all in cold storage. some thing can be done NOW and that to so taht the Public wales up. dont expecta nay thing from PM, and baus tehy r busy in geting votes and note (money ) before govt falls. Servces will continue to think some body is doing.. wake UP AND ACT NOW

Anonymous said...

Hello Navdeep whats the news on lt col being included in pay band 4

Anonymous said...

It's just few steps away.

Anonymous said...

How many steps :)

Anonymous said...

Mr PM do we expect a decision regarding resolution of anomolies from the GoM within a stated timeframe? How much patience do you expect from us ... It is probably time again for the three Chiefs to (politely) query the PM regarding the status of GoM ... and inform the rank and file. This silence on part of political leadership as well as military leadership is leading to rumour mongering and unnecessary disgruntlement. A reminder to the PM is definately called for at this stage....

esan said...

top ranking english speaking officers fight for their lakhs and who cares about the poor sepoy standing guard in the forefront in cold and hot, rain and shine losing even a few hundreds - See the previous pay commissions the ratio of salary from a soldier to general 1:10 now lost to 1:18.

Dost Of Fauj said...

Esan is very right.Fight of status and money should be for all ranks and there is NO DOUBT on that.But then,tell me officer of which rank is actually in a position to have reasonable understanding of issues as well as be connected with the troops?I think senior Major/Lt Col,isn't it.Now if he himself has been forced to fight for his own bloody self,how will he take up the cause of others and fight for them???