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Monday, November 10, 2008

History Redux !!!

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Some comments by officers of allied / mixed organizations and of the CPOs on this post make it imperative to go back to pre-3rd CPC days. While the rank pay (4th & 5th CPCs) alibi is being used to browbeat the forces into degraded submission, the 3rd CPC scales make it abundantly clear that the civilian Selection Grade (Rs 1650-1800) which was more akin to the Major’s scale (Rs 1550-1800 / Rs 1550-1900 for Maj Selection Grade) and was definitely inferior to the scale of a Lt Col (Rs 1750-1950) is now in Pay Band-4 with a Grade Pay of Rs 8700 whereas a Lt Col has been placed in Pay Band-3 with a Grade Pay or Rs 7600. But again some officers say that even the 3rd CPC could not be a point of comparison since the Special Disturbance Allowance (SDA) had been added into military scales. This argument too is specious since even if this line is agreed upon still the scale of a Lt Col was superior to that of Selection Grade. The SDA was granted @ Rs 45/- per month fixed for all officers upto the rank of Brig.

Prior to 3rd CPC, the starting pay of a Junior Time Scale Officer was Rs 400 and so was the starting pay of a 2nd Lieut with an additional Rs 45/- per month as the SDA.

The starting point of the Senior Time Scale in the 6th year of service was Rs 740 while that of a Capt was Rs 750 with an additional Rs 45/- per month as the SDA.

Now for the Selection Grade. The Selection Grade of the IPS @ Rs 1400 fixed was right in the middle of the scale of a Lt Col @ Rs 1300-1500. A Lt Col however received an additional Rs 45/- per month as the SDA. The IPS Selection Grade Scale was then upgraded to Rs 1650-1800 by the 3rd CPC while the scale of a Lt Col was upgraded to Rs 1750-1950. The SDA was abolished by the 3rd CPC. The term ‘Non-Functional Selection Grade (NFSG)’ used by the 6th CPC for 3rd CPC scales is a misnomer since the then nomenclature was Selection Grade (SG) and not NFSG. In fact even today there is no NFSG in the All India Services (Indian Administrative, Police & Forest Services) and the nomenclature still is SG.

The rest as they say is……Page 73 of the CPC

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53 comments:

Anonymous said...

The Service officers I knew during the past three decades were really royal guys. Not a single one amongst them ever discussed or knew even what was DA of perhaps even Basic pay.They were a happy lot,and enjoyed there jobs,were all ways happy and positive.Full of confidence. Had a charming bearing,lively,and it was always a pleasure being in there company.

Today they are doing calculations which predominantly was always done by civilians, or the pay section clerks.

Why did this change occur.

Can we get back the old and good thought process

Fighter pilots, Infantry officers, commanding officers oozed confidence and possessed great star presense

These pay discussion only create a different image of the services, something like a MUNSHIJI.

These are my personal views,and may be I could be wrong also

Thanks

righteous said...

then believe me....u r wrong ....

digvijay said...

I got commissioned in 1967 , my basic was Rs.475/- (Flying Branch)which was more than my two brothers ,IPS of 1963 & 1964 batch and also of my brother-in-law of Indian Foriegn service of 1961 batch. (this is when they joined their respective services ),also before the 5th pay commission I was in the bracket of 4500-5900 had reached the same much before my retirement in 1996. My basic was fixed at 17100 ( with rank pay )however my pention was fixed lower because of averaging of 10 months.Draw your own conclusions

Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeep there is no point putting up these facts since facts are no more relevant for the people concerned.

We ourselves are to balme for this kind of situation. We wanted MSP siting we are special and are different. (CDM has proposed this MSP at the rate of some % of the Basic pay). What we got is MSP as on date with out arrears. Then the CoS has moved Cols and Brig in to PB-4. Along with them the S-24, S-25 scales were also moved to PB-4 leaving the Lt Col in PB-3 .

With MSP we may be +6000 across the board up to Brig but in the bargain we lost out on arrears and status up to Brig. As a matter of fact we lost out from the lowest level to the level of Lt Gen.

To avoid heartburn, the best solution should be we dont need MSP. Give us the same scales on par with the GP1 services with no of years as the criterion for equivalence.

Note: for lt cols the loss as far as pension is concernedd 50% if left in PB-3.

Anonymous said...

HOw much would be the arrears that a similar service IAS officer get as on 1st sept say a IAS with a Col and a IAS with a similar service Lt Col can we take it up?

Anonymous said...

Brig Ranji has joined the National Security Guards (NSG) as DIG.

http://www.whispersinthecorridors.com/index_home.html

How can we expect parity if people are still after lower status posts?

Cdr Tyagi said...

I find that we are blogging away to glory and no one is bothered about these blogs, at least not the ones who matter- the hoigh powered committee appointed by the PM to ensure a decision before diwali. i think we can very comfortably wait for the decision as Diwali is some more months away, when a new Government will take the decision that it is all the fault of the previous government and therefore nothing can be done. May sound passimistic, but isn't it true that teh committee is busy in better things rather than waste time in looking at Services pay and allownces. is any one listening?

Anonymous said...

It is the biggest problem with service officer cadre that they always curse the outsiders for their condition. firstly not even 5 percent of officers are aware that what is happeining to them they are just busy in either trying to earn 9 pointer ACR or they are too young to think.
have you ever seen your own Cols and Gens how they behave. they forget all parity when they deal with junior baboos because their own interests are affected secondaly why do you peoples keep sweating unncessarily ohhhhh just because you less blead in war but my intelligen brother forget that you will need blead any more because china and pak are friends now and india is a super power because SINGH IS KING. so forget do not trouble yourself so when you are in peace areas just relax and do 10 to 5 job.
and when you go feild do as the CPMF are doing have you ever seen them going for patrolling in the night after ROP duties inspite of that they are senior now. so tell all your bosses to stop jumping when they see the two star and on ribbon in khaki.
forget india does not require defence forces at least that is what you can make out in the last 40 days if not then you are really dumb. no body from govt is even bothered to talk about you. media is just interested in that purohit only as if all other lt col are also culprit

Anonymous said...

@cdr tyagi
arre tyagi sir bas thodi si man ki bhadaas nikaal lete hai warna to hame bhi join karne se pehle kahan pataa thaa ki gulami karne ja rahe hain

Anonymous said...

@the first annonymous

Sir aap log do egg do peg aur do leg ke chakkar mein pade rahe tabhi to aaj major saab section officer ke barabar ho gaya hai

ab ye maat kehna ki isse koi phark nahin parta

Anonymous said...

EXCELLENT ARTICLE!!!! WONDER IF ITS BEEN PUBLISHED IN ANY NEWSPAPER.
by the way- who is this enlightened gentleman?


We need a permanent solution to this tussle over emoluments so that the armed forces need only confront the enemies of the nation, says T.R.Ramaswami



In the continuing debate on pay scales for the armed forces, there has to be a serious and transparent effort to ensure that the country is not faced with an unnecessary civil-military confrontation. That effort will have to come from the netas, who are the real and true bosses of the armed forces and not the civil bureaucracy. A solution may lie in what follows. This country requires the best armed forces, the best police and the best civil service. In fact that is what the British ensured.. By best one means that a person chooses which service he wants as per his desires/capabilitie s and not based on the vast differential in prospects in the various services. How much differential is there? Take Maharashtra, one of the most parsimonious with police ranks thus still retaining some merit - the 1981 IPS batch have become 3-star generals, the 1987 are 2-star and the 1994 1-star.. In the army the corresponding years are 1972, 1975, 1979. – ie a differential of 10-15 years. While the differential is more with the IAS, the variance with the IPS is all the more glaring because both are uniformed services and the grades are "visible" on the shoulders.



First some general aspects. Only the armed forces are a real profession – ie where you rise to the top only by joining at the bottom. We have had professors of economics become Finance Secretaries or even Governors of RBI. We have any number of MBBSs, engineers, MBAs, in the police force though what their qualifications lend to their jobs is a moot point. You can join at any level in the civil service, except Cabinet Secretary. A civil servant can move from Animal Husbandry to Civil Aviation to Fertilisers to Steel to yes, unfortunately, even to Defence... But the army never asks for Brigade Commanders or a Commandant of the Army War College or even Director General Military Intelligence, even from RAW or IB. Army officers can and have moved into organizations like IB and RAW but it is never the other way round. MBBS and Law graduates are only in the Medical or JAG Corps and do nothing beyond their narrow areas. Every Army Chief - in any army - has risen from being a commander of a platoon to company to battalion to brigade to division to corps to army. In fact the professionalism is so intense that no non-armoured corps officer ever commands an armoured formation – first and possibly only exception in world military history – General K. Sunderji. Perhaps it is this outstanding professionalism that irks the civil services.



Next, one must note the rigidity and steep pyramid of the army's rank structure. In the civil services any post is fungible with any grade based on political expediency and the desires of the service. For example I know of one case where one department downgraded one post in another state and up-graded one in Mumbai just to enable someone continue in Mumbai after promotion! You can't fool around like this in the armed forces. A very good Brigadier cannot be made a Major-General and continue as brigade commander. There has to be a clear vacancy for a Major General and even then there may be others better than him. Further the top five ranks in the army comprise only 10% of the officer strength. Contrast this with the civil services where entire batches become Joint Secretaries.



Even the meaning of the word "merit" is vastly different in the army and the civil services. Some years back an officer of the Maharashtra cadre claimed that he should be the Chief Secretary as he was first in the merit list. Which merit list? At the time of entry more than 35 years before! The fact is that this is how merit is decided in the IAS and IPS. Every time a batch gets promoted the inter-se merit is still retained as at the time of entry.. In other words if you are first in a batch at the time of entry, then as long as you get promoted, you continue to remain first! This is like someone in the army claiming that he should become chief because he got the Sword of Honour at the IMA. Even a Param Vir Chakra does not count for promotion, assuming that you are still alive. In the armed forces, merit is a continuous process - each time a batch is promoted the merit list is redrawn according to your performance in all the previous assignments with additional weightage given not only to the last one but also to your suitability for the next one. Thus if you are a Brigade Commander and found fit to become a Major General, you may not get a division because others have been found better to head a division. That effectively puts an end to your promotion to Lt. General.



The compensation package must therefore address all the above issues. In each service, anyone must get the same total compensation by the time he reaches the 'mode rank' of his service. "Mode" is a statistical term – the value where the maximum number of variables fall. In the IAS normally everyone reaches Director and in the IPS it is DIG. In the army, given the aforementioned rank and grade rigidities and pyramidical structure, the mode rank cannot exceed Colonel. Thus a Colonel's gross career earnings (not salary scales alone) must be at par with that of a Director. But remember that a Colonel retires at 54, but every babu from peon to Secretary at 60 regardless of performance. Further, it takes 16-18 years to become a Colonel whereas in that time an IAS officer reaches the next higher grade of Joint Secretary, which is considered equal to a Major General. These aspects and others - like postings in non-family stations - must be addressed while fixing the overall pay scales of Colonel and below. Thereafter a Brigadier will be made equal to a Joint Secretary, a Major-General to an Additional Secretary and a Lt. General to a Secretary. The Army Commanders deserve a new rank - Colonel General - and should be above a Secretary but below Cabinet Secretary. The equalization takes place at the level of Cabinet Secretary and Army Chief. If this is financially a problem I have another solution. Without increasing the armed forces' scales, reduce the scales of the IAS and IPS till they too have 20% shortage. Done? Even India 's corruption index will go down..



If the above is accepted in principle, there is a good case to review the number of posts above Colonel. Senior ranks in the armed forces have become devalued with more and more posts being created. But the same pruning exercise is necessary in the IAS and more so in the IPS, where Directors General in some states are re-writing police manuals – one is doing Volume I and another Volume II! Further the civil services have such facilities as "compulsory wait" – basically a picnic at taxpayers cost. And if you are not promoted or posted where you don't want to go they seem able to take off on leave with much ease. In the army you will be court-martialled. Also find out how many are on study leave. The country cannot afford this.



Let not someone say that the IAS and IPS exams are tougher and hence the quality of the officers better. An exam at the age of 24 has to be tougher than one at the age of 16. The taxpaying citizen is not interested in your essay/note writing capabilities or whether you know Cleopatra's grandfather. As a citizen I always see the army being called to hold the pants of the civil services and the police and never the other way round. That's enough proof as to who is really more capable. Also recall the insensitive statements made by the IG Meerut in the Aarushi case and the Home Secretary after the blasts. Further, when the IAS and IPS hopefuls are sleeping, eating and studying, their school mates, who have joined the army, stand vigil on the borders to make it possible for them to do so.



Remember that the armed forces can only fight for above the table pay. They can never compete with the civil services and definitely not with the police for the under the table variety.



Finally, there is one supreme national necessity. The political class – not the bureaucracy - which represents the real civil supremacy better become more savvy on matters relating to the armed forces. Till then they are at the mercy of the civil service, who frequently play their own little war games. At ministerial level there are some very specialized departments – Finance, Railways, Security (Home), Foreign and Defence, where split second decisions are necessary. It is always possible to find netas savvy in finance, foreign relations and railways. Security has been addressed in getting a former IPS officer as NSA at the level of a MoS. Is it time that a professional is also brought into the Defence Ministry as MoS? The sooner the better. In fact this will be better than a CoDS because the armed forces will have someone not constrained by the Army Act or Article 33 of the Constitution. Of course the loudest howls will come from the babus. The netas must realize that a divide and rule policy cannot work where the country's security is concerned. Recall 1962?



Our army, already engaged in activities not core to their functions, including rescuing babies from borewells (!), should not have to engage in civil wars over their pay scales.

Arvind said...

I admire and salute your efforts in research and study on the matter of ths VI CPC and its (un)doings. Howevera small niggling doubt - are your clarifications, comments, research and analyses being given a serious look by the powers that be? How are our manadarins going to be affected by what is being discussed and analysed through forum? Or do you have a mechanism in place which facilitates your interaction with our senior officers, babus in MOD and the PMO?
THANKS and keep up the great work.

Rohit said...

Read it on a Army Officer’s vehicle
”I have IT in me and believe you me IT is very painful”.

Further painful are sermons from anony @ ser 1.

Never again, please, sir!!

Anonymous said...

Dearest Anonymous jee 7.59 pm

Itna badda article likho ge to kaun phadega. This is one of the reason of our failures. Any opinions. Only god can save us.

Agar hum sub pb4 me abhi bhee gaye to mujhe purna viswas ho jayega ki,.. God has always been kind to us as normal human being would get irritated/angry after attempting to read so much.

Anonymous said...

dear navdeep,
as per third pay commission the scales were:

JTS IAS 700-1300
GP A 700-1300

STS IAS 1200-2000
GP A 1100-1600

JAG IAS -
GP A 1500-2000

NFSG IAS 2000-2250
GP A 2000-2250
(authority page 166 of fifth pay commission report)

2. MAXIMUM OF SCALE DECIDES THE SENIORITY. Lt col scale was 1700-1900. thus max of lt col scale was lower than that of JAG scale officer of .

3. col scale was 1950-2175 again its max was lower than that of nfsg scale officer.

4.In light of above statement that lt col was eqv to director may not be based on the facts. As per third cpc also lt col was eqv. to JAG level civilian officer.

5. again and again twisting the facts may give one self pleasure but it can not become truth.

god bless you

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous 10.33 pm

Who told that it is the max of the scale decides the seniority. In fourth pay commission there was a similar pay band for 2 lt to Brig (2300 - 5100). Applying ur logic only the rank badges of the officers from 2 Lt to Brig are changed but they all are of the same senority.

Please improve ur gen before writing on a senstive issue.

Thanks and enjoy the upgraded status. Don't worry we would catch u very soon.

Rohit said...

Remember Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start The Fire"
Sing on the same beat-

J&K, Nagaland, body bags, heavy toll,
misgovernance, rigmarole,
day and night, search and fight
nation’s pride, hyperbole?


CPC, PB3, GOM, Sonia Ji
Salary, Mockery, No respect, Seniority,
Sushma Nath, who is she?
Babus screw the army

We didn't start the fire
But when we are gone
Will it still burn on, and on, and on, and on...

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony at 10.33

The scales reproduced in the 6th CPC are the reason behind all that chaos.

Pray tell me why did you not reproduce the IPS and IFS scales too in your anony post ?

The end of scale principle to determine seniority of a scale is only applicable to 'civil posts under the govt of India' and the same has been clarified by the DoPT. In case the end is to be considered to determine seniority then a 2/Lt was senior to both EE and SE after the 4th CPC since the end of a 2/Lt's scale (5100) was more than the end of an EE's scales (4500) and that of an SE's scale (5000) !!!

Anonymous said...

@arvind

Navdeep sir is just trying to create awareness among service officers who are like KOOP MANDOOK.
just ask any officer hardly 5 percent knows what is this core issue they are either bothered about their drinks or just a 9 pointer ACR so they keep learning how not to open mouth till the time you become a governer of a state and then start speaking like few governer.

Anonymous said...

To All gentlemen In Uniform,

I would request you all to remember one thing. Whether the powers that be read all these blogs or not is not that much important as you all reading it and discussing it.

Before you demand any thing and convince someone else or make a case, one has to have a firm belief and conviction in the "idea". Self belief and firm conviction in ones's cause is the sine qeu non for the furtherance of ones belief.

For people in the Armed Forces these things must come natuarlly. Carrying our elaborate and down to earth detailed brifings to a create of sense of belief in the task are their second nature. So why some doubting Toms are crying here in old fashion.

One of the reasons of this state of affairs today is the result of a misconcieved and somewhat misplaced belief amongst some oldies that Civil Services are indeed superior. Armed Forces can not and should not ask for parity. This kind of belief is the product of thier incompetence and inability to get a fare deals for themselves rather than based on comparative merits. Their disdain for intellectualism within the organisation and giving too much to higher educated Babus is perplexing and part of the same personality type. Babus are not required to to be super educated or coming through top Class Competition. 50 percent resevation wherein the diffenrce between the top of the list and bottom of the selected list could be as much as 50 percent is but a lsur on meritocracy. Contrary to popular perception, the reservist IAS officers can be as efficient and more honest than merit IAS candidates.At the 50 percent reservation level of intake, even a Clark of Indin Army will get through. The whole point is that administrative efficiency has nothing to do with higher level of education. Kindly shed away that NDA menatlity / attitude.

Maj Navdeeps valuable eforts will go a long way in in achieving the first gaol. The Services oficers first of all must beleive that they are class A Services, they are not less than any one and they do not deserve less than any one. Armed Forces officers must kick out that higher education and tough Competition argument of IAS out from their mind.

Then only the other processes of agoal achivement will be firmed in.This is only foundation building. You are being told that it is a deliberated, sustained and ill intentioned efforts of IAS in main joined by the other Class A services to degrade the status of the Armed forces.

Unfortunately, whereas, the Competing bureacrates grab on each other territories and expand themselves, So far armed forces are concerned, it is purely a fight for MoD and nothing else. The MoD which is staffed by a very few IAS, two odd Foreign Services and IDAS and AFHCS are fighting aginst the Armed Forces to retain their Controll. They have been resorting to all sorts of nasty things even to the extenting of overruling the Cabinet decision to keep theselves on saddle. Rank pay and MSP interpretation is a clear example.

Keep up the fight, they are frustated and gone mad. You are wining....

Obama learnt the slogan of "We Can" form this Campaign....

Rohit said...

Well Said, Anonymous @11.34 AM

You joined NDA after a bloody tough exam. The civilians did not appear at all.

You drew the higher first salary. There is no rank pay for a Lieut. Hence- there can be no dispute that his basic was higher than the equivalant civilian.

Your chief, again has no rank pay, but his basic is higher/ equal to the top civilian.

Since you are higher at the start and end (without the civilians confusing the issue about rank pay), it is but logical that you should have higher pay at all stages of your career.

If the civilian says that he has come through the ICS, first-check his reservation status. Even if he is a cracker, he has not gone through 4 years of training, unlike you.

The only fear is the old foggie amongst us who feels that nothing can be done. Tick him off, straightaway.

Yes we CAN and we WILL.

Anonymous said...

Armed Forces have forgotten everything else in pursuit of their never ending quest for materialistic (read money) gains. I wonder whatever happened to the motto of 'service to nation', sacrifice and the pride of uniform for which they were supposed to have joined the armed forces in the first place.
They want to supersede everybody in the country as if this fight is their sole purpose to exist.
High time they should be disciplined with heavy hand lest they run out of control.

Anonymous said...

Since we were royal guys, we are meeting the fate now!

Indian army officer? The group B officer. said...

@annonymous

kyon dhuk dhuk kar rahi hai kya fauz ko naaraz hota dekh

Anonymous said...

@ annonymous 12:27 PM
Yes we joined army for'service to nation', sacrifice and the pride of uniform etc et all.

but as an Indian National u also ought to possess some or have u joined ur service after listening to Big B's song "Ram Ram japna paraya maal apna"

vats said...

Another officer in the race:-

Brig Jai Vijay Kumar has joined the National Security Guards (NSG) as DIG Commandos.

Source- Whispers

Anonymous said...

One has to study and analyse the scenario created by the babus and VI CPC in the back drop of nation's security. The ISI tried/trying it's level best to disintegrate the country thro' LIC wars like Kargil,proxy war, supporting insurgency, feeding naxalites etc etc the list can go on and on. Still they could not achieve any success in disintegrating India. This is mainly because of Indian Armed Forced which stand united and fight the enemy. Therefore ISI has found a new way to demoralise the armed forces. Look at the CPC report. Every rank and file right from Lt Generals to Lt Cols to PBORs are un happy. Many have left and many are planning to leave and those who can't leave due to the service conditions have lost the willing ness to fight the war. This is the acheivement of VI CPC. One can smell a rat in this. Has ISI infiltrated North and South blocks? Are there any ISI agents in our top administrative cadre? Now is the time that armed forces are to stay alert and guard the country's interest.we have to fight this also as LICO. Then only the designs of ISI can be defeated. Govt should also probe and take neceesary action

danny said...

@anno 10.33 pm 10 Nov 08

Firstly let me clarify there is no established method of comparison or classification of the pay scales of military with those of civil. Though within the civil scales comparison and classification is possible. only broad principles, if any, of comparison of scales may be applied with suitable adjustments ensuring fairplay and justice, which service officers feel, is absent from VI CPC report.

By the way, many of the figures given by pay commission in their tables are not correct. it has been brought out by Maj Navdeep Singh in his earlier blog. More examples can be given if required.

Anyway applying your principle 2 the STS IAS and JAG GP A both had top of scale of 2000 in 3rd CPC hence the should be equal. Do you feel JAG Gp A should then get Grade Pay of Rs 6600/ i.e. Grade pay of IAS STS?

Again applying the same principle some of Civil GP A officers will become junior to Civil Gp B officers i.e. their subordinates. S 16, 17,18 have top of scale of 9000, 9550, 10975 while top of the scale of Highest Gp B scale of 12000.

Do you want to apply this principle in civil itself? I think it will not be desirable in your interests only.

please refer to page 43 & 44 of VI CPC report where existing and replacement scales for civilian employees have been tabulated. The scales have been placed in hierarchical (ascending order) order from S-1 to S-34. The order(hierarchy) of the scales is continueing from their inception by V CPC. An exaamination of the table will show the following principles of emerging.

a) The start of scale is first and most important criteria. the higher the start of scale the higher the pay scale irrespective of top of scale. examples S 15, 16 & 18 are higher than S- 12-15 despite lower top of scale. another example is S 10 & S 11.

The only exception is S-28. But this is an isolated scale. page 46 of VI CPC is quoted here on this scale
"Rs.18400-22400

The scale of Rs.14300-22400 presently applies to very few posts in the Central Government. The scale was earlier available to Professors, etc. in Government institutes, almost all of whom have now switched to UGC pattern. As such, no rationale exists for retaining this scale as a separate scale. It is, accordingly, being mergedwith the next higher scale in the hierarchy."


b) If start of scale is same, compare the top of scale. eg S 31 & 32. 28 & 29, 24 & 25

c) if both these points are same compare rate of increment. no example since 5th CPC.

So far as military is considered the seniority has always been decided by rank. There are numerous cases of same rank having vastly differing pay scales though having same status.

Interestingly, the principles laid down by you have not been applied below GP A officers level. if you do that exercise you will get interesting results. But let me assure you justice and fairplay was exercised at below officer level comparisons and mergers.

What is painful for us is selective invention and application of rules when it comes to civilian officers. Same rules applied in letter and spirit will always be welcome by all.

Exchange of ideas with you will become more interesting if you choose to respond

rum said...

This blog is very informative and well researched.
I've added the link of this site on the profile page of the Indian Army community on orkut, to give this place more visiblity.

Lets hope the powers that be do read the posts, comments and discussons that have taken place here in various posts.

Anonymous said...

Comparing Civil Sercices with NDA

It's like comparing an IIT like exam with entrance exam of any abcd engg/medical college.I mean the difficulty level of the exam and the academic intellect required to clear the exam

Comparing a Civil Service qualified with a NDA is like comparing an IITian with any abcd engg college passout, Though both have same qualification( In this case Gp-A officer).This is meant only to assess the quality of people coming through these exams not to establish superiority of one service over the other.There should be good incentives in terms of promotions and perks to retain good people in crucial jobs like defence , Civil Services or any other job.


People from from elite institutes like IITs,NITs,AIIMS,JNU etc and even IIMs try hard to get into civil service but only few make it finally.Where as those not able to clear exams of even smaller engg and medical schools,try for NDA etc.Thats a reality my friends these days,Though, ideally this should not be the case.In my view even army should be able to attract equally good people.But, thats smth for which army is not to be blamed in anyway.....


Though the quality of people joining civil services has really gone down due to reservation and availibilty of highly paying mnc jobs but even those qualifying with reservation are highly competent and better then the best joining NDA/CDS or anyother UPSC exam.

UPSC selects a limited number of people for civil services and engg services in proportiona to the vacancies at the top,so,promotions are guarenateed which is not the same in case of other Govt Gp-A Jobs like Defence,DRDO etc

I read on this blog ppl saying that coaching institutes are making IAS/IPS etc. But, think about the standard of exam for which a university gold medalist,an IIT Toppper or a board merit holder is required to take some extra help. Just go thru this years merit list….The topper is a doctor with a full scholarship from Harvard University for PG. The
Second topper is a IIT Chennai Electrical Engg who worked for 2-3 years in a MNC and then left his highly paying job to compete for civil services but could make it in the fourth and last attempt the same is the case of who topped the exam. If such highly motivated people are required to put in so much effort and and wait for so long to clear a exam.One should probably be able to guess the level of the exam.

Dear friends I do not doubt on the professionalism ,work ethics and caliber of army officers. The level of professionalism and dedication is far better in army then in any other govt dept.But you should justify you demands by highlighting why you deserve that not by abusing other services people.Dont be cheap……behave decently.

Anonymous said...

@Anon above
Nobody is doubting the professionalism of service officers.
The issue is of mismanagement of MoD in representing the forces that has led to such a fracas.While I am inlined to take yuor word on the civil services exams being tough, the result in view of this botched attempt to degrade defence officers, is evidently contrary.
And, it does seem cheap to go to town albiet with a heavy heart. The fact is that the IAS has let us down.lash

Anonymous said...

Latest update

Following is the latest post by shiv aroor on his blog.

The PM's Answer
Wasn't expecting much of an answer from the PM, but I put the question to him nevertheless on the return flight from Qatar at dawn today. I asked him if his government had any plans of addressing the clear and present disenchantment in the armed forces over the 6th Pay Commission. He said, "I have constituted a committee under Shri Pranab Mukherjee, which also includes the Defence Minister. The committee is looking into it."
Posted by Shiv Aroor

Anonymous said...

@ all,
then why aren't the service officers allowed to write the IAS exam?
even with 6cpc, our officers would not be able to write the exam
Why is this so? can anyone answer me?
Let us accept that we are lower than IAS, then post our NDA, BTech etc, why are we not allowed to appear for IAS

Anonymous said...

Dear Major Navdeep,

This comment is not relevant to the topic. However, I felt that there must be some mention of India's and The Indian soldiers contribution to World War I, this day when the world around everyone remembers the 90 year. Would be much obliged if you could write a post about this. Sadly today I am watching news channels discussing (pun intended) the image of Army. And not one of them, which I watched for a few minutes with the hope of at least a mention about India's contribution and sacrifice to World War I,consider it worthwhile to mention it even in the passing.

My apologies to others who are discussing the topic, for intruding

Jai Hind.

Anonymous said...

dear navdeep @11.34 am 11 nov

your answer to my question shows that you are twisting the facts and you do not have real arguments to support your point. At least i never expected such a low level comment from such knowledgeable person like you. Anyway i have already communicated my point.

best of luck to you for running this blog.

soldier said...

@anonymous 11 Nov 526. The IAS exam is difficult you say; Agreed. Now with this do you want the licence to ground India to dust and rub the nose of forces in dust with impunity?? You are conveniently avoiding the issue of wrong doing of the Baboos( it an accepted expression and do not call me indecent for this ; media also uses it.) wrt the services. Why??? Is that how a rational and educated mind works?? And since you base everything on that exam how do you conclude that many cadidates who join NDA at such tender age will not qualify . And how conveniently you presume that even the candidates who come through the reservation route are also better than those joining the NDA. What an analysis. Who can agree to this illogical presumtion. And sans the motivation and love for this land what have pampered IAS fellows done to this land. They have ensured that only 10 paisa of the people's money reaches them and the balance these academically outstanding sons of mother India swindle and share the loot with the political masters and the media. And see what you have done to the public distribution system, the education the infrastructure , the law and order and all others sphere given to your charge. You all had ground the Indian Industry to dust till it was liberated from you. If the nation can be taken out of the clutches of the IAS it can achieve a growth rate of more than 10%. The litany of your crimes is endless. Actually the acid test of this all is the common man ; ask him and he will tell you your place in society . It is not for nothing that the lowly title of "Baboos" has stuck to you all so aptly and you are all kwon by thA the society who is decent and who is slimy between a soldiers and a Baboo. Please get real. you cannot fool all the people all the time. Bye !! Warm Regards

Anonymous said...

@ Anon 5:26 PM

Well said Mr Anon....the whole problem is arising because every time army officers is comparing themselves with IAS officers....forgoting that how tough the process of becoming an IAS officer is....what extra is required to be an IAS officer...Where else they should compare themselves with other Group A officers whose promotion chances are as dim as the army officers one...who also reach the director level after 18-20 years...there are lots of department where these officers are working..like postal, Revenue,other allied services, CPWD, Railways, MOST, etc etc...
Also look the responsibility an IAS or for that shake an IPS officer carries over his shoulder..
An army officer(barring infantry officers) do one or two tenure (2 to 3 years) in RR or AR and then do rest of there job in peace area enjoying all the facilities of army...Yes army officer retires early but then they also join early...An avg IAS officer joins at the age of 28-29 forGen catg where as An NDA pass out get commissioned at the age 21 from IMA
..lead of 7 to 8 years...Still the condition of an Army officer is a bit more tough due to frequent transfers( min 1 yr to max 3 yr) and tough promotion chances...an upright and straight Army officer can never reach beyond Lt Col rank( as this rank is time scale)...But For that only army officers are getting so much facilites and MSP over there salary.

Anonymous said...

It is obvious that the Armed Forces have been dealt with unfairly. Who would hear the hue and cry being raised on blogs in this din of politico-bureaucratic noise? PM appears to be blind like Dhrithrashtra and is too weak to control Duryodhan of IAS(Indian Avtar Service). All are waiting for the modern Krishna to motivate Arjuna to undo the wrongs.
Where is Krishna and is there an Arjun? Anon today.

Anonymous said...

@ all,
its sad that capts/maj who fought in kargil so heroically (now lt cols) have to literally beg fot their due.
what has the nation come to.

Anonymous said...

Doston pb4 aaye ya na aaye par his hangame ne fauz ko nanga kar diya. Jo thodi bahut izzat thi woh bhi khatam ho gai.

Sad and dejected

Anonymous said...

@annoy 10.42

you are a true Fauzi its seems you joined fauz for spiritual satisfaction

Anonymous said...

@annony

well done keep it up
it should motivate your kids to join army.

Anonymous said...

Is this is what the Babus (who,we are unfailingly reminded, has passed some tough exam) have achieved ?
Made the fellow, who bears arms for the country(and hasn't passed the tough exam)grovel for his status in governance?
If this situation persists please send your children to USA as the PM of this country has done. There will be no India to protect.

Anony Too said...

Comparing Civil service Exam with NDA.

Well, the Civil Service exam is tough no doubt but the NDA entrance exam was taken after class XI, and we were among the brightest in our school. So who knows, by 28-29 yrs of age, a few could have got through. By their 4th attempt at least.
On the other hand, any shortcomings in educational qualifications would have been ironed out through the 4 years training which the ex NDA officers go through.

Many of us have since completed M-tech from an IIT and MBA from a top business school but did not find any great shakes in the faculty or students at either place.

As regarding the bright IAS stalwarts, we do not have any direct comparison in the Indian Context, but army officers over the years have led their respective countries quite successfully.

What do you think? Anony at 5.26 pm on 11 Nov.

Anonymous said...

dear sir

everyone is bright at the beginning of their respective careers whether defence or IAS or IPS, etc

everyone stands first in school in the nursery

Everyone becomes dull at the fag end of their careers.

Most of us are average and below average, and we all learn to hide our incompetences very well due to our years of experience

Everyone of us in pb4 and above have reached our level of incompetence.

It is necessary to be a little incompetent at the top, so that less problems exist in this world

Look at the way all the competent guys destroyed the entire bankink systems in all countries more so in the USA.

Let us all be happy with what we are getting as we all either have reached or reaching our respective levels of incompetences

The only guys who should be paid well should be the PBOR's.as they really are the ones slogging it out

Ofcourse the formula on levels of incompetence may not apply to a miniscule few who are original and also creative, such guys should be placed in PB 10

Thanks

Anonymous said...

@Anony Too said.November 12, 2008 12:29 PM

Dear friend if you are from the Army engineers corps/DRDO...Just tell me which school did you graduated from. Dear friend You know people from top institutes do not sit for DRDO/Army in campus placement...I have nothing to say abt people who try for these jobs.MES people are even better at least they come through UPSC and only 5-6 each year, not in hundreds.

Secondly, you said that you people too acquire MTech/MBA from IIT etc.So let me tell you it is something that is offered to you because you are working in defence DRDO/Engg Corps etc, it's not because you achived a very high GATE/CAT score.had you not been in that job you know where do you stand exactly.

Certainly you won't find anything to learn in IIT/IIM like institute if go with their with your army ego.Next time you get a chance to go there go with an open and flexible mind..to learn smth.

Anonymous said...

Dear ANNO @ 12nov 3.30 pm
Comparing Civil service Exam with NDA.
Please see the list of MTech toppers of any IIT
You will be surprised to see toppers are predominantly SERVICE OFFICERS . Inspite of
competion from Fresh Graduates FROM IIT with GATE who do nothing but study whereas our guys from army navy n airforce look after family kids and a little of service work
Dont underestimate SERVICE OFFICERS
I openlychallnge all this egoistic guys who feel that they have created a record of sort by clearing UPSC to copmete in any forum .
most of these guys WILL BE BEATEN UP IN any kind of CPMPETION by our OFFICERS
ANY IAS /IPS worth his SALT please comeup and take CHALLANGE

lokesh said...

Someone has mentioned earlier about a doctor and an IITian joining the IAS after being motivated ..... I think the question is what use is the degree that both individual have received at govt cost.Such people are ... i feel confused not motivated rather then allowing them to join the IAS they should be working in the govt/public sector where their education qualifications may be put to good use .... the medico should be employed in the health sector and the techie in the pwd/drdo whatever may be his area of expertise. I think the govt should consider this seriously

Anony Too said...

@Anony 3.30 PM 12 Nov

Either your grammer is bad or you are frothing as you write. Both ways, I don't believe you are a ICS. If you are, indeed, it does give everyone here a lot of confidence.

GATE/ CAT Scores? What were yours? No of attempts? Kota/ Delhi?

Anonymous said...

@lokesh
sir
if they do not join IAS how will they those crores in commission and the power for that

Anonymous said...

Dear Fauji brethren, I suggest do not mess up y0ur case further. Ask 50% more pay than a civilian group A officer on year on year basis. Reject all the allowances except wartime, like ration, reservation of children etc etc. Let there be no difference at all in any perks, not even a mm. It will be transparant 50% increase which people will know and readily join Army. To day you suffer due to Army's own world of perks which are opaque at at best, and blind to those who wants to join army.Thanks

Anonymous said...

Let the powers that be understand that it is the ARMED FORCES alone which can deliver the goods. They are always prepared to sacrifice their lives to protect and defend the country. They are always there to restore internal peace when the civil administration fails and looks for Army's help. The question is not about passing exams. All that needs to be seen is as to who fills all the roles needed by his country.

Anonymous said...

MATERNITY LEAVE Anyone
pl let me know if the maternity leave rules to 180 days are implemented. Also wish to know on authority about same if it is implemented.