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Tuesday, April 14, 2009

Useful and must-have information for all defence personnel : Comparative tables of military and civil service appointments in States and the Centre

The status, appointment and pay comparison between various services such as the IAS, IPS, IRS, IDAS etc against the backdrop of the military is pretty confusing to most.

I have prepared a table / chart / ready-reckoner for the same which each and every officer of the defence services should have access to. This table has taken into account the scales laid down after the 6th Central Pay Commission. A separate table of status comparison in accordance with the Warrant of Precedence is also reproduced under the tabulation. Anyone who is unable to download the same may email me.

Please fee free to distribute amongst the military community.

A print-out of the above document (with footnotes) on legal size paper is highly recommended for all.

34 comments:

manav musings said...

SAB KI BAANCHE KHIL JAINGEE

we had been saluting all and sundry who mattered all our serving life.

the question still remains--- can we change the situation even after knowing the actual facts?

These guys-- all of them hold absolute power in their respective fields like we have in our respective spheres. But we are powerless outside.
They are likely to gang up against Armed Forces officers.
How many bother to reply when we write officially concerning our jawan's problems??? Now RTI will give us some probing power thats a different matter.
I am not a pessimist, but knowing how things work is not allowing me to think positively.
But this table can be used to make a begening.
well done and thank you, my friends on my mailing list are going to start printing in next hour or so.

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep Sir,

Firstly, what an excellent piece of work there by an otherwise extremely preoccupied Officer / High Court Advocate! The first gentleman who happens to be the first among us to have served comments on this effort of yours has sounded skeptical and pessimistic despite not wanting to be so. It just takes very little extra courage to denounce any superficial superiority and some sense of self esteem in showing anyone his/her right place if some complex of oneupmanship is noticed. It must simultaneously be remembered that others have their own dignity and self respect too and that ought not to be hurt at any stage. But, that certainly does not mean sirring any tom dick and herry to achieve our petty ends or out of ignorance or innocence. Sir, you have amply educated the environment on the subject and each one needs to imbibe these valuable inputs and put them into practice in day to day life tactfully. If one continues to be scared of certain interests being adversely affected by those in a position to extend help if sirred and cause damage if stirred, nobody else can be responsible for the state of self inflicted and unending humiliation. So, please don't be apprehensive and don't feel yourslef powerless outside. Power lives with those who consider themsleves to be powerful both within and outside.

Secondly, service officers often come in contact with officers/staff of Defence Accounts/Audit Department. Either we visit them to get our things done or they visit us to audit the unit accounts etc. It has often been noticed that their class ii officers of the rank of Accounts Officers tend to equate themselves to Captains and mostly expected to be addressed as sir by the latter. Their Sr accounts officers tend to compare themselves with Majors and wait for the latter to wish and regard them as seniors. Ask not about their clas i heavyweights. ACDA starts comparing with Lt Col, DCDA with Col, JCDA with Brig and CDA with Maj Gen. AEs of MES behave like Captains and EEs (STS) like Lt Cols. Similar may the case with other civil servants, not knowing about them as they hardly come in contact.

Next, there is a dire need to establish status parity of Sub Maj (GP 4800), Sub (GP 4600), Nb Sub (GP 4200), Hav (GP 2800) with their civilian counterparts. It is understood that all promotions to the ranks of JCOs are promulgated in the Gazette of India (published by MoD), however nobody (particularly on the civil side) seems to believe that even Sub Majs and Subedars and their equivalents are Group B Gazetted Officers of the Govt of India. This issue had once gained momentum about 9-10 years ago when civilian class II (Group B) gazetted officers had demanded that since they were not eligible to draw ad hoc bonus (paid to non gazetted govt employees just before Diwali every year) because of their Group B gazetted status, JCOs of armed forces should also not be paid ad hoc bonus. And, ad hoc bonus was denied to JCO / eqvts that year. As a result, a number of JCOs and eqvts represented and wanted an official clarification if they enjoyed the status of a Class II (Group B) Gazetted Officer. Months passed and finally an amendment order was issued by the govt authorising JCOs ad hoc bonus and clarification, if at all issued - I don't think issued, was never forwarded. These aspects need to be clarified through a govt order to grant the JCOs (at least Sub Maj and Sub eqvts drawing GP 4800 and 4600 respectively) the rank and status parity with class II Gazetted ranks on civil side. This can partially make up for the shortage of junior officers as they can automatically be appointed in place of first/second rung officer ranks and share the responsibilities of adm / secretarial work with formalised authority as authorised signatories of Govt.

Further, is it possible to get an order issued from the concerned ministry/department (President's Sectt/MOHA) to the effect that parity of civil ranks with military ranks is to be determined purely on the basis of universal grades of pay (FUNCTIONAL GRADE PAY only) as indicated in the Tabulation provided by you since ACP Grade Pay is awarded to benefit the govt employee only monetarily without promotion to higher rank/status. The order should also clarify about the disciplinary / penal action that may be taken against a junior govt official for not respecting a senior govt official regardless of the department/org/unit to which such govt employees may belong (both military and civilian personnel included). Warrant of Precedence is scarcely of any relevance to most government servants as it accommodates only high ranking office-bearers from Maj Gen/JS to GoI............... uphill....

Last but not the least, it appears somewhere in the footnotes of the Tabulation that JAG Police Officers are designated as Assistant Inspector General (AIG) when appointed in their HQ orgs. You may like to re-check on this issue as I firmly believe that even their STS officers (I suppose IPS only) are also designated as AIG when posted to their HQ organisations.

Rest in next...... thanx n regards, abc

Anonymous said...

Talking of our so called Class 2 officers (JCO cadre) as very few take the pain to discuss their pangs and plights. There is a well established and accepted rank and status parity of Subedars with Inspectors of CPO/CPMF/State Police. Sub Maj is clearly one rank senior to all of them. In some CPOs/CPMFs Sub Maj is a promotional rank for Inspectors (Subedars). Then, why should Subedars (eqvt to Inspectors) be made to wear only two stars while their equivalents in CPOs/CPMFs/State Police Orgs wear three? Similarly, Sub Inspectors are equal in pay as well as rank/status to Naib Subedars. Why should then Nb Sub wear only one star while their equivalents in Khaki wear two? Grade Pay of ASI of CPMF/CPO, whereever the rank exists, and that of Havildars of armed forces is equal ie 2800. Why should then Havildars (Army)not be granted to wear one pip on his shoulders. Oh, forgot to mention, all of them are required to wear a cloth strip on outer side of their stars which would indicate their being JCOs/Subordinate Officers (except Havildar of Army who wears three chevrons just like a Police Head Constable who is supposed to be junior to both ASI and Army Sergeant). In fact a Head Constable is only equal to a Corporal in both Grade Pay and Status. Don't we think it is our own systemic fault which is not liberal enough to grant our soldiers their rightful and proper insignia on their uniform so that they can face their real equals in civil world with pride. Major Navdeep and others....... food for thought......!

Anonymous said...

Probably group B gazetted officials of defense accounts deptt are ignorant of the fact that all commissioned officers of armed forces (hon officers may not be so?) are Class I/Group A Gazetted Officers right from the second they are granted the President of India's Commission on a parchment bearing the President's Commands and dated signature. Or, maybe they pretend to be unaware of these facts, or maybe their Class I bosses (Asst CDA onwards) have instructed them to behave such as if eqvt to Capts/Majs so that ACDA and above are by default assume superiority over Lts/Capts/Majors. What a clever manoeuvre! Both Class I and Class II gazettes officers (Gp / Gp B gazetted now) have also been seen taking the shelter of a Cabinet Sectt note on rank equivalence, which when taken seriously by Service HQs, was found to be unsigned, unclaimed and fictitious one circulated by some status hungry babus at the pinnacle of jealousy against Soldiers of the Soil. When inquired, Cabinet Sectt also refused to own that fictitious Note. Post SCPC, Sr Accts Offrs are being placed in PB-3 with GP 5400 on promotion from Accts Offr to Sr Accts Offrs but they continue to be Class II (Group B) gazetted officers as the upgradation is only on non- functional basis just like our Honorary Commissioned Lieutenants. Accounts Officers remain in PB-2 with GP 5400. ACDA also draws GP 5400 in PB-3 but senior to Sr Accts Offrs because officers ACDA onwards are Group A officers and others continue to be Gp B offrs. Also, some of the Group B Gazetted officers like Direct Entry Section Officers/Desk Officers/DANICS/DANIPS etc are upgraded to PB3 with GP 5400 on completion of four years regular service in that grade, however the upgradation is purely non functional and limited to financial benefits without any rise in their status as they are still not elevated to Group A status. But, why should these self styled and imaginary beneficiaries even try to make an effort to accept the fact that the Note was a plot intrigued by certain grudgy people within the system to project the armed forces officers at such downgraded rungs and cause discontent and downturn in their morle. All civilian government employees need to be educated of the fact that commissioned officers are class I (Group A) officers and any comparison by civilian employees below Class I(Group A) is BOGUS. Our dear buddies on other side of the fence should by now understand and realise that armed forces people now care enough for their rightful status and are fully aware of who stands where - the earlier the better! Maj Navdeep may kindly consider doing some blogs on issues involving Class II civilian gazetted officers/JCOs/Subordinate Officers of Police-PMFs etc. Afterall, JCOs and below always expect their masters/superiors to fight for their rights and safeguard their interests. That is how we can uplift the spirits of our brave soldiers.

jo said...

I do not think the compilation is correct. GP determines seniority only within the cadre. or else total pay including BP,GP and MSP will determine status, therefore Lt Col are senior to directors of IAS as before the sixth pay commission...
what say you major Navdeep?

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@jo

The compilation is purely a comparison on the basis of pay after the 6th CPC. The warrant of precedence would determine status for ceremonial functions.

The BP+GP+MSP status idea recommended by the 6th CPC has not yet been accepted by the govt.

Anonymous said...

I want to raise the hornet's nest.


Since my commission 25 yrs ago (pl also note that I am a Army Brat, so my Army Experience direct and some- what indirect is 44yrs)I have been fed the belief which I tend to agree in my Senior days that Our JCO'S do not perform the tasks which is assigned to them as per the WE.
That majority of this lot becomes indifferent the moment their entry to JCO Mess is assured. It is as I pointed out before, is largely true.
It is a vicious cycle. They are not given responsibility due to perception of their inefficiency and they tend to take shelter under that umbrella.
Facts do stand out.
No of dead/wounded in ops in comparison to OR'S and Offrs is a clear indicator, despite exceptions like Sub Chunni Lal and SM Bana.

But in Air Force and Navy these same appts are a source of strength. Asst Adjt in AF Unit, a JWO/WO sign documents, same in Navy. But in army we shy away citing inefficiency. They then prove us right.

Best is that except our Sub Continent, nowhere this rank layer exists.

If all other Def Forces can survive without this Rank why this British Legacy is continued here? Does British Army have it?

What is the alternative?

Removal of this layer from Army is a political hot potato.

Let me ask fellow officers to put hand on their heart and seek right answer.

If we want them then, then GIVE THEM POWER to work with dignity and extract pound of rightful flesh from them. They should be casualty in the rightful proportion in ops.
If we DO NOT WANT THEM then answer is obvious.


What does Decision making ferternity say.

ITS A HORNET'S NEST.

Lets stick our neck out. Am I anti services by raising this subject?

I better stay Anonymous. I am not brave enough.

Anonymous said...

Dear sir
I know this is not the right place to ask a query? but i want to know Is there any law for civilians for disobedience of order. After the PM has said yes to PB4 for Lt cols the finance ministry is still not taking any action.secondly if i m not wrong the PM was the finance minister also, is in`nt not following constitutionals order, even if there is a flaw thta can be solved later, can something be done abt these issues. kindly reply if u hav time

Anonymous said...

well, we have got the comparison table and thanx to navdeep sir for enlightening us on various issues.

Now is the time to ask what are the resp of these babu`s. I have failed to understand after clear orders from PM house granting PB4 to Lt Col,How can the finance ministry stop it? I think this is disobedience of orders? why cant babu`s be penalized for the same.

I am not sure but I think finance ministry was with PM before The PM was hospitalized and these orders were given by the finance minister who is the head? can`t we ask them questions for non implementation of PB4? If it is because of deputation that clause can be clarified by them later on!

I m sure there would be some way to sought out babu`s????

They cant hold us for ransom any more! We must make these babu`s pay from their pocket for causing delay or let them get punished for using their powers for disruption.

it would be gr8!they get punished.
sir can you do something on this?

Anonymous said...

Everyone here seems to be believing clearly that Grade Pay is meant to determine status/seniority within a cadre. If that is the case then how come it has been cent percent ensured by the government that a particular scale of pay of the central govt across the length and breadth of the globe (central govt servants posted to Indian Missions abroad included) is granted a uniform Grade Pay. For example, a civilian officer in JTS is invariably and unfailingly granted GP of rupees 5400 regardless of the cadre (IAS/IPS/IFS/General Central Civil Services Group A) he or she may belong to. So is the case with other scales like STS/JAG/NFSG/DIG Scale/SAG/HAG. Of course, there is no grade pay attached to HAG+, Apex Scale and Cab Secy scale, but then their scales are completely analogous.
Let's for a moment accept that GP is to determine status/seniority within a cadre and not between the cadres. Going by the adulterated official version of Grade Pay, if defence officers are granted higher grade pay as is being demanded by them relentlessly, it will in no way affect whatever rank equivalence exists between civilian officers with defence officers just as higher grade pay of Junior Commissioned Officers and their equivalents in other sister services is not affecting group B civilian gazetted officers drawing grade pay lesser than JCOs or at the most equal to JCO and still commanding JCOs / eqvts as their superior officers. But then, let's not have an iota of doubt on this front. Despite all out efforts, Lt Cols have been granted PB4 but with reduced GP of 8000. If GP doesn't affect status between cadres, then they should have been rightaway given GP of 8700 instead of carving out an exceptional GP of 8000 and if it was reaching equal to GP of Colonels then GP of Cols and above ('within the cadre' case) could have been enhanced appropriately to keep them at a higher GP from their junior ranks. But that has not been accepted and will not be accepted as long as possible. If GP is not the basis to determine seniority and status between various cadres, then what else is the yardstick for doing so? Or in the absence of any basis to ascertain seniority between the cadres, more powerful ones automatically grant themselves senior rank and superior status over the less powerful ones and powerless ones?! It can be seen from various rules formulated at the State Govt level also that grade pay of employees has been fixed in such a way that a senior post in any cadre or department always draws more GP than his/her junior post. This has even been ensured while granting grade pay to those eligible for higher pay band/grade pay under ACP. So, the bottom line is that it is different said than done. GRADE PAY IS VERY MUCH THE ONLY BASIS FOR DETERMINING SENIORITY BETWEEN THE CADRES. THE ONLY THING AGREEABLE HERE IS THAT EMPLOYEES OF VARIOUS CADRES IN LOWER CLASS/GROUPS CANNOT CLAIM EQUIVALENCE WITH THOSE IN HIGHER CLASS/GROUPS. FOR INSTANCE A GROUP B GAZETTED OFFICER CAN NOT CLAIM EQUIVALENCE WITH A GROUP-A GAZETTED OFFICER EVEN IF THEIR GRADE PAY IS EQUAL. AS YOU ALL KNOW, A NUMBER OF GROUP B GAZETTED OFFICERS ARE DRAWING GRADE PAY OF Rs 5400 AT SOME POINT IN TIME OF THEIR CAREER, HOWEVER THEY CONTINUE TO BE JUNIOR TO EVEN JUNIORMOST GROUP-A/JTS OFFICERS IN GP 5400 BECAUSE GROUP-B OFFICERS ARE GRANTED HIGHER PB AND GP ON NON FUNCTIONAL (HONORARY) BASIS WHICH DOES NOT ENTAIL ANY ELEVATION IN THEIR STATUS. SIMILAR IS THE CASE IN ARMED FORCES. AN HONORARY LIEUTENANT DRAWS GP 5400 BUT CONTINUES TO BE SUBORDINATE TO A LIEUTENANT ALSO IN GP 5400. AN HONORARY CAPT IN GP 6100 ALSO REMAINS CLEARLY JUNIOR TO BOTH A LIEUTENANT (GP 5400) AND A CAPT (GP 6100) AGAIN BECAUSE THEIR FUNCTIONAL STATUS CONTINUES TO BE THAT OF A JCO AND HONORARY COMMISSION CONFERS THEM MORE MONEY, MORE BENEFITS AND MORE RESPECT FROM THEIR JUNIORS.

Hope the above lines throw some light on the issue.

PK said...

@ Navdeep.
What could be the logic considered by the PM for the GP of 8000 for Lt Cols. We are dying to know.
Although, I must admit that we'll probably be dead before we come to know why our rank pay did not multiply like the basic pay in 5th pay commission!

KB said...

This table is a good reckoner - but for what?

Even if we know the equivalence, will our counterparts know? Will they give us desired respect as deemed by this table? Will he respect me when i walk into his office during the course of my work?

And if not, then what recourse do i have - to act like a constipated gentleman demanding respect at the drop of a hat from all and sundry? Will that not make me "ungentleman"?

I suppose this table should be given to the bureaucrats to whom it is equally applicabel. So that "we" - us n the bureaucrats - can work with respect, pride & sincerity towards our nation in our chosen lines of profession.

Otherwise, this is again a "coffee table table". Good for browsing and nothing more.

Anonymous said...

what so ever is written on this blog is good to read and thats it.Not even a single issue is agreed by the govt.Just by writing /reading on this blog we have not achived it just give us false sense of seniority

Anonymous said...

Hello Sir,
When I joined Air Force some some 55 yrs back, our three Chief's protocal at Govt. level was much senior starting with President/PM /Defence Minister and so on, now we all know, where we stand. Was it not right at taht time to correct.
Who is to ring the bell.
When, I joined service, a 'Corporal' rank had lot many responsibilities then now.
If JWO in AF can take rseponsibilities of Asstt. Adjt. and so on, I think our Senior brothers 'Army' should adopt immediately.
Thanks

Anonymous said...

Neither I have your email address nor can I open the page. could you kindly send an email of the comparative table of the status at my email address -
snpshahi7@rediffmail.com

thanks. May god bless you. you are doing a good service.

LT.COL.HS DHAM( MAHARS ) said...

The time has come to project the deficiencies in the Armed Forces vis-a-vis Civil cadre with a very careful, diplomatic and systematic approch. The damage already done since 1947 has fully accumalated in the 6th Pay commission.For this tragedy partly our senior Rank and File and partly due to ignorance of projecting the problems inheirent to Armed Forces is responsible for the over dominance of Civil/Political nexus. What ever crumbs which were thrown to us were readily accepted by our Seniors with false promises for future, which only aggravated and degraded the system.The Ex Servicemen organisations should therefore approach each and every issue without too much crticism of Political/Beaurocratic heavyweights
and be cautious of overstepping into the prerogatives of the Serving Chiefs of the The Armed Forces(they have their own limitations). Voting rights of Armed Forces should be exercised without any bias/blackmailing. Leave it to the individuals to vote for deserving maybe from any party, yes if any Ex- personnel fights the election logically should be supported without character assessinations of others.Beg appraoch the issues at hand without bias and over exaggerations towards reconcialations honourably.God bless the Country,the Armed Forces and all other sister organisation of both Civil and Forces. Let us approach the problems as Good Soldiers/Citizens.Jai Hind Col Dham

Anonymous said...

I think the only way we can restore some sort sort of Status back for us is to change our Badges of Ranks .
A Lt should start with a three stars, a captain with a Ashoka emblem, a Major with an Ashoka and a Star, a Lt Col with an Ashoka and two stars and red collar tabs and so on up the chain.
At least then the eqivalence with the Police will be maintained.

Anonymous said...

All select Colonels and Group Captains with three years seniority deserve to be placed in GP 8900 just like their equivalents in the Navy and all of them be constituted as Brigs/eqvts in navy and airforce once granted GP 8900. Lt Cols / eqvts in navy and airforce should be entitled to wear collar tabs and be granted GP 8700 on completing 13 years of service including one year of training just preceding the date of grant of commission. Majors could be given GP 7600 on completing nine years service including one year of training. The idea of promoting Lts to Capts in four years incl one yr trg with GP 6600 is not at all bad. Captains with six years of service to their credit incl one yr trg be promoted to Acting Major with two extra promotional increments but without any change in their Grade Pay till they complete nine years service as suggested above. This should by and large take care of parity issue as an interim relief till such time parity in pay and status with civilian officers by number of years of service put in is accepted.

Max time taken to reach the rank of full Colonel/equ in other two services be reduced to 15 yrs and constitution of select Colonels and equ to Brig and eqvt be effected at 18 years of service. Lt Cols not making it to select rank of Colonel be promoted to Colonel(TS) on completion of 18 years of service with full parity with select grade Colonels in all respects. Such Cols(TS) be conferred the honorary rank of Brig on completing 25 yrs of service with GP8900, triangular flag, one star plate and red light on their official veh as entitled to regular constituted Brigs. However, they be not given appts tenable by regular Brig/equ officers and be made to retire compulsorily on completing 26 years of service.

Extra funds required to meet the above proposal be generated by defence officers of the rank of Lt to Brig by surrendering their monthly MSP by upto 2000 bucks if need arose so that officers get 4000 rupees as MSP as against 2000 rupees admissible to PBORs to make the difference balanced and justifiable.

Maj Navdeep sir, will you pse have little time to react to this stray viewpoint.

Anonymous said...

With reference to bloggers comments at 9.41 pm on 15 Apr 09, sir, do you firmly think that IPS will not follow the suit to change their rank badges to project themselves equal to Army officers as they have been doing ever. When IPS officers with much lesser number of years of service were authorised to wear badges that were otherwise worn by their seniors in Army, it was promised that IPS won't claim equivalence with army officers on the basis of rank badges and that there was an internal requirement of wearing higher rank badges. But, how they behave today is purely on the basis of what they wear on their shoulders. They preach their subordinate service officers that Dy SP must claim equivalence with Captain of army and addl SP of state police service with Majors, clearly keeping themselves above army officers, thank God next only to God!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only way to ensure parity in pay and status is by ensuring equal pay and status for those having equal number of years of service including one year training period. We start writing Batch number along with rank as is done by IPS/IAS etc......clans. Service/Seniority of all fauji afsaraan must commence from 01 JANUARY ALWAYS AND EVERY TIME AS IT HAPPENS IN CASE OF ALL INDIA SERVICES OFFICERS. THEIR RULES AND REGULATIONS AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE NEED TO BE COPIED AND MADE APPLICABLE IN TOTO FOR FAUJI AFSAR TOO. THAT IS THE ONLY AND THE ONLY WAY OUT TO REMAIN IN.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,

There seems to be some error in this latest compilation. Could you please similarly post what was the status before 6 cpc?

Thanks

PK said...

Anon @ 1011

"Extra funds required to meet the above proposal be generated ... surrendering their monthly MSP by upto ... make the difference balanced and justifiable."

Yours is not a stray viewpoint. Getting 'bribed' by the MSP to lowers ones's status cannot be acceptable to any one. And a few ignorant naysayers who'll haggle over money only have to go thru informative sections of this blog to discover how the AF have been shortchanged, by a thousand cuts - to borrow Gen Zia's phrase.

MSP is an important part that attempts to renumerate tribulations of military life. It needs separate consideration in addition to what the judge Srikrishna managed without a mil member on the commission.

Having said that being persistent with logic and quite determination on part of the chiefs, rather than emotional outbursts on our part, is more likely to achieve parity.

I clarify: Being emotional includes all between extremes of 'craving to shoot anything that moves and not in uniform in N and S blocks' and 'being embarrassed at being offered a paltry MSP or suggestion of tax breaks'.

Ramani said...

The 6thpc had recommended that Full Colonels Rank be given on completion of 15 years of service(of course with the usual stipulations like passing reqd exams etc.)
However this appears to have been scuttled.Why and by whom?
can you throw some light on this Major Navdeep.

Harry said...

@ Maj Navdeep

Sir, thank you so much for educating us on equivalent rk/grade structure between AF and civilian cadres. But may I request you to also further enlighten us by including IES, MES, BRO, DRDO cadres as well and also No of years of service required to attain that particular grade on the civ side as also the % of offrs making that grade. This
would really put things in correct perspective!

Thanks in adavnce!

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep sir, the comparison table is an enlightening contribution from your rich knowledge treasure that will come handy to many generally unaware of the parity issues. May i request u to kindly publish one such equivalence table of PBOR ranks vis a vis civilian equivalent posts as well. After all, they (pbor) too are supposed to be familiar with where exactly they are entitled to stand and breathe alongside their equals in the civil world. Most times pbor are taken for a ride by civilian people in govt jobs who may otherwise be much junior to them in protocol, both by misusing their power and by narrating some non existent analogy of rank/post. i once read somewhere in a compendium of a book of law, vaguely recollect it had something to do with CrPC, that military personnel of the rank of Havildar/jco/eqvt are defined and to be treated as officers when engaged in aid to civil administration. Is that true? your close association and expertise in the business of law will certainly elaborate and clarify the matter better.

Anonymous said...

Annony @ 1011pm 15 Apr

I fail to undrstand why do u want to retire a time scale Brig after 26 yrs of service?

Apply yourself. Solution to our problem is uniform retirement age of 60 Yrs as existing in civil ofcourse with liberal exit policy for officers who are not interested to continue.

Everything (promotion, parity etc) will automatically fall in line.

A well wisher

Anonymous said...

Dear Navdeep,
can u take some stand for Lt Col in PB4. govt does and WILL NOT DO ANY THING..
only people like u can make a change and show some light.
by the way will any babu b answerable for the delay and will that babu/govt give the Lt Cols 12% interest for the duaration which CDA cooly deducts as penailty ....
hope u will now take some action as IT IS NOW 2 LATE/DELAYED.

Sathye said...

@ Harry at April 16, 2009 10:20 AM
The table of pay/status relativity compiled by Navdeep is very useful.

It gives matter of fact Group A equations between the AF and All India Services including IAS.

The equivalencies of IES, MES, BRO, DRDO as required by Harry @ April 16, 2009 10:20 AM can easily be found from the corresponding positions in IAS & Group A Services under Central Staffing Scheme.

These being all India Civil Service cadres must learn to find their place with other all India Group A Services under Central Staffing Scheme.

Why do you seek to palm off this Job to Maj Navdeep? He is doing a yeomen’s service in creating awareness amongst the personnel of Armed Forces and kindly do not digress him to issues that are irrelevant to the discussion.

Anonymous said...

I just throught that it would be right for Honorary Brigs to retire at 26 yrs of service respectfully, becoz they can't expect further growth in service nor will the Service treat them as Desirables after conferring honorary rank. But, they will still be left with some sparks in them if retired at 26 yrs of service to flourish in civil/corporate world rather than languishing in Service under their juniors. Yes, if every FAUJI retires at superannuation at par with civilians, then your solution is unquestionably the best. I only wish either of the suggestions you and I made were heeded by those at the helm! You may be aware that for AVSC I to come through, Services had pleaded for faster promotions to keep the fighting force young. Don't you think our stance of asking for everyone's retirement at 60 years of age will be counterproductive to defeat our own logic? If you have some novel logic and reason to justify, it would be a most welcome thing to happen for all FAUJIS!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

I AM AMAZED BY THE SOME COMMENTS HERE IN WHICH SOME OFFICERS ARE FEELING GREAT AFTER READING POST 6TH CPC COMPARISON, LEAST REALIZING THAT THE CURRENTLY POSTED COMPARISON IS WITH A DEGRADED STATUS OF ARMED FORCES AND THEY ALL WERE SENIOR TO THE CURRENT COMPARISON IN 5TH CPC.

JAGO FAUJI JAGO...

MAJ NAVDEEP KINDLY CONSIDER POSTING 5TH CPC COMPARISON TOO HERE BY ADDING EXTRA COLUMN IN THIS TABLE ONLY SO THAT A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF ISSUE TAKES PLACE, AS MANY OF US IN FAUJ ARE USED TO READY MADE DATA AND CANT APPLY THEMSELVES.

pawan said...

dear anony 3:11 pm
you have not raked up any hornets nest. you have only stated the facts. there are few good jcos, but they are really few. There entry level and educational standard (particularly english) also limits there utility. Most of them are not evaluated like officers in SSB for essential leadership qualities. Most become yes-men and sign any documents without going into much details or merits. The only document they are really careful to sign is a "warning letter / performance counselling).
The only way is to start a direct "Hav" entry with min qualification as 12th through all india competition and SSB with slightly relaxed standards. 50% of Jcos be through this entry. 1/3rd to go upto Maj/Lt col (50% Coy Cdrs). Only then we will be able to speed up modernisation.
I am not afraid hence not anonymous
request comments from bloggers and Maj Navdeep

Anonymous said...

@Anony apr/16 08.59 pm

Uniform retirement age of 60 years will allow all those who wants to continue to work even after missing ranks. The optin should generally be with individual and not with govt to retire an individual before 60 yrs.

In addition we should have a liberal exit policy( with 3 months notiice except for extreme citcumstances during out break of hostilities) for those who wants to leave after spending an intial 7-10 yrs depending o the branch and cost incurred on trg.

Simulteaneosly we should also remove permanently passed over system. The last 7 ARs may be considered for any officer to get his next rank with a small percentage weightage to the seniority may be given in any board. This will ensure officers who have missed the bus to keep aligned and waiting for the next bus and thus working as per the orgn requirement. We may decide these oldies to put on staff/trg duties.

The day uniform retirement age is enforced in services govt would be forced to give us more higher ranks/may be lateral shifting to Defence PSUS/Paramilitary/MOD HQ etc.

Let the wisdom prevail in all of us.

Best wishes and regards

Tapan

Sathye said...

@ Harry at April 16, 2009 10:20 AM
The table of pay/status relativity compiled by Navdeep is very useful.

It gives matter of fact Group A equations between the AF and All India Services including IAS.

The equivalencies of IES, MES, BRO, DRDO as required by Harry @ April 16, 2009 10:20 AM can easily be found from the corresponding positions in IAS & Group A Services under Central Staffing Scheme. These being all India Civil Service cadres must learn to find their place with other all India Group A Services under Central Staffing Scheme.

Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeep Sir,
Lt Cols/Cdrs/Wg Cdrs are currently designated as joint directors when posted at Service HQs. Now that their pay band is being upgraded from PB3 to PB4 and grade pay is also being elevated from 7600 to 8000, will their designation also be upgraded (may be ADDITIONAL DIRECTORS) or they will continue to be called JDs and treated equal to civilian JDs in lower pay band (PB3) and drawing lower grade pay (GP 7600)?

Anonymous said...

lt cols should be getting a grade pay of 8700.

then u can guess what should be their designation

jt dir
addl dir
or director.

if degraded status in pb4 is acceptable then calling it jt director or addl director dosen't matter.