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Saturday, June 18, 2011

Guest Post : BeeCee says more than before

Regular readers would be aware of BeeCee’s earlier posts on the blog. Well, he seems pretty disturbed by certain issues which he has tried to address through the below reproduced communication to me. Though these are his own personal views and I may not subscribe to all his observations regarding the Services HQ, still his write-up may be an eye-opener about the damage already done. I do however agree that we, in uniform, have been sending conflicting signals to the establishment and have not been magnanimous while placing our demands before the govt or the CPCs. To take an example, when the VI CPC downgraded the ranks of Col & Brig and equated a Brig with a DIG by granting them an equal Grade Pay of Rs 8900, instead of a seeking a Grade Pay of more than 8900 for a Col for retaining the earlier edge (Col had a start of Rs 17100 while a DIG started at 16400 during the V CPC) we as a corrective measure sought a Grade Pay of Rs 8800 for a Col and accepted the Grade Pay of Rs 8900 for a Brig thereby tacitly and incorrectly sending out a signal that we had agreed that a DIG was senior to a Col and was equal to a Brig. Whereas the correct way out would have been to seek a minimum Grade Pay of Rs 9000 for a Col. Only if we ask for it would there be a chance of getting it !. Another example – in many mixed organizations, Lt Cols (V CPC start of Rs 15100) were and are functionally equated with Director level officers (Rs 14300 in V CPC) and at places were even writing ACRs of such civilian officers but our very own office of DGAFMS still has an Army Order in vogue that states that Deputy Secretaries (V CPC start of Rs 12000) can write the ACRs of Lt Cols !!! So whom to blame ? the bureaucracy or our own lack of deeper understanding and reluctance to keep on board people with expertise and rather being satisfied with GD officers who run the show with ‘minute sheet’ culture in all such issues including CPCs.

Anyway, here is BeeCee’s mail and I may again reiterate that these are his own views :

Dear Navdeep,

I happened to speak to some long retired Major/ eqvts fighting for an improvement in their pensions, and to some other officers regarding OROP recently. I was surprised by the extent of damage and it is quite clear that this is not going to be resolved till officers (serving/retired) understand what the real problem is, and find a permanent solution. I am once again reminded of our friend Pragmatic's quote from Chesterton, "It is not that they don't know what the solution is, what they don't know is the problem".

I have been generally following such issues since '95 but am not aware of any occasion between 1987 (IV CPC) and 2007 (VI CPC) except the High Level Committee post V CPC (3 Vice-Chiefs, Def Sec & Secy (Def Fin)) when the Services HQ put up a reasoned case for the arrest of the downslide that started at the IV CPC. Ironically, implementation of this was undermined by another Committee comprising of the Chiefs and the Cabinet Secy. Therefore the most important issue is for Services HQ and retired senior officers to come clean and connect the gap between their public posturing and what has been actually sought from the Govt, CPCs etc. Officers react or offer comments based on the 'public posturing' of such worthies while GOI/ MOD/ CPCs respond to what has actually been asked for by the Service HQ. As long as this gap is not bridged, replays alternating between tragedy and farce will go on. Karl Marx may be out of fashion now, but his remark on history is apt for our pay/personnel issues.

OROP and Major's Pension

Despite a reasonable understanding of pay/personnel issues, I cannot comprehend the on-going OROP theatrics. I may be wrong, but Pension rules providing past pensioners 50% of the minimum of the relevant ‘replacement pay’ in the new pay band actually provide something very close to OROP for all. In any case, the argument that you are progressively getting ‘downgraded in pay' and a demand for old pensioners to get the same pension as new ones do not exactly compliment each other. I hope I am wrong, but I suspect OROP is another red herring and an effort to cover up somebody's monumental incompetence at CPCs and of course at the Bagga/ AVS report. This is starkly evident in the Major's predicament on pensions.

I have seen some blog commentaries, approach papers etc on OROP. Most of them state that the Lt Col is getting too much as compared to the Major, Lt General gets too much over Maj Gen or arguments in a similar vein, by comparing the pensions of different military ranks after Vth and VIth CPCs. I have not seen any discussion that compares the pensions with similarly placed Civilian, CG or CAPF officers. While I too haven't done a full calculation yet for lack of access to specifics, I am confident that such a comparison will not only show where the problem lies, but also expose the dismal complicity of Services HQ in the denial of dues to their own officers.

Take a look at the pension orders for pre-2006 pensioners. In principle, it is the same for both military and civilian officers. 40% increase above 'existing pension,' subject to 50% of the minimum on the 'replacement pay'. Sounds fair and just. But gets absolutely unjust when you look at the actual figures.

A long retired Major and a Director/Comdt(SG) had similar pension and would have similar increase in pension when you do a 40% addition to 'existing pension'. But when you take 50% of the minimum of 'replacement pay', the Major gets 14,100/- and the Director/Comdt gets about 23,050. The civilian effectively gets almost twice the pension of his pre-VI CPC military counterpart. Any surprise that the ‘Civilian’ scoffs at OROP and is laughing all the way to the bank. The Major doesn't know (and doesn't bother to find out) what hit him and as a matter of habit gets in line behind a bunch of guys shouting OROP, OROP making a spectacle of themselves and the veterans community in general. But how did we come to this pass?

It is the Services HQ through Bagga/AVS report that sought the degradation of the Major to 'minor'(from NFSG/Above JAG pay to STS level). This was implemented by the VI CPC. Did they not have the wit to realise that OROP will ensure that retired Majors also would have their pensions reduced to the STS level even though it was earned at a much higher scale?

It is not only Majors, even after the Bagga/AVS instigated downfall, the Lt Col was at par with Director/Comdt(SG), but for some inexplicable reason, Service HQs sought equation of the Col (who was above DIG by pay, service, protocol & pension till the VI CPC) with Director/ Comdt and of the Brig with DIG. This has led to a fall in the pension for all such pre-2006 pensioners and pay/status of officers post VI CPC.

To an observer, the whole situation would be comical. You first have a bunch of guys asking for and obtaining a reduction in pay, status and well earned pension. Then you have them again surrendering their hard won medals in protest because the GOI generally agreed to their own demand of reduction in pay and pension through Services HQ. No wonder the political class is confused and others are sniggering at such displays of incompetence laced with threats of emotional blackmail. Are retired officers so semantically and arithmetically challenged that they cannot see matters for themselves and call those responsible to account?

What the pre-2006 Maj/Lt Col/Col/ Brig should seek is not OROP, but Restoration of pre-2006 pension with the same improvement (in percentage terms) over existing pension as has been given (by the VI CPC) to similarly placed civilians. Do this simple extrapolation (which will exclude the AVS/VI CPC interventions from Services HQ) and see the results. Services HQ in any case do not have the mandate to propose a reduction in the pension of those already retired. I would also suggest seeking some penal compensation from those who brought officers to this sorry state.

I used to call these as self-inflicted damages. But that is not really true. These are damages inflicted by selected individuals against their own colleagues. CPCs, MOD, bureaucracy et al may be complicit in the crime. After retirement, they compound matters by calling for OROP, return medals, hold jamborees at Jantar Mantar and so on to continue leading the credulous up the garden path. But if they claim to speak for all ESM it is an insult to my (and many other veterans') intelligence.

In retrospect, I feel really relieved that the scope of the CPCs and Cadre Reviews did not cover uniforms. Or else, our 'experts' would have proposed 'the Emperor's new clothes' for those serving. May sound funny, but past experience is depressing and indicates that our guys would have not only worn them happily, but strutted about in them like the Emperor in all his glory.

I know these are harsh words. But it is time somebody blew the whistle on these shenanigans that have taken away the financial security and dignity of officers and reduced them to the level of supplicants. Nor does it speak well of the officer corps that the individuals responsible are not shown up for what they have done.

Above all, I do not understand the compulsion of Services HQ to be less than forthright with serving and retired officers. This fudging of the factual situation leads to delusional behavior by some officers, abusing all and sundry and generally making a laughing stock of themselves. What is worse, it is symptomatic of the lack of 'downward accountability' that seems to have become the norm at Service HQs. Services HQ need to merely publish the following data in respect of the VI CPC(include IV & V CPC too if you want to see the full extent of perfidy) to start an informed discussion.

A. Pre VI CPC pay of officers vs corresponding/ nearest civil pay scales
B. Services proposals to the CPC regarding pay grades and equivalence of officers
C. Post VI CPC pay of Service officers and the corresponding civil scales/grade.
D. Pre and post VI CPC pensions of the above officers.

No one needs to take my word on this and I am willing to have a public conversation on the subject and apologise if I am wrong. Hence I am posting it to many who may have an interest in resolving the matter. You may also post it on your blog if you think it's appropriate.

All the best



Rajax said...

Brilliant article by BeeCee,
Navdeep Thanks again. I still don't understand why and which points you do not agree to. I had reached the same conclusion independently and have posted the same views to my coursemates - who are sceptic (well! Army Officers still don't believe their Service / "Higher" HQs are clueless). Of course BeeCee's article is proof that what I was talking about was independently verifiable & provable that others have reached the same conclusions (and written about it exceedingly well).
Bee Cee makes a perfect point that we don't know about OROP and have joined a bandwagon, ESMs don't know what they are asking for and .... God help the nation and us from ourselves.

"It all makes perfect sense,
Expressed in dollars and cents" - Roger Waters (Pink Floyd). Amused to Death

Anonymous said...

dear sir,
these r my very own personal views and i may very well be wrong but i wish to lay down what i think may be yhe cause.
1.when we joined the army talking about money , perks and privileges was the taboo thing, the reason given we r in the army for the love of country and if making money was the motive then leave army and join the civil or other govt dept.
2. if we never talked about money or perks we felt insulted talking about little emoluments and pennypinching when sitting across those moneyminded civilian bureaucrats and tried to pass off our ignorance of the long term implications by showing off we did not care two hoots if some emoluments were not raised in the same manner as the civilian counterparts, afterall we r not in the army for the love of money.
also we saved money for the govt exchequer.
3. thirdly and worst of all we created our very own caste system where in the name of keeping a young army and pyramid structure we ensured we lost out quite a few good if not brilliant but outspoken officers who were ready to speak out a few unpleasant truths and show the mirror to those who were hypocrites. so it was that not more than 50 % in infantry or fighting arms and almost 30% in services only made it to colonels rank and then it was all yes sir yes sir 3 bag full.
afterall the best way to keep dissent down is to say wait for your turn and amend any wrongdoing when you reach that position.
we can't be like politicians and blame everyone else but ourselves.
i think it is hightime we the officer cadre took the blame and learn to listen and understand the topic instead of pushing any unpleasant facts under the carpet perse.


I am going to write my comments in two parts.Part I
The Govt had put the issue of OROP in the public domain for the stake holders to air their views. Bee Cee should have given his views before the Rajya Sabha Petition Committee. It is rather too late.
The deteroiation in the pay and allce have not come about overnight.It started from IV CPC onwards.The sliding should have been arrested at that point of time.There was a chance to carry out a correction factor at the VI CPC but that too was missed.Now everyone is crying blue murder. All this could not have happenned without the connivance of the Service HQ and the gullible bureaucrats. Quite possible for their personal benefits the rest have been sacrificed at the alter of CPC. It is pertinent to understand what has happenned from IV CPC onwards. Many of us even today do not know how to calculate our pension and salary and leave it to CDA.High time we woke up and stood for our legitimate dues.


Prior to III CPC military pensions were in Vogue.For JCOs/ORs it was 75% of last pay drawn and for offrs 50%.For Civs it was 33% as they served longer till 58 yrs.The III CPC reduced the pension to 50% and increased that of civs to 50% with a stipulation that to earn full pension one must serve for 33yrs which was favourable to the civs as all served till 58 yrs while the armed forces personnel retired in their early 40s/mid 50s.The defence personnel were at a disadvantage as most of them retired early and would never be able to reach the top of scale to earn full pension.Thus started the decline of pay & allce of men in uniform.


Frankly speaking there is no legitimate equivalence between the armed forces and civs.The relativity is artificial/arbritary.
At III CPC, 2/Lt (750-790)/Lt(830-950)was equated with JTS(junior time scale)(700-1300)and Capt(1100-1450) with STS(1100-1600)& Major(1500-1750)with JAG/Dy Secy(1500-1800)
Enough research has been done by RDOA since they are handling the rank pay case in the Supreme Court to pin point what went wrong.
The IV CPC introduced the running pay scale for offrs from Capt to Brig (2300 to 5100)akin to running pay bands of VI CPC.The IV CPC also gave 'Rank Pay'to be paid in addition to the pay. Something like Gradepay which is paid in addition.
A faux paus took place at the time of implementation of IV CPC.An amount equal to rank pay held by the offr was deducted from the total emoluments and then his pay was fixed. Thereafter the rank pay was added resulting in the offr loosing pay equal to rank pay and depression of the pay of offrs (a very clever and decitful move). This got compounded in the V CPC as the rank pay was doubled. So the pay scale got depressed further.The pay scale was depressed by an amount equal to rank pay.eg Lt Col 15100(13500+1600 rank pay)So a Lt Col with 15100 was brought down to 13500 and his comparison with civ scale of 13500 started.Likewise it happenned to Major/Capt/Lt. 2/Lt having been abolished by V CPC.

Anonymous said...

Well, a great analysis. But does it lead to solving the problem? The post shows that it is the Service HQ which have not done the job? OROP is not justified? what else is there to know? any one for solutions ? NFFU, DIG/Col, Col TS and ColSG . Maj's pensions? Rank pay case? no body seems to be knowing what to do? High level committee?

I only wish someone will take us through? So many thinkers; think tanks: No solutions in sight?

While we think, why cannot we ask for what gp A services get with some supplementary benefits for being in the defence services. And hopefully complete our thinking before the next pay commission?


The integrated scale introduced by IV CPC was discontinued by V CPC and rank based scales were given.Here again the correct equivalent scale was not given.eg
Civs(10000-325-15200) equivalent to Capt(9600-300-11400)plus 400 rank pay.Actually it should have been 10000-300-11800 plus 400 rank pay.So the Capt started getting equated with 9600.Same principle applied to Maj/Lt Col upwards. Further downslide took place since the rank of 2/lt got abolished equivalence started with Lt/Capt with JTS.Maj to STS and Lt Col to JAG.
It is here the sliding down should have been arrested when pay scales were shifted from the integrated scale to individual scale.Pay wise we got fooled again or we let ouselves to be fooled. Let us take the eg of Lt Col again.In V CPC he should have been fixed at 15100 plus rank pay, but he was fixed at 13500 plus rank pay as 1600 was deducted from pay scale.Again at the time of fixation an amount equal to rank pay was deducted resulting in further loss of pay.So 1600 got deducted twice.Once at the time of deciding of scale and again at the time of fixation.Letters were issued that rank pay will not be taken into account for status equivalence.So pay & allce as well as status suffered.No action taken by Service Hq/veterans at the damage.
Part II to follow.

ninihala said...

You have a point. Please do all of us a favor. MoD or any service HQ is not going to publish this data. Please compile the data yourself and put it on the web.

sl said...

I could not proceed beyond the point that made a case that OROP had been granted by fixing pensions at the minimum of new scales. Such a view is flawed and is in line with reasoning amongst a section of veterans and serving personnel alike that has proved to be so self-injurious that others need not have lifted a finger to deny the defence personnel their dues. Any understanding of OROP needs to be based on the underlying principles.

Anonymous said...

@Satty's Corner 11:05
Well said,sir. 'Thus started the decline....'. Now that 33 yrs service is not valid for those serving, it is but logical to remove it for ALL past pensioners. It will mostly benefit the gallant soldier.

digvijay said...

Probably SATTY'S CORNER ,has hit the point absolutely correctly .We in uniform are the ones who are very narrow minded & mean & have no exposure whatsoever to handle situations like status & pay .Always obsessed with what one wears on the shoulder & not what he has in the upper storey .


“The rank pay was carved out of the pay scales of officers” VI CPC report is testimony to this fact. VI CPC also abolished the concept of rank pay. By all legal/logical accounts if rank pay has been abolished, then it must be restored first before deciding on new pay band for officers; which has not been the case. The much halla gulla about Lt Col in PB4 is total hype. He ought to be in PB4.Justification: If a civ drawing 14300-400-18300 & 15100-400-18300 in the pre revised scale has been placed in PB4 and given grade pay of 8700, then why should’nt the Lt Col get the same amount as he too was drawing 15100(13500+1600 rank pay) but though the Lt Col has been given PB4 he has been denied the GP of 8700 and instead given 8000 cause the Service HQ could not defend it. Next I come to fixation. The civ drawing 14300 has been fixed at 38530 and that drawing 15100 at 39690 whereas the Lt Col has been fixed at 37400.Why? There are no answers but mute and willing acceptance which the courts only can restore. The pension also got disturbed. The pension of 14300/15100 has been fixed at 23050 post 2006. In case of Lt Col it should be 23050 plus MSP 3000 ie 26050 whereas it is 25700 after addition of GP & MSP. So even inspite of getting MSP the CPC has ensured that you are looser and civs will say you are getting MSP.


A Maj Gen retiring today gets 36750 as pension whereas a pre 2006 MG gets 26700. The cost of living for both is same post retirement. There are no separate stores for pre and post 2006 retirees. Cost of onions is same for both. Why then such a difference? A MG with 30 yrs service is considered to be SAG (Senior Adm Grade) and compared with a Jt Secy with 20 yrs. There is something cocky. By all accts a MG and Brig should be in HAG (Higher Adm Grade). Lt Col/Col are comparable with SAG/Dir. This is the most appro equation. Once the rank pay gets merged, the basic pay of all offrs will increase. Armed forces have a rank based structure.How can then a Brig draw more pay and pension than a MG(Maj Gen). Again something wrong which is coming all along from IV CPC.
Coming to the issue of Bagga/ AVS. The IV CPC had recommended abolition of promotion boards from Maj to Lt Col and Lt Col to Col which was accepted by the Govt but never got implemented for reasons best known to Service HQ & MOD. Thinking-what we will do with so many Lt Col/Col. Bagga and AVS created vacancies for Brig/MG/ Lt Gen. So again what are you going to do with so many Gens. I feel a restructuring of the armed forces will solve lot of promotional problems and ensure everyone reaches the level of Brig if not MG before retiring. A very fair proposition and a non functional upgradation can be given to Brig so that he gets the pension of MG and MG of Lt Gen. This way the problem of OROP will also be taken care of in line with what IAS/IPS/Central services get. This is possible only if the service HQ has the will and the veterans can push for the case rather than going to courts. More to follow

Anonymous said...

It may not be sounding nice but truly speaking,the various mode of agitations on the issue in the last couple of years have since proved ineffective/futile.In the process of disciplined approaches to the Govt.,different reputed organizations,headed by very senior veterans,are just spoiling their credibility.The question is, whether these organizations do have the capacity to fetch justice to the veterans any time in the future? Today's scenario,at least,do not indicate anything in the affirmative !
In the largest democracy of the world,attitude of the related Govt. Bodies to the veterans of the Defense Services should have been adequately healthy and encouraging but unfortunately,that is not there.
I am afraid of any negative impact of all these on the morale of today's troops who are going to be the veterans tomorrow and if so happens, that will be really disastrous.
Article of BeeCee is definitely meaningful,eye-opener, informative and may be taken care of by all the organizations/associations who have been working towards making justice available to the retired soldiers, by way of a fresh analysis of the total damages that we have created for ourselves so far and then pushing forward a very strong and effective approach to the respective heads of the Govt with the expectation of a favorable decision in the days ahead.inis

BeeCee said...

Dear All,

Let me offer some responses to the comments so far and the general approach.
The general reaction seems to be that we have a very complex issue at hand that is hard to resolve. I don't think so. It is a simple issue made unnecessarily complex by the cussedness of 'some'.
In theory,had the Service Hqs not put up any proposals to the IV/V/VI CPCs and by way of AVS/Bagga report, Service officers also would have continued to be governed by the civil norms of pay scales. The Maj(SG)/Comdt(SG)/Director would have continued to draw similar pay at the 14th year. Those above and below would have benefitted as per the norms.This was prevented by the Service Hqs with their 'we need to be different(read inferior)' proposals. The result is there for all to see.
All that is needed is for Service HQs to tell the Govt that they made a mistake and need to revert to the civil norms of pay determination and scales. That is all.
I have read the III/IV/V CPC reports,our proposals at the V CPC and the post VI CPC presentation to RM. It only re-inforces the above view.
@ nihala
I don't have the specifics to publish the data. Maybe RDOA has it.Your comment elsewhere that the AG did something positive post V CPC will not pass the 'laugh test'.
@Satty's corner
Appreciate the depth of your research, but some of the info seems to be from those who were part of the problem. I have written separately to Secy RDOA on my reasons for not going to the RS Committe. In any case these are problems created by Service HQs and will not be corrected unless they approach the govt for correction. I am fully with you on Mil pensions. OROP is different.
I still can't calculate my pension but that doesn't prevent me from seeing the 'macro' picture. Perhaps the error has been in entrusting these things to those who can see only,and not beyond, their personal stakes.
Your underlying principles should get you Mil pensions, not OROP.

A B Mehta said...

BeeCee has awakened old wounds. There is no doubt that our bosses at the respective CPCs finalisation had taken narrow views related only to the Chief's position as equivalent to the Cabinet Secretary. Post independence some downgrading wrt to elected representatives was natural but why wrt to beaucrats for lower than the Chief?
One possible suggestion(I do not know about its long term implication) is to abolish the Lt Col rank and call them just Col and make Wg Cdr and CDr (IN) equivalent to Col. Make the current Col as Brig. DO NOT have Brig Gen rank. Further make this change retrospective to include pensioners and fix pension accordingly from 1 Jan 2006.
Any comments? would it create more problems?

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir, would be grateful for comments of learned friends on the following quarries:-

(a) What is the way forward from here? I do not understand the logic of discussion amongst ourselves (only) that how our civilian counterparts are real beneficiaries of pay commissions in the past.I do feel depressed and discouraged reading these updates. I wonder if such comments are a bigger danger than the enemy by demoralizing the serving soldiers.

(b) As mentioned somewhere in the write up that Action must be taken against HQ officers who brought us to this pass. Does the author know who are they? What Action? Which way? Does it help us in any way.can you name them? Otherwise what is the point of stories except for general entertainment.

(c) My humble submission is that either accept what we got or else get up and fight. Do not just lie there and whine. I have observed that nearly 99 percent of posts on chatbox are only on how we became poorer,how our superiors are incompetent,car price in canteen, rank pay and such other benefits. Where is the Jawan and fauj? I am not complainingly to be polite but we need some introspection ourselves. However, if we have to fight, I am with you with all my heart and soul.

Please pardon for my straight words.

warm regards.

Captain Arun Kumar

Anonymous said...

Hi Navdeep, Satty and others,
Enlightening to say the least. My take on this is that we going to the Govt on this may result in it being shot down as the damage is now getting to be at the preceedent level. In my humble opinion we need to take the matter to the Courts and fight for our rights right from the begining. What's your opinion?

Anonymous said...

I really think that Capt Arun Kumar @ Anon / June 20, 2011 4:10 PM has hit the nail on the head.

As Navdeep would agree, for too long have we been going on about this 'loss of status', 'low promotion prospects' ec etc. What is the way ahead? is the right question. I would request all the wise men here ( Navdeep , Satty, Ninihala, Orig Harry etc)to put their views together, reach a consensus, prepare a solid presentation and through a few retired officers like BeeCee etc approach the print media. There is simply no point stating the same stuff on this chat box. No one but us reads it and we too find it sounding a touch helpless.
Why dont some of the veterans actually get together and do something rather than write repetetive articles on this forum.

Lt Col(retd) Dr. G Kameswara rao said...

All the discussion amongst ourselves will only be confined to this blog, which only we go through. All you PUNDITS who have elaborately made out their case need to give concrete proposals of what is to be done to get us all out of this mess, and follow up the same to their logical conclusion of getting the powers that be to agree to remedy the situation. Shouting from roof tops will only bring back an echo and the chaps who have to decide the matter will continue to laugh at our naivette ! So many differeneces among ourselves in identifying the problem itself are cantenkerous, it appears.As far as the common soldier is concerned, mostly he is unaware of what he is losing out monetarily as well as status wise. 99% of serving soldiers of all ranks do not know what their entitlement is and whether the paying office has credited /remitted the correct dues in their IRLA. When I asked a serving Brigadier, on the verge of retirement, whether he is getting 25 % NPA on the MSP also or only the basic pay and grade pay,as per the VI CPC, he did not know ! A glance at his statement of account I had, and I found that MSP is not included for computing the 25 % NPA. Not only he but all the serving officers I asked were ignorant of the same! So the various Veteran Organisations-RDOA,IESM,IESL et al, as well as individual Serving personnel and Veterans would do well to put a stop to the bickerings against one another and come together to put up a common front in this regard. Firstly , identify the specific nature of the problem and then place the same in a cogent and lucid manner before the adminstration for its resolution. We have been shouting OROP, MAJORS' pension should be raised, rank pay should be restored wef IV CPC pay fixation, Status downgrading is belittling,and in this blog itself different voices have differnt perceptions on these aspects. When there are so many voices the administration is taking advantage of the cacaphony and is brushuing aside the issues. Do I sound discouraging? The multiple disagrements between all our spokespersons are surely discouraging. Would they all kindly be more positive in their approach and actions,please?


There are many who still don't know what went wrong at the IV CPC and wrongful deduction of rank pay inspite of the whole case being put on the website.Tha rank pay case is in the final stage.The decision is already in our favor vide judgment of 08 Mar 2010.The apex court has to decide on the application of the UOI which is listed for 11 July 11.

Tushar Parekh said...

I have a question -- i was wondering, who is the banker to the armed forces (army, navy, air force)? as a servicemen, how am i paid, via cheque or via direct deposit into my bank account?

Harry said...

@ Col Satwant


1. Thanks for ur 'enlightening' but depressing and hard-to-stomach info. (I'm sure thousands will be benefitted by your narration.)

2. Would strongly urge you to do a comprehensive guest blogpost on the subject and put things in correct perspective. I'm sanguine Maj Navdeep would be only too happy to permit the same.

3. Thereafter we all can debate about the road ahead and put forth our views to set the past wrongs RIGHT!

4. Pl do this favour to AF fraternity.

Thanks and warm regards,
Harry aka Original Harry

Kaps said...

Eureka moment for me! Thanks to all for putting things out so that a lay person like me could understand what all the brouhaha was about. Now, all agree that damage has been done one way or the other. Remedies to overcome the damage too are available. Personally, I concur with what is suggested by BeeCee. Let the people responsible for the fiasco own up and approach the Govt saying they made a mistake.

Problem is: Who will bell the cat? Will the responsible people ever agree that the system they have so carefully nurtured, has made a mistake. A system where zero error syndrome is order of the day, will never accept that an error has been made. I doubt that even the retired brethren will be ever point it out to the powers that be regarding what and how of the problem. Blinkers are too strong.

I feel rather than returning medals, retired brethren must educate the ones in service regarding what awaits them in the way of apathy and how important it is to be awake to the problem. I can safely say that not more than 3-5% level amongst serving officers will be aware regarding how they have been denied.

Anonymous said...

Its saddening to note that most of the relavant posts dont get commented at all like bringing the navay act in line with the provisions of the AF and Army acts which affects jawans more than officers. The issues pertaining to disability also dont find favor with those commenting on status equivalence n pay issues. Its a classic case of misplaced priorities. Its high time that we realise the enemy is within and cleanse our system from the Feudal trappings of the bygone era. In fact if Kings were ruling this country it would have been better from the governance point of view. Atleast he would be the only person under the LOKPAL review!!!(pun intended)


@ Harry. Your point taken but after the judgment on 11 July 11 as all the issues which have been told by me would come up when the CDA starts refixation of pay and allce from 1986 onwards with 6% interest. V & VI CPC are consequential benefits which have to be factored in.
@All. What needs to be done has already been done.RDOA has adequately projected the case of OROP and Maj pension to the Rajya Sabha petition committee.Also AFT has given verdict in Maj pension case.Govt action awaited. Rank pay anomaly case is in the Supreme court. Disability case is also in AFT and judgment given.
No amount of discouragement is going to dissuade us. The courts are there.Seperate pay commission for the armed forces will defenitely take shape.The issues and anomalies are many. You can write thesis.eg A civ bureaucrat posted in HQ gets HQ allce of Rs4000/- whereas you do not get it.If he stays beyond office hrs he gets overtime whereas you are 24X7X365.The list is endless.How the pay scales have been heavily shewed in favor of civ will be coming up next.

corona8 said...

@SATTY's CORNER:"...There are many who still don't know what went wrong at the IV CPC..."; Nothing substantive has ever been revealed. All that is known is there was a wrong deduction of the amount equivalent to the rank pay from the basic. Who was responsible for the lapse? Who was supposed to raise objections on behalf of the armed forces headquarters? What and where is the record of those objections? Now, those details should help to bring out a few more aspects of "what went wrong at the IV CPC".

sl said...

@BeeCee: You wrote,"Your underlying principles should get you Mil pensions, not OROP".

Well, that was the logic behind my blog post(s).
We need not take "OROP" to mean just what the abbreviation stands for.
Firstly, there's a need to equate pensions within the service not only on the basis of rank attained but on the basis of rank that would have been attained as per the length of service and as per current promotion policy with the assumption that the retiree had superannuated not in the distant past but currently.

Secondly, there's a need to equate the pensions with equivalent civilian counterparts and ensuring adequate relative enhancement of pensions for the armed forces retirees in view of their truncated careers.

That is why I did feel the text in the main blog post needed a review where it was stated,"Pension rules providing past pensioners 50% of the minimum of the relevant ‘replacement pay’ in the new pay band actually provide something very close to OROP for all".
But there's a lot in the subsequent sections that absolutely hits the nail on the head.

Harry said...

@ Col Satwant


1. Thanks for acceding to my request.

2. I would wait eagerly for 11 Jul (not so much for the SC judgement on Rk Pay treachery, which may not come thru' on 11 Jul as well, seeing the past practice of postponements and delay) but for your essay as to how we have been SHAFTED repeatedly, pay commission after pay commission, and therefater debating the way forward.

Thanks and warm regards,
Harry aka Original Harry


@ Harry. It is not an 'essay'but a well researched paper with facts and figures plus documentary evidence which can be produced in any court of law. It reflects how the armed forces of the nation have been weakened by degrading them in pay and allce striking at their moarale. I would call it a treachery of the highest order for an act done fully knowing the end results.eg how can the pay scale of a Sub Maj have 14 increments.No Sub Maj serves for more than 4 yrs in the rank.He will never be able to reach top of scale, leave that he won't go even half way.Result low pay and pension.

Anonymous said...

It is now proved beyond doubt that degradation in status as well as pay structure of Armed forces officers will partcularly hurt officers who retired before 5th & 6th CPC if OROP as demanded by these very officers is implemented.

The damage may already have been done.However for future our seniors putting up case before the govt need to do their home work properly.Fail to understand why they cannot see all the facts brought up in various fora and have courage and strength to ask for what is rightfully due.

Col P B Singh(Retd)