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Saturday, April 6, 2013

Would a separate Pay Commission for the Armed Forces be beneficial, after all?


There are indications that the process for constitution of the 7th Central Pay Commission may be initiated soon with the background idea that the recommendations are accepted well before 01-01-2016 so as to give effect to the same on the said date.

The PMO, after the 6th CPC fiasco vis-à-vis the defence services, had opined that there would now be separate pay commission for the defence services. Many of us have already started professing for a separate pay commission and the voice is getting stronger by the day.

But in the ultimate analysis, we should first ponder over this concept threadbare and reach a considered conclusion whether a separate pay commission would be beneficial or not, and in what form.

The greatest fear with a separate panel is that it may result in detached recommendations wherein pay-scales and pension formulae totally different than other central govt employees may be recommended which may ultimately hamper our cause. Also, as pay commissions are only recommendatory in nature, any proactive or progressive recommendations may not ultimately be accepted by the govt. There could be an element of delay as well.

So what is the solution.

The first and the best solution would be that rather than having a separate pay commission, we insist on proper military representation on the regular pay commission with formal members representing the defence services and veterans. This way, while not being totally disconnected from the civil services, the defence services would be able to have a say as far as uniqueness of military service is concerned.

The second solution would be to have a separate pay commission for the defence services which may be constituted only after the main pay commission has submitted its recommendations but with a time bound mandate to offset any kind of delay of release of benefits to defence personnel. It, for example, could be notified that the separate pay commission would submit recommendations within 3 months of the central pay commission and acceptance could be mandated within total of 6 months from the recommendations of the central pay commission, loosely on the lines of pay panels constituted for academicians with support of the UGC. Of course this would not be possible without proper appreciation and notification by the govt.

I’m not presenting any solutions but in my humble opinion, veteran organisations should hence hold their horses till the time a considered call is taken on the issue by all stake-holders, which must include veteran bodies, the Services HQ through the COSC and the Govt, by properly weighing the pros and cons. It would also be much appreciated if adequately sensitised (and sensitive) officers having expertise in the area are posted on key appointments dealing with the subject rather than based on service profile, ACRs, courses attended or posting profile.

I’m sure the current apex establishment understands the importance of expertise and internals rather than ceremonials or externals as far as posting of officers is concerned, and since the hopes this time are very high, attempts must be made to deliver in a deliberated and considered manner.


56 comments:

Kaps said...

One thing is certain. The separate PC will not be able to factor in a huge lot of things that affect future emoluments over a ten year period. Best solution would be to tie pays to the AIS and work separately on perks and allowances.
Whatever the grievances, this can't be denied that the recommendations by babus take into account present as well as post retirement calculations.

exweltruyst said...

Dear Sir,
Your opinion is very correct Sir.
If there is any anomaly, we can not agitate like Civilian pensioners organisation. It may be disadvantage. We must insist for Defence representation in the committee.
Let us hope for the best.
Sgt.S.Kanthiah.

bala said...

With my age and experience of decades of service life ,I tend to agree with NAVDEEP. Our mind set /set mind would be a problem to accept and merge with main stream.
Let there be debate and some emergence of views and alternatives.

Other problem with services mind set is- we tend to be arbitrary and unilateral , as if we are drafting operational orders in military ops.

From the past ,it is evident ,that our AG Br (personnel branch ) and other top brass were ignorant of how the pay structure is evolved.

Anonymous said...

well, to have a separate pay commission for defence forces or not will be a really difficult decision for the defence forces?

Before that, all the anomalies of VI CPC needs to be sorted out to have any worthwhile discussion on VIIth pay commission.

Having a member on the VII CPC paypanel common to civilians and defence forces will not solve the problem. It may rather be counterproductive as thereafter defence forces may be told that you had your representative. And how AF (of Maj GEn or LT Gen rank) representative will see things differently than what AHQ has done so far, is anyone's guess.

So the solution lies in ensuring that AFs are brought to status as thought of in IV CPC, that is to have an edge with their civilian counterparts.

Also may someone enlighten as to why there is nothing moving on NFFU> Some people are of the view that let the rank pay case get decided in totallity. Well, rank pay case should not be connected to NFFU. NFFU is for financial upgradation for career stagnation due to limited vacancies and promotional avenues. irrespective of what initial basic and grade pay is given after correct implementation of rank pay case, the fact of stagnation and supersession will still remain. moreover, NFFU as and when implemented for AFs will be from prospective effect so each day counts. I hope that the people who think they know best, are doing something about it.

Yogi said...

I think fear of having a separate CPC for Armed Forces stems from the fact that performance of previous Pay Cells of the Services has been suboptimal. But that ought not be a deterrent, after all if think we are such babes-in-the-woods than the country should immediately appoint All India Service officers to command formations. Fact is that the civilians have in many a cases taken cue from Armed Forces and then built on it. Example being Grade Pay, which is renamed Rank Pay, integrated pay scales, canteen services, self-financing group housing societies and so on. Separate Pay Commissions for the Services are working well in UK and USA. Moreover now-a-days we can take help of expertise available in civvie-street. I think we should have a separate PC, which should be consisting of three Apex Body of Army Commander level officers (one each from three services) with an advisory group each for Other Rank (made up of NCOs), JCO(consisting of JCOs) and Junior Officers (major and captains), whose recommendations must be put to an independent consultant, who will then make comprehensive proposal to Apex Body. All recommendations and proposals ought to be placed in public domain and those rejected should be explained with a speaking explanation.

sunlit said...

Representation of the defence services would be an apt solution provided the representation was truly representative.

There has to be a mechanism of genuine and recorded feedback from serving personnel and veterans, through well defined channels and processes, so that the services headquarters can constructively engage in the process of pay revision.

This feedback would empower the armed forces representatives with inputs and combined with expert advice, the reps could ensure anomalies are kept to a minimum.

Whether in a separate pay commission or with services representation in a common pay-commission, there is an urgent need for introducing an effective review mechanism for expeditious rationalisation of anomalies that might arise following the implementation of pay commission recommendations.

Anonymous said...

I am given to understand that the College of Defence Management, Hyderabad, was tasked by the COSC / IA HQ, to focus on the 7th pay commission and bring out a Blue / White Paper on the subject. ANY NEWS ON THAT from IESM?

kd singh said...

I am in total agreement with you sir.i have my very serious doubt about the outcome of armed forces pay commission. There will be a big divide in pay and allowance of selection grade and time scale ranks because we are stuck up in rank structure. Those who are lucky to climb the ladder conveniently tend to forget the people who are holding the ladder. They see stars in the sky by only looking up. Hence I am of the view that we as an org will be wholsumly happy with central pay commission.

Anonymous said...

can have separate pay commission for armed forces in line with UGC pay commission for University and college staff.

At least this time we must demand for Gazette officer status for JCOs and equalants.

should demand for abolishing liking pension to 33years and, minimum 10 month seniority requirement .

Jose Mathew

Manish said...

Dear Sir,

1. Hope armed forces present a strong case in support of this idea.
2.The babus will try their best to deprive the forces from the legitimate benefits.

Manish Shuk

Library for Retired Defence Personnel said...

In my opinion, it is not advisable for a separate pay commission for the defence services.

I agree with Maj. Navdeep Singh's first and the BEST solution of insisting our Government to include proper Armed Forces representation on the regular pay commission with FORMAL members representing the defence services and veterans.

Let us forget the about babus in the Ministries of our Government. In fact the whole civilian population of our country, give more respect to the defence personnel whether in service or retired, hence let us not totally disconnect from the civil services by forming a separate pay commission for defence services.

Ex-JWO Edward Michael

Sathye said...

Earlier PCs were engineered more of backdoor cadre revisions than revision of emoluments commensurate with changed consumer price index, inflation etc. That was how the military services found themselves demoted a couple of grades down relative to the rest particularly with respect to civil services, while receiving the revised pay post acceptance of the 6thCPC. Hence it would be appropriate to seek a thorough revision of all apex central cadres to set relativities for overall effectiveness of governance and efficiency. Once the apex cadre equivalencies of all disciplines such as civil administration, military, police & specialised cadres (Science, Engineering, Education, Law, Economics etc) are formulated, the subordinate cadres can be aligned. Periodic pay revision exercises may be undertaken thereafter. Else this also would end up as another exercise in deception and connivance by the vested interests notwithstanding the compulsions of general elections appearing in the horizon!

Amal said...

Dear Navdeep,

You are very clear on separate pay commission for defence.I fully support your opinion.But I am in the opinion that your second alternative is the best than first one.Pay commission for defence should be held only after pay commission for civilians have submitted their report.I am sure each one of us can understand the reasons.

Anonymous said...

Is pay commission cell LISTENING????

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous @ 12:28 PM 06 Apr. Anonymous, A separate Pay Commission for the Defence Forces is not at all a difficult decision. It should never be there. PERIOD. Major Navdeep's suggestion is correct that we should have a Pay Commission with adequate representation from Services OR Our Pay Commission should be declared 3-6 months after the Pay Commission. I might however suggest that we should have adequate representation in the Pay Commission which decides only on equivalence (Prevailing at IV CPC). Thereafter we should have an Quasi Judicial Anomalies Commission / Body only which sorts out amolies(in the next 6 months / Year / Permanent) , whose decision be binding on the Govt. Rules of the Game of the rule should be kept simple- 1. You cannot steal from pensioners to pay people in service. 2. No arbitarary cut off dates. 3. A person of similar rank and service is to get same pension and pay as a person will get. No bunching. 4. Have an increment every six months instead of confusing everybody by having it once a year. 5. Ratio of Maximum Pay to Minimum Pay to be reduced to 1:12 or even 1:10 as in Scandinavian countries. 6. Pay Commission of Civilians will be approved by Defence Forces (Save the Best for the Last).

Synapse said...

Every day we see how the our top is always wanting more and more unauthorised perks. They want to be treated like British Lords - dedicated roads reserved for His Highness, dedicated gates, dedicated office corridors, different looking chairs, dedicated LOOs!! Talk BIG but think small...
With dedicated Pay Commission at their disposal, concepts like NFFU will be buried deep, DACP even if through will be scrapped... the governing principle will be - Take BIG give small.
May GOD help us!!

WG.CDR.V.SUNDARESAN(RETD) said...

I also think there ius no need to have a seperate PC for defence forces. Afull team of specialist personnel in ADMIN, FIN, PENSION may be included in the PC as the def.rep.
If required, the AFs can have a seperate cell, consisting of IAF,AND NAVY also to be include, both in the main PC and in the internal cell. Arep from retired veterans(both officers and other ranks) also can be included.
ASEPERATE PC MAY DO MORE HARM.
V.Sundaresan

Anonymous said...

Dear Major Navdeep,
Earlier we were of the opinion that a major part of forces wanted a separate Pay Commission. Not any more. Almost 40% of my course is convinced a separate Pay Commission will be disastrous and the rest 60% are on the way up and hence don't care. Particularly after being taken for a ride on the Rank Pay issue even after having a Supreme Court verdict in our favour.
Regards,
Wg Cdr RJ

b singh said...

I have mentioned many times there is no representation of 95% strength of JCO’s/OR’s in the defence forces. Officers are highly committed with their problems then how it can be expected the JCO’s/OR’s problems can be addressed correctly? Separate pay commission is not good for JCO's/OR's. JCO's/OR's do not trust in separate commission for defence forces.

b singh said...

In the defence forces officer ,JCO’s/Ors working together from out side seems to be ok but real fact is that in our defence forces discrimination is too much like Brahmin and dalits. JCO’s/OR’s do not trust officers and do not want separate pay commission. For the JCO’s/OR’s central pay commission is better If there is any anomaly, then Civilian organisation will protest . We must insist for JCO’/OR’s representation in the pay committee.
Let us hope for the best

leeabrahams2christeffys said...

Going for a seperate pay commission for Armed Forces will be counter productive. It will only reduce the benifits rather than enhance it incomparison with the civilians.What we should focus on is proper representation from the AFs as well as from veterans from officers and PBORs.
Ex Hon.Lt(Navy)KS Abraham.

A DOCTOR FROM AMC said...

Fully agree with Maj Navdeep on NOT having a separate pay commission.It has been proved that our people are not very effective in putting the points across.We should ensure parity with civilian counterparts who are quite smart to get things in their favour
Also I am apprehensive that since our own people have put spanner in the implementation of DACP for doctors,in the next PC our NPA may be curtailed by service bosses if separate Pay commission is instituted

amc doctor said...

Fully agree with Maj Navdeep on NOT having a separate pay commission.It has been proved that our people are not very effective in putting the points across.We should ensure parity with civilian counterparts who are quite smart to get things in their favour.Also I am apprehensive that since our own people have put spanner in the implementation of DACP for doctors,in the next PC our NPA may be curtailed by service bosses if separate Pay commission is instituted

Anonymous said...

@ Synapse said...

Every day we see how the our top is always wanting more and more unauthorised perks. They want to be treated like British Lords - dedicated roads reserved for His Highness, dedicated gates, dedicated office corridors, different looking chairs, dedicated LOOs!! Talk BIG but think small...
With dedicated Pay Commission at their disposal, concepts like NFFU will be buried deep, DACP even if through will be scrapped... the governing principle will be - Take BIG give small.
May GOD help us!!
++++++++++++++++++


You have exactly summed it up..

we and our leaders cant think beyond seperate loos n gates..!

A B Mehta said...

We have always fought for the rights of other ranks as that is the legacy that civilian officers can not match. Most of the good decisions about them have been implemented. The officers have to be directly or indirectly linked to the IAS/IPS/other central services and para military officers. Hence the better choice is to have defence representation in the CPC itself.
Gp Capt A B Mehta(Retd)

Ashok Singh said...

Seperate Pay commission is first step by Govt to accept distinct identity of military as given in the constitution. As far as fixing the pay staurcture is concerned, there are robust models existing which works on the following principle (IN USA)

1. The base salary of military shall be worked out based on total benefits in the life span of the soldier compare to a civilian. In USA this is normally kept at par. But the adujustments are made to give him additional compensation as he retire early. This is where the life span concept is accepted and not the salary at one given point.Total take home of a soldier in his life span shall be equal to total take home pay of his equivalant civil counterpart.

2. Military is given additional tax free military pay and incenstives. This is add on..

3. Military is given additional resettlement benefits.

with above model in place - military salary in USA are normally 20-30% higher than their civil counterparts. Military pay and resetllement benefits are extra..

Now the problem is within military.. as four tier govt service is unique too India. The complexity comes here. Not because of civilians but because of military mind set.. Actually -- JCOs are equivalant to Class II officers.. But at first place we refuse to accept it.. Then why shall govt accept it..

so let the parility of JCO be there with class II officers.. the biggest harm has been done by making Lt Col as company cdrs.. no where in the world u have such arranegment. Companies are normally commanded by Captains.. correct it.. elivate your officers...



b singh said...

Maj Navdeep is a wise person and outstanding advocate and a very good social worker to the defence forces to provide all info on time .
dear sir I am agree with Maj Navdeep on NOT having a separate pay commission. our people try to keep less than counter part in civil and no one will dare to oppose them and no protest on the name discipline.

rajat said...

The aim should be to resolve the situation in the present system and get it streamlined than create a new bigger problem and alienation. When finally the Govt. is the one which has to decide it is better to be with the central govt employees, at least the govt has the fear of them. neither the politians nor the babus fear the fauj, so we will end up getting nothing and are spineless senior officers will agree to there demands.

Anonymous said...

@ Ashok Singh. The service Headquaters has demanded Class II Group B Gazzetted status for JCOs to 5th Pay commission. Commission rejected it saying, the commission is recommending to remove the Gazzetted Officer status for all the services including civil services. they have recommended for Executives, and senior executive designation. unfortunatly the Government did not accepted this recommendation. But the JCOs could got Gazzetted status.

Let us try for this in 7th Pay commission.
Jose Mathew

Anonymous said...

most us seem to believe that having a separate pay commission means that the armed forces would decide their pay themselves. you are totally mistaken the babus would still have the last word and we wont have anyone to blame. what is needed is some sort of equivalence with the civilian ranks based roughly on rank as well as no of years of service. in addition we need to seek some extra compensation /rehabilitation for peculiar service conditions and shorter service life especially for the jawans. one would think that the armed forces with the very limited promotion opportunities deserved NFFU / DACP more than civilian officers. i do wonder what the attitude of our select ranks is on the issue. we tend to call time scale cols as COL(TS) every time reminding them that they are considered useless by the org. with this attitude i think a separate commission would lead us to nowhere. we are proud citizens of this country and not a mercenary army that we need to fight for our pay. i repeat an equivalence with our civilian brothers (NFFU and other perks included) with a slight edge (like MSP) is what is needed. NO SEPARATE PAY COMMISSION PLEASE (old doc)

Penmil said...

The impression that one gets is that the Services HQs will be unable to visualize, forecast, and articulate the pay and promotional needs of the men in uniform and pensions of those out of uniform.
Hence the doubt, if we are ready for a separate pay commission for the services.
But no where it is said that the separate pay commission for services will be constituted by drawing members entirely from the services.
All that one understands is that a separate commission would take into account the special needs of the serving and retired personnel of the services.
The past performance of the Service HQ in solving the pay and pension anomalies is not bad if not exemplary. A review of the achievements, post acceptance of the VI CPC, would show that the Services HQ had dealt with the anomalies and issues well, notably in the areas of pensions and also in the case of pay scales. All aspirations of the serving and the retired might not have been fulfilled.
But it has to be remembered that the Services HQs are, at the present, only in an appealing mode and not even in a negotiating mode. We still do not know what exactly is the negotiating power of the Services HQ.
A number of examples and illustrations could be cited to support the belief that the Services HQ had matured enough to understand and deal with the issues and pay and promotional needs of the serving, and the pension and health care needs of the retired.
But still a bench mark is needed to evaluate if the personnel of services have not been short changed or lost out in the pay, pension, perks and service conditions, compared to other government servants.
In that case, as Major Navdeep had suggested, the services pay commission could wait till the parallel civil pay commission had made its recommendations and then emulate the best practices that have emerged by then.
There is a vast sore of expertise available, now, both in the Serving and the Retired and in the ESM organizations and individuals championing the causes of the serving and the retired.
These can always be sourced and accessed by the services pay commission. In addition professionals in the design of the compensation packages could be consulted to understand what special /additional features are to be instituted to adequately safe guard the interests of the service personnel , while in service and after retirement.
Then without the fear of appearing to be ‘ we are different’ the services could claim due parity with the civilian government services and also justifies the additional that they demand to compensate for the conditions of military service.
Then why let go off this opportunity?

Library for Retired Defence Personnel said...

The comments so far indicates that most of our A F Personnel are not interested in a separate CPC for Armed Forces, but interested in Armed Forces proper representation for Officers, JCOs and other ranks in the 7th C P C.
In the forth coming Pay Commission, we must insist for the Class II Gazetted Officer Status for the JCO and other equivalent ranks.
In Army, on promotion to JCO, receives a Parchment from the President where as the Air Force Warrant Officer ranks and Naval Chief Petty Officer ranks receive a President Warrant on promotion to the rank of Junior Warrant Officer and Chief Petty Officer respectively.
In Pakistan all the CPO/MCPO II/ MCPO I and JWO/WO/MWO ranks are classified as Junior Commissioned ranks and also as Gazetted Officer Class II.

Then what is the problem in our Armed Forces to give the Class II Gazetted Officer Satatus to all the JWO/WO/MWO and CPO/MCPOII/MCPOI in Air Force and Navy respectively. In fact these rank holders in Indian Armed Forces are superior in all the respect when compared to P A F. We must take some initiative in the 7th CPC to include above mentioned ranks in the Class II Gazetted Officer Status and revise the Grade Pay.

Ex-JWO Edward Michael

Yogi said...

Interesting to note that (a) most of the commentators seem to be from services like AMC, (b) they exhibit complete lack of faith in military hierarchy and (c) each talks of issues specific to his group/ class. Reading their comments one feels that end of Army as a cohesive force is very near. So my question! Why not merge each of these services/ group with nearest civil equivalent, for example AMC with Government Health Services, Signals with BSNL/ P&T, ASC with Civil Supplies/ DGS& D, EME and Engineers with CPWD. As for Infantry, Armoured Corps and Artillery, I sincerely hope that JCO & OR of these arms still retain faith in their officers and they can be represented by the Pay Commission of Armed Forces.

Anonymous said...

Separate pay commission for Armed forces will be disastrous.So many things come to us automatically because the civilians can force these and make the Govt agree.They can protest,strike etc and make govt agree.
Our top brass has weak spine and will bend easily. Armed forces personal can not protest and have to accept whatever is given.

Moreover our past history also shows that our pay cells do not have the required vision.Our Generals are clamoring for austerity for juniors to earn AVSMs etc but wanting only luxury for themselves.They have refused to implement DACP and failed to get NFFU for the fear of they then being unable to black mail people for ACRs.

Separate AF pay commission.No way.
Col P B Singh

Bharat Chevur said...

Dear Navdeep,
A separate pay commission would be disastrous. The armed forces should aim for parity with IAS and no other service. The logic is simple. The IAS and the 3 wings of the defence services are headed by Cabinet Secretary / Equivalents. Only then would justice be done.
Lt Col Bharat Chevur (Retd)

Anonymous said...

Dear maj navdeep i want to request if you could kindly Give the auth under which haryana gvt has given discount of 1% on stamp duty fo registeration of house for defence it will be great help i am sorry to ask this info from a busy man like you but you are our only hope it will save us Rs 25000 my email vishnuprataps@gmail.com

Anonymous said...

JCOs/ORs never have any say on anything. Even if few are detailed to represent the need of JCOs/ORs they will simply project what their boss have ordered. Whatever the lower rank personnel are getting is due to their civilian counterparts. If their payments are to be decided by their own bosses, what outcome we can expect as many bosses directly or indirectly says that there is no shortage in respect of ORs and there is huge queue for recruitment as if ORs are over paid.

Major AK Dhanapalan said...

Yes, I also feel that apprehension that a separate pay commission will only will do harm since we, the uniformed personnel are not tune to
intricacies of the personal matters, which can be achieved with good experience in the matter. We may claim otherwise, but see how the Pay commission cells in the Service HQs are functioning. We can see how tactfully the trade unions present their requirements before PC which they get full support right from Chief Secretary even the auditor General, they also some times push through certain things through the trade union who mostly belongs to lower cadre, but well versed.
It is NOT a separate PC, but what input you can provide which matters. Take the earlier PCs and see the recommendation made by the Service HQ.

WAS THE NFU/OROP in our recommendation?

Even lot many things are being got done after the PC with help of certain observations the PC make.

The only way I suggest is that there should be a Pt Parliament committee to look into the personnel matters of the Armed Forces on a day to day basis. Like
the one suggested by the Appx Court on 15/11/2010 to have an independent commission with 2 Rtd SC judges and 2 Rtd Senior Officers and one serving officer. The forum should be reachable by any one interested to contribute inputs.

Major AK Dhanapalan Retd

ramadasan nelliyodan said...

sailor said,
separate pay commission for military service will not be a good suggestion for jcos/ors.Because from the past experience officers are very much reserved to their comforts and benifits in comparison with IAS/IPS and in the bargain ORs will be a loser. MSP and GP 3400 are few example from SCPC.

Lt col Samuel Dhar said...

AF are a unique lot with service conditions quite different from civil services. There are a host of issues concerning service conditions of the AF personnel that have no parallel in civil service.

Fear of change and specially an unknown change is common but unhealthy. India will not be the first Country to have a separate PC. There are many brilliant minds amongst the serving personnel and veterans who could contribute in a meaningful way to formulating recommendations for a separate PC's consideration. A representative body of such minds could not only formulate the recommendations but also form part of the separate PC for detailed deliberations.

Let us not underestimate our own capabilities, (That we are only capable of doing tup-thrip); let us shed the fear of change and give the separate PC a try.

Anonymous said...

I agree to the opinions...my point of view is that...i feel there should not be a separate pay commission...and rather try and elevate the stature and protocol issues...be rest assured...the babus will do all the good job for you...for an instance...in VI pay commission...the brigadier's rank pay was restricted just below 9000...whereas the equivalents in civil orgs got it to 9000...the pay band was same... but the difference in perks were huge...same way many other examples can be given...so my point is that...we should fight for elevating our place in the overall hierarchy...and not see it completely differently...one more thing i would request that we should get ourselves out of a self boasting state and be part of a larger view...also like IPS and CAPF forces, we can work on more senior ranks in the org, facilitating more assured promotions.

Anonymous said...

on the contrary let us a have separate PC for armed forces and have representation of some experienced civilians in it .

Sapper Paul said...

The babus would always have ready access to any pay commission joint or separate and when it comes to comparing they will always extract more benefit. During my service in the AHQ one undersecy had informed me that the Ms Indira Gandhi the then PM and her advisers had prepared a very good packet for us in the 4th PC. But our AHQ staff very proudly, having worked hard on their reccomewndations, put it up to the PM. The recommendations had asked for much less so the PM quickly granted whatever we the Faujis asked. So a very knowledgeable and experienced representation in the joint CPC is better.

baldev pandher said...

From the comments above, I can sense a clear distrust by the JCos/OR in their superior officers. The same is true of junior officers (upto the rank of Col.) Forget the pay commission, what does this convey?

Anonymous said...

Maj Navdeep,
the question is not whether a separate Pay Comm for the AF is good or not ; it should be 'are the Forces capable / competent enough to get a good deal in their own Pay Comm?
And the answer to that is NO !
All other Central Govt officers have 100 % promotions, ACP, NFU, easy postings, HRA on demand in own station postings for paying housing EMI, no tension at work, barely any targets and hardly any results, and to beat it all- a career upto 60 yrs with pension of a Addl Secy!
I cant even begin to wonder why someone dint put Govt Service into my mind instead of Defence Services. The uniform has no 'shaan' and has become a straight jacket.

Therefore under no circumstances can the AF be depended upon to get a good deal from ANY Pay commission whether DEF or Civilian

rajat said...

If we are able to sort out the differences with the babus we will get the due the the AF's deserve. By creating a separate DFPC we will only create a greater gap and the babus will make things even more miserable. I like the confidence of the men in uniform to think that if they have a separate DFCP they will have the last word, I think the babus and the politians will have a last laugh at the AF's. It is a financial trap which needs to be avoided. Being a part of CPC atleast you are getting some dues, the only problem is in term of equating the rank structure of the AF's. What is required is liberal thought of the men in uniform than trying to be overbearing with unreasonable demands only for high ranking officers. The insistence on continuation of Lt Col rank is one example whose grade pay cannot be related to any other in the civil hierarchy. Such problems are created by services themselves which relate to seniority. If the points of CPC are more favored financially towards the men and officers who are superseded it will ensure a better deal to the AF's personnel and get us parity with the civil counterpart.

Lt Col S K Adya(Retd) said...

I feel to gain advantage of both aspects intelligently covered by Maj. Navdeep Singh, we should plan our three services and defence support elements inclusive, group of members who should be projected to form a sub panel of the main panel of the commission. They would be listening to not only the finalized policies and recommendations but also the path leading to these decisions.

In the meantime we should finalize to enumerate the points that we have been finding deficient in the previous commission reports heading/subheading-wise And draw out our Armed Forces directive to the sub-panel suggested, with all angles discussed with them threadbare. Our sub-panel should be planned well in advance so that they are well prepared in advance. This is more important for reasons that they would have to impress with initiatives, arguments and well worded presentations to the main panel for their willing acceptance of our inputs.

We may also keep an outer circle panel with representations from all related Defence elements who should discuss with our sub-panel members during different phases of the proceedings of the commission to enable feed additional points and ideas for them to make use of in their formal projections/ proceedings.

Anonymous said...

Reading all the comments make to feel us disheartening and nothing else. In democracy civil rule take preference but that does not mean , we should neglect the Armed forces feelings of humiliation.

The basic complaint lie in protocol equivalent and promotion scales vis a viz length of service.

For example - IAS become commissioner in 16 years against more than 25 years commissioned service equivalent Major General in armed forces.

Simple solution lies in introducing Grade Pay to All India Service Officer and Armed Forces at same length of service. Rank Pay may be added separately to a vacancy based system to Armed Forces personnel as usual.

Thus the parity between IAS vis a viz military officer can be made by renaming CDS (Combined Defence Service Exam) as Indian Defence Service (IDS) and making it also a All india Service like IAS, IPS, IFS, and new IJS being operating in whole of India. Their Pay, position should be on equal length service in all respects. The government should stop short service commission and resort to Permanent commission only by introducing superannuation to all at 60years age by better deployment and coping shortage.

Regards.

Anonymous said...

sir, at present disability benefits are given to re emp emp officers if their services have been terminated as per SAI of 1958. Since the employability for the re-emp and regular officers is same the same set of instrs be applied both for re-emp officers and regular officers with all other conditions remaing same.

Nb Sub Mathew (Retd) said...

Sir, Most of the comments reveals the facts affecting loss of benefits to JCOs/OR from the seperate CPC since almost everyone knows that the high officials of Armed Forces will look into their own benefits in comparison to their counterparts IAS/IPS/Cabinet Secys. For instance in the 6th CPC, the report concluded with grant of MSP @Rs 2000/- only to JCOs/OR who are directly involved in hostile operations whether it is in Icing High Altitude Area or in LoC or in Insurgency area, whereas officers who are sitting in comfort of ACs/Heater and support of Sahayaks around them, getting more MSP. Moreover, Nursing Officers who are never involved in any hostile operation and employed within secured hospitals getting more MSP for holding officer status. What it means, even a JCO who fight from the front and leads the troops and performing as junior commanders, have no status. PBOR have only a faith in civilian counterparts if the single CPC is conducted and the legitimate rights may be received by the efforts from them. Furthermore, clerical staff of Army contribute immensely to uphold morale of troops by their hard work,knowledge and efficiency. However, in earlier CPC officers kept them as just as typist and accordingly treated by the Commission. Earlier they stood second pay gp (Gp B)out of five gps but now still in same status. Who will look into....

Hope for the best from the almighty only.

Dayashankar Srivastava said...

Sir, there are plenty reasonable comments worth putting before the 7th CPC. The defence PC may prove disasterous. I.A.S.cadre cannot be compared. Their selection even supercedes I.I.T. selection. I.A.S. and Defence Commission Officer roles are different. RISK/COMFORT matters with the term of retirement. There should be no question of re-employment after retirement.Regards.
Daya Shanker Lal Srivastava Ex MCPO II, Mumbai(09869657053).

Velayudhan said...

Dear Maj Navdeep,

Very rightly analysed.
What we should ask first is to sort out the anomalies of the VI CPC.
Rank based grade pay,NFFU should be implemented without loss of any time.The refixation pay after the HSC verdictof rank pay must be sorted out including the other maj 39 anomalies already pointed out. I think once its sorted out all other things will be in place.
As far as separate MPC, we must join the main stream with proper and adequate representaion from AF who has an in depth knowledge about the pay structure /pension of various AF of some of the important countries and of course the aspirations of the youngsters who have to make a strong will power to join the toughest life in the AF compared to his civilian counterparts.

Thanks
With regards
Velayudhan

Dayashankar Srivastava said...

Sir,it must be realised that 10+2 recruits would not be responding well for physical duties.Must be used for mental duties. Armed Forces scale must never be based on education but on Responsibility and risk of life /safety involved.
DayaShanker Lal Srivastava Ex MCPO II,Mumbai(o7738115388).12

Pralaya Roy said...

REQUEST JOB EVALUATION OF INDIAN AIR FORCE STAFF (AIRMEN) AND FIX PAY SCALE ACCORDINGLY

Dear sir, I have the following few words for your kind consideration. When a young man joins in Indian Air Force then he has to study many things along with his physical and armed training. He has to study Hindi, English, General Science, Air Force rules and regulations in basic training (during first 6 months) and many many technical lessons in trade training and all these he has to learn through English medium. All instructions are given in English and to understand these is not bachcho ka khel. He has to pass exams step by step and then only he becomes a permanent staff. During doing service he has to pass different promotion exam to last in the service (service mei tike rahane ke liye) and this promotion exam is not so easy (bachcho ka khel nehi). In nutshell, when a man joins Air Force he enters in a english medium school where he has to study everything in english and has to pass all exams to be permanent staff. In other services, candidates need not study and pass hard exams to be permanent member. Such a trained man gets payment in the pay scale of 5200 rupees only. Whereas, in civil a trained man means a man who knows typing only and he need not study anything to be permanent staff of that organization. Such a man gets 5200 or more scale. Is it not a whimsicality ? I request pay commission to evaluate job of air force and fix starting pay scale little bit higher than present scale. I suggest to make scale at least 7200—25400 (as per present scale) for air force staff (from rank AC to MWO). Please refer comment of Air Chief Marshal Latif about “What should be payment of airmen of Indian Air Force”.
“Duniya se samyabaad ubharti ja rahi hai”…..this slogan is liked by most of the people in India. It indicates that most of the defence personnel also like this slogan. It indicates that they do not want equality and if so then everyone should get their right as per their qualifications and quality. Payment of airmen should not be equal to army personnel as army personnel do not want equality in soceity. In all civil services, whose pay scale falls between 5200-20200 for them, no study and no passing of exams are required to make their job permanent. They get the job and start working. But for airmen of Indian Air Force, they have to study a lot and pass all exams and then they become permanent member (yeh bachcho ka khel nehi). You can go to training center and can see what are the things they have to study along with their physical and armed training. In other service, people get smile on joining the service and executes love and conjugal life but on joining air force, a man becomes sorrow by seeing the study material and syllabus that he has to study and pass to become permanent member. Therefore, I request to change pay scale from 5200-20200 and upgrade scale at least 7200-25400 for airmen of Indian air force. It is harder to become an airman than becoming a teacher, a state govt. officer and many more like these. After becoming permanent staff also airmen do not get increment till they pass first promotion exam (I,e LAC/CPL Leading Aircraftsman). They get increment after clearing first promotion exam and one need to get 70% marks to pass the exam (yeh bachcho ka khel nehi). Therefore, I request to do job evaluation of airmen of Indian Air Force and fix scale accordingly.

Dayashankar Srivastava said...

Dear Roy, hope you will find my reply satisfactory, when published. Now a days Authorities are fully aware of Defence Personnel operations, living conditions and PBOR low Pay Scales. Junior Rank Pay Scale / less Pension(Family as well as Injured) is being realised and upgraded. We must have Faith in CPC justified outcome.Defence recommendations must be reasonable and impartial. We must get rid of Comlexion in Service Cadre. It is collective activity and responsibility. There exists Frustration due to difference of opinion and False Selfish Ego needing transformation with remedial Mental and Financial corrective methods for which 7CPC is formed. We need not bather. Request pray for the BEST. Regards,
Daya Shanker Lal Srivastava Ex MCPO II, Mumbai (07738115388), (dslsrivastava@gmail.com).



satish kumar said...

Sir, any how all CPC recommendation till now for non commissioned ranks were on God grace. CPC recommendation to be on work u involve and not on status. Till now if we see that all CPC recommendation are on Status only.