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Sunday, September 30, 2012

Detailed TV Panel discussion after the announcement of pensionary benefits on implementation of recommendations of the PM appointed committee


Earlier, a TV panel discussion was posted on the blog in the aftermath of the announcement of the Prime Minister constituted Committee of Secretaries looking into pay & pension anomalies of defence personnel.

The following is a panel discussion, recorded and telecast yesterday night, dissecting the benefits finally granted on the implementation of the recommendations of the PM constituted committee, and other issues.

The Panelists were Maj Gen Surjit Singh, former Chairperson of the 4th Pay Commission Cell, Prof JK Sharma, former member of National Security Advisory Board (NSAB), and Major Navdeep Singh. 

The discussion is in two parts:






24 comments:

Anonymous said...

sir, now i know why u are respected. u must be the only person related to army who fairly says that better pension should be granted to civilians also. i am a military pensioner and my father is a civil pensioner. both of us face the same problems but it does not sound good when military organzations say again and again that they are different than civil pensioners. as u rightly said jawans need to be granted enhanced pensions but officers of army and other civilian pensioners both requrire a better hike and should be placed at par. thank u from the bottom of my heart sir.

Anonymous said...

Sir, Pensions of Officers will increase upto 28% while that of others will increase upto 13%. I don't know, is it because the Ex-servicemen below officers rank are better paid than the retired officers or it is due to some other reasons?

Anonymous said...

Well to equalise civilians with army pensioners is totally illogical due to terms and types of service. Why disability act 1995 is not made applicable to service people and only to others. Thus equating with civilians is at the out set cutting own feet, for which service hierarchy is well known.

sunlit said...

Wonderful discussion. Greatly impressed with the "what is one rank one pension" question. It's an issue I have never fully understood myself.

Anonymous said...

The panelists have not to
uched upon-
1.last pay drawn as on 31.12.86.that was the crux of parit and relativity. .The court judgement ,after 27 yrs has to be applid from that date and the parity of basic pay /last pay drawn to be re calculated for 5cpc and 6cpc.
2.Why is every body silent on correction/equation of so called Ranks prior to revision to post revision.(i.e)rank 2nd lieut abolished ,lowest sel grade rk is Col.,earlier rks Lt,Capt,Maj,Lt Col after 2/6/ 11,13/24,25,21 are now after 0/2/6/13 /26 (Col).NFU aspect is to be further added.
without addressing these only disparity will widen.

Vasundhra said...

@ Anonymous:Comment 1/2.September 30, 2012 9:50 AM. Respectfully I tend to differ from you Sir,Agreed we as FAUJIS come from the same back ground as all other Indians do but the commonality ends there. The major difference is that We have given an ‘IOU’ to the PEOPLE of the Nation that as SOLDIERS even if need be over dead body Indian Soldier (read with the concept meaning of SIKH) will protect the HONOR of the the NATION. Honor in it self is a relative term, in Indian context ,being totally arrogant & brash, I will say that never in future ‘Indian FEMALE will ever be sold as a COMMODITY in the slave markets of Bukhara,Samarkand, Ghazni & Kandahar .Since the inception of Indian Army in its modern AVATAR without being communal , INDAIN ARMY IS A NEGATION FACTOR in the promulgation of the ‘VERSE OF A RELIGIOUS BOOK’ which demands that ‘To destroy every KAFIR’ is our responsibility and the Women Children & their assets are our loot & personal property.Sir Through out INDIAN ARMY has kept its word. Being a witness to 1947 ask those what Rape, Loot, Abduction & Conversion at Sword point means. If in any doubt ask an oldie in confidence in BARMULLA that what KABAILI did to them & their Women folk in 1947-48. Sir this is not a some thing in distant past, many of those ill-fated souls are still alive in Murree- Haripur- Muzzafrabad belt of Pakistan. INDIAN SOLDIER IS THE LAST BASTION. SIR WE ARE DIFFERENT “"HUM FAUJI HAIN CIVILIAN NAHI'” The argument stands that even in DEMOCRACY Armed Forces have to be treated at & from a Special Pedestal how ever unpalatable it may be to a “MATERIALISTIC” http://bhupalvasundhra.blogspot.in/2012/09/hum-fauji-hain-civilian-nahi.html

Anonymous said...

equating services and civilian pay parity only reveals bankrupcy of ground realities and basic fundamental's on which services function and adorn. Why civilians have not granted benefits of disability act 1995 to services.

manu69 said...

Dear Major Navdeep,
1. That was an excellent discussion and would make the general public incl our own community aware of key issues affecting the armed forces.
2. I find that the excuse given by the bureaucrats is that we cannot give anything extra to faujis –be it serving or retired – because it involves issues- LARGELY FINANCIAL. Where is the govt losing by rectifying its own mistakes heaped upon us? Let us take the core issues:
3. Rank Pay Case. Something which was due to us has been rectified after 26 years. Someone had rightly brought out that the govt has saved 600 odd Cr by denying us the interest from 1986 to 2006. It has also saved again at our cost by denying us the enhanced fitments by adding the rank pay in the 6th CPC. It has denied us the correct Grade Pay from 2006. And now, if and when the CoS submits its report, and if it is positive, the govt will again implement it PROSPECTIVELY and state the financial largesse being given to faujis which was due to us for the last 6 to 7 years.
4. OROP. How is the govt saying that we are giving more to faujis. If we calculate the savings made by releasing us before we attain 60 yrs see the amount saved from us. On an average a Lt Col/Col is giving the govt 75 to 80 lacs by not serving upto 60 yrs. If the places this amount in a kitty I think we can look after our ESM, Widows, Disabled veterans etc. The pension admissible earlier was 70% which has been now reduced to 50%. With the rank pay anomaly removed, the Basic Pay of serving personnel will be revised and the ESM will again be having a large difference in pension. What is the way out?
5. Status of Serving Personnel. How are we saying that we in the army have downgraded our ranks? I would put it in another way that the Civilians have upgraded themselves and created new posts which we have not been able to monitor and catch up. The Army due to its pyramidical structure has not created new ranks. Rank wise we are where we were since independence and the 1st pay commission. Each Pay Commission has said that there is no comparison between the Armed Forces and Civilian Pay Scales. The IPS drew their rank badges from us and started establishing a comparison in ranks. Since the IPS has created new pay scales in the higher echelons, why can,t we ask for our upgradation. IS IT BECAUSE WE ARE RANK OBSESSED?
6. Projection of our issues. We have adopted a multipronged thrust approach with the service HQ and ESM org projecting their issues independently. Multiple thrust lines will keep the enemy confused as to where the main thrust is coming. We appear to have confused the govt to no end. The govt calculates the amount involved and faints at the figures.
7. I feel there is enough material on your website on various issues by way of your contributions and comments by eminent personnel. Why can’t we have a study group which compiles all the aspects and then relaunch our attack afresh. Can we impress upon the govt to change the staffing pattern of the Dept of Ex Servicemen Welfare by having ESM and serving personnel with some civilians thrown in between. Due to our pyramidal structure 70-75 % offrs stagnate now at Lt Col Rank. Do we mean to say that these percentages of offrs are incompetent as compared to their civilian counterparts? If we are able to resolve the disgruntlement amongst us which are MAINLY PROMOTION PROSPECTS TO WHICH IS LINKED THE FINANCIAL BENEFITS AND TO WHICH IS LINKED THE PENSIONARY BENEFITS we will be able to resolve a majority of our problems.
8. NFFU. The govt may have no choice but to grant it to us. I only hope we don’t axe our own feet in implementing it.
9. With the Rank Pay issue having been resolved, now is the right time to re-org and synergise our approach to our pending issues. In the meantime, the govt appears to be dragging its feet on our core issues and whiling away its time.

Anonymous said...

Thanks

Tukaram V Manerajurikar said...

To Sunlit:- Sir, One Rank One Pension is very well understood by ESMs. But there is no provision of granting higher ranks pension to past retiree. Be it AVS report or otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Dear Major Navdeep Sir,

A Major remains in that rank for at lrast 7 years before being promoted to LT COLONEL in pb4 gp8000. My query is that if and when NFFU is granted for AF officers will a Major automatically become eligible for next higher GP 7600 (on civil side) as soon as an IAS officer junior to a Major by 2 years in service is empanelled as Dy Secy to GOI or the Major will be placed in pb4 gp 8000 in such a scenario????? im sure there would be very many stakeholders keen to know the answer. Sir, you may kindly clarify. Thanks a ton for all your tireless efforts that everyone concerned lauds from the bottom of the heart.

Anonymous said...

@Manu69 Sir, While elaborating the causes of serving/retired officers why you don't feel its necessary to give a glimpse to the issues of PBORs also...

PBOR said...

i have only one thing to say to Maj. Navdeep. GOD BLESS

sunlit said...

@Tukaram V Manerajurikar: "..very well understood.."; :-) Watch that entire video again, and maybe you'll appreciate the fact there are valid reasons for that concept not being understood by people who can really understand.

Otherwise, we'll approach you for clarifying our conceptual doubts.

corona8 said...

@TVM: "...there is no provision..." LOL! There is no provision for OROP either.

Anonymous said...

What is the impact on the pension of JCO's who retired before 1 jan 2006? It is not very clear in the official release of the OROP.

manu69 said...

Dear Anonymous,@ glimpse to the issues of PBORs also....
1. If you have gone through my comment you would realise that I have touched upon the core issues of our concern. It also includes PBOR and ESM and the method we may need to adopt to get out of this stalemate which seems to have taken place.
2. the govt is stuck b'coz if they give it to us, the civilians will also take out morchas.
3. why can't we ask for the compensation for early retirement and grant of X factor pay say at 50% of MSP.

manu69 said...

on NFFU i have a strong feeling that it will be granted but it will not be linked to the IAS promotion. it may be with reference to the promotions in our arms and services. iT MAY NOT BE GRANTED FOR pbor AS THEY HAVE ACP AT 8-16 AND 24 YRS. ANY TAKERS?

Anonymous said...

Actually, OROP is badly needed by the soldiers, who are thrown out of the service after completion of 15, 22 or 27 yrs of service, they do not get any job in civil and are compelled to take up below dignity job to fill their belly. These soldiers are from infantry/artillary, i do not think anyone of you represents them. Please lookafter them. SATISFIED SOLDIER

manu69 said...

sir, i have made an excel worksheet. how can i send it to you for comments?

BR said...

@manu69: IPS ranks/ civilian pay scales creeping up from their historical parity keeps coming up on this blog. So, it would be worthwhile to compare how the British pay their police officers vs their army officers now, as our system was inherited from their's. Please see the following links:

1) http://www.police-information.co.uk/policepay.htm#commissioners_2010

2) http://mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/2129C97E-0743-4D30-9893-6F2904ECF292/0/20101116_narrative_and_payscales.pdf - last page

You'll find that in the UK, the London Police Commissioner is paid more than the Chief of the Defence Staff (a 5 star role that is occupied by 4 star officers only since '97) and even the Deputy Commissioner of London Police makes more than all 4 star Generals/ Admirals and Air Chief Marshals! (Incidentally, the London Police Commissioner wears 4-star British Army insignia.)

If you scroll further up in the first link, you'd find that Chief Constables and Deputy Chief Constables, who are heads & 2-i-C of county (UK district) police forces make more than Lt Generals and Major Generals respectively (and these officers wear 3 and 2 star Army insignia now.) These county chiefs were equivalent to Colonels and Majors less than a century ago, but are now senior general officer equivalents!

This development is hardly surprising or unwelcome in the UK because it only reflects the modern democratic set-up where police officers and some civil servants (and elected leaders like Mayors) have significantly greater responsibilities and serve a larger, freer population than they used to and so historical parity doesn't apply anymore.

Similarly, in 1930's India, while the head of a 500-strong district police force would've ranked no higher than a Major, today, the same district would have no less than 3,000 policemen (and over 1 million more residents who have many more rights) and so its SP would be rightly considered equivalent to a Lt Col/Col anywhere in the world! Therefore, it's time people stopped talking about how police ranks are creeping up like it's abnormal, because in a developing democracy with a growing population, police forces rapidly expand and territorial command (i.e., Law & Order) ranks grow with the size of the force!

However, what is terrible given this background is that
1) Despite democratisation, India still follows the imperialistic practice of recruiting extremely senior police officer cadets using the IPS, while in most countries, graduate entry is at max at the Inspector level, and
2) IPS officers have assured career progression tied to promotions of IAS officers, so numerous frivolous senior roles are created for things like Motor Transport, Wireless, Prohibition, Home Guard, Jails, Traffic, etc to accommodate all these promotees.

These are the two real issues causing disparities and distortions.

So, unless the IPS entry-level rank is lowered to Inspector instead of ASP and there is a hard, army-like pyramidal cap on senior roles like DIGP, IGP and DGP with all frivolous posts removed, there is no parity possible with the armed forces. The sad reality is that our corrupt politicians need support for their looting from police officers and use these frivolous posts to send the honest ones that stand in their way away to where they can't do any harm. Sorry for the rant.

Anonymous said...

Manu69 sir, i m not here 4 debate with u. With the 3 acps a pbor can get 3 promotions with 24 yrs of service if he can clear promotion exam within 3 fixed attempts and if he is granted extn by service. So u have nothing 2 ask from anybody if u compare pbor's career. The truth is that pbor can't speak the way u r and their needs are totally depended at the marcy of politicians n few officers. Simply they have signed bond for 17/20 years and r bound 2 follow orders till they r discharged without asking 4 anything.

Anonymous said...

DSSA Board Ahmedabad is not issuing Identity cards to ex army postal service personnel. We maximum personnel have completed more than 15 years service in Army Postal service. They treating us defence civilian. Is it correct? To serve in Army is the matter of proud. Whereas after completion of more than 15 years service DSSA board Ahmedabad (Gujarat) is not issuing I dentity cards as issue to othwer ex servicemen. We all helpless. Some years they treated as barking Dog. We reported to AHQ and they advised them. Should we all file a case against Defence for Ex servicemen status ? Why the authority is blind and deaf ?. My Army No is 8371614-H Ex Warrant Officer J D Patel.

ramanan said...

Its to Mr.JD Patel. Dear WO, you first write to AP Dte Welfare Cell about your grievnce., they'll guide u and as far as granting Status of ESM to Ex-APS pl visit http://www.desw.gov.in/circulars or http://www.dgrindia.com/ wherein its clearly given who are all ESM. Now, things are settled and ExAPS are even members in ECHS