Feel free to contribute on burning issues concerning the armed forces. Contributions would be acknowledged - Use the 'Comments' tab or email navdeepsingh.india[at]gmail.com. No operational/business/commercial matters to be discussed please. Legal advice/litigation related issues would strictly NOT be published or discussed or entertained. Information on this blog is opinion based and is neither official nor in the form of an advice. This is a pro bono online journal in public service related to issues, policies and benefits, and the idea behind it is to educate and not to create controversy or to incite. Be soft in your language, respect Copyrights.

Monday, July 16, 2012

Committee on defence pay and pension anomalies, some additional issues


On the last blogpost concerning the committee constituted on the directions of the Prime Minister, some have shown utter discontentment and lack of any hope from the said working group. Some organisations have rejected the group even before the initiation of its functioning. While the distrust vis-à-vis some certain of bureaucracy is understandable to an extent, painting the entire set-up and also the serving military community as being ‘selfish’ and concerned about its own needs and requirements would not be in order.

And is this approach correct? Needless to say, the formation of the committee is a much welcome step and the credit for it goes to the Pay cells of the three services, mainly the Army Pay Cell, to have adequately highlighted at the right places the requirement of resolution of many pertinent anomalies. It may be pointed out here that earlier the formation of an ‘anomalies committee’ had been summarily rejected by the MoD but the Pay Cells and the current senior incumbents of the AG’s branch still managed to convince the Raksha Mantri of the requirement of redressal of these anomalies.

There is some deficit under the present circumstances and some loose ends that need the attention of the PMO, the Cabinet Secretary and the Services, some of these are :

(a) No stake holder is a part of the committee. Since the committee has been granted the authority to co-opt additional members, the thrust should be on the request to have minimum of four members from the military committee – one serving, each from Army, Navy and Air force and one veteran. It may be recalled that similar committees for civilian employees function democratically with a 'staff side' and 'official side'. 

(b) When a Parliamentary Committee has already looked into the demand of One Rank One Pension (OROP) and recommended the same, would it be ethical for a committee of bureaucrats to examine the same demand? Wouldn’t this send a wrong message? Who is more important to the PM, the voice of elected representatives of a democracy or a body of career bureaucrats?

(c) There are many other important anomalies that remain unaddressed. How will those be addressed and by whom? Who decided that these were the only 9 issues that required redressal? Who picked up these 9 from the long list of ‘core issues’? One such very important issue is the issue of broad-banding of disability percentages which affects 80% of all disabled veterans in India and which has led to a spate of unwanted litigation, this issue is the most important stand-alone subject today which requires serious attention rather than rounds of litigation.

(d) Though despite internal inertia by lower echelons of the MoD, the committee has been established, but would it function on its own merits with proper application of mind by the members with independent inputs invited from all concerned or would it again fully depend upon the Pension and Pay/Services Wings of the MoD which have been at the forefront of stonewalling and putting up misleading notes to confuse the top leadership.

Some questions remain unanswered and the constitution of the committee is not perfect as far as its members are concerned, but I would request the defence community to be optimistic on the subject and not jump the gun till the time the recommendations are submitted. Also the Services HQ are at this time tirelessly working towards the objective and need our encouragement in this regard, not negative vibes.

Let us keep our fingers crossed, be optimistic and hope for the best. Still otherwise, this committee is not the last word even if does not entirely meet the expectations of the military community. 

75 comments:

Anonymous said...

very well said, navdeep ji,

let us all hope and pray that anomalies will be addressed. Where else can one look forward to but the government. The composition of the committee itself gives an indication of the intention of the government. Otherwise,the least could have been to ab-initio include members of three services and a veteran. That could have sent very very positive vibes across the defence forces.

Anyway, let us remain positive...

Anonymous said...

Once again well one Navdeep

Saying nothing i strongly feel besides serving and a veteran, you should be special member (may be a legal expert )as a part of the said committee, if they do decide have such members at all.

Thanks for highlighting the burning issue of broad banding.

Gurdeep Singh
Gp Capt (retd )

Anonymous said...

I reiterate my earlier comment on the previous post; nothing substantial will come of this entire fake exercise.
If the babus eventually agree to give in to even a few of the demands, they will ensure that all civilian Gp A, AIS etc will get an even better deal.
This 'encounter' may even have detrimental effects on the next PAY COMM.
The Baboos could easiy use this feigned interest to scuttle the decision of giving a separate Pay Comm to the Faujis.
As LaGuardia, the mayor of New York during the WW II said, "never underestimate the stupidity and cruelty of your enemy"; we must never underestimate the diabolical minds of the bureaucrats. If they give as much as one little pie to the Faujis, they will give ten to their civilian 'brethren'.
OROP for officers is a pipe dream; we must understand that given the present Baboo domination and control, NOTHING worthwhile will come thro.
So much for expectations of PARITY

PBOR said...

“Who is more important to the PM, the voice of elected representatives of a democracy or a body of career bureaucrats”

What else can u expect from an bureaucrat and non elected PM. Again, here too, we are responsible. Recall, who were jumping of joy on his becoming PM and circulation of his CVs on net captioned “who can beat it”. At that time we thought that we got a PM like us “padha likha” (as we call ourselves).

PBOR said...

And yes, don’t be surprised if Gp Capt Tendulkar and Lt Lol Dhoni are co-opted as AFs representative.:-)

BN Dubey said...

It seems as eye washby d govt. Its not bad to keep d hope alive . V should remain positive.

Anonymous said...

It really is a welcome step and we hope that this time the constitution of this committee is not with the purpose of delaying but for delivering. Pl. let us know by what time this committee will submit its report?

H/Capt. M.R. Sharma said...

Navdeep ji, it nice that you keep us posted about the latest. Hoping for the positive and quick outcome of the committee. We now want a big smile on the face of the ex-defence personnel who are actually wating to smile since long due to the apathy of the beaurucrates.

Anonymous said...

Again some of us seem to get carried away that this will clear all the issues and some are saying nothing will happen. Treat this as just another event towards luring ex-servicemen to entice them to vote for Congress/UPA. It will follow the same cycle of raised hopes and promise to solve if present govt comes to power and then forgotten.

Anonymous said...

Hope DACP is implemented in time alongwith NFFU and OROP.

Tukaram V Manerajurikar said...

Sir, very aptly put. Let us keep our fingures crossed till 15.08.2012 and hope atleast 9 anamolies out of thousands get clarified and implemented too. If OROP is given to civil side pensioners also later on, we veterans dont mind it. But our OROP for all ranks including commissioned officers is a must be implemented. For remaining we can fight later on. Better people like you be put on the committee as veterans representative, so the lower ones do not misguide the committee for injustice to veterans. Thanking you sir please keep us all update and if possible start the chatroll please.
Yours faithfully
Tukaram V Manerajurikar
Ex-Sgt, 646160, CLK/PA IAF

biswajit de ex/sgt said...

Thank you Navdeep Sir, You have correctly highlited the broadbanding of disability pension issue but unfortunately this is not in the agenda of the committee this time.can it be included subsequently to the agenda I also share your positive thinking regarding the outcome of committee s recommendations .

sunlit said...

@Tukaram V Manerajurikar said, "We veterans dont mind it." Well, we should. A truncated career for veterans+OROP can never be equal to a non-truncated career+OROP for civilians. With OROP, the latter will be again at an advantage.

Tukaram V Manerajurikar said...

@sunlit said " Sir, civil side already have an OROP for IAS/IRS/IPS etc. for Grades equivalent to all Commissioned Officers of AFs." I was talking about PBORs who by luck gets second civil carreer in Group C & D posts. For them we do not mind OROP after Veterans get it first.
Yours faithfully
Tukaram V Manerajurikar

sunlit said...

@Tukaram V Manerajurikar: Though one's sympathies will always be with armed forces veterans in second careers in civilian government posts, the very fact a second career has been made available to a handful would be sufficient redress for truncated careers in the armed forces in the case of those, relatively small in number, veterans.

It's the vast majority of armed forces veterans that needs some form of parity. I think what you are referring to OROP in the case of IAS/IPS etc is the 'OROP By Backdoor' through NFFU I had read about.

That is why, in the case of armed forces veterans, to cater for truncated careers, there has to be NFFU and OROP, minimally, for there to be any semblance of parity.

Harry said...

@ Maj Navdeep

Sir,

My thoughts on the four points mentioned by you are as under:-

Ser (a) : No stakeholder

Well, what more can be said on this. Despite crying hoarse on this aspect right from the days of 6th CPC composition itself, this aspect has been persistently ignored. It cannot possibly be out of ignorance. For those who may not know the very same 'biggest babuji' had asked senior veterans' delegation (led by Gen Raj Kadyan who had met him to conevy their grievances on the unfair dispensation for AFs post SCPC and other veterans' issues like OROP and widows' pension) to come through MoD. When reminded that that was the very root cause of the AFs personnels' problems as bureaucrates were both insensitive and inimical to AFs issues. To everyone's horror, hon'ble PM eplied "But that is the institutionalised system." So not having our rep on the panel is not only by mere design BUT IT IS WELL and TRUELY Machiavelian. So pls don't go by the poker faced looks of MMS.

Ser (b) : Parliamentary Committee

Apparently for a babjuji only a babuji is Supereme. Looks like MMS has still not graduated from his IES days despite being at the helm of the Govt and that too well into his second term now.

Ser (c) : Many other imp anomalies remain unaddressed.

Well, gullible and credulous poor faujis won't understand ever, would they? Who is interested in solving your anomalies dearies? They just want to announce some token measures which seemingly have more impact (like OROP which is most likely to get announced on 15th Aug) and ensure veterans' protests get fizzled out. After all elections are not too far off!

Ser (d) : Inertia by lower echlons of MoD.

Pretty axiomatic, seeing the fate of many such previous committees. BTW as feared the chances of lower MoD bureaucracy scuttling the whole excercise just can't be ruled out, expected independent-mindedness of the worthy constituents notwithstanding!!!

PS: "Committee is not the last word". Surely Sir, we can always keep waiting for the last word till eternity by which time tens of thousands of faujis would have had their LAST RITES done.

Anonymous said...

@Tukaram,
The group D and C posts in civil can serve till 60 years unlike the our jawans and sailors.It's basically for our jawans and sailors tht we are asking for OROP.It is also relevant to Officer Cadre who too have to retire early just because of the service.

You cannot have civilians having OROP...Period......It will lead to us being at a disadvantage again......

Tukaram V Manerajurikar said...

To @Anonymous 'Sir we are demanding OROP for all veterans. Of course meanwhile Govt. wont give OROP to civil side on my advice. It was my suggestion in view of Blogger that all the pensioners are of same class, whether you agree or disagree. It does not make atta dal cheaper for anybody who is a pensioner.

corona8 said...

@Tukaram:"..all the pensioners are of same class..";

How so?
A civilian retiring at 60, having drawn pay, allowances, increments all those 60 years, probably having enjoyed benefit of NFFU will be a pensioner of a very privileged class.

A veteran, who joined at about the same time as the civilian, but retiring in his 30s, 40s or 50s will be miles behind the same civilian in terms of pension when he reaches the age of 60 years. And he will not have drawn pay, allowances, increments from retirement age to 60 years.

So, let's not have a distorted view of parity. Let's have a realistic appreciation of how much at a disadvantage we really are.

Anonymous said...

You are really doing a great job by placing genuine demands before the govt and then pursuing and informing the outcome to the services. I am very hopeful that PM has taken a serious vies of the demands of the defence personnel and has issued directions to address these nine issues honestly. Let us hope for the best to come

ashok said...

the armed forces are their own worst enemies.FOLLOWING A VERTICAL PYAMID SYSTEM , RESULTS IN A TRUNCATED CAREER FOR MANY AND UNHAPPINESS FOR
ALL INCLUDING RANKS UPTO ARMY COMMANDERS.NOW WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS
ALARGE NO OF NCOS JCOS AND OFFICERS FROM COL TO GENERAL RANK MUST BE ACCOMMODATED INTHE STRAGEIC FORCES COMMAND .ARMED FORCES CIVILCADRE MUST
BE ABOLISHED AS ANY CASE THEY THEMSELVES HAVE MADE THIS RECOMMENDATION. IN THEIR PLACE NCOS
JCOS OFFICERS OF COL BRIG MAJ GEN RANK IN CIVILCLOTHES AND RETIRED
MUST FORM THE NEW ARMED FORCES CIVIL CADRE. ALL LTS CAPTS MAJS LTCOLS UNWILLING TO SERVE MUST BE SENT HOME WITH A GOLDEN HANDSHKE.
PENSIONABLE SERVICE REDUCED TO 15 YRS FOR ARMED FORCES.ARMY CDRS AND
PSOS MUST BE OF A NEW RANK COL GEN
AND THE THREE CHIEFS MUST BE FIELD MARSHAL RANK. NO SUPERSESSIONTILL BRIG RANK AND ALL TO RETIRE WITH A
LT GEN PENSION AND BULK WITH FFULL GEN PENSION.WIDOWS PENSION TO BE 75
PERCENT FOR BOTH SERVING AND RETIRED.

Dhoop said...

It's really wonderful to see so many constructive inputs by way of comments. But it's not clear how some comments, instead of focussing on issues and principles, are lowering the dignity of this blog by denigrating personages and indulging in low-level rhetoric based on some kind of bigoted political bias.

It was understandable that the chatroll did not have as many checks and balances and people could get away with that sort of thing, but for this worthy blog to now suffer the same fate would be painful to experience.

Kaps said...

I don't know if this is related, but submission of Naresh Chnadra committee report could be one of the reasons for this committee. Naresh Chandra com has submitted its recommendations as per article here http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article3646651.ece and they have done a hogwash of a job, if you believe the writer.

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir,
Let us don't have negative approach this time. I am sure that PM this won't fall prey to the ill advice of the some babus. I think this time message is quite clear to approve the OROP for the veterans and also the other issue. PM will be declaring it from the rampant of Red Fort on 15 August.
Let us Hope For the BEST!

Thanks
Ex Sgt. Mukesh Vaid, Amritsar

Vasundhra said...

Interesting developments. I agree with those who are skeptical.The issue is not on the formulation of the Committee but the way it has been formulated and the way its membership has been constituted consisting of the very same people who still are the tormentors and have stonewalled each and every welfare step and are still doing {CSD(I)is the live case of strangulation by squeezing the funds & simultaneously spreading the word that users of CSD(I) are petty thieves who sell the stuff in market} are going to decide the very same issues which they have sabotaged till date and are still in the act of sabotage.Forget about ‘TRANSPARENCY’ We don’t know what this Committee will be known as, will it be Cabinet Secretary/ PM's/PMO's or What Committee on Defense Issues. The complete gambit of this committee till date is 'OPAQUE'. Examine the issues closely and critically which the Committee is going to examine have either been decided by the various Courts of Law or are the of shoots of those judgements or are falling under the Fundamental rights under the constitution or were act of deprivations due to some acts of omission like four and half lakh Widow Pensioners by Committee of Secretaries. Remedy was only one line amendment to include ‘ AFFECTED WIDOWS’ . WHATEVER BE THE OUTCOME, THIS TIME BABUs ARE IN THE TRAP OF THEIR OWN MAKING.By constituting this COMMITTEE they have put themselves in a corner where both ‘HEADs’ they lose and ‘TAIL’s we win and in a common man’s language they have put a ‘LIZZARD’ in their mouth which they will neither be able to swallow nor spit out. THIS ACT has put ‘DEATH’ on prowl.

balli said...

I hope something does come out of this and the enthusiasm one sees for a separate pay commission to my mind is misplaced because then these babus will not even give us one or two rung lower status today at least we are able to fight/make noises for parity.
Though at the expense of protest one may add that the three services lack the vision for preparing a tangible pay commission draft report if we asses the draft recommendation for 6 pay commission ;full of holes and self defeating recommendation.
Col BM Talwar

Kamal said...

Can Any one clarify the NFFU. Whether it means financial up gradation only upto next higher rank i.e. lt Col to Col, Col to Brig, Brig to Maj Gen , MAj Gen to LT Gen or it financial upgradation till Maj Gen / Lt Gen for All ?

PBOR said...

Be assure of "SOME" announcement on 15th of August. Chunaw ki Aahat.

PBOR said...

If i were a ‘BABU’ i would have taken a clue from 0 comments on “Introducing ‘The Alpha Stories, a stellar effort by a military spouse", 56 comments on “PERSONNEL POLICIES : ARMY SHOOTS ITSELF IN THE FOOT” , 12 comments on "Free E-Book: Impact of coming into force of the Armed Forces Tribunal, Reflections by Lt Gen S Pattabhiraman", four comments on “Rumour killer :- Armed Forces Grievances Redressal Commission”and 84 comments on “Committee on defence pay and pension anomalies, some additional issues” and dealt with you i mean AFs accordingly. :-)

Anonymous said...

PBOR ji,
nice to read your views. your assessment of the situation is based on just one factor that is number of comments on a post. What an idea sirji. only u can make such an assessment... I am sure babus take clue not from number of comments but from comments from people like you.

Vasundhra said...

LT COL INDERJIT SINGH..DEDICATED VETERAN SOLIDER OF OROP,ever since 1982. Read his views, where in one can smell the stink of the wheel of sabotage within the various wheels of bureaucratic machinations at play. Individual interpretations are left to the readers!!!!! READ ON

http://indiamydreamland.blogspot.in/2012/07/response-to-appointment-of-committee.html

Harry said...

Maj Navdeep

Sir,

Now that Cab Secy led panel is going to consider our anomalies (regardless of our views on its composition), I thought it is a good time to pen my thoughts on MNFFU (Military Non Functional Financial Upgradation). MNFFU has to be different for AFs officers, pls allow me to explain why:-

1. IAS officers reach SAG grade (GP 10,000) in 16/17 years so it means non IAS allied Services Class A Civ Officers will get NFFU in 19 yrs (max) Service and will draw identical Grade pay of Rs 10,000). But in case of AFs, Maj Gen rank (and equivalent) is attained after 31/32 yrs service (excl trg period). So if NFFU were to be given to Non Empanelled officers below Maj Gen Rank then may be only a few (who joined relatively at younger age) would be able to get the benefit as most of them would have retired before being eligible in terms of service as Lt Cols and Cols retire at 54 yrs and Brigs at 56 yrs age. So getting to HAG/HAG plus would be well nigh impossible for almost everyone (save for a few Maj Gens who have age on their side).

2. So a civ officer will start getting the benefit of Grade Pay Rs 10,000 from 19th yr (of service) onwards, poor fauji will again get shafted and may miss out totally. Mind you civ officer with 60 yrs retirement age will reach HAG/HAG plus category before retirement. Thus even if we get our OROP and NFFU (which we should ideally) we STILL won't compare favorably with civ officers in terms of pay and pension.

3. If we get NFFU at the same time as non IAS civ officers (i.e 19 yrs) that may be unacceptable to the org (pls recall Army's refrain against NFFU stating that there would be no charm for higher ranks).

4. So what is the solution? (Ans: I'm still thinking on it)!!!

PS: All are requested to give it a thought so as to arrive at a best possible solution keeping all things in mind.

Anonymous said...

@Harry

I fail to understand if NFFU does not make higher ranks unattractive in civies how the NFFU is going to make higher rank unattractive in Armed Forces. I request to AF fraternity to change the mind set and move ahead. If we do not change or mindset we will keep on bleeding...

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Harry

Sir,

NFU for the Army is not going to be linked with military ranks but with the Central empanellement of the IAS.

Secondly, even NFU for civil servants is not linked with grade progression of the IAS, it is linked to the central empanellment progression. For example, it is only after 20 years of service when an IAS officer gets empanelled as a Joint Secy to Govt of India, so other services including the defence would get the same GP in 22 years of service. Similarly, when an IAS offr gets empanelled as an Addl Secy to GoI, others would move into HAG after two years. The only negative offshoot could be that some of our people may retire before reaching HAG level.

Harry said...

Maj Navdeep


Sir,

1. Thanks for your clarification about NFU being related to Central empanellment and not grade of IAS.

2. So let us take a fresh look at the issue. IAS empanellment as Dirs in GoI is at about 13 yrs. So AFs offrs will get GP of Rs 8700 at 15 yrs thus implying that Combat Support Arms and Services will have their Lt Cols reaching GP of Rs 8700 (Cols GP) BEFORE being considered for SB3. But since GP and Mil ranks have to be ultimately DELINKED this would be a good beginning.

3. Thereafter at 22 yrs Service ALL Lt Cols and Cols will get GP of Rs 10,000 BUT at 26/27 yrs Cols (Select) will be considered for promotion to Brigs (GP 8900) by SB2. This means after their SB2, newly promoted (to Brigs) Cols will wear rank badges of Brigs and WILL continue to get GP of Rs 10,000 as hithertofore (as GP can't possibly be lowered to 8900 after promotion). Meanwhile Lt Cols (after 22 yrs Service) and Cols(TS) (after 26 yrs service) WILL continue to draw GP of Rs 10,000 as before w/o any change in status or rank. So far so good.

4. At 22 yrs service, let us assume median age of an AFs officer to be 23+22= 45 yrs. So a non empanelled Lt Cols(vast majority actually, about 70% in Other Arms and Services and 40%-45% in Combat Arms seeing the present skewed selection percentages) would have another nine yrs to go before retirement (present retirement age being 54 yrs). IAS officers get empanelled as Addl Secys at about 29/30 yrs. So AFs officers would get into HAG at 32 yrs. It means very few Cols(TS) and Cols(S) would get into HAG. Most Brigs and virtually all Maj Gens will get this benefit.

Final Words: So overall it is definitely a STEP FORWARD BUT STILL can't be termed as PARITY with civ Class A offrs who will laugh their way into HAG/HAG Plus before they retire and thus would draw higher pension even if AFs get OROP.

Vasundhra said...

@ Harry, ref urs Para 4

“IAS officers get empanelled as Addl Secys at about 29/30 yrs. So AFs officers would get into HAG at 32 yrs. It means very few Cols(TS) and Cols(S) would get into HAG. Most Brigs and virtually all Maj Gens will get this benefit.


The solution lies in reintroducing the concept of “ ‘WEIGHTAGE OF YEARS ‘ OR Increase in percentage of Pension (from existing 50%) with reference to last pay drawn towards calculation of Pension to compensate EARLIER RETIREMENT “ If examined in correct perspective there is a weight in this on the ground of conditions which are peculiar to Armed Forces, but in the existing circumstances it will be a far fetched thinking. This if adopted can also lead to faster promotions by simply reducing the age of retirement to 50/52 to keep younger profile and compensating the damage by giving enhanced Pension.

Anonymous said...

@harry,

Well, let us hope that pay cells of three services and COSC would have done this basic calculation that a colonel who retires at 54 years at present get the benefit of lt gen's pension equivalent as in the case of civilian officers. (six years extra service for civilian officers still can not be equated. Additional compensation in terms of more than 50% pension needs to be thought of for defence services)

One option could be to grant NFFU to defence personnel at the same time as IAS and not two years after as for civilian officers. That will take care of not counting of training period to some extent in the service of defence officers and also is likely to result in at least some officers with service on their side to get NFFU for lt gen/ additional secretary equivalent.

Maj Navdeep would be able to throw some more light on this issue.

I hope we do not have a situation like jawans where third ACP can not be granted as most of the jawans would have been compulsorily retired before that.

Harry said...

@ BCV and Anony above

Sirs,

Some of the options are as given below:-

1. Cols are sent home @ 54 yrs NOT because they desire so but because of AFs' (i.e Nation's) requirement to have a younger Mil profile. So they should get adequately compensated for early forced retirement in terms of lumpsum CRS (Compulsory Retirement Scheme) Package for loss of pay of six yrs OR Govt should laterally absorb them till 60 yrs. Ditto for Brigs (loss of four yrs) and Maj Gens (loss of two yrs).

2. Pensionary benefits for AFs CANNOT be less attractive than civs by any rational. However this will be the case even if NFU and OROP are implemented. So accordingly the idea (as put forth by @BCV) of granting 'weighted pension' needs to be implemented for those Services Offrs who otherwise would not reach HAG/HAG Plus grades due to forced early retirement as compared to civs.

Over to our Pay Cells and PPOC !

Parameswaran MK, Hon Lt said...

everybody is bothered about the problems of officers. Nobody seems to be serious about the problems of JCOs/OR and equivalents.Is there anybody to go through it and suggest remedial measures?

sunlit said...

@Vasundhra:"...OR Increase in percentage of Pension..."

I had tried to work out some of the issues relating to length of service vis-a-vis pension over here.

Anonymous said...

Please recall the starting basic pay after 5th pay commission, 8250 for AFs and 8000 for all other Gp A services including IAS officers.The initial edge enjoyed by AFs officers during that time makes a very strong case for NFFU after same years (if not less) of service as IAS empanallment.Any thoughts!!

Tukaram V Manerajurikar said...

Sir, what is happening in all Chief's meeting with the committee today? Please provide latest updates on the issue till 15.08.2012. Thank you sir.
Yours faithfully
Ananymous

akash said...

what about military nursing service?

Penmil said...

@ Harry ,July 20, 2012 9:39 AM.
There is much hope and emphasis, in the discussions, on NFFU's power to take one to the equivalent pay of an HAG scale, purely based on one's length of service.
But NFFU is relatively a new award and there is no evidence yet of any one having reached to the HAG Scale on this route.

Please recall the way it was conceived, at Office Memorandum No. AB.14017/64/2008-Estt.(RR), dated 24th April, 2009, Government of India,Ministry of Personnel, Public Grievances and Pensions,Department of Personnel and Training.

It imposes many conditions , notably of the officer being considered, to be eligible for regular promotion at least an year prior to the grant of that NFFU pay.

Therefore, further NFFU may stop after one step, if the officer so benefitted does not get, unfortunately, a regular promotion, though the NFFU benefit is available till one qualifies/becomes eligible for HAG scale/grade.

Unless the Armed Forces have devised a much more imaginative and hurdles free NFFU scheme, say like the DACP scheme, there is not much to be derived from the NFFU scheme , even if granted.

On the other hand the OROP scheme may be of much more benefit, though it comes into effect only after one retires.
The OROP concept has been through much debate and discussion and has also the blessings of the Rajya Sabha Petition's Committee and might obtain easy political acceptability.

Thugh not relevant here, you may also recall that 6th CPC was not favourable to creating fresh Organized Group 'A' Services, which might be taken as a hint for not granting NFFU benefits( even in the current formand shape) to fresh cadres.

Vasundhra said...

Result of Meeting held on 18th July for OROP by the way It is almost akin to what 'Harry' had suggested earlier

http://www.gconnect.in/news/result-of-meeting-one-rank-one-pension.html?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzEmail&utm_content=408382&utm_campaign=Express_%272012-07-20+00:30:00%27

sunlit said...

There is an update of sorts regarding the subject on the NDTV Blog.

Tukaram V Manerajurikar said...

Sir, Much is talked about OROP & NFFU and comparing the downgradation of Armed Forces. But everyone overlooks the VIth Pay Commission came w.e.f.01.01.2006 and w.e.f. 01.01.2004 there is no pensionary/Provident Fund benefits to all IAS/IPS/IRS etc. Grade A Officers or GP B, C & D civil staff joined after 01.01.2004. Whereas defence persons joining after 01.01.2004 will get pension/Fund benefits. In future civil side will ask for OROP at par with AFs. Ironic is'nt it? Though there is no provision and can not be implemented by President ( Leave beuracrats even of Cabinet Secretary Level). Please check up the latest on civil side before demanding for more than them.
Yours faithfully
Tukaram V Manerajurikar

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

TVM, actually OROP is an ideal concept which with time should be extended to all pensioners with an additional benefit to faujis for their truncated careers.

Yes, we cannot act as holy cows.

Tukaram V Manerajurikar said...

That is it. Rightly said sir, I was saying the same thing that all pensioners are one class. However defence pensioners due to truncared career at 30,35,40,45,50 needs extra pensinary benifits. This is alsoo not extra only OROP with every pay commission missed by the retiree. I think civil side pensioners will see 2 or 3 pay commissions and there is end of Govt. pension for that class, because those joined after 2004 will be superannuated then.

Anonymous said...

T V M, sure after 2004, more than civil = 0000.

sunlit said...

@Major Navdeep: ..holy cows.."

That goes without saying.

But, I think, the present reality is the armed forces and veterans are at serious risk of being downgraded to 'unholy' status.
At the most fundamental level, the requirement is not of some extra-special status. Serving the country directly in defending it is an honour in itself.

But, parity with the civilian establishment, appropriate compensation while in service for the special conditions AFs face and requisite adjustment for truncated careers as well as the steep pyramid are all that are being asked for.

Therefore, just to have parity, there would have to be some differential in pay/allowances/pensions vis-a-vis the civilian set up.

Anonymous said...

A perspective of Armed Services top brass towards jointmanship. Unfortunately armed services have an equal share oh blame if not more.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.idsa.in/system/files/Monograph6.pdf

corona8 said...

Has anyone ever tabulated the post NFU pay, MSP, Grade Pay for different ranks with varying years of service?

Tukaram V Manerajurikar said...

Sir, Sorry the dates from 01.04.2004 may be amended for 01.01.2004 for which New Pension Scheme ( Totally Contributory i.e. 10% of Basic Plus Grade Pay plus Dearness Pay/Allowance)for Civil side is implemented. Thats why there was no fresh IAS?IRS/IPS cadres were considered in VI pay Commission w.e.f. 01.01.2006. This PM's Committee is implemented in view of Narendra Committee's report on improving the terms & Conditions alongwith other reforms of AFs, i think so.

Anonymous said...

is there any O.R.O.P. in US, UK, Canada ?

Air Warrior

Vasundhra said...

Non Functional Finance Upgradation (N F F U) is unconstitutional and violates the Article 14 of the constitution .There fore ‘NFFU SHOULD BE ABOLISHED FORTH WITH’. NFFU is discriminatory both in nature and application. The guiding principles for discrimination are -

Discrimination occurs when a public authority, for no objective or reasonable reason: (a) Treats a person or a body of persons less favourably than others in similar situations on the basis of a particular characteristic . In this case Armed Forces have been denied NFFU on the silly excuse that AFs are COMMISSIONED SERVICES hence NFFU is not applicable

(b)Fails to treat people differently when they are in significantly different situations :- Group of undeserving people are getting financially upgraded because they happen to be wasters & happen to be marking their time & mean while because of some other Group which has matured and advanced to take on higher responsibilities there is no reason why these waters be benefitted. Benefitting the non performers in it self is discriminatory

(c ) Applies apparently neutral policies in a way that has a disproportionate impact on individuals or groups :- Government has behaved in a neuter gender towards AFs in application of NFFU, which by itself has generated a feeling of discrimination within the ‘RANK & FILE’ of AFs

On closer examination it gets amply clear that application of NFFU is a SCAM which has been legalized by blackmail tactics of a Group of employees for sectarian advantages and AFs should not become a partner in this NATIONAL LOOT and should advocate the abolition of NFFU

Vasundhra said...

THREE CHEERS FOR MAJOR NAVDEEP SINGH:Do watch an interesting discussion on the Day & Night News channel on the Pay & Allowances Panel recently announced by the PM’s Office:



Part 1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqcns68kmI0

Part 2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz2elHr9Q1Y

Dhoop said...

@Anonymous:"...US, UK, Canada..." They have an excellent set of programmes for vets, the likes of which can only be imagined.

PBOR said...

3 panelists + anchor. all 4 are on different frequencies. khuda khair kare

NAGIREDDY said...

Rn reddy -- Some of the critical job functions and powers of any commissioned officers are not less than the IAS/IPS officers . Commissioned officers are well trained and they can also perform civil duties like IAS/IPS . Many commissioned officers with 5 yrs of service may give option to work as IPS officers with starting grade pay of Rs 5400 . How many IPS officers may opt for military service even more grade pay is offered to them ? Definitely it may be nil . So immediate corrective measures have to be taken by the Honble Prime minister and the status of captain ,major and other commissioned officers in Navy and Airforce as was before third pay commission , have to be restored .

Dhoop said...

@ Comment Maker Calling Himself PBOR:"...all 4 are on different frequencies..."; What did you expect? A panel is not a tribunal in a military dictatorship. Panelists are supposed to have different points of view. Where did the anchor express his views of a "different frequency"??.

BC MISHRA said...

Dear Maj Navdeep, Thanks to keep us informed about the latest.One of the high lights of discussion in TV by U & other retd gen offrs recently was pension anamoly between pre 2006 retd lt col & majors.How could not the same not be addressed in 6 cpc. It is really surprising. It is the biggest anamoly which need to be addressed on priority. It need to be kept in mind that in case of others, there is some relationship between the past & the present, but in case of a major having 20 years of service,there is nothing. Thanks to AV Singh report implementation due to which offrs got benefited unlike us who retired as majors due to policy existing then. Thanks & regards. BC Mishra

Anonymous said...

@ Dhoop,dt 22 Jul,2012 9.45 PM , i asked for O.R.O.P. of US UK canda, as because, it is put before us that, INDIA will become super power after 2020, so i think in 2020 our pension should be more than US .as we are super power..

Dhoop said...

@Anonymous: "...INDIA will become super power after 2020..."

Well we all look forward to that day, don't we.

But I hope our civilian friends learn to park their cars, use their car-horns and stop at red lights by then as well.

Anonymous said...

Can anyone enlighten me on this aspect; Does NFFU (NFU??) mean an increase in only grade pay or does it affect basic pay etc. As I understand it only Grade pay increases within that pay band unless one is moving from PB$ to HAG etc.

Any light on this, Gentlemen???

V Natarajan said...

"India will become Super Power after 2020!". But as of now, all must be "dreaming in darkness?"

To-day's news/captions all-over:
Tuesday, July 31, 2012 (cite Report My Signal blogspot)

"Massive power outage: Indians face reality- Powerless!"

LET US HOPE THE "ALL POWERFUL" NEW DEFENCE COMMITTEE'S REPORT IS NOT HANDICAPPED/ SHORTED FOR WANT OF "POWER" !

Capt Sharma said...

Nodoubt, India has in it to become Super Power.However,it will require rewriting of Constitution.It is very hard to find men of stature of Raja Ram or Harishchander. India is fortunate to have one goodman in Mr PM.He regrettably is crippled and surviving on crutches of alliance. Parliamentary democracy will have to give way to Presidential form of Governance. Moot question, "Can such a change take place with peaceful means?" I opine,"No". Lets give our nation time till 2016, that is under present parliament system two years into next government in power, post 2014 elections. We can expect storms of change hitting Indian chores, if the present mind set of politicians and Political parties does not go to cleaners. God bless our country.

Krish said...

Whether the issue of military service pay to army postal service personnels from dept of posts has been included in the agenda? Please inform.

Rajesh said...

Just heard the TV news that Govt has rejected the request by Armed forces to have a rep in the pay panel headed by Cabinet Secy.
Is it correct ???

rajkumar said...

dear harry and maj navdeep
as per present rules of NFFU a lt col can not get scale of brig and above .
because to get scale of brig a Lt col has to meet all condition of promotion to brigadier rank .
i.e. he has to be in a col rank with prescribed no of years .

in civil also this condition is applicable .

so in reality NFFU is only a scheme granting just next scale .
next to next scale is only granted when one is alredy in next scale .

Tukaram V Manerajurikar said...

Who is rajkumar? Bollywood Jaani Rajkumar or IAS Dy.Secy NFU Rajkumar?Pm is to announce NFFU, OROP by 15.08.2012. Do not loisten to him. NFFU if granted will solve the problems of Command/Pay Parity of present AFs. We can ask for OROP to them in future also. Please think it over veterans. JAI HIND

Rajesh said...

This is with ref to Rajkumars comment that Lt Col doesnt meet criteria of Brig to be eligible for NFFU of Brig scale.
I may say that Lt Col gets a Time scale of Col with his grade pay and after the requisite no: of years he shud get the scale of Brig as well.NFFU means NonFunctional grade and for that one need not be a Brig to be functional in that scale.

rajkumar said...

please read my comments carefully and seriously .
how govt fooled GP A organised service officers .
everybody was under impression that everybody will retire as addl secy pay scale ( EQvt scale of LT GEN )

but later on many clarifications recd
to get NFFU scale of addl secy one has to be in scale of joint secy on regular basis with requisite no of service .

on similar lines to get the NFFU scale of Lt Gen one has to be in scale of maj General on regular basis .
so the lot who is not promoted to maj gen on regular or substantive basis , cant get Lt gen scale on NFFU scheme .

believe me this is the rule on civil side .

so a Lt col will not keep on getting pay scale of higher posts up lt Gen

I request all to study in deep and take up matter at appropriate level .

Anonymous said...

Dear sir,
Can anyone tell us for Gods sake what is this common pay scale for JCOs and ORs? Of late, we have been seeing a lot of discussions on TV and were reading articles in media about the Committee for Defence pay and pension anomalies.
Everywhere the discussions are being focused on NFFU for LT GEN and pay fixation for Lt Col and above. Is there anyone who is interested or at least concerned about the so called 'PBOR' and willing to discuss their problems? They also have NFP issue. In other services like CCS, revenue, postal, Delhi and A&N police service, etc, NFP of GP Rs 5400 is granted after serving for 4 years in grade pay of Rs 4800/-. Why this is not being granted to defence personnel?
Posts of above mentioned services/ ministries/ dept.s, which were at par with defence forces’ JCOs, have been upgraded in the 6 CPC. Hence, the JCOs are now drawing one Grade Pay lesser than their counterparts in civil. For eg- Subedar of Army and Section Officers are at par and they were drawing same pay (in fact, the starting pay of subedar was more from 3CPC till 5CPC). In 6th CPC, Subedar is given Grade Pay of Rs. 4600 whereas Section Officers are given GP of Rs.4800. In addition, they will be granted Grade Pay of Rs.5400 as Non Functional Pay after 4 years of service in grade pay Rs.4800, which is not the case in defence forces. Non Functional Grade Pay of Rs. 5400 is not granted to defence personnel at any stage of their career.
Take the case of MSP. PBOR are given Rs 2000 as MSP and Rs.6000 for officers. In my opinion MSP should be given equally to all defence personnel including officers. For any reason, if it has to be in different slabs for officers, JCOs and Ors, it should be given as Rs 6000, Rs 4000 and Rs 2000 respectively.

Hony Capt N A Joseph said...

MSP for a sepoy and Subedar Major is same ie Rs 2000. This is a clear cut case of injustice to the rank of Subear Major. MSP for JCOs shoul be increased to Rs 4000.