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Sunday, January 1, 2012

A very Happy New Year, followed by an important point of debate


Those who are at war with others are not at peace with themselves
-       William Hazlett

Once again, here’s hoping for world peace in 2012.

A very Happy New Year to all readers of this blog.

Now on with a very important issue for 2012.

As all of us know, the defence services have been kept out of the purview of the Lok Pal, as envisaged. Many serving and former service-members have expressed great happiness over it.

I would like to gather from the readers whether they feel this move (of exclusion of defence services) is in the overall long-term benefit of the forces or not.

Individual views on the subject may be projected on the comments section of this blog-post.

Thank You

Navdeep

78 comments:

Anonymous said...

many things are happening in da garb of uniform/Defence people/officer and gentlemen,,, whistle blowers in army if not shot dead like in civil.. but atleast made sure he is equal to walking dead,, >>> Armed Forces to be under ambit of LOKPAL,

Mickey said...

Armed forces are not above the parliament.

If the members of the parliament are within the purview of proposed Lokpal (with whatever riders), members of defence forces too should be a part of the proposed Lokpal (with similar riders).

I still remember when the RTI had come into the forces. There was a lot of concern on how this act could be misused. But, eventually, I think it ended up having the desired effect.... of improving the transparency in the "system".

If my 2 cents count, I will vote for Lokpal for the services too.

enchanted said...

This is a retrograde step...v know how v r and lot of things will get sorted out for the benefit of the defence forces......

Anonymous said...

Lokpal for services is
Must

Anonymous said...

Yes, definitely armed forces should be under lokpal. Otherwise there is no difference between us and politicians as they also want everyone else to be under lokpal except themshelves.

Anonymous said...

It is hightime that actions of armed forces be under scrutiny. Our General Officers have taken the system for a ride and over aperiod of time become autocrat. With so many corruption cases surfacing in the recent past, Lokpal would at least act as a deterrent. It is often been said that with corruption cases being highlighted, morale of the troops is affected. In fact, the troops deserve far more, will get better deals with Lokpal's sword hanging over the senior officers neck. Arguement that Armed forces are governed by respective Acts is bullshit. Most of us know how it functions. Guys... Better late than sorry ever.

babu said...

Dear all
wish u a very happy & prosperous new year to all. no body is above law and i feel that armed forces also should be under lokpal.
regards
babu

paddy said...

we are not some GODS. if PM, MPs, CBI and all other services under Lokpal, we armed forces also must be under lokpal. Transparency which is non-existing in forces as on date must come. i want to know how money is being spent in MES works, stores and spares procurement etc., Enough of system susceptibility to individual(decision maker's) whims and fancies.

Anonymous said...

I am in favour of Defence Forces to be under LOKPAL.May be we in uniform feel that Defence Forces dont do wrong !But I think many things are not going as they should be and to make sure that there is some check everyone should come under the LOKPAL. The problem is LOKPAL will be manned by same judges and some other imminent personalties amongst usonly.It is becoming difficult to find ppl who will do justice to the job.Let us hope and pray we can suceed.
GURDEEP SINGH
Group Captain (Retd )

SATTY'S CORNER said...

It is a very good thing the armed forces have been kept outside the ambit of the LOKPAL.No political party has asked for their inclusion.As per the Constitution the armed forces directly come under the President of India and are not part of Govt Services.Also the AF have got their own internal checks & balances to punish the guilty.eg Sukhna scam.I feel their not inclusion is a correct step in national security.

pragmatic said...

The rationale for keeping armed forces out of purview of Lokpal has not been explained properly. Every Govt service falls under the President of India. There might be some catch. The time has not come in this nation where armed forces are considered to be the best and the internal audits are considered effective(Ref CAG wanting to audit URCs. For internal security, armed forces are not considered, for foreign policies armed forces are not considered, for granting NFFU, armed forces are not considered, for compensating their 24x7 reqmt,armed forces are not considered. Why here?

Lt Col G K Mohan Rao said...

Armed Forces with certain riders like national security, deployment etc should be brought under lokpal, as so many scams has been coming out in the recent past which is an iceberg of the malady

kprakash650 said...

The in built mechanism for arresting corruption, ie through command channels, has failed miserably. It is not out in the open because of the secrecy and seclusion of the armed forces from rest of the society.
There is no way that armed forces can reform itself without an external overseer like Lokpal or its equivalent.
Things are slowly changing and the cloak over the forces' deeds will disappear in due course. This may lead to crumbling of the forces from their era of glory. It is in the best interest of the forces and the nation that they should come under purview of Lokpal.
And I sincerely hope that even in its present form the CGDA and LAO are under Lokpal.

Naren said...

No justification for anyone to be out of it.Reasonable safeguards may be made to suspend the provisions in times of War/operations/hostilities etc.
RTI and Lokpal can make the AFs more transparent and will deter ppl from meddling with the ACR,Procurement, Acquisition,Postings,Promotions n such sensitive matters.
Absolutely no justification to treat the AFs like the Holy Cow.

Raj said...

At unit level while making procurement, We land up buying low cost items, at times, by paying good amount of premium... why? Because you or your boss wants item immediately but purchase procedure don't allow for such rush.. the supplier can expect to get money only after six months from CDA and I don't know what efforts he has to put over there.. even for small value item we expect the supplier to come to us, once with sample that we would get approved by our boss, he has to follow our procedures when he can sell the products to others just by displaying it in showcase and just one receipt.. at times you don't have fund available under the head in which this item can be purchased but have ample amount available under head where you don't know how to use it?? Tell me how many of us may get complained against... manage somehow attitude will have to end completely, even if you can't manage, it has to be an acceptable option before you want to open up defence for scrutiny by some such agency which won't understand these compulsions and will go only by the book... right now the one that carryout our audits know these constraints well and most often turn a blind eye towards small procedural mistakes...

Anonymous said...

DIFFERENT TAKE: WHY Lokpal and bring in more expenditure. Make the present LAW more strident and effective. Definitely include everybody including Armed Forces as long as it doesnot jeopardise National Security.A transparent, honest,vibrant India will Shine bright forever.Wish you all a happy 2012.Regards Doctor

Unknown said...

Armed Forces must definitely be under the Lokpal. Transaparency is the buzzword of the future and we should embrace it and rather take a lead in this matter and set an example for others to emulate. Its high time that the garb of national security is thrown off and skeletons cleared from cupboards.

Anurag

vikram said...

the def forces should NOT be under the LOKPAL. the services might have their share of black sheep but we r miles ahead of the civil fraternity. We r talking of punishing the guilty in the forces w/o forgetting that our civil counterparts simply get away with suspensions back again. Let us not get carried away by blindly saying that that i want 2 know how much is being spent on wks. JOSH MEIN "HOSH" mat kho jao.

vikram

JUSTIN said...

I FEEL THIS LOKPAL BILL ISSUE IS A GIMMICK.THE MAN IN POWER R THE DECISSION MAKERS AND THE BREAKERS.IF A WAR DISABLED VETERAN SOLDIER HAS TO RUN PILLAR AND POST 4 HIS RIGHTFULL DUES THEN..... so i feel lokpalbill is of no use.

OM DUTT JOSHI said...

IT IS IN THE INTEREST OF ARMED FORCES TO KEEP THEM OUT OF LOKPAL BILL.WE HAVE GOT INBUILT SYSTEM OF FIGHTING CORRUPTION AND PUNISHING THE GUILTY.CORRUPTION CASES ARE DEALT ON PRIORITY AND QUICKLY WITHOUT DELAY.

Anonymous said...

Yes. The Armed Forces should be under the Lokpal.

kd singh said...

as per present trend in the armed forces with respect to corruption in the higher echelons ,i vote for the armed forces to be under the lokpal.

Col Madan Veteran said...

I feel only those who are scared of skeleton in their cup boards will not like to bring Defence Forces under the gambit of LOKPAL I feel for betterment of Forces we must be under the LOKPAL

Lt Col(Retd) R S Dasila said...

The objective of Lokpal is to check and deter corruption in the country. The rationale for keeping the armed forces out of the ambit of Lokpal is not justified as explained during the discussion in the Lok Sabha viz army, air force and naval acts. Is AF free from corruption? If no, the proposal of keeping AF out of the purview of Lokpal is justified. But I do believe it is yes, then AF need to be kept under the ambit of Lokpal with riders that it shouldn't hamper the functioning of the forces because the security & safety of the country is paramount.
Therefore, I am of the opinion that AF should be under the ambit of proposed Lokpal.

Anonymous said...

My dear friends,
The real reason why lokpal is not applicable to the armed forces is that the Army act, AF act and navy act are constitutional acts and not (NOT) Acts of Parliament.

Acts of Parliament cannot superimpose on constitutional act.

For eg; Lokpal cannot override the protection provided to AF personnel under the constitution.

BUT---------------------------

As I read comments everyone is rooting for it.

Therefore Logically-----------

It should make us wonder why all MPs have accepted to keep AF out of Lokpal.

The reason may be---------------

The protection provided to AF personnel under the constitution will now enable the same AF personnel to question the MoD and other state functionaries about its decisions by raising issues under the Lokpal. The entire defence audit and estate dept will be brought to a grinding halt.
--Which is dangerous; to say the least: And every excercise with troops cannot take place.

-----------------------------
What we need is Maj Navdeep's suggestion of an internal mechanism of buidling up trust within and legendary honour by the (al)mighty ranks.

rajeev kumar said...

the way people are supporting armed forces to be under lokpal . it seems only one or two persons are writing here with different names. my view is lokpal or no lokpal there will be no change in system . even the lokpal will use the same investigating agency , same laws and same courts . the rate of prosecution will be very low . eventually corruption is linked with our national character . so far even a single man or women has taken a pledge that they will not take bribes , despite all this hulla gulla . i strongly feel that inter mechanism of armed forces should be strong enough to tackle corruption in armed forces . there is no need of an outside agency .

anant ram said...

today services like MES and BRO are deep in to the corruption . i hope recent arrest by CBI of some senior army officers will deter some people .

Anonymous said...

Rules should apply evenly to everybody, even the armed forces. Armed forces require to be monitored much more than other today with all the rubbish thats happening inside. The last bastion of hope and honesty cannot be allowed to wither away because of many corrupt senior officers. 'Let there be Lokpal'

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony 10.14 PM

There is nothing called 'Constitutional' Act. There is only one Constitution of India. Perhaps you are confusing with 'Constitutional' status, however even that is not true with any of the services.

@Rajeev Kumar 10.24 PM

That is a strange delusion - that same people are writing under different names. Nobody is foolish enough to do that, in this time and age of technological advancement. Besides you can see the proper net-handles of various regular contributors on the comments section.

Anonymous said...

Services should verymuch be within the purview of Lokpal

S Chander said...

Corruption issues within the armed forces must come under the purview of Lokpal. Present bill proposed by the Govt is in any case lacks sincerity of the purpose and may be referred to the Select Committee of the Parliament, which must review the proposal related to armed forces.

Velayudhan said...

Dear Maj Navadeep,

Wish you all a happy and prosperous New year.
AF must be kept away from the ambit of Lokpal as sufficient safe guards exists to check curruption through various acts, rules and regulations.Even if the AF is kept under the Lokpal then they also have to go through the existing acts, rules and regulations( for Army its Army act DSR various AIs and AOs and of course the Mil laws.)
There is no dearth of laws and in fact there are so many laws exists which becomes difficult to follow, and hence you have an execuse not to follow.
Do you expect a civ police officer to be sitting in our units 24x7 to investigate cases when kept under Lokpal.The audit people who come and audit our QM nd other stores are well known and the harrassment one undergoes is anybodys guess. They even want to carry out the audit of URCs. For what?Quarterly AUDIT BOARDS are detaioed by formation cdrs as per the DSR,and varified by the superior formation Cdrs. yes some indiscipline and miscunduct is likely to take place for which the parliament has already passed laws and action are being taken to hold GCMs agaist the defaulters compared to the civil servents who always get away with it.
So I strongly feel that all services like CDAs and audit teams who are dealing with AF should be under command of AF for which they are basically meant rather than dictating terms and should be under AF.
I strongly feel that there is big communication gap between the chiefs and the defence Min as he is more dependent on bureaucrats rather than chiefs of AF and the need of the hour is the much talked about CDS in place to sort out the problem and bringing AF under Lokpal is not rpt not advisabl and shuold not even talked about any more.

Thanks
With regards
VELAYUDHAN

Capt Sharma said...

As there can be no fresh water lake in an ocean, similarly defence personel drawn from same civilian community at large are not and can't be expected to be above board. Barring a few in the same ratio as that of manifested consciousness in Indian community at large, rest need to be put under the watchful eye of Lokpal as even PM is not excluded. Excluding defence is not in best intrest of nation at large and the defence personel in particular.

Cavalier black berret said...

Lokpal is an arm to deal with corruption.Corruption is corruption wheter it is done wearing OG or Khaki or Khadi.Corrupt soldier is a more dangerous weapon against the nation than a corrupt civilian and hence keeping armed forces out of its ambit is certainly a retrograde move and enough reason for those involved in it to celebrate.Who knows being an exsoldier Anna Hazare might have got the idea of lokpal by seeing those corrupt brasses in OG. BY Cavalier the black berret

Anonymous said...

Yes defence services should be brought under Lokpal.

Vasundhra said...

LOKPAL for the AFs is the need of the times, not because the AFs have become the cradle of corruption but they have been made to look like one by the vested interests. How come a Boy of fifteen years plus when he joins the profession of ARMS be corrupt. Never heard of in any Army where 'CORRUPTION" is the part of 'TRG' syllabus & Indian AFs is no different.Corruption in the AFs is an imported 'VIRUS' at every layer of Command when Uniform under Army Act per force comes in contact with Civvies who are not under AFs Act. CIVILIANs are the carriers of CORRUPTION & to checkmate them there is an urgent need of LOKPAL. HISTORICALLY it has been established that all those involved, under AFs Act are punished & all in Civvies are not even investigated because the ultimate gainers are those who set the rules & make laws ie POLITICIANS & Babus. Presently all existing machinery has failed to bring these scrupulous elements to justice, Institution of LOKPAL is bound to give flexibility & elbow space to whistle Blower in uniform to chase such elements.Taking out AFs from the 'GAMBIT' is not for any love for us but to protect themselves, so that loot can be continued with impunity.

rajesh said...

i feel in the long term interests of our institution, we should have proper accountability and transparency. Which can be best ensured by the checks and balances offered by Lok Pal Bill. If we are true to our profession, we should not hesitate to be under any sort of scrutiny. After all we are the army of OUR nation

Anonymous said...

Arm forces must be put under the Lokpal. It must be transparent.

Kaps said...

Anybody who thinks AF have been kept outside the ambit of LOKPAL because of status of "Holy Cow", must be day dreaming. AF are not Holy Cow, but Cash Cow. How can one stop milking a cash cow?

Jokes apart, I think rather than LOKPAL, along with the Forces Acts, more teeth should be given to AFTs so that implementation of verdicts happens. Since we are living in times when war is a distant reality, we can't continue thinking that war times will not visit us. During such times, will Lokpal be a constructive or intrusive agency for day to day operations? Any decision must be taken only after satisfactorily answering such questions.

Brigadier V Mahalingam said...

Corruption is an evil irrespective of which section or institution of our country is affected. Armed Forces cannot be an exception. More so because we in the Armed Forces are responsible to lead our men into battle, where, if necessary we may have to call upon a soldier to lay down his life. The question is, will a soldier willingly obey a commander who is corrupt or who cannot be trusted? Events in recent times which include corruption, nepotism, patronage by politicians in the matter of promotions, appointments etc of senior officers and ranks prove beyond doubt that the Armed Forces are no exception to temptations of money, position and such goodies of comfort and career advancement. Yes, the operational aspects of the Military need to be kept out of the ambit of Lok Pal so long as it doesn’t involve a member of the Armed Forces sabotaging national interests for financial or other personal interests.

Ramesh HT said...

Armed forces too should be brought under the purview of Lokpal Bill.

Anonymous said...

Yes certainly issue of Lokpal is a good move toward curbing corruption but if some one feels that corruption shall vanish momment lokpal bill is enacted well than he needs to visit a psychatric. Undoubtedly corruption in armed forces has increased many folds primarily due to senior officers who want to become millinores before retirement but dismiss a jawan for over stay of leave to exhibit their staight forwardness. We got to take stock of situation internally without thrusting another head who and his members shall be from same indian society. So let us not create further muddle by voluntaring to come under lokpal it shall not serve the intended purpose.

Anonymous said...

Nowadays armed forces personnel are not less than politicians.
including forces as part of lokpal will ensure equality of previlages and services to all cadres atleast to some extent

rajeev kumar said...

i seongly believe that AF shouls not come under lokpal . instead the internal mechanism of AF should be made strong to deal with any corruption issue effectively . there are examples already .

AF are ultimate saviour of nation , if we see them with suspicion then to whom we believe .

seeing every body with suspicion is not correct policy .

if they are fighting on borders we have full confidence in them other wise what is gurantee that they will not abondon their post for a bribe from enemy .

so even there is some corruption or some black sheeps remain unpunished let us keep our AFs away frrom dirty politics .

Anonymous said...

Dear Major Navdeep,
Nothing could have been worse for the Armed Forces. Any organisation that is shrouded in opacity and secrecy, depends critically on the integrity of individuals that populate it. Hierarchical and pyramidical structure, together with non accountability will breed utter contempt for honesty. Dangerous times ahead. More openness, Glasmost is the requirement.
Atsnavy

faujidoc said...

@ Brig Mahalingam ..' will a soldier obey a commander he knows to be corrupt?'... perhaps the root of the rot in India vis a vis other countries is the unquestioning way in which the ordinary man in the street obeys leaders, even when he knows them to be corrupt! Our attitude seems to be 'So what if X is corrupt / a rapist/ criminal ... I will benefit/ not be singled out for trouble ... so let X carry on his way and I will carry on in my way!' This feudal way of thinking needs to stop. We need to look critically at all people in authority and need to make sure that they are doing their jobs, whether they are politicians, IAS, CO saab or Company Cdr. The day my jawan gets up and asks WHY is this thing which is entitled to me not available.. what have YOU done about it?... that will be the day I will feel accountable... and perhaps we will all hesitate before commiting acts we know to be wrong!

So, my vote for greater accountablity and let's be under the Lokpal .. after all if we are honest, what do we have to fear?

Anonymous said...

Sir,
1. I strongly support bringing armed forces under LOKPAL. Almost all senior officers are living as a guest of indian army, in many case their personal house hold expenses are also being born by the state.

2. Many Seniors never pay mess bills and guest room charges. Senior ladies throw tantrums and spend govt/regtl money for their whim and fancies as their personal money and treat regtl fund and their wallet without any questions asked. Audit of money spent for giving gifts to senior ladies and senior officers and so called family welfare meets need to be checked and audited.

3. Most corrupted organization in the entire MOD is regional CDAs and so called IFAs and their rep, who take percentage in passing each and every bill from suppliers.

3. There is an urgent need to bring these people under LOKPAl specially senior officers who are living on the land and CDA Babus...

Anonymous said...

It is a simple issue really.

Have a uniform justice system for all people whether civilian or military. Scrap the Army Act. Dont have soft measures for a civilian and harsh measures for a Fauji.

Dont pretend to exempt Fauj from lokpal when u have such draconian laws already in place to deal even with petty misdemeanors of Faujis.

Dont have an MoD which has no accountability to the million jawans that serve the country and expect the powerless and toothless military officers to take the bullets in their butt as well as the responsibility for morale, casuallties, injuries and all negatives that go with running a Fauj.
What does a JS(Army) do to deserve the perks and power he enjoys. Apart from making regular trips to foreign countries on some pretext or other, they have no contribution except for VETO power over the Army recommendations.

Unless the MoD civilians, Defence PSUs, DRDO, DGQA establishments, Ordnance Factories, MES etc are done away the Fauj will continue to have a tarnished future.
Give ur wife a blunt knife and expect her to have the meal ready on time and u will get hell for it. But give the Army substandard rations, shoddy combat clothing, boots that belong to the 19th century, weapong that are unreliable, ordnance that is cleared thro MoD pressure and expect the US equipped Pakis and ever progressive Chinese to be kept at bay...great!!

wait for your retirement and countdown to the next Pay Comm

Col NR Kurup said...

In my Corps EME, we use a term 'manufacturing defect'. There seems to be some manufacturing defect with service officers that they do not learn even by experience. We refuse to realise that whenever the civilian Babus get any hold us they push us down to the bottom exploiting such opportunities.

With this state of mind all that we can do is not give the babus any such opportunities. Yes, Lokpal, RTI etc is essential in Defence Forces. This can be used effectively if the judges of these forums have any knowledge of style of functioning of defence forces. Even in procurement of items where time is utmost factor we may not be able to follow the civilian system of accounting fully. A lot of discretion has to be used. The investigation agencies who have no knowledge on this can blame us for not following strictly the civil system of accounting and the paid media high light it in wrong way,to make us loose face and our respect. Even in the Ministry of Defence the decisions are taken by Babus. It is the civilian Babu who decided the Statutory complaint of Gen VK Singh on his DOB issue.The DM has just conveyed the decision. I don't think he has any clue of Army system where the General sign his DOB in every ACRs, existing of Army list etc. We all know exactly the manipulation part. We know the motive. We know hoe our PM kept quite when an MP reported of prospective COAS's son marrying a Pak national etc., etc.

In short, unless the govt formulate Rules to ensure that decision on matters concerning Defence Forces will be dealt by only uniformed persons and the political head or Preident come in only at the final decision making, we just cannot open any avenue paving way for civilian Babus to sit over us. To start with let the Defence Ministry be fully combatanised. We will come to Lokpal etc later.

PBOR said...

At the very start, why Lokpal (for services or otherwise)? We have may acts and rules to deal with corruption. Why one more agency to add miseries to our life. It is true that corruption is a menace that must be uprooted, but what is corruption. Nothing, but just difference of definitions. Y m rejecting this concept at the first place, To understand this we need to look in to the mindsets of its leaders with just 2 of may examples:-
1. Its an NGO driven moment led by Ms. Bedi, Mr. Kejriwal and Sisodiyaa. All three of them run NGOs and are megsaysay awarad winners. World Band and Ford foundation fund these NGOs thereby movement. This movement seems to be running on world bank agenda.
2. Now about Mr. Hazare. In April Anna was fasting at Delhi's Jantar Mantar for his Jan Lok Pal. "Why don't you fight the election and enter Parliament to promote your anti-corruption agenda?" the media asked him. In his response which was telecast live, he declared that he couldn't win elections because voters barter their votes for a bottle of liquor or money. Calling our elected reps. Chor, gaddar is next. This gives an idea about his thoughts for democracy.
Why i repeated above 2 well known facts. Coz these facts frightens me as democracy fan. Coz m not seeing it limited to corruption. To me it’s beyond corruption. It about (to my mind):-
1. The world DAROGA finding it hard to struck a deal in India as successfully he did it in Pak. He dosnt know whom to deal. Madam or Sir, RSS or LKA, Maya or mulayaam, Mamta or leftist. Thereby, they need a centerlised and absolute center of power to deal with. And who could be a better instrument than the ppl of such mindset as mentioned above. In fact this team and their supporters are from a particular section of society. Those thought that they are born to rule. But this democracy turned it around. So, this aggrieved lot is being used to fullest.
2. Many interviews with close associates and village mates of Anna indicate dat he is an authoritarian. His views on flogging of drinkers and abusing elected reps and calling voers ‘Bikau’ shows his disrespect to democracy. Therefore, we need to be watchfull. Else be ready to be Pak. Stronger the bill shorter our country would take to become Pak.
Its for all of us to think if we would like to reside in an India, Anna Hazare is threatening to build?

Anonymous said...

The need for creation of the post of CDS has been amply mulled over in the past and later swept under the carpet. Let there be a CDS and he be also empowered at par with the Lokpal on civil side to handle similar issues within the armed forces. Of course, Army / Navy / Air Force Acts are strong enough to tackle most of the matters for their respective staff. Still, there should not be any harm in having yet another layer to act as a Military Watchdog or Military Ombudsman. Alternatively, armed forces must be brought under the ambit of LOKPAL. A Military Wing staffed by serving and retired military officers of various ranks with impeccable service record should be created as part of the Lokpal Body to advise Lokpal in regard to all military related matters referred to Lokpal. Some retired judges, serving / retired military officers from JAG branch and few persons of eminence may also be taken to staff the Military Wing of Lokpal. Afterall, idea is to clamp down corruption from whole of the nation and therefore none (defence or civil) to enjoy immunity to be able to cause corruption in any form.

Anonymous said...

I strongly recommend that AFs shud be brought under the ambit of Lokpal. Even RTI filed to elicit response from Army Units is not effective. The RTI org in Army flawed. The Appellate auth usually also happens to be the IO of the PIO!!! at least till Div/Area level and below. How can one expect Appellate auth to take disc action against PIO for making allegations against the applicant when it is universally known how IOs are kept in the pocket!!

Anonymous said...

Armed forces must have adequate external checks like CAG, Lokpal, etc. Else, they may get off the correct path and enter into wrong acts / transactions. A lot of financial prudency is required for utilisation of Sadbhavna, S&S Imprest and MI Funds. We must have external checks for maintaining the internal health of the Army

TK said...

I am vis the blog for the first time. I have gone through the comments on armed forces and Lokpal.
Due to Armed Forces method of working and service requirements Lokpal as proposed might not be the best structure to check corruption therein.
In the early part someone has very well brought out the problems of meeting deadlines for procurement of stores for events like visits, war
games, functions etc, and quandary of managers (both Commanders and staff officers) to not bend/bypass/break the rules and yet to hit the given time line fully prepared.
If the armed forces are not expected to perform to hit the target every time as in civil departments of govt, the armed forces could be very well brought under Lokpal as it is with no skin off anyone's nose.
But if the armed forces are to continue to be mission/task oriented it will handicap them in not a little way. They will have to think of ways and means of applying the present Lokpal methods to check corruption after due modifications. It's application will have to be strictly managed within the armed forces and civilian element will have to come in at the very end of the process.
This however will/should NOT include the MoD civ services like mes, cda,DEO, DRDO etc. Remember though the Armed forces are not a part of the Govt, these services are a part of the central Govt services.

Harry said...

Let there be a Lokpal for AFs as well. Bearing in mind the specialised job of the AFs, it may be well be structured as a body comprising of Servicemembers and Jurists (like AFTs) of unimpeachable integrity, with adequate safeguards in place. It will only lead to more transparency and accountability within the Org and help in checking corruption.

PS: AFs personnel are not infallible, only the extent and levels may vary vis a vis civs.

Synapse said...

Infact army should be under greater scrutiny because:-

--- The Army Act has not been able to check corruption.

--- I an organisation playing an important and sensitive roll as National Security, corruption is the last thing one would want. A strong bill such as Lokpal is essential.

-- The myth that the integrity of Senior Army offrs is impeccable -- has been proven wrong so very often.

-- Army has already has Audit Free provisions in field areas and we all know what happens.

-- If army is not brought under lokpal, the day is not far when army will be the most corrupt organisation.

--- How checking corruption be harmful for national security.

medical specialist said...

yes army does need lokpal too...but perheps it should be for services only where purchase of equipment / rations / medicines occur. The ambit of arms and security related purchases and actual fighting force should be away from it...most importantly ECHS needs lokpal....i feel pain when i see tons of money wasted since there is no audit which is in place for ECHS. pvt hospital generate bills in air sometimes..

Anonymous said...

IMHO appointments dealing with procurement in ASC, AOC, AMC as also all agencies handling Capital procurement must come under the ambit of Lokpal. It is also a must to bring DRDO and MES (the two biggest bottomless pits) under Lokpal.

We however must not allow jurisdiction over operational and intelligence related matters.

Anonymous said...

CDA can certainly be brought under Lokpal. CDA and MES have refined "bribe" into an art form.

Lt Col(Retd) R S Dasila said...

@ Medical Specialist is absolutely right. I was referred for endscopy to Maharaja Agarsen Hosp from ECHS. They charged Rs 2700/- whereas they charge
Rs 2200/- to others. When i enquired they said, Rs 500/- to be paid to ECHS.

Anonymous said...

AFs are not holy cow.....there have been plethora of corruption cases in recent past. We ought to be within the ambit of Lokpal.

Had lokpal been in place, then Shri Avdesh Prakash(Ex Lt Gen) would not have been able to promote his wet canteen contractor Mr Dilip Aggarwal with impunity.

Why shouldnt MES, procurement of rations, clothing, exp on public funds, BRTFs etc be outside lokpal

Anonymous said...

Usually Citizen's Charter should not have been applicable to AFs with its patent high ethos, morals and timeliness.
But sadly the decadence & subjugation of the Officer Cadre per se has led to overall fall in grace for the AFs.
Yesterday, I was horrified, when watching "Kya Yehi Sach Hai" (a movie abt IPS); due to stark similarity and
sheer mirroring of circumstances. Recently a serving (re-employed) officer suggested that to get a choice posting one only has to offer a bottle of BLU LABEL in MS Br!!!

LT.COL.HS DHAM( MAHARS ) said...

THERE SHOULD BE A SEPARATE AND STRICT MECHANISM AKIN TO LOK PAL FOR ARMED FORCES.THE CIVIL SIDE HAS WAYS AND MEANS TO SAVE THEIR SKIN BY POLITICAL BARGAINING WHEREAS ARMED FORCES HAVE NON.90% PEOPLE SITTING IN PARLIAMENT HAVE SOME CASE OR OTHER AGAINST THEM BUT VERY FEW ARE BEHIND BARS EVEN BUREAUCRATS ARE ABLE TO CALL THEIR SHOTS.THE NEEDFUL SHOULD BE ACHIEVED WITHOUT INTERFERING IN EACH OTHERS DOMAIN.OTHERWISE WE WILL BECOME CIVIL ARMED FORCES AND NOT INDIAN ARMED FORCES

Anonymous said...

ieCan Law under Lokpal act faster than the Army Act ?There are enough provisions in Army Act to administer fast justice in all cases including corruption.Lokpal is necessary for people not under army act.

Accts Sat Paul Mittal School said...

Dear Major,

A very Happy New Year to You, Your family and all the readers on this blog.

Armed forces should also be under LOKPAL.

In any case it should not be out of the preview of LOKPAL.

Rajeev Behal
Ex-Sgt
Indian Air Force

Anonymous said...

The Armed forces should have been included in it. The last sentinel cannot be allowed to be left to its own devices. It would empower the soldier and bring down corruption which very much exists in the Army specially at the officer level as they only have access and powers to spend the public/regimental funds.

Rajax said...

Absolutely no Lokpal for Defence Forces. Defence Secrets and Issues are too large for average civilians to even comprehend. Civilians and news teams led by teenagers have made a hash out of Sukhna, Mumbai Towers, Chief's Age, Ration Authorisation v/s availability, CSD and URCs etc.... It takes an utter lack of understanding of basics and confusing non related issues and only civilians who know nothing about Fauj and have a vague mental picture of "what fauj should be?", can manage to create such confusion. Media, news outlets and civilians thrive on created and manufactured news and have no responsibility any longer. A foot soldier on the other hand knows when to keep his mouth shut. Even our CAG has no idea about Fauj. They blame the Army for non procurement of Guns, Ammo, Helicopters, Vehicles everything. What Fauj requires is a CDS and NO RPT NO civilian interference.

Anonymous said...

one should not see LOKPAL as ghost. Afterall it will be run by the human being having leg, arms, eyes, ears and tongue. After some time it will also do the same thing as being done by our five sense organs.

If the govt/armed forces bosses are really serious then they must streamline the system in armed forces. The role of MES must be checked in the first instance because it is the most honest corrupt organisation.

saran said...

Are we the naivest people on earth? this grand standing of being the upholders of highest levels of probity and morality is what has brought us down to such levels, vis-a vis our counterparts in all other fields. for once guys, learn to be smart, the only damn thing that works for us is the "emotional connect" with the people of the country. we get hounded and degraded at all levels, we are kept out of every important decision making process. most even don't consider as part of the govt machinery. we ourselves bandy about the good reasons why civil and military should not mix too much at all levels. are we not already looking over our shoulders even now, before we do anything worthwhile and in the best interest of the organisation? are we not already under immense pressure when we are in sensitive appointments, by both forces internal and external to the organisation? come on folks, donot preach and put ourselves on a non-existent pedestal. If we are not included in the lokpal mayhem.. thank god for small mercies... we already have our peers and seniors breathing down our necks to pull us down. we do not need another authority to walk into our lives to further erode our sense of pride. we have lost all sense of uppity (which a soldier needs to have), we have been decreed to rot in anonymity.. let us atleast do wat we do, at least with some modicum of izzat. I do not care for one more babu (with immense powers) to hound me on anything else. Be smart people!!

Anonymous said...

There is no doubt that in the last couple of years, cases of corrupt practices in the Armed Forces have increased manifold and have tarnished the transparent image of all those who are in active Military Service today as well as the Veterans.The shameful act of the offenders should definitely be curbed but in no case
with the force-entry of LOKPAL BILL into Military Services.
MILITARY and CIVIL are two opposite words.We have lot many Acts,Orders,Instructions etc. in the Armed Forces.These are very strong weapons in the hands of our Military Administrators and more than adequate to counter all types of odds within our houses!Otherwise too,interference/involvement of any Civilian Institution in Military Activities, may not be safe in consideration with the National Security and should strictly be kept away with.
Unfortunately,in the last 64+ years of our independence we have failed miserably in 'Character Building' of the people of this country and there lies the problem!
We have seen a good number of cases where the Law Makers have become the Law Breakers, thus creating a lot of hue and cry in the society.
LOKPAL BILL,once introduced in its entirety, to eradicate corruption from the Civil Society,bound to fetch favorable results and its Shadow Effect will invariably be there in 'Military Society' also.

Anonymous said...

In the recent past corruption is institutionalized even in armed forces. If anyone denies, either he is a true soldier (my kudos to him, however rare species he may be) or plain blind. If Lokpal is a movement of people against corruption, I guess, there should be no exceptions.

POKY said...

DEFINITELY - YES

Anonymous said...

Without any doubt we all should be under the ambit of Lokpal...at least those deptts having to intract and deal with contractor including MES,GREF supplies ,procurements of all types, canteen services etc why should such deptts whose activities have got nothing to do with miltary and operational matters be given such a imunity... its high time the army only takes up the issue with central govt and offers itself for inclusion ..i think it will do a lot of good to all of us..

anmol said...

Without any doubt we all should be under the ambit of Lokpal...at least those deptts having to intract and deal with contractor including MES,GREF supplies ,procurements of all types, canteen services etc why should such deptts whose activities have got nothing to do with miltary and operational matters be given such a imunity... its high time the army only takes up the issue with central govt and offers itself for inclusion ..i think it will do a lot of good to all of us..

Anonymous said...

Armed Forces MUST come under Lokpal. It is a sad step to not do so...

Anonymous said...

MASS CAMPAIGN AGAINST CORRUPTION HAS EMERGED DUE TO FAILURES AND LOOPHOLES IN THE EXISTING SYSTEM HENCE THERE WAS A NEED TO BRING IN THE LOKPAL.ITS HIGH TIME WE STOP TREATING THE ARMED FORCES AS A HOLY COW UNDER THE COVER OF MORALE ETC. IF THE MORALE WAS OF SO IMPORTANCE THEN WHY WAS SUCH A DISPARITY CREATED IN THE SIXTH PAY COMMISSION...WHICH WAS ALSO A PLANNED WAY OF DEGRADING THE RANKS... COULD BE AVOIDED DUE TO STIFF RESISTANCE AND INITIATIVE TAKEN BY NAVY CHIEF.ARMED FORCES SHOULD BE BROUGHT UNDER LOKPAL AS IT ALREADY BEING INVESTIGATED BY CBI FOR SCAMS LIKE ADARSH, SUKHNA, LIQUOR , CSD , CONTRACTS , ETC

Anonymous said...

Lok Pal with limited exposure in case of contract through bidding or tender process may be applicable to Armed forces. except in this field ,It is not possible to behave like so called civilineucrats.all other matters relating to armed forces are either confidential or security related . obviously we need to have leadership free to take decisions like FM maneckshaw. we cannot afford one civilian dictating us our job.

Mrityunjay said...

Hi Maj Navdeep, Spoke to you once and am still looking fwd for direction atleast in my case wherein i lost 20 months of seniority (8+12) on being given PC in 2nd consideration. Now what will be the implication of the current order in my case. Secondly i want to challenge this loss of seniority in court. Can you please guide me in this case. Loss of seniority inspite of giving my choice as PC if not PC then Extn at my first option wherein i was given extn of 6 months on adm grnds alonwith 21 coursmates and then after 6 months few were given PC and 16 of us were given extn.
Do guide me plz contemplating of filing a stat complaint.
Waiting. bye