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Wednesday, April 7, 2010

MNS Officers entitled to service privileges of regular officers : AFT

In a well reasoned decision, the Hon’ble Principal Bench of the AFT has held that MNS officers are also commissioned officers and are authorised to the privileges of their respective ranks.

The decision comes in the backdrop of the refusal of authorities to allow a Major General of the MNS from sporting stars and flying a flag on her official car.

The order has settled the controversy once and for all, but the issue makes one wonder as to why were stars and flags refused to such officers in the first place ? When an officer is holding a particular military rank, then it makes no sense to deny the ceremonial ancillaries of the same. It is the rank that is entitled to such privileges and not the service or the person who is wearing that uniform. When there is no bar on sporting the ‘stars’ on the collars, then in my humble opinion there should be no reason as to why a bar should exist on sporting the same very stars on the car !.

63 comments:

JB Singh said...

Very correct.
Now-a-days there is a peculiar mindset in the army where one particular rank cluster denies privileges to junior rank clusters and one service to the others. It is very subtle - you will recognize it only if you look very closely. For instance - the issue of CGHS grade pay for AMC officers - with the cited reason that the hierarchical structure will be disturbed. This was a fall-out of that. And it has been rightly reversed. Either the General Officer rank should not be given to MNS, if it is - it should be with all the bells and whistles.

Anonymous said...

That is some good news would like to know if a copy of the ruling is available and is there also news regarding PB4 for Nursing Officers

Anonymous said...

There are problems in this decision. What about the relative seniority?

Anonymous said...

MNS officers of Defence Forces are very very competent and are the backbone of medical treatment in MH and BHs apart from AMC Doctors and Nursing/Medical assistants. Its good that once and for all this paradox of whether to salute or to give the MNS officers their due is laid to rest. AFT is really a blessing for such fast good decisions.
PB4 should also be authorised to LtCols of MNS, just as the DACP should also be implemented for all AMC DOCTORS, as is already implemented for ALL Central Govt Doctors, after Presidential sanction.

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Anony at 9.03

Yes, what about it ?

What has seniority anyway to do with stars on the car ?

If the system is so much worried about seniority then don't promote them to two star rank, keep them on one star but once a two-star rank has been granted, how can the related privileges be refused ?

Since we don't have the adequate say in improving our status and seniority vis-a-vis civilian staff, we start attacking the status of our own. Sad !

Anonymous said...

The issue is, that either they shouldnt have granted MajGen rank to the MNS officers in the first place. Once they have, they shouldnt reduce the dignity of the rank by pulling silly stunts like this.

Ex_AMC_doc said...

The controversy on the stars and flags on the car was needlessly created by an ex-DG on his personal whims. It was never logical and was humiliating to a cadre of officers who work in very trying circumstances.
Working in a corporate hospital, now I realize that our MNS officers are one of the biggest assets of the AMC. In civil, the best nurses (who by the way are not half as good as the MNS) leave for US/UK/Gulf etc. The quality of the remaining ones is pathetic. They end up being people who just relay to the doctor what the patient is saying. No assessment of their own, no attempts to use their initiative etc.
For those who might not be aware, In the US army, MNS officers can hold executive posts including that of Commanding officer of a hospital or that equivalent of DDMS/MG Med at Command. I.e. they are commanding officers of doctors.
There is NO LOGIC in people saying that they should not have been granted the rank of Maj Gen. They have the same qualifications (Graduation and that too BSc nursing is 4 yrs), service profile (posting in Leh, north east etc) as regular officers (at least regular lady officers of other arms). And they work with NO holidays (other than their once in 10 days off) and in an atmosphere where they are often treated as second grade officers. I think this is incorrect.

Anonymous said...

Good to see Maj Navdeep defending the just need for MNS officers, they actually deserve.
But Maj Navdeep pl also think about AMC Doctors also,albeit very occasionally. Why is there a delay in implementing DACP for AMC to restore parity with Civilian Central Govt Doctors, when borrowing from your connotation only ..."Since we don't have the adequate say in improving our status and seniority vis-a-vis civilian staff, we start attacking the status of our own "..
Please write an article updating or advising AMC Doctors for their just demand of DACP.Posting Maj Navdeeps article on 15 Dec 2008:
..."Many readers may not know, a new career progression system known as the Dynamic Assured Career Progression Scheme (DACP) has already been implemented for all Medical / Dental Doctors appointed under the Central Govt.
Under this scheme, following shall be the career progression structure for General Duty Doctors appointed under any Ministry / Department of the Central Govt"...

http://www.indianmilitary.info/2008/12/while-some-wait-doctors-can-rejoice.html


http://www.mohfw.nic.in/DACP(SAG)2.pdf

http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/PC/PC6/RBE_5_09.pdf

Anonymous said...

Not only should DACP be allowed for Military doctors, but full parity should be demanded for ALL service officers, vis a vis civil services. When you consider that CS officers have started reaching JS rank at 16 years of service, why should a JS be equivalent to MajGen in pay and precedence any more? They are more closely (in terms of their work profile, and in terms of their service length), equatable with Full Colonels.

We should junk this stupid AVS report, and start having Majors become a selection rank (DS/Director equiv @GP8700) at 9 yrs service, Lt Cols command Bns again (@GP8900), after 14 yrs service, and become full colonels (JS Equiv, GP 10000) at 18 years service.

We are turning into an African/South American army, with myriad LtCols in a bn, dozens of Majors, and god knows what else. Let this comedy end, and let each rank be given the respect, pay, and status that it is due.

And let us also make sure that our JCOs etc are correctly equated with police ranks, in that Sub = Inspector, Hav= ASI, NbSub = SI, and SubMaj = DSP Group B. This is already a standing equation, and it is important that we maintain it.

Anonymous said...

AFT has rightfully given justice to MNS. Maj Navdeep hits the nail on its head "...we start attacking the status of our own. Sad !" indeed very sad.

kailash said...

... nice indeed. Here's a radical thought.... train them like a regular offr... ofcourse with the same impetus as dr in the army are trained and let them be regular cadre. As is it is, there is hardly any difference in terms of work that the ladies in beige put in other than the color they wear. why turn a blind eye.... lets accept them as one of 'ours'. i am sure they would turn out to be as capable as others in OG. And yes... no seperate law/ section needed in AA/AR.... am i right Maj navedeep.
regards

faujidoc said...

So, yet another one of Gen VK's arbitary decisions has been reversed! But what about the rest of his whacky ideas?

> No DACP required for AMC!
> Reduction of number of conferences an AMC doctor can attend in a year to just one!
> Doing away with reimbursement of conference fees
> Reduction in number of study leave vacancies
> Change in MNS uniform from OG to beige
> Driving in a rift between the services which has'nt healed to this day!
> Allowing SOC for vital equipment to be submitted just once a year instead of round the year thereby almost totally paralysing procurement
> Not to mention the overt nepotism (his son was given two training assignments abroad followed by a specially created super specialization seat and has been posted to Delhi for years) and the spoilt ACR's of anyone who dared to protest!

Who will reform a system which is warped at every stage?

Do we have to approach the AFT everytime some nutcase like VK treads on our rights and privileges?

God save us from the red tabbed!

sanjivgrover said...

TOI dt 02 Apr quoted the Supreme Court telling the govt 'not to treat armymen like beggars'! Don't we remember only too well how army finally got its PB4; yet the implementation was partial- sort of PB4*. Now the DACP for army doctors which already stands implemented for central govt docs. The villian this time maynot be the govt babus but the non-AMC ones. First the defence loses its own precedence vis-a-vis the babus and then it dishes out the same treatment within - denying the comparative due - when it concerns the non-fighting arms like the AMC.

Anonymous said...

The very fact that someone was silly enough to think of denying them this is absolutely shameful. As an organisation how was this issue allowed to go to the AFT. It is clear that people who resisted this previlege are devoid of basic commonsense and should be taken to task

Anonymous said...

After reading all the comments I can say WE ARE EXCELLENT AT CUTTING OUR OWN FEET

Anonymous said...

I was seriously injured in an aircraft accident and spend months in a Command Hospital. It was the period when their OG uniform being changed in to the present khakhi. I must say that when all aound things were going bad they still took good care of us! They are the ture professionals, who never allow other matters to affect their work.

During 6th PC when the Chiefs were playing one man up ship to pull down the MNS. This Corps still cared for the armed forces personnel. Compare this with the near mutiny we had in Air Force in 1997, after the 5th PC.

It is very sad that we dragged them in to such a controvercy. They must be given all their dues including OG uniform. If Docs have a probelem with that, let the MNS Offrs working in wards continue with the same khakhi dress.

Lt Col Kanta said...

Thank you very much Navdeep. This is great news, to up lift our sagging morale !! what about PB-4 MNS Lt Col.

Do you think that we will be 'left unarmed' by the enemy missiles and bombs just because the Pay Commission said 'MNS Officers not primarily meant for combat duties'.

Are we any less affected by the enemy action than the other personnel including the AMC doctors who are working beside us?

Wg Cdr George said...

The Pakistan's half of the MNS was made a Corps (re-named to Armed Forces Nursing Service - AFNS) of the regular Pakistan Army way back in 1967.

Most of the Countries now have Nursing Corps in some form (commissioned Nurses). Instead of trying to develop them to our benefit (Medical Services), we were trying to strip them of even the little honur they had!

This is a good decision by AFT. Thanks to Navdeep to keep us posted.

Thinking Doc said...

Why do we want to have an all Officer Corps? The MNS was the first service of Indian Army in which women were allowed (1886 all women Army Nursing Service was set up and made in to a regular force - MNS in 1927).

Let us have women PBORs in Army. The best service to start that is MNS. Why not to select female nurses as JCOs? In Civil 'Staff Nurses' start at GP - 4600 i.e. eq to Sub. So status is comparable.

Let us reduce the number of Commissioned Officers Nurses and have more of JCOs.

Were is the gender equality in Nursing Services? Why not to allow the men also to become Commissioned Officer Nurses?

It is the norm in world over http://www.nurseweek.com/5min/anthony.asp

GREF Officer said...

Interesting to see how some of the readers in this blog support MNS demand for parity when in reality they are overpaid as Nurses since the equivalent nurse jobs in Civil Side are JCO / NCO equivalents. I agree with one thing though that once a rank is given it should be accorded the same respect and honor. The question is should the officer ranks be given to all Nurses?

The same readers though have no qualms denying their GREF brethren serving side by side in the border areas under the same army act in same conditions in uniform (albeit khaki)the parity in terms of pay and status. What an irony!

Yogi said...

Essential point to be deabted is the need or otherwise of putting `ranks' on medics. in my view the Army needs to have only limited number of uniformed doctors, that is, Lt/Capt posted as RMO and Specialist Maj/Lt Col posted at Field Hospitals (earstwhile Field Ambulance). In addition we may have a couple of Col/Brig/Maj Gen to hold administrative appoitments as CO of Field Hospitala and staff at Corps/Command/AHQ. Why not have doctors and staff at static military hospitals from TA or on contract, that is civilian spuerspecialists coming for six months to five years.

doctor_apollo_retdAMC said...

thinking doc is right most of nurses in corporate hospital are paid 6000 to 15000 and superintendent technical is getting 25000 to 30000 and the main head nurse gets 35000 max. while in army a Ltol nurse offr gets 50000... so its a good pay.... and well they are the fine lot . there work is phenomenally good.. i saw both sides in civil and in army so know,

but perheps having a JCO nurse which was the concept in our time and it went with the name of LOCAL nurse. they had less pay and no promotions and no transfers . but that system is out not since there were no takers!!! no one joined so it was withdrawn entirely in 6th pay comission if i am right.

Harry said...

@ Maj Navdeep

Sir
why was my voice muzzled, if I may ask? I don't think my language was unparliamentary or offensive!
Yes, truth is bitter we all know but I never expected you (of all the people) to take offense at what I wrote. Tell me am I wrong?

Anonymous said...

Good to see for a change instead of backbiting, we all agreeing that MNS officers got what they duly deserved albeit after approaching AFT, thats the only sad part.
DACP implementation for Armed Forces Doctors is one longstanding just demand, duly sanctioned by PRESIDENT of India, is left to be implemented.
Hope DACP for AMC will also see the light of the day soon.

Anonymous said...

hello maj navdeep,
i would like to suggest that mns should be murge with amc.as the lady DGMS(mns) can not take decesion in favor of mns officer as they are defending thier seat and promotions.lady officer do night duties for 12 hours in 15 days and got only two dayoff and they not get all benifis which amc doctors getting. the principal metrons do only buttering to comandats of the hospitials they can not thinks welfare of the lady officers they are doings night duty at age 50 plus.even the night duties come after one month

Anonymous said...

@faujidoc:

Dont you mean, "god save you from the dull-cherry tabbed"? Sorry, couldnt resist! ;)

Nurses should defo wear OG again! And there is no reason in the world why Army docs cant have DACP, while retaining their regular ranks.

It will build the case any way for equating Cols across the board with Jt Secys, as should be done, considering that these days, any Tom, Dick, or Hari who took the IAS exam even in 1994 (joining date, 1995), is in PB4, GP 10000!

LtCols should be in STS-II, PB-GP-8900, and all the way down, Majors should be DS/Director grade.

DACP for docs is the first step towards parity for ALL!

Harry said...

@ Maj Navdeep

Sir,

Pls see the same thing which u blocked, in the link below

http://goodnewz.in/Blog2/?p=101


PS:- I hope the point is NOW driven Home, nice and loud!

Manoj said...

MNS so called Members of Military Nersing Service are not Commissioned Officers because they are not commissioned by the President of India. Her Excellency is not pleased to confer the commission to the Members of Nursing Service whereas she is pleased to confer the commission a regalar army officer & PBOR. Therefore Army officers and PBOR are governed by AA and AR whereas MNS Officers are not governed by AR or AA. Accordingly they are not entitled to certain privileges. If they become entitled to all privilege her excellency need to be pleased to confer the commission to them at par with other pers of Armed forces & accordingly they come under AA and AR.
Manoj

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Manoj

Have you read the judgement and the applicable laws on the subject ? I would highly recommend reading the same before you make sweeping statements which have no basis in the book.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the information. Indeed it is a reasoned judgement, which was over due by many years. Hope the controversy dies down. However, still some lessons are required for few specialy the gentleman talking about AA, AR and Parchment certificates by President.

It would be great if authenticated copy of judgement is embeded here ob the blog.

Maj Divya said...

April 8, 2010 11:09 AM

"Manoj said...
MNS so called Members of Military Nersing Service are not Commissioned Officers because they are not commissioned by the President of India."

The first step in implimenting the AFT's order is educating the "Manojes" of the Army. Thanks Navdeep, it was ahood reply.

Anonymous said...

Anyone who supports this decision has no idea how a hospital works.Who gives the orders doctor or nurse? who decides what surgery to do doctor or nurse? who writes prescription and who administers medicine?
So what will happen in our rank conscious services if the medical officer is junior to ward sister? Will this medical officer first salute her and then order her?
Will the surgeon take permission from OT matron before starting surgery?

Anonymous said...

In continuation with above grant them all privilges but maintain seniority for proper functioning of the hospitals

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@My friends

Seniority and professionalism vis-a-vis stars on the car : both are two different issues altogether. As far as status is concerned, the Grade Pay within the org determines the same and AMC officers of similar rank have an edge at that. However when you are promoting a person as a Brig or a Maj Gen, the stars come along with the rank, or don't they ?

Thinking-doc said...

April 7, 2010 10:36 PM
@doctor_apollo_retdAMC

Hi you have miss quoted me. What I meant was, even in other Central Govt Services, the Nurses pay is very good; with a starting pay for 'Staff Nurse' on PB-II with GP 4600. Which is equal to the minimum scales for a post requiring an Engineering or Law Degree. (Logical - Registered Nurse = 10+2+[3 1/2 GNM or 4 BSc + 6 months/ 1 yrs intern]). Their starting pay comes to about Rs 27,000 + HRA. Is this pay bad? Infact in a state like Kerala, the Govt. Doctors draw less at starting.

A fresh Army Doc – AMC Capt draws much more than his Civilian counter part – Capt GP 6100 + 12% higher fixation + 6000 MSP + NPA (approx 9000 higher at starting), where as in Civil an Asst Civil Surg gets – GP 5400 + NPA only (no MSP + Higher fixation + 6100 GP). Please accept that in the Defence, the starting pay of a Doctor or Nurse is higher than the Civil.

When it comes to private Sector, there is no lower or upper limit. You will find fresh MBBS graduates working for Rs 5,000 per month. So it is pointless to discuss what the private sector offers.

Regarding the Nurse JCO concept: There was never any women JCO in MNS. As per the Section - 5 of the MNS Ordinance, 1943. The force can have only Commissioned Ranks. What you are talking about is the MNS (Local). This was introduced when the regular MNS Officers were not permitted to marry. The MNS (Local) were given the rank of Lt. And were permitted to marry. It's relevance was lost when everyone was permitted to marry.

What I am suggesting is a radical makeover of the Nursing Services:

1. Make Nursing Services - MNS (in whatever name) a corps of the regular Army (like AMC, ADC etc.).

2. Have qualified Women as well as Male Commissioned Officer Nurses (graduate - BSc-N / MSc-N), to perform the Nursing as well as the supervisory/ managerial duties.

3. Have PBORs - JCOs (registered nurses - Diploma) both women as well as men to do the Nursing duties.

This concept is in vogue in the US (Army Nurse Corps), UK (QARANC), Australia (ANC), Malaysia (ANS), Thailand (ANC) etc.

Thank You

Anonymous said...

To HARRY, Sir, I hope you have read the disclaimer when we post our comments :-

Leaving a comment on this blog-post is not a guarantee of it being published.

Comments would be strictly moderated and those with personal or generalised slants and harsh language would not be published.

You are requested to bear with the comment editors since the process is subjective and not always under the direct supervision of Maj Navdeep Singh.

Comments with proper identification are encouraged rather than anonymous posts.

Thank You.

---------------


So Harry Dear, The prerogative should be left with the 'competent authority' sometimes. Many times the author of a comment cannot see what another can see in it. My comments are not published at times, but I never contest it. Part of the game Sir. Maybe Navdeep is also not there all the time to monitor the publishing of all comments, he has to look after the rights of us sahbka faujees you see. Now Navdeep Sir if you read this, please do not fail to publish this. Nothing personal.

Lt. Reshma said...

@Anonymous said...
Anyone who supports this decision has no idea how a hospital works.

Let me assure you sir, the 'Nurses' are meant to work beside the Doctor, not under him. You seem to relate everything with the Command and Control aspect. Both professions are unique, both can not do each others job (unless linenced / registered under both IMC Act, 1956 and INC Act, 1947) Please understand both have a mutually fullfilling role.

Find out how the US Army Medical Services fuctions? Where Nurses routinely becomes Commanding Officers of Military Hospitals and Medical Commands! Even a Commanding Officer Nurse can not prescribe medicines. And at the same way even the DGMS (Army) can not do a registered nurses job. It will be illegal under INC Act,1947.

In IAF routinely Navigators fly with Pilots who are junior in rank and seniority. But still the Captain of the aircraft decides the aircrafts course and is the authority in Command. There are no problems there.

I am sure even the Maj Gen Nurse will be happy to work with a Capt Doctor, if he is knowledgeable.

Ex_AMC_doc said...

I think Lt Reshma and thinking doc are absolutely right.
The concept of "command over the nurse" is somehow fixated in the minds of many. The navigator / pilot analogy brought about by Lt Reshma is very apt. No matter what the seniority of the nurse, decisions regarding patient care are finally taken by the doctor (in consultation with the nurse, who often provides valuable inputs - after all she spends more time with the patient and the patient's family). The doctor is ultimately answerable regarding medical decisions.

@ thinking doc

I would suggest that we go a step further and get girls/boys after 10 + 2, select them after a proper SSB and make them undergo BSc nursing (4 yr course + internship) and commission them as officers of the regular army with necessary basic military training (as for AMC offrs).
As someone who has spent all his career in the military hospitals, I fully sympathize with the plight of the MNS. They are treated as second rate officers.
It is not that they are any less intelligent or dedicated. It is just a question of opportunity.
If a graduate can become a regular woman officer, what prevents another graduate (BSc nursing) from becoming one if she fulfills QRs of an officer (SSB etc)?

Anonymous said...

DEar navdeep,
but why the Nursing assistant not getting the same status as he is doing much more then so glorified MNS,s of ind forces... he is suffering from JCOs and MNS who all are bossing... where as he is who goes to actual battlefield to pick the casualties... what is your take on our Nursing assistants????

Anonymous said...

Dear Maj Navdeep
On similar lines that all the privileges and benefits of a rank should be allowed in totality to the person holding it.
The retirement age of Gp Capt select and Gp capt TS are 52 and 54 respectively where as no such different ranks exist in rank structure, its only one rank Gp Capt with GP 8700. Can this differential in retirement age be challenged in AFT/ court?

the Old-Colonel said...

@Ex_AMC_doc & Lt. Reshma and others

There is no SSB interview for armed forces ‘commissioned rank’ Doctors, Dentists and Nurses (Medical Personnel), world over. The Geneva Convention of 1949 granted the Medical Personnel ‘Non-combatant’ status (Geneva Conventions Protocol I, 8 June 1977, Art 43.2).
The commissioned rank was traditionally being given to them as a mark of respect to their noble profession - Florence Nightingale. In India, the foundations of our armed forces was laid by the British, after independence, we just continued with their traditions/ customs (also supported by statutory law) in granting commissions to the medical personnel without subjecting them to SSB interview.
India is a signatory of the Geneva Conventions; and its articles assign the Non-combatant status to the medical personnel. It should automatically apply to our commissioned ranked doctors, dentists and nurses as well. As they are Non-combatants, why unnecessarily subject them to the SSB interview.
The Officer Like Qualities tested through the SSB interview are a must have in the personality (mental build-up) of combatant Officers of the armed forces, not otherwise. The commissioned doctors, dentists and nurses are just need to conduct themselves well in the armed forces. A couple of weeks of concentrated ‘general service knowledge, service customs, bare essentials of military law and table manners’ that’s all which is taught to them, and it has proved adequate all these years. May be such orders of the AFT will help to clear a lot of haze layers.
Instead of subjecting them to SSB interview, we just need to groom them as better a professional, that is the only thing which is going to do good for the armed forces. Why do we have so many Doctors occupying the administrative positions? In the US Army they have a separate cadre to run the Medical Services (not AMC-NT type, more like the MBAs running Corporate Hospitals). If we can develop such a professional cadre to run the Medical facilities, we will be able to release hundreds of valuable man power (doctors) presently doing nothing but desk jobs.
The more a doctor, dentist and nurse think about their ‘Commissioned Rank and Officer Status’ or the more one concerned about being Officer Like, the less he / she is likely to care for the patient. Be a good professional, do good to the people and care for them; the respect will come to you, no matter what rank you hold or what colour of uniform you wear!

Jai Hind

Harry said...

@ The Old Colonel

Sir,

I fully endorse your views and couldn't have put it any better!

But will things change? I'm quite Skeptical about it. We are generally slaves of 'Precedent' and 'Status Quo'! Innovativeness and out-of-box thinking to set right the wrongs plaguing the SYSTEM, are things which are Alien to us. And this malaise runs across all 'Sarkari Mehakmas'!

Ex_AMC_doc said...

@ the old colonel

Sir, I agree with you completely. SSB is currently not required and should not be required for doctors /dentists and nurses.
I had suggested SSB for potential nurses (when recruited after 10+2) if being considered for commissioning as regular officers as I thought that the other option (taking them in without SSB) would be considered too radical by many.
But personally I too would give SSB a go by for doctors/nurses/dentists.
I could not agree with you more that healthcare professionals need to concentrate more on the "professional care" rather than be obsessed with OLQs.
Unfortunately many senior AMC and non AMC officers seem obsessed with "OLQ and service etiquettes". I am sure you too might have encountered complaints like "the medical specialist (Major) did not stand up and salute when I (Colonel) entered his chamber".

Anonymous said...

Implementation of DACP for AMC Doctors. Any suggestion by anybody as how it can be implemented. Presidential sanction already there, and already implemented for ALL Central Govt Doctors, and even Civilian Doctors working in DGAFMS cadre?

doubty said...

Navdeep Sir, Please clarify: -

Refer Para 2.3.13 of 6th CPC report, the Commission recommended that, "status of the Defence Forces officers would be determined by the grade pay attached to their post as is the case with civilians". However read MoD resolution accepting 6th CPC report with modifications [Gazette of India, dated 30 Aug 08, Para 1(xi), page 21], that is "Grade pay to determine seniority of posts only within a cadres hierarchy and not between various cadres."

I understand that, the Grade Pay of an Officer determines seniority within a Cadre (eg. between Officers of AMC) not between Cadres (eg. AMC vs ADC / MNS etc.). Otherwise those Officers of Lt Col rank attached to DRDO, Civil establishments etc., who are drawing a Grade Pay of Rs 7,600 (in PB-3), would be junior to Lt Cols from all other Cadres (excl. MNS cadre) who are drawing a GP 8000.

Now, read the above with Para 733 (b) of the Defence Service Regulations(DSR), "women officers serving in the Army Medical Corps and officers in the Military Nursing Service will rank equally with male officers of the same titular rank".

From all of the above, am I correct in assuming the following?

"Irrespective of the GP [being lower(ed)], the seniority of ‘Officers of MNS Cadre’ vis-à-vis ‘Officers of other Cadres of same titular rank’ is to be based on ‘date of substantive rank, date of commission etc’., not based on the GRADE PAY attached to a rank".

sunny said...

I am in total agreement with the people who oppose the decesion of the AFT. Their were numerious instances which led to the higher ups change the uniform of the Nursing officer. While posted to a place where all shared a common mess, one MNS had the audicity to bring her OR husband in a party ment for officers.
Secondly compare the work load of a nursing assistant (NA) and MNS. The NA is equally qualified to do the same work or even better than a MNS. He also has to give night duty like a GD after his work. But see the salary comparision of both.
Its high time we wake up for our jawans and not people who are un soldierly and demanding

Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh said...

@Sunny

By that logic, even a regular commissioned officer should not bring his wife to the offrs' mess if she happens to be employed at a post below Group A/ Class-I on the civil side. Or if she happens to be a school teacher (Group-C) !

MNS officers have their separate officers' mess by the way. And I think the case you are quoting may be a freak example and not one of routine.

Let us get out of this mindset. There are pros and cons to everything.

Anonymous said...

@ex AMC Doc
i think ther should be no chair in med spl room. 100 senior officer enter a OPD. if each time a officer enter in opd, med spl stand for welcoming him, most of the opd timie will be wasted in sitting standing.

Anonymous said...

@old colonel
dear sir
you are very wrong in saying medical officers in armed forces as non combatants. they are eqully combatant as their infantary counterparts. the difference remains in fact that their job profile is different altogether. they have an equally imp role in winninng battles.
Also you have still not realised the fact that doctors and medical facilities in armed forces are one of the india's finest.
There are still few lacunas in our system and i hope they will be mended soon.
medical officers are commisioned in forces through two channels- 1. through AFMC 2. direct entry
A MO from AFMC undergoes same entrance test as for NDA less physical test. he is a medical cadet, and undergoes more or less traning as in any other military academy. he passes his MBBS as in NDA bachelor degree is given.
then his POP is carried out. here i will like to mention few achievment like 1st cadet to command a parade is from AFMC, 1st lady cadet to command a parade is from AFMC.
now if a MO comes directly to armed forces, he has to appear for a interview at DG's office and if selected he is in. now they undergo a course called MOBC, which is on similar lines as of YO's. doctors are getting enough battle inoculated, as other arms officer. while i was in CI i realised that geneva convention is here only on papers, and most of our enemies are illeterate. A mine will not recognise red cross symbol nor a bullet will ask me if i am a doctor. geneva convention applies only in a air conditioned room, which our policy makers have denied leaving.
Sir you must realise there is a requirement of a doctor among troops who is like them and understands them better. can a civilian do this job? so plz understand medical officers are not non combatants and capable of qulifying any SSB. they are equally soldier as you are/were.
that too without quitting professionalism. Please stop degrading their importance if possible.
however i do agree with you that administrative jobs should be left for MBA's and MBBS should be spared for where it belongs.
Please give MNS officers their due respect. i dont understand what is the problem in that. let there be SSB for them. any one who can do so well that army accepting him as a professional will do well to get through SSB too. it will do only good for organisation.
Jai Hind

Major Surender said...

Why cant we treat all officers as officers only? Why do we need to create separate messes for the MNS officers?

AMC-doc said...

@ Maj Surender

A hangover from the British times. The Indian Army Nursing Service was set up in 1886, initially had only white women, they used to stay in Officers Mess of regular Officers. Then 1n 1919 onwards, the Indian's were given Kings Commission (KCIOs), till then Indian's were granted only Viceroy's Commissioned Officer (VCO)- after independence we designated them as JCOs.

When, the KCIOs started staying in the Officers Messes, the British felt a need to construct Separate Officers Messes for the majority White Women force. They were the only Women in Indian Armed Forces till the end of WW-II. After independence we started recruiting women doctors in AMC.

A seperate MNS officers mess is constructed only in case the straength is more, otherwise they stay in AMC messes. Those who are posted to IAF and Navy invariably stays in the Officers messes (unless aseparate mess is constructed).

The entilement of floor space and facilities are exactly the same as compared to other officers messes.

May be this is the time we do away with separate messes for them.

Anonymous said...

@ AMC_doc
yes very right
merging two messes will definitely help in solving man power crisis in AMC messes besides heping in solving differences between docs and sisters

Anonymous said...

yes after a long discussion we came to know that ther is difrence in the recruitment policy .govt should change this policy and update because there are many people are sitting without job so one should think about the educated one. why army need lady mns offrs why cant male nurse it means the offrs are using them some where for their own purpose

doc_to_retire said...

Of course DACP needs to be implemented in AMC.The following steps required:Please note,the AV Singh Committee and Bagga Commission have cut the leg space of AMC(as copmared to other arms & services) and 6th CPC is chopping the head room(if compared to cicilian central govt doctors)

1.Comissioned doctors should become majors after 2 years of joining(to equate to the earlier 6 yrs ante date seniority)

2.After 13 yrs completion,there should be a substantive time scale promotion to Colonel for all and a board should be conducted only for brigadier 1t 18 yrs.(like earlier Lt Col was substantive time scale in AMC whereas,in all other arms it was a selection grade only,many infantarians used to go home as majors only).This will provide enough head room for those who go up in the hierarchy.Those who will be left out can retire at 20 years or re employed as SAG cadre senior medical officers/specialists, as a civilian entity.Those who don't want to hang their uniform,may continue

2. Qualified nurses (male&female both) can continue as regular army officers as lieutnants and further promotions till Maj Gen

3. Nursing Assistants should be given a suitable diploma at retirement on retirement which will benefit them after retirement.

This is a suggestion of radical change,if implemented will benefit everybody

Anonymous said...

AMC your wishist for DACP is gr8, Only thing is that , its futile now to talk abt DACP, since I believe its been REJECTED.

doc_to_retire said...

@anonymous...Nothing is futile at no point of time, nothing is permanently rejected.Representing facts is always healthy a practice,people must keep things in mind while representing in the next pay commission,which is not far away..2016.

One thing still surprises me,why nobody in AV Singh Committee and Bagga Commission did any good to AMC.Why didn't anybody from AMC represent facts.

Pre Bagga Commission and Pre AV Singh Committee, the youngest Lt Cols were from AMC.

Post implementation of this event,the situation is oldest full Cols are from AMC inthe entire army.

No doubt our brother officers from other arms and services got good career progression,its a welcome decission for the entire cadre of army officers which in turn is the largest cadre of officers in the nation,but facts is, upliftment of AMC officers' status was not intended for some god forbidden cause.

And since the DACP has been denied again for God forbidden causes to AMC officers,it may have a drastic effect in coming years.

Doctors join the armed forces for purely the love of uniform and to work in an excellently co-ordinated system.The infrastructure is marvelous, the integration among dental corps,medical corps and the nursing services is just emaculate.

Since the civil medical opportunity of becoming a specialist has been doubled,and DNB has come up doubly to boost the moral of doctors aspiring to become specialist and work culture in civil govt posts has become even better,question arises now, "WHY WOULD A QUALIFIED DOCTOR JOIN A SERVICE WHICH DENIES CAREER PROGRESSION DESPITE BEING PART OF THE SAME CENTRAL GOVERNMENT"?
When as a fresh graduate I joined as a medical officer,my uncle who was a surgeon of 12yrs service in state govt,was drawing pay less pay than me and was enjoying the status of a class 2 gadgeted officer. So I was happy to join army for my class 1 status and better pay and a better infrastructure.

But now since things have changed in civil for better, trends should have been changed in army too.

I speculate, new doctors NOT knowing this fact may join short service as a medical officer,but nobody will be that willing to continue in army for life.

It won't be surprising if ministry of defence,central govt and Army have to re-think on these matters,of career progression of doctors in Army

Anonymous said...

Doc to Retire: a very very well written article. Even though DACP is rejected but your solace is good and heart warming. Lets hope that someone thinks like you and fight for rightful implementation of DACP for AMC, even if it is rejected for the timebeing.

vijay kumar singh said...

To avoid confusion in future and dilution in officers standards AF should recruit Nurses as PBOR like in paramilitary forces

Anonymous said...

instead of listening to medical officers it will be better to take decisions after listening to patients whom mns officers are taking care round the clock

LT JYOTHI said...

rule over nurses by docs is like rule over india by britishers ,india got independence .so docs pls change your mind set .stop fighting and blamming and lets work together under your guidance and our care.let us make our nation proud of our servces.JAI HIND

cdt Isha said...

very correct Lt Jyothi.. jai hind

Anonymous said...

Dear sir
I am from military nursing service, i would like to request that pl help us in changing our working hours pattern. Right now every nursing officer faces problems in their married life because of irregualr pattern of working hours. Though army as given the privilages regarding split of annual leave and casual leave, but principal matrons always denies and never give leaves. As per their adm there is shortage of manpower. There is always shortage of manpower will exist then how welfare can be met. Pl help us. Thanks

rashmi burman said...

Dear sir
I am a nursing officer,felt good after reading your blog.thanks for supporting and understanding MNS officers,but sir we are not getting respect from our AMC staff.salute is different thing they r not even wishing us,so what is the use of giving us stars,if we r not getting respect from even a sepoi.We are working day and night for the welfare of health of army persons and their family,but getting disrespect.
i completed only one year of service and started feeling that why this organization is so partial to us.
please sir its a kind request to do something for MNS organization,so we also feel proud not neglected from Indian army.