Comments on Indian Military : Service Benefits and Issues: AUTOMATIC E- PAY / EMOLUMENTS / ARREARS CALCULATO...

hi navdeep.. good job.. another query.what is the ...

2009-01-04T10:49:47.707+05:30

hi navdeep.. good job.. another query.
what is the status of flying pay. In the previous pay comission it was called flying PAY and it was taxable. In the sixth pay comission they called it flying ALLOWANCE and did not give us any arrears. However for the purpose of calculating income tax, they are including the flying pay in th etotal income. Any GYAN on this anomaly?

initially due to only media entiir nation came to ...

2008-12-19T16:18:54.919+05:30

initially due to only media entiir nation came to know how defence forces have been neglected by so called vi pay comission ,comitte was set up .It seems comitte has gone to the garbage and same media has kept quiet.There is a need and request to media again take up the issue as such no one comming to join defence forces .Generals may be retired or searving will not stand by you ,because they are looking for governors post.

in the recent payslip the basic pay, grade pay, ms...

2008-11-09T20:58:52.997+05:30

in the recent payslip the basic pay, grade pay, msp and DA has been credited as per new scales. however, allowances has not been modified. does anybody have a idea how long will it take. also, there is lot of confusion about the travel entitlements during leave for officers. can anybody throw some light on it.

WHAT V R GETTING FROM 6 CPC IS PEANUTS . SO SIMPLE...

2008-10-16T23:29:05.194+05:30

WHAT V R GETTING FROM 6 CPC IS PEANUTS . SO SIMPLE IF U OFFER PEANUTS THEN U OUGHT TO GET MONKEYS ONLY . NOT OFFICERS. SATISH

For all of those who are blogging without the know...

2008-10-09T04:08:44.663+05:30

For all of those who are blogging without the knowledge of actual beginning of the warrant of precedence in India. Point to be noted is that while it was by No of years for Civil Officers, Military equivlence was by Rank .

Warrant of Precedence as it exists today owes its origins in the Royal Warrant by which by which Precedence was regulated in British India, dated 10th September 1850. Civil Servants (East India Company ) had been divided under the Queens Warrant, into six classes according to date and their standings. Following is the extract from page 60 & 70 of the book “ PEERAGE, BARONETAGE, AND KNIGHTAGE, GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND, FOR 1860, INCLUDING ALL THE TITLED CLASSES.” By Robert P Dod, Esq, Associate of King's College, London. Published by Whittaker and Co, Ave Maria Lane, MDCCCLX. Gilbert and Rivington, Printers, St Johns Square ; 1860 :--

Rule 29. Civilians of the 1st , i.e. of 35 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Maj Generals.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to seniority, which is computed amongst the civilians form the date of there entering the class to which they belong and amongst the military officers from the date of their commissions.

30.Civilians of the 2nd class i.e. of 20 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival, and Colonels.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.

34.Civilians of the 3rd class , i.e. of 12 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Lt Col.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.

35.Civilians of the 4th class , i.e. of 8 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Majors.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.

36.Civilians of the 5th class , i.e. of 4 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Captains.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.

37. Civilians of the 6th class , i.e. of under 4 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.

I am sure that no body wants to see the list of Ar...

2008-09-19T23:39:59.476+05:30

I am sure that no body wants to see the list of Army offrs on this public blog site who have been court martialed for the (mis)doings in MES. The fact is that MES has become a dumping ground for incompetent, superceded and re-employed offrs, who have no place in their own Regts. MES, as an organisation gets maligned due to sheer incompetence of such offrs, who thrive on the shoulders and at the cost of their MES counterparts. If you got guts, tell the E-in-C to create two Zonal CEs, one completely manned by Army offrs (from CE to AGE level incl all staff appointments) and combatant JEs, whereas the other Zone completely manned by MES offrs/JEs. Let the performance of these two zones be evaluated by a team of indep Army Cdrs/Corp Cdrs. The entire Army will come to know of the truth.
Do you have it in you to accept the challenge?

Dear MES Bhakta,Please forget that Engrs officers...

2008-09-16T21:27:22.792+05:30

Dear MES Bhakta,Please forget that Engrs officers are craving for 50percent deputation,dear they are there to make sure that you are not selling the country,Remember One Lt Col GE of Ahmadnagar ensured that civilian CWE and Chief Engineer were posted out and sacked by Army cdr,Please ask people they prefer Army GE than Civilian GE,These MES SEs are worried that Army officers are obstructing their free ways,Can you cite one example where civilian SE has voiced against cooruption? nil nil ,shame on these corrupt people.I sincerely request President of India to Abolish civil cadre and make 100% military organisation,

Sir,The sixth pay commission also shows parity in ...

2008-09-16T15:43:13.883+05:30

Sir,

The sixth pay commission also shows parity in fixing pay of PBOR again. A newly recruited jawan will get a basic pay of Rs 5200 while a Naik and a Havildar will get the same Basic pay with grade pay of Rs 2000,2400 and 2800 respectively. The same way the JCOs were fixed basic pay of 9300 with grade pay of Rs 4200, 4600 and 4800 for Nb sub, Sub and Sub Maj respectively. In this way a Gp Y Sub of 28 years service with seven increments will get total emoluments ie 7790 x 1.86 = 14489 + 4600 + 2000 (msp) = 21089/-. Increase in the basic pay is Rs 9300 - 6600 = Rs 2700/- only. (increase is 40.90 %) Where as a newly commissioned Lieutenant will get a pay of Rs 15600 + 5400 (Grade pay) + 6000 (MSP) = 27000/-. (Increase is 89.10 %. Almost doubled) Earlier the basic pay difference between a Sub and a Lieutenant was 1650/-. Now the difference increased in four folds. This is unjustifiable. Higher level officers are still comparing with their civilian counter parts. But no one is going to see this diiference as men in green are mouth closed and hand tied and are only to obey orders.
Will any one look into this matter ?

Unfortunately this discussion is going haywire. Wi...

2008-09-12T17:27:18.080+05:30

Unfortunately this discussion is going haywire. With due courtesy to Lt Gen Ashok Joshi, I am posting an article by him which attempts to put the matter in its correct perspective.
On a cold and dark night somewhere high up in Ladakh, a group of officers and jawans were huddled together in a tent that was made livable by a stove. The mood was a mix of anxiety and humiliation. The Chinese had dealt a few decisive blows and unilaterally withdrawn, leaving India almost despondent. The prime minister downwards everyone was occupied with thoughts about why this ignominy had come to us and what could be done about it.

In this gloom, the conversation over rum was not about old times and old-timers, as is normally the case when a former commanding officer is on a visit to his unit. The senior war veteran present, a subedar -- he had seen it all, from Alexandria in Egypt [Images] to Sangro in Italy [Images], with the Eighth Army during World War II -- asked of his old commanding officer: "Sahib, when we lost at Panipat to Abdali, bad as it was, at least it was a tough fight in which everyone was there, the prime-minister's brother and son downwards. The highest in the land led in the battle from the front and all of them perished but they did not quit. Even then the battle was lost. What would happen now if the Chinese come at us again? Will any of the children or grandchildren of the ministers join the armed forces and fight?" If such a question were to be raised today, what would be the answer?

The question has already been answered unequivocally by two generations since the early 1960s. With few exceptions, youth of capability have turned away from the armed forces and opted for other vocations. Their cost-benefit-analysis gave a clear indication to them that a career in the armed forces was not for them. The armed forces, as a vocation has consistently lost its sheen since 1947. At one time, the sons of two chiefs of the Indian Army [Images] served in the armed forces; so did the scions of Baroda, Jaipur [Images], and Kapurthala royal families. They did so with pride and without asking for any special consideration. They looked upon the armed forces as a matter of pride and honour and satisfied some of their own inner needs and longing to maintain the tradition. In turn, they brought prestige to the armed forces.

Does it sound medieval? Actually, it is, but so is the idea of fighting and dying in battle. Most of the present decision makers in India, within the establishment, whether they are the elected politicians in power, or the bureaucrats who are their key aides, or the members of the judiciary, live in a world far removed from actual prosecution of war and have no real feel or experience to get into the shoes of a professional soldier. The armed forces expect much of individuals who serve in them, and their families.

On the other hand, maintaining the armed forces demands a great deal of the nation in terms of the opportunity costs. No nation in the world has such surfeit of resources that it can afford to incur opportunity costs without qualms. The armed forces fully deliver only when they 'deter' the adversary from battles because even victories are accompanied by irreversible losses, particularly of life. The cost and consequences of lost battles and wars, of course, are beyond recall. Some time in the future, the effectiveness and the efficiency of the armed forces may prove to be one of the main determinants of national survival with honour. There are national stakes in the effectiveness of the armed forces.

It is for this reason that they make claims on being a national institution. Constitutionally, don't they report to the President of the Union? Apparently there appears to be inadequate comprehension of the real issues involved in raising, equipping and governing the armed forces. This is not uncommon in democracies, even amongst mature democracies. The compulsions of electoral politics often prove overwhelming, apart from the ideological baggage and prejudices. But the advanced democracies have the monetary resources including the advanced technologies; and more importantly, they have the tradition of their decision makers fighting in battles and wars extending over several hundred years. Their knowledge of war and peace is not academic. In India, there is an unfortunate belief that good arguments will prevail. They may not. Even 'truth' does not always 'prevail'.

The armed forces, in their own way, are an 'anachronism' when it comes to their unique value-system in which loyalty, courage, effectiveness, and continued defiance, even when there is no hope, matter more than the values of 'civil society'. Bereft of this value-system, and its concomitants -- an exaggerated sense of self-esteem that makes a person think that he is irreplaceable, a belief that Lord God will back him, and so on -- the armed forces may render themselves less than useful.

The decision and opinion makers too need to help the professional soldiery so that it can protect its elan. Surely, elan is not a commodity. But it cannot be the attribute of those who are made to feel second class because they cannot maintain the lifestyle that their peers do, or their children cannot go to the right schools. Money and prestige do enter the calculus somewhere. To be told that the more intelligent have to have far more because they passed the right competitive examinations does not help much.

The military machine depends a great deal on technology and its products but its most critical cogs are human which, if substandard, can cause the system to collapse. Who mans this unique national institution cannot be determined by market forces alone.

Elementary, is it not? Then how come, we in India seem to be losing our focus over past 60 years? Look at the quality of debate over the deal given to the armed forces by the Sixth Pay Commission? The letter written by the three service chiefs to the defence minister towards the end of August, asking that the decision by the government be put on hold pending consideration of the recommendations made by them has caused some sensation. At least one national daily took notice of the letter, and handed down a rebuke to the service chiefs. How are the services concerned with equivalence? Why have they shown the temerity even to compare themselves with the IAS? What's the fuss about?

It seems that the chiefs of staffs were exercised by one particular dispensation of the government on a matter that had been referred by it to the committee of secretaries at the instance of the ministry of defence. Precise details are of no general interest except that a deliberate decision seems to have been taken by the government to disturb the equivalence between the armed services, and the rest, to the detriment and disadvantage of the former. The officers in the armed services feel either that they have been brought down a peg or two in relation to their former peers, or the others have been hoisted above them. The result is the same. The officers of the armed services have been overtaken for reasons not known to them. Let us presume that there are very good reasons for the government decision. But those reasons are not known. Is it the public perception that the armed services must gracefully accept what they are 'granted'? Come on, they have a code of conduct: 'theirs not to question why'. What's the fuss about? They proudly wear the uniform. Isn't that enough? Is that the message for the soldiery that public opinion has, or is it the view of a small coterie?

But what is the rationale of decision making? Of course, the rationale has been stated by the Pay Commission, you silly. But what are the assumptions made? What has been the experience of those who made the assumptions? Was there a single member in the Pay Commission who had actual combat experience? Did the Pay Commission appoint a panel of consultants who had the combat experience?

With the kind of non-violent struggle that secured for India its independence, there were visions of India relying on the police forces for maintaining the law and order, and making do with the very minimum of the armed forces. No nation could do without them because they were an essential trapping of an independent sovereign State. They would, of course, mainly be employed by and for the United Nations to maintain peace.

Some of the idealism started evaporating as early as October 1947 when troops had to be airlifted to Srinagar [Images] to stop in their tracks the murderous tribes sent there by Pakistan. But for this timely intervention, the Kashmir valley might have been an integral part of Pakistan. The Chinese aggression from 1960 onwards brought about some reorientation in thinking but there remained lurking doubts about them mainly on account of happenings in Pakistan. Was it not important to ensure that the armed forces did not damage the polity? They needed to be kept in their place. Therefore, the basic outlook did not undergo a serious change.

The two fundamental tenets that guided the decision makers in India seem to have been:

Every rupee saved by cutting down on 'unproductive' expenditure on armed forces was for the national good.
The armed forces needed to be controlled and kept in their place by subordinating them to 'civilian control'. This in effect has meant control by the civilian bureaucracy because except when war is imminent, the actual decision makers have little time for professional soldiery.
Even now the scope of the current debate is narrow: it has been reduced to scoring of debating points by the advocates of the armed forces, and their opponents. The debate is missing out on more substantive issues. In any case, what has to be decided now cannot be postponed indefinitely. Will the service chiefs be satisfied with just another consideration by the government? The immediate problem has to be addressed: the hemorrhaging of the armed forces by early exit of disenchanted or disappointed persons has to be staunched. But that would nowhere be enough.

We in India need to move ahead at this stage, and seriously question what has been taken for granted for last six decades. But would that be enough to meet the national requirements? Or, do we require a separate pay-commission for the armed forces? We may have to go further than that. There may be a need for addressing the whole gamut of raising, equipping, manning, and governing the armed forces so that their effectiveness as a national institution is assured till, say 2040. The nation must know who will bear arms for it, and why; the market forces are poor arbiters in this matter, although gods as of now seem to have taken up their residence in the market place.

Here is a rather sad quote from Rudyard Kipling's Epitaphs of the War, 1914-18:

If any question why we died,

Tell them, because our fathers lied.

Will we deserve something better?

Lieutenant General Ashok Joshi (retired) is a former Director General of Military Training, Indian Army.

By seeing the level of discussion and frame of min...

2008-09-11T23:53:41.976+05:30

By seeing the level of discussion and frame of mind of Service Officers, they themselves are to be blamed for the down gradation of status. Afterall, status is not a thing to be demanded but it has to be earned.

Dear Anonymous Sept 7Oh Oh MES is a money earning ...

2008-09-11T23:49:34.063+05:30

Dear Anonymous Sept 7
Oh Oh MES is a money earning service that is why all Engineer Officers of Army are craving for deputation to MES and occupy 50% of MES posts.. They are also preparing same inflated estimate (as per your view 10 times) and at the same time claiming honesty.. wow.. what a logic... my foot.

My Dear Coward friend,who does not have spunks to ...

2008-09-11T21:32:37.471+05:30

My Dear Coward friend,who does not have spunks to even reveal his/her identity talking about the status of lt col.Lt col is not only from engrs/eme/ASC,they are from Infantry, also,during war when Enemies come,these cutting edge saves the nationwithout bothering their lives,no one is asking Parity,since you are having guilt,inferiority complex ,you can not achieve our respect,you are talking bullshit,Please come and see our life at LOC/siachen/ci ops,I am sure you will not go for even toilet,sitting in AC rooms talking about Parity,During war,thousands of soldiers die on the order of these warriors,on your order even your peon will slap you,we dont want superiority,but don't degrade us
LT COL J B Singh

Dear anonymus fropm MES (Money Earning Service) wh...

2008-09-07T10:09:09.677+05:30

Dear anonymus fropm MES (Money Earning Service) who are you fooling around with. You want to tell us that armed forces are currupt. we do boards of officers and you price it TEN times higher than actual cost!! There needs to be an independent inquiry into all the work services provided by MES. Honesty and MES ..... MY Foot.

Dear Arjun,In civil services cadres posts at every...

2008-08-31T08:28:08.723+05:30

Dear Arjun,
In civil services cadres posts at every level are fixed and these can only be changed by the authority of a cadre review. There are certain minimum time limits are prescribed at every level for promotion to next higher level. Doing service at lower level for the minimum period does not ensure the promotion to higher level in the absence of clear vacancy. Then one has to earn very good ACRs also to be considered by DPCs.In army it is not the case where everyone who has completed 13 years of service and passed certain exams will be promoted to the rank of Lt Col.Beyond Lt Col other higher ranks have fixed vacancies hence the stagnation/frustration at Lt Col level.Govt would probably give the status at par with a director but creation of maching posts on civil side is impossible.
So please try for fixed posts at every level in army in order to have more realistic and satisfying cadre reviews.

Issue of Lt Col being time scale without any DPC/w...

2008-08-30T21:43:45.138+05:30

Issue of Lt Col being time scale without any DPC/weeding process. If I am not wrong an Army Officer QUALIFIES for "time scale" promotion to Lt Col IF AND ONLY IF the officer has successfully passed his Young Officer Course, Part B and D promotion exams. I also like the analogy of IAS Jt Secy's being "time scale".

I would have been surprised if the importance of I...

2008-08-29T21:43:29.773+05:30

I would have been surprised if the importance of IAS was not highlighted by the VI pay commission. Why only VI pay commission, all pay commissions have been 'of the IAS, by the IAS and for the IAS'. No pay commission had ever fooled soldiers more than the VI pay commission. A country that does not respect its soldiers, let alone fool them is doomed to fail as a nation state. But who in IAS cares! They are too busy in self serving and the spineless generals of ours are vying with each other to serve them as well.

ToAnonymous, Aug 22, 10:33 PMWhy Army Officers are...

2008-08-28T17:51:42.251+05:30

To
Anonymous, Aug 22, 10:33 PM
Why Army Officers are equating themselves with the IAS Officers?? If so much is the grudge against them, then why they have not opted IAS?? The importance of IAS has been clearly highlighted by various pay commissions especially sixth PC due to which they are placed some increments ahead from the starting in comaparison with other services and there cadre is well managed that is why they are getting promoted to higher grade in a time bound manner. It should also not be forgotten that all the policies are being made and cleared by IAS Officers.

Army Officers should not forget that they are also...

2008-08-27T22:37:49.823+05:30

Army Officers should not forget that they are also under control of Ministry of Defence (Headed by a Civilian IAS Officer) and they should refrain from making such an absurd remarks, it is like abusing your own father?? Can Army Officers fight with Ministry of Defence???

Dear Bala,You seem to have lost balance of mind in...

2008-08-26T21:32:01.190+05:30

Dear Bala,
You seem to have lost balance of mind in stressful condition which is not good as army officer. Army officers are supposed to be in balanced state in utmost stresses otherwise how he will fight for the country. For god sake stop showing your irritation by using wrong words

well said anonymous (7.45 PM 25 Aug)...If the govt...

2008-08-26T11:02:59.806+05:30

well said anonymous (7.45 PM 25 Aug)...

If the govt doesn't give us our due, we will show these buggers their right place. As such we hold all important appointments and make them come to us for all petty requirements. In the coming times we will slowly reduce them to insignificant force (Anyways they were never significant) and we hold the key after AVSC and soon after AVSC II we will have more and more senior appointments with us. These directors were at par with Lt Cols, will remain at par with Lt Cols. We will not allow them gain higher status even after pay commission.

I am surprised to note such type of unhealthy disc...

2008-08-25T23:50:18.855+05:30

I am surprised to note such type of unhealthy discussions. The Armed forces are armed forces and no doubt it is great and nobody can equate itself with armed forces. They should be provided with all the extra perks and facilities commensurate with their dedication towards protecting their nation so that they are not attracted to come on deputation to DRDO, MES, GREF etc. There is no meaning of discussing equivalency as it is quite evident as declared by Ministry of Defence and Govt of India and nobody can change it. The Army Officers know there real equivalency very well when they visit Ministry of Defence.

Shabash navdeep my sher congratulation for giving ...

2008-08-25T07:45:33.484+05:30

Shabash navdeep my sher congratulation for giving fitting reply to these cowards of mes,cda,gref.who are they to ask parity? It is our greatness that we are equating lt col with se. what they will do if we equate our lt with se. afterall we are doing great service to nation by serving in defence service where these so called brilliant chaps refused to serve and ran towards upsc . if these cowards do not quiet now we will throw these persons out. We have prepared fully ourselves for this. In first stage we have stopped all recruits in their industrial category and in coming times all industrial staff will be out. Simultaneously we have reduced their jes and clerks in the name of cml to 50% while we have kept intact our jcos and ncos to 100% this will ensure their ouster in coming times. Now these cowards se are left we will ensure their ouster by two pronged strategy first nip them in bud ie demoralize them from joining these services and second harassing them at every step. Thus you will see there will be no debate on equivalence when we will throw them out of our empire.

the annonymous who replied to sayt is definitely f...

2008-08-24T15:21:28.475+05:30

the annonymous who replied to sayt is definitely from the services else he would know whats the cash equivalent is , also as far as the corruption is concerned the conditions are far better in the services . Well and if armed forces are not a bright career option then pay wise civil services are no better or only slightly better , the nation knows why a person wants to join civil services. Really wish it was a will to serve the nation !!!!!

Dear Sayt,Who is managing all these amenities?Firs...

2008-08-24T14:04:20.806+05:30

Dear Sayt,
Who is managing all these amenities?First try to weed out corruption from within forces then expect some quality.If ration is bad ;why dont you take the cash equivalent. Are we sure that Jawans' ration is not syphoned to officers' houses.

i fully agree with the above post, the reforms in ...

2008-08-24T13:30:05.500+05:30

i fully agree with the above post, the reforms in the armed forces can only be carried out by the top brass, as you all know the army is ironically a personality oriented organisation. The reforms will not take time if implimented at the highest level. Certain points to ponder.
1. measure the actual value of the so called amenities and privelleges.
2. Are they really available to maximum % of personals.
3. Govt will find it difficult to increase your pay or promotions because of the nature of organisation.
4. Govt will never refuse any additional relevent amenities.
5. Basic realities:
- Free warrants/FormD/CV
-how many get reservations.
- Free rations
- What is the quality
- CSD facility
- why goods"for sale in CSD only"
- Transport
- not really available to maximum %
- Free accomodation
- Available to what%
- waiting time
- quality
- is it really free
- Clothing
- quality
- is outfit allowance sufficient

"SOLUTION"
After the pay commission hungama is over, there is a requirement to have Armed forces reforms commission correction board of officers to address the real issues